Thursday Pizza Blogging

When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire; and in a similar vein with no further episodes of The Wire you have to blog about Top Chef 4 which debuted last night. Scrutiny tends to focus on the elimination challenges due to the high stakes involved, but let me just say that as a New Yorker I found it painful to watch multiple NYC-based chefs whose names suggested Italian-American origin cooking . . . Chicago-style deep dish pizza. I was hoping that one of them would show some pride and cook, you know, an actual pizza. But they all chose the path of appeasement. And then the judge turned out to be none other than Rocco diSpirito, himself an Italian-American from New York City who ought to know the difference between a pizza (pictured above) and a gooey mess.

Photo by Flickr user Skinnydiver used under a Creative Commons license

Comments

The pizza in NYC is wildly, wildly overrated. I don't think I've ever met anyone who, when pressed, is willing to say that the pizza they enjoyed most was from NYC. (Excluding drunks and the inbred, obviously.)

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | March 13, 2008 10:11 AM

Exhibit A in why Chicagoans find New Yorkers tiresome (pictured above).

Posted by Ryno | March 13, 2008 10:11 AM

Chicago-style deep dish "pizza" is a perfectly fine, often delicious food. I enjoy it when it's well made. It just isn't PIZZA. I don't compare them any more than I compare spaghetti carbonara with that fettucine alfredo and bacon dish -- which can be delicious, if life-threatening -- that often goes by the same name.

Posted by CJColucci | March 13, 2008 10:14 AM

I have to agree with Matt on this. I visited Chicago for the first time this winter, dutifully ate at one of the famous pizza restaurants, and thought the pizza was appallingly bad. Now, pizza from New Haven -- that's pizza!

Posted by jn | March 13, 2008 10:14 AM

You don't even have to go to New Haven; Westchester pizza is perfectly fine. In fact, most pizza within that radius from NYC (reflecting a constant rate of diffusion from the point of immigration) is good and far better than the stuff in NYC itself.

Chicago pizza on the other hand is quiche and no pizza at all.

Posted by phil | March 13, 2008 10:19 AM

Sometimes I find talk of self-obsessed, arrogant New Yorkers to be overblown. Then I read stuff actually written by New Yorkers, and I don't feel that way anymore.

Posted by Freddie | March 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Those "creations" last night made me weep. I really hate when these chefs take food that the masses consume (REAL NY or Chicago pizza), and making a horrible approximation of pizza using exotic ingredients and cooked wierdly for effect. Keep your grapes off my fucking pizza, thanks. God I would hate to see them cook a "typical American breakfast"...

Posted by So | March 13, 2008 10:24 AM

I really hate when these chefs take food that the masses consume (REAL NY or Chicago pizza), and making a horrible approximation of pizza using exotic ingredients and cooked wierdly for effect.

My brother lives in Tokyo, and what he mosts craves but can't get is good pizza. He told me that the problem with Japanese pizza is the same as the problem with American sushi-- too much stuff thrown in that has no business being in sushi/a pizza. (Mayonnaise pizza is a favorite in Tokyo, apparently.)

Posted by Freddie | March 13, 2008 10:27 AM

Heh. Your ex-TV show is dead.

Posted by nitpicker | March 13, 2008 10:29 AM

NY pizza photographs better, Chicago pizza tastes better. It's an almost perfect metaphor for the differences between the two cities.

Posted by calling all toasters | March 13, 2008 10:30 AM

Rocco agrees with Matt on his Bravotv blog:

Now, no offense directed at the lovely people of Chicago, but their pizza leaves a lot to be desired. It’s neither thin crust nor thick crust (what we call Sicilian here in NYC), it’s usually comprised of some random combo of ingredients, and it’s heavy as lead. The beautiful, defining characteristic of pizza is that it’s light, crispy, and a foil for wonderful toppings like cheese, sausage, basil, and anchovies. Deep-dish pizza leaves no room on the palate for much else but crust. You’d need to top it with a wild boar stew to create a balance of flavors and textures that would work with such a dense dough.

I'm with Rocco.

Now, the other key point here is that Chicagoans don't really eat much or care much for deep dish, in my experience. It's a problematic foodstuff that got associated with the city. Chicago's food culture is incredible, and I'm just glad that TC got the inevitable deep dish / Uno's crossover out of the way in a meaningless quickfire challenge. Now we can move on to the interesting stuff.

Posted by DivGuy | March 13, 2008 10:33 AM

Top Chef is lame; Iron Chef is somewhat better. But cooking reality competitions are just stupid. You can't smell or taste the food, so the only interest can be the soap opera aspect. I mean, do you watch American Idol with the volume on mute?

That said, Matthew's right about pizza. With apologies to Norman Maclean, I'd say the that the world is full of bad pizzas, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from New York, New York.

Posted by Al | March 13, 2008 10:34 AM

When did pizza become so regionally debatable? In college, after the bong was passed and some New York prick piped up with let's get a slice, and some Chicagoan would say something like--all you can get around here is flat New York style cardboard, I'd cringe in my Detroit-native skin and wish I had a coney dog. Like this thing defines us, like junk food makes us tough because our version is (questionably) on top? Couldn't Egyptians or Koreans make their own fine versions of the stuff? (I've had some really strange but delicious pizza with corn and whole soft shell crabs in Hong Kong, by the way.) If only people could limit the pizza fight to the really important factors like we do in DC--whose slice is the most jumbo, and whose slice was huge first!

Posted by Adrian | March 13, 2008 10:38 AM

After living in NYC for a year, I found most NYC pizza greasy and stomach-ache inducing. People who want pizza with substance don't eat NYC style pizza. I actually prefer Boston/RI style pizza made at Greek-owned restaurants, not floppy but not too thick either

Posted by Andrew | March 13, 2008 10:38 AM

Freddie wins.

Those "creations" last night made me weep. I really hate when these chefs take food that the masses consume (REAL NY or Chicago pizza), and making a horrible approximation of pizza using exotic ingredients and cooked wierdly for effect. Keep your grapes off my fucking pizza, thanks. God I would hate to see them cook a "typical American breakfast"...

Seriously. Make something well, and with good, simple ingredients. Don't make it out of exotic, out-of-place crap and then whine that you're too hip for the room when no one likes it.

Posted by TheOtherCyrus | March 13, 2008 10:40 AM

I've never had a decent New York-style pizza. It all seems to taste like greasy cardboard. The best pizza I've ever had is from my own hometown, Erie, Pennsylvania. Pizza there is sort of a mix between New Haven and Chicago. The crust is kind of doughy and chewy, not thin. It's usually served with tomato sauce. They also have things called "pepperoni balls," which I've never seen outside of Northwest PA - basically, you wad up some pepperoni, put it in some dough, and fry it. It's the most satisfying life-shortening food I've ever found.

Posted by Tel | March 13, 2008 10:42 AM

While I do prefer the shown alternative to the Chicago style pizza, it is NOT NY style. It is Neapolitan. There is no such thing as NY style pizza, unless you mean Neapolitan pizza with huge misshapen air bubbles in the crust and a lake of oil on top.

Posted by Njorl | March 13, 2008 10:46 AM

I may as well just plunge headfirst into this regional cooking conflict and make the following statement:

The best pizza is neither found in Chicago, New York, New Haven, Tokyo,...wherever. Without a doubt, he best pizza in the world is found in Detroit. Hands down. End of discussion.

There is a reason Michiganders are fat bastards.

Posted by DDP | March 13, 2008 10:49 AM

For the record, the pizza pictured in this post is from Zachary's in Oakland, CA. It is Chicago style, but it is far better than anything I've ever gotten in Chicago. The sauce is formed by chunks of fresh tomato stewed with basil. I could eat a Zachary's spinach and mushroom pizza every day for the rest of my life and be very happy. And fat.

I recently served Zachary's to a house full of people visiting from New York and Connecticut. The most commonly heard comment: "I normally don't like Chicago style pizza, but . . . ."

Since I missed Matt's annual comment-trolling post bashing college basketball, I will amend my annual Matt-bashing post thusly: everyone is an idiot about something, and for Matt it's college basketball and Chicago style pizza.

Posted by mxh | March 13, 2008 10:49 AM

I agree with #1. NY pizza is wildly overrated. I've lived in Manhattan for ten years, and I still haven't had a slice that could even hold a candle to the pizza from Popes in Saratoga Springs, New York, or BR's in Halifax, Massachusetts.

Deep-dish pizza should have a more accurate name...like stromboli or stufed bread.

Posted by Greg Johnson | March 13, 2008 10:50 AM

Tel's description sounds somewhat similar to the pizza you get in the Buffalo area (not surprising, since it's just a quick shot up "the 90," as it's called in that part of the world). I grew up on it and I love it, though it's chiefly padding to save your stomach from an all-wings meal.

NYC pizza is lovely. I've never been to New Haven, but I've greatly enjoyed the New Haven-style pizza I've had. I also love the Neopolitan style (WHAT?!? PIZZA WASN'T INVENTED IN NEW YORK?!? BLAAAARGGHH) which now abounds in my current home of DC. And yes, I like Chicago deep dish too.

IT'S PIZZA. PIZZA'S GOOD. EVERYBODY RELAX.

(I'm not a DC jumbo slice person though--sorry.)

Posted by Jake H. | March 13, 2008 10:52 AM

The thing about Chicago-style is that you really, really need to know where to go, because there's a lot that can go wrong. And even in Chicago, most deep dish places do it wrong. Even the famous ones screw up all the time. That starts with the crust, which has to maintain crispiness despite all factors working against it. And pace DiSpirito, there isn't really a random combo of ingredients. Most of the time people keep it simple.

That said, DivGuy is right--we don't eat Chicago pizza that often. That said, the best pizza I've had has probably been in Boston and its environs. All the pizza I've had in New York probably doesn't crack my top five.

Posted by Ryno | March 13, 2008 10:53 AM

That lede was awesome.

Posted by Chris_ | March 13, 2008 10:54 AM

I'm with Ryno, Freddie, and calling all toasters..

I don't understand what's so spectacular about NY style pizza. Been to NY, had pizza.. thought..hm.. thin and greasy.. not bad.. but not earth sharttering either.. In fact.. it reminded me more of the craptastic pizza that you can find at most pizza joints all over the country...

Anyway.. had a friend from NY bring back pizza from there, raving about it.. tried it.. it was okay.. didn't understand what was so incredible about it...

As for Deep Dish--it is my preferred form of pizza.. but I don't go around stating that NY obviously doesn't have real pizza since they don't have deep dish... (as for priority claims, if you're gonna pull that shit, then no one here has real pizza--go back to italy--they have the real pizza... and I've been there too and they don't have pepperoni--a travesty!)

New Yorkers who get up on their high horse about pizza really make themselves look silly... IT'S FOOD.. and people have subjective tastes.. deal with it.. If you cannot hack it when someone calls a similar food product by the same name as what you grew up with--then you have some major issues you need to deal with..

Posted by WTF | March 13, 2008 10:54 AM

Ooops. My post should have said that the Chicago-style pizza pictured in the linked embedded in this post is from Zachary's.

I am obviously an idiot about describing photos.

Posted by mxh | March 13, 2008 10:54 AM

I second mxh's shout-out to Zachary's--I've been there probably half a dozen times while visiting relatives in the Berkeley area. Definitely the best deep dish I've ever had--though I've never had it in Chi-town.

Posted by Jake H. | March 13, 2008 10:57 AM

Every time I see this pizza debate carried on, I always want to throw in for St. Louis style pizza, but I've come to realize that it is made literally nowhere else in the country, so nobody ever has any idea what I'm talking about.

Posted by Kiril | March 13, 2008 11:01 AM

WTF says: "New Yorkers who get up on their high horse about pizza really make themselves look silly... IT'S FOOD.. and people have subjective tastes.. deal with it.. If you cannot hack it when someone calls a similar food product by the same name as what you grew up with--then you have some major issues you need to deal with.."

Same thing with bagels.

Posted by Anonymous | March 13, 2008 11:03 AM

"I actually prefer Boston/RI style pizza made at Greek-owned restaurants"

Now that`s just wrong.

Posted by Taisa | March 13, 2008 11:05 AM

""I actually prefer Boston/RI style pizza made at Greek-owned restaurants"

Now that`s just wrong."

True. If we've learned anything from watching The Wire, it's not to trust the Greeks.

Posted by Anonymous | March 13, 2008 11:08 AM

In my opinion, you know a place with surprisingly bad pizza? Sicily.

Posted by Freddie | March 13, 2008 11:12 AM

In general, I side with the pro NY-style crowd in this debate. I am pleasantly surprised, however, to find mention of Pope's in Saratoga Springs. Kudos, Greg. That place is great.

Posted by drew | March 13, 2008 11:13 AM

DivGuy above hits it on the head. Deep dish pizza is not Chicago "style" it merely happens to have originated in Chicago. In fact it's a stretch to even call it a pizza. Casserole would be more like it. Tourist attraction might be even more accurate. (BTW...I'm from Chicago)

Once you strip away all of the higher end permutations the only discernible differences I've observed between the "common" pizza available in NYC and Chicago joints are: 1) NYC slices are often triangular and soft enough to fold when eaten and 2) in Chicago the pies are often stiffer and sliced into small square slices.

Once you get beyond "common" pizza all bets are off. At that point you're really debating the merits of, for example, Sicilian and Northern Italian style. Not Chicago vs. NYC.

Posted by Mhines | March 13, 2008 11:15 AM

JakeH, good to see another DC transplant! Now that I think about it I've had the same sort of pizza in Buffalo and Cleveland too. Maybe it's an Eastern Great Lakes thing?

Posted by Tel | March 13, 2008 11:16 AM

BR's isn't even the best pizza in Halifax, go to Halifax Pizza and Sub. Better yet is Nick and Angelo's, but that is a few hundred feet over the line into West Bridgewater. Farther afield are Mama Mia's and the Cape Cod.

(No reference is too obscure to blow by everybody on the web.)

Posted by snoey | March 13, 2008 11:22 AM

Let's start the state-by-state list now:

Best pizza in Kansas: Rudy's in Lawrence

Posted by nitpicker | March 13, 2008 11:26 AM

I used to work at an Uno's, so I know something about deep dish pizza. The one in the picture above doesn't look like it was cooked in a pan, but then, according to the Wikipedia article, Chicago-style pizza doesn't necessarily come in a pan. So perhaps I don't know as much as I thought.

Well anyway, I haven't worked at Uno's for months, but the deep dish pizza there was very good. It had to be cooked right, or it would come out very doughy and perhaps very messy. Then again, I also live on Long Island, and a lot of the pizza here is very messy, too.

The one thing I really remember about deep dish pizza is how bad it is for you. All Uno's eventually had a nutrition information machine up front, and once the staff had learned about the food there, we were appalled. The amount of fat in the deep dish pizza there was astonishing.

Posted by Brian | March 13, 2008 11:31 AM

God, this is making me hungry. And the pizza pictured in Matt's post looks freakin' delicious!

Posted by Rob Mac | March 13, 2008 11:31 AM

For those interested, here is the ultimate guide to regional pizzas.

I'm definitely in the New Haven camp - I dig the odd shaped pies with shredded mozz, cooked in an oven so hot the oil browns the cheese on top without burning the crust. The New York Neapolitan at places like Grimaldi's and Lombardi's is great, and the New York Style is the best for a single slice, reheated in gas metal oven to slightly crisp the crust. I never tried a Grandma pizza, but I'm looking forward to it.

Chicago pizza is more of a casserole.

Posted by Tim | March 13, 2008 11:32 AM

Sigh. New York, Chicago -- if you want to know what pizza tastes like, go to Naples. They got it right the first time around.

Posted by Bill | March 13, 2008 11:40 AM

Do you Obamatons order latte with your pizza?

Posted by Tim K | March 13, 2008 11:41 AM

you know a place with surprisingly bad pizza? Sicily.

Not a surprise, really, given Sicily's quite a distinct culinary entity from Naples.

But the Eastern Med variations that gave birth to the pizza are all interesting. Manakish zaatar, topped nan barbari, lahmacun, and so on.

Posted by pseudonymous in nc | March 13, 2008 11:41 AM

So with all the pizza drama, nobody's had time to acknowledge the Stars reference?

Posted by Simon | March 13, 2008 11:43 AM

Well, I could support either Obama or Clinton as the nominee, and get frustrated and nonplussed by the fanatics for either who think the other one is intolerable and beyond the pale of civiliztion.

Similarly, I love both Chicago- and NY-style pizza. How could anyone not?

Posted by rea | March 13, 2008 11:45 AM

"Best pizza in Kansas: Rudy's in Lawrence"

Best pizza in Michigan: Bell's in East Lansing. (I guess it's all about the college towns) Feta cheese and so much lovely grease. I've seen that sauce melt a plastic fork.

Posted by witless chum | March 13, 2008 11:46 AM

witless chum,

Bell's pizza in EL is not real pizza. It's disgusting. It's an affront to real pizza.

"Feta cheese and so much lovely grease," are not components of good pizza. It's a late night, drunk food, gut bomb, which is the antithesis of "good" pizza.

No no, the best pizza in Michigan at least, is Detroit/Sicilian style, Buddy's Pizza from Detroit.

I used to live in the Detroit Area and EL and what I wouldn't give for some Buddy's pizza. But Bell's Pizza? WTF. I don't miss that for a second.

Posted by nattyb | March 13, 2008 11:52 AM

The best pizzas were the ones you ate as a skinny kid, when you could chow endlessly with no thought whatsoever about calories.

But, yeah, the thin pie for me.

Posted by ferd | March 13, 2008 11:53 AM

This is why you'd have to kill me before I'd move to New York.

Uno's and Gino's are not great. But Lou Malnati's is descended from heaven, and I don't care what the hell Rocco says, because satisfies like Lou Mal's.

I miss it like nobody's business. NOLA is the shittiest pizza town ever. Can't get a decent hot dog either.

Posted by alli | March 13, 2008 12:02 PM

ugh, meant to say NOTHING satisfies like Lou Mal's. No more commenting at work for me!

Posted by alli | March 13, 2008 12:04 PM

I wonder if the non-NYC,SF,LA,Chi major cities are going to catch up with them anytime soon in terms of regional and ethnic foods as more info becomes available on the Internet and more people are scared off by the high costs of living.

Posted by Mike | March 13, 2008 12:15 PM

Thanks for the link, Tim! Looks like "Old Forge Style" is the closest to what I'm talking about.

Posted by Tel | March 13, 2008 12:15 PM

When my wife and I honeymooned in Spain, we discovered that pizza in Seville is terrific and very popular. Ate it several times.

Adrian, is the Detroit "coney dog" the same veal- and pork-based, somewhat peppery white hot dog we knew in Central New York as a "coney"?

Posted by CJColucci | March 13, 2008 12:16 PM

There are about four million places that make pizza in New York, so there is lots of bad pizza there. But there is also a lot of great pizza. If you walk into a random pizza joint, you have a fair chance of getting a bad slice, but if you do a bit of experimenting, it's not hard to find a place that makes an excellent pie. That is generally true for the NYC suburbs as well.

From my experience, this does not extend to other cities, even those as close to NYC as Philadelphia, where it is next to impossible to get a slice that rises above mediocre. But then again, almost every food truck in Philadelphia makes a pretty good cheesesteak and no place in New York can make one that is better than fair, so it's even.

As far as Chicago pizza is concerned, it's a totally different meal, so I don't see much point of a comparison. Pizza is generally bread, cheese and tomato sauce with some kind of meat topping. That's a combination that is pretty hard to screw up.

Posted by bill | March 13, 2008 12:18 PM

CJColucci,

A coney dog is essentially a really good chili dog from detroit. It's great for it's simplicity and it's ability to quickly satisfy one's hunger.

Posted by nattyb | March 13, 2008 12:25 PM

OK,

I am from Chicago, and lived in NYC for 6 years. I just want to say first that Unos is an abomination as far as I am concerned. The real problem here is that people always say that Chicago-style pizza is "deep dish." The real pizza that people here eat is not deep dish, it is stuffed, which is a completely different thing.

Really, nobody that I know goes out for deep-dish pizza. I had the stuff at Unos once out of town, and I was so disgusted that I was angry ... angry that they would pawn that thing off as something from Chicago.

And for the record, stuffed is way better than the greasy plate of cardboard they give you in NYC and call pizza.

Posted by Spenser | March 13, 2008 12:33 PM

Why the deep dish hate?

There is no point in even comparing the a great deep dish pizza from Chicago to a great think crust pizza from New Haven.

Posted by Jar Jar Binks | March 13, 2008 2:06 PM

Why the deep dish hate?

There is no point in even comparing a great deep dish pizza from Chicago to a great think crust pizza from New Haven.

Posted by Jar Jar Binks | March 13, 2008 2:06 PM

The fundamental difference is that New York pizza is about the cheese, and Chicago pizza is about the sauce.

And Chicago pizza is a meal, while NY pizza is more of a snack on the go.

Keep in mind that Chicago style pizza does not mean thick crust - that only goes for the Uno's Chicago Grill chain crap. Do yourself a favor and head to Lou Malnati's next time you're in the Chi. The best part of that they use real ingredients, like cherry tomatoes, rather than the canned paste that most NY pizzerias like to throw on there.

Posted by TH | March 13, 2008 2:22 PM

Dear Matt,

I used to like you and your blog, but now I hate both.

Posted by Uno | March 13, 2008 3:28 PM

Chicago-style is a delicious melange of ingredients, layered with a perfect sauce, stuffed in between a soft yet crispy crust and thick, melted cheese. It's meant to be savored and enjoyed - it's a pizza you take your time with, and enjoy every bite of.

New York-style is cheese, grease, and cardboard. It's a pizza you shove down your gullet. It's the fast-food of pizzas.

Sorry, but Chicago-style wins HANDS DOWN.

Posted by firebrand | March 13, 2008 5:36 PM

Someone knows BR's in Halifax, Mass.?! This is the single greatest moment on Yglesias' blog. An unlikely reminder of pizzas of childhoods past. How Proustian.

That place _did_ have great pizza; I can't remember if it's gone or if it just moved closer to Monponsett Pond.

Posted by Ben Cronin | March 13, 2008 6:50 PM

BR's move into the old Monponsett Inn building, and if that means anything to you you also know that I meant East, not West, Bridgewater.

To complete the circle through the other thread, Antonio's would have been my childhood fave had they had the wisdom to open many years earlier.

Posted by snoey | March 13, 2008 8:12 PM

Arg, I hate this stupid NY vs. Chicago pizza debate. It's like arguing about whether lamb tastes better than beef. They're just different foods, ok? It's possible to like both.

The stupidity of the debate is only compounded by the fact that it's nearly impossible to obtain Chicago-style stuffed pizza outside Chicago, and a number of people who claim not to like Chicago-style have never even had it.

Posted by onymous | March 14, 2008 3:31 AM

What kind of fucking pizza is that in the picture?

Where's the MEAT? (Or as the little old lady used to say, "Where's the beef"?)

If it ain't got five or more meat toppings, it ain't a pizza!

And no anchovies! I mean, no anchovies! You put anchovies on that thing, and you're in BIG TROUBLE, DUDE!

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 14, 2008 4:18 AM

"Best pizza in Kansas: Rudy's in Lawrence"
Best pizza in Michigan: Bell's in East Lansing.

Best pizza in Indiana: Bazbeaux

Also, put me on the side of the NYC v. Chicago pizza debate being silly. Both have their merits. If you don't see that, then I feel bad for you and your pathetically limited palate. :-)

Posted by Phaedrus | March 14, 2008 9:49 AM

onymous - next thing you know you'll be arguing it's possible to like both the sox and the CUBS, or the Yankees and the Mets. Man, you just don't get it.

Posted by bob | March 14, 2008 9:58 AM