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War Crimes

18 Mar 2008 02:12 pm

Listening to this winter soldier testimony doesn't sound very pleasant:

They did so with the approval of their chain of command. "It was encouraged, almost with a wink and a nudge, to carry drop weapons and shovels with us," said Jason Washborn, a Marine corporal who served three tours in Iraq between 2003 and 2006. "In case we accidentally did shoot a civilian, so we could toss weapon on the body to make [him] look like an insurgent. I was told… that if [the Iraqis] carried a shovel, or if they dig anywhere, especially near roads], then we could shoot them [on suspicion of planting roadside bombs]. So we actually carried tools in our vehicles."

Something that I think isn't asked often enough is whether the level of discipline and good behavior necessary for by-the-books counterinsurgency operations is organizationally or psychologically realistic. The whole essence of the military is that you're following orders, and you're trusting your fellow soldiers with your life. Those are principles honed over the centuries for combat, but they're not conducive to maintaining strict obedience to rules of engagement over the course of a long occupation. It's natural that American soldiers in Iraq are going to put the needs of their fellow soldiers over the needs of Iraqis, but it's also completely contrary to the idea that our occupying army is going to be some kind of humanitarian boon to the Iraqi people.

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Iraq: Millions struggle to cope with the impact of five years of war
Geneva (ICRC) – Five years after the outbreak of the war in Iraq, the humanitarian situation in most of the country is among the most critical in the world, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said in a report issued today.


Because of the conflict, millions of Iraqis have insufficient access to clean water, sanitation and health care. The current crisis is exacerbated by the lasting effects of previous armed conflicts and years of sanctions.

“Better security in some parts of Iraq must not distract attention from the continuing plight of millions of people who have essentially been left to their own devices,” said Béatrice Mégevand Roggo, the ICRC’s head of operations for the Middle East and North Africa. “Among them are displaced and refugee families, and those who have returned to their homes, children, elderly people, disabled people, households headed by women and families of detainees.”

Although security has improved in some parts of the country, Iraqis continue to be killed or injured on a daily basis in fighting and attacks. Civilians are often deliberately targeted, in complete disregard for the rules of international humanitarian law. In many families there is at least one person who is sick, injured, missing or detained, or who has been forced to flee from home and live far away.

Health care, water and sanitation services and electricity supplies remain largely inadequate. Hospitals lack qualified staff and basic drugs, and therefore struggle to provide suitable care for the injured. Many health-care facilities have not been properly maintained, and the care they provide is often too expensive for ordinary Iraqis.

The water supply has continued to deteriorate over the past year. Millions of people have been forced to rely on insufficient supplies of poor-quality water as water and sewage systems suffer from a lack of maintenance and a shortage of engineers.

The ICRC regularly provides medical assistance and drugs for hospitals and carries out important repairs to water and sanitation systems. However, this is far from sufficient to ensure that all Iraqis have adequate access to these basic services.

“To avert an even worse crisis, more attention must be paid to the everyday needs of Iraqis,” said Ms Mégevand Roggo. “Everyone should have regular access to health care, electricity, clean water and sanitation.” The ICRC also called on those involved in the conflict and those who can influence them to do everything possible to ensure that civilians, medical staff and medical facilities are not harmed. This is an obligation under international humanitarian law that applies to all parties to an armed conflict – both States and non-State actors.

What kind of propaganda is this? The media and our president told me we're always greeted with flowers!

He's a traitor - nothing to see here. Everything in Iraq is going just fine.

The US army in Iraq uses the terror tactics of dictatorships. Nothing new to see here.

Our wealthy elites carry out the occupation of Iraq with the same concern for justice with which they carry out the occupation of America.

Just ask the millions of US citizens locked up in our prisons-- the dead in our cemetaries can't talk.

Surely Washborn is overdue for the Beauchamp treatment from war supporters?

When you get right down to it, in a long enough occupation, the needs of the occupier's soldiers and the needs of the locals conflict, with the occupier's needs triumphing, leading to the whole raison d'etre of the occupation to be undermined.

1. All military vehicles carry tools. Most vehicles carry a shovel and mattock. Iraq was a humanitarian disaster before we ever showed up. Remember the "starving babies" that Madeline Albright discounted? Beauchamp was a proven liar. Millions of Americans are in prison because they committed crimes. Do I need to dredge up the personal and property crime statistics? The "occupiers" in Iraq are making huge sacrifices for the "locals" on a daily basis.

2. The overall professional conduct of the US military in Iraq is unmatched by anyone in history. Show me any other country in history that has held their military to such a high standard in these type of operations.

3. The US military in Iraq is hands down the most professional, well trained, well equipped and well disciplined force we have ever fielded. Given the difficulty of a counter-insurgency campaign, I challenge anyone to find a military in history that could have done a more professional job.

4. The US military in Iraq is doing conducting itself in the most professional manner that is "humanly" possible. Military members are not automatons beamed down from another planet but represent a broad cross section of American society. They make professional and personal mistakes. Overall, the military does a good job of policing itself.

5.

Re Don Williams

"Just ask the millions of US citizens locked up in our prisons-- the dead in our cemetaries can't talk."

Right, such find upstanding fellows like Charles Manson.

SLC, you are an insane hate-monger.

Re SLC's comment "Right, such find upstanding fellows like Charles Manson "
-----------
Not all of our Charlie Manson's get caught, SLC.

Especially if they go into politics or journalism.

Compare the number of dead bodies bought into Fort Dix from Iraq with the number found on Charlie Manson's ranch.

Re danceswithgoats "Iraq was a humanitarian disaster before we ever showed up. Remember the "starving babies" that Madeline Albright discounted? "
-------------------
Actually, those 600,000 children died from having to drink polluted water. After we bombed their water treatment plants and then blocked Iraq's importation of water purification chemicals with sanctions.

But danceswithgoats has a valid point: Bill Clinton and Hillary killed far more Iraqi civilians than George W Bush or Saddam Hussein.

Which explains why the Democratic leadership supported George W's Big Lie on Sept 12, 2001: I.e, that Sept 11 occurred because "they hate our freedom".

Neither party could admit to the American people the whoring that provoked that attack. So in a mutual coverup, they all gathered together, stood in front of the AMerican Flag, and sang "God Bless America".

Kinda clever of Karl Rove to make the Democrats into accomplices.

Because once that Big Lie was established, it became the basis for everything that followed: scraping the Bill of Rights, $Trillions on Defense, invasion of Iraq,etc. And having helped create a Myth out of guilt, the Democratic Leadership had no choice but to support the consequences flowing from that Myth.

Re danceswithgoats:

1) Stating a conclusion is not the same thing as proving one.

2) When I first arrived in Vietnam way back in 1968 a sergeant told us "If it ever gets so bad that you have to kill one of them, for god's sake remember to plant a grenade on the body so you can claim self-defense." I never saw a GI strike a Vietnamese, but did rapes, murders, tortures, etc. happen? It's war, folks. That's why they call it Hell.

Don Williams thinks that I have a valid point! I might need to re-think my comments. Of course if Saddam had not invaded Kuwait and complied with the UN he might not have had sanctions applied to his country. He paid for his crimes.

Alan - I grant you your #1 but these threads are pretty slim on proven conclusions. I will underwrite the "War is all hell" point to a degree but professional militaries have a personal, professional and legal obligation to behave in a disciplined manner.

It's war, folks. That's why they call it Hell.

Exactly. That's why we shouldn't go around starting wars.

"To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Something that I think isn't asked often enough is whether the level of discipline and good behavior necessary for by-the-books counterinsurgency operations is organizationally or psychologically realistic.

Yeah, hey, maybe you should've thought of this back when you were waxing enthusiastic about the Iraq social engineering project.

Those of us who'd been in the service could've told you that taking a bunch of 19-year-old high school graduates, most of them from the more provincial parts of the country, dropping them into a profoundly alien culture, and then expecting them to act as de facto street-level diplomats, was a little -- ahem -- surreal. This is NOT to disparage those kids. The fact is that they were dumped into a situation way beyond anything they were prepared for. They were dumped into the fiasco at the urging of Yglesias and people very much like him, who would never in a million years consider community college, let alone military service. Did MY ever once rub elbows with the kids who were supposed to carry out his grand project?

I cannot fathom how anyone with such a blinkered view and narrow life experience should think he's qualified to write a book about worldly matters.

sglover - Every time MY writes about military topics I cringe. I wish he would stop.

1) We do not, and have not for some years, occupied Iraq. We are there in support of the only freely elected and representative government in the Arab world.

2) Anyone with an IQ larger than their age should know that Saddam Hussein started the war with the invasion, rape, and occupation of UN member state and US ally Kuwait.

The nitwits who wanted to give Saddam Hussein a free pass for launching wars of aggression that killed over a million people, genocide in his own country, torching oilfields, rocketing supertankers, and generally running one of the worst tyrannies of the last century, have an incredible nerve. It's okay to kill a million innocents with sanctions, but it's a war crime to try to win the war we were dragged into in 1991.

You people are doomed to permanent political futility. You can't fool all the people all the time.

We do not, and have not for some years, occupied Iraq. We are there in support of the only freely elected and representative government in the Arab world.

Yes, in much the same way that the Soviet Union supported fraternal Czechoslovakia against the imminent danger of counterrevolution.

You people are doomed to permanent political futility. You can't fool all the people all the time.

Yeah, I'm in complete fear of the rising popularity of your brand of bullshit. Hee-Hee.

I'll say one thing though, I listened to the original winter soldier from Vietnam before I heard this and I guess we have come somewhere.

What I heard from Iraq was a litany of crazy ROI where you are supposed to shoot old women carrying tomatoes if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time (with a CO doing the job when the guy balked), insane orders (fire on a car matching the description of every taxi in the city so half the cars in a town of 10000 on the road were destroyed at once), beatings, etc...

Vietnam winter soldier was about skinning people, raping them with e-tools, mass murder and things so insane it makes Iraq look good.

"You people are doomed to permanent political futility. You can't fool all the people all the time.

Posted by robert powell | March 18, 2008 5:34 PM"

Project much? You haven't been able to convince anyone of your bullshit. The more time passes and the more evidence that comes out that your bullshit is all based on lies, the harder you dig your heels in. There are psychological terms for this, you know, and none of them are good.

I have never gotten over how the political right has adopted the anti-Iraqi sanctions cause. Only us loony lefties even raised the issue back in the 90's, but now you can hardly get through an Iraq comment thread (okay, I exaggerate) without some prowar guy weeping over all the Iraq babies that died.

I wish we were an occupying army in Iraq and acted like one

If we suspect Iraqis are planting bombs, shoot them. Maybe the bomb planters will think twice. If only we conducted ourselves properly instead of being wimps saying "we understand if al-quaidi shoot at us, we'll elect Osama Hussein Obama to make you happy!"

And what an oppressive country we are, where Don William's right to speech is stifled.

I wish we were an occupying army in Iraq and acted like one

If we suspect Iraqis are planting bombs, shoot them. Maybe the bomb planters will think twice. If only we conducted ourselves properly instead of being wimps saying "we understand if al-quaidi shoot at us, we'll elect Osama Hussein Obama to make you happy!"

And what an oppressive country we are, where Don William's right to speech is stifled.

The nitwits who wanted to give Saddam Hussein a free pass for launching wars of aggression that killed over a million people, genocide in his own country, torching oilfields, rocketing supertankers, and generally running one of the worst tyrannies of the last century, have an incredible nerve. It's okay to kill a million innocents with sanctions, but it's a war crime to try to win the war we were dragged into in 1991.

Preach it, brother! Right fucking on! I always said we should've brought that starry-eyed dreamer Rumsfeld up on charges 25 years ago!

The overall professional conduct of the US military in Iraq is unmatched by anyone in history. Show me any other country in history that has held their military to such a high standard in these type of operations.

Show me another country in history that has not ended up committing atrocities in "these type of operations" no matter how high their standards of conduct. The problem is not the army's professionalism. The problem is "these type of operations."

"It was encouraged, almost with a wink and a nudge, to carry drop weapons and shovels with us."

That's out-of-bounds! Back home in the 'hood only watch commanders are allowed to carry "throw-downs."

"You lie down with dogs, you end up with fleas."

That's the nature of the military.

I saw it in Vietnam, it's obvious that it's happening in Iraq.

I don't care how "professional" you think the US military is - it isn't. It's a bunch of morons - and the proof is that they put themselves in harms way on orders from people they don't know on the basis of intelligence they don't know for reasons they don't understand.

Then, when they're set upon by a resistance, they start shooting everybody in sight. I don't know how many stories I've read of these idiots in Iraq opening up on entire streets because they took some incoming fire or a bomb went off. I remember one story two units of these morons were shooting AT EACH OTHER because a power transformer blew down the street!

Professional? Excuse me while I laugh my ass off.

The US military in Iraq is by most estimates directly responsible for the deaths of at least 300,000 Iraqi civilians. This comes from dropping bombs in urban neighborhoods - a war crime, shooting people in cars and on the street due to loose rules of engagement - a war crime, and shooting up neighborhoods with excessive force after an incident - a war crime. Not to mention mass sweeps arresting everybody on a street - a war crime, and poor prison conditions - a war crim, and torture - a war crime.

The US military engages in war crimes as a profession. Anybody who says different is an idiot or a lying sack of shit or both.

The correct conduct in war is to shoot only those who are actually attacking you. Which means the basic rule one of the use of any weapon in a combat situation: shoot only when you have identified your target and can shoot without harming anyone else.

That means you don't blow up a building when you have a sniper. You go in and kill that sniper.

You don't blow up a building when you're taking fire from that building. You go in and kill those shooting at you.

If you don't have the balls to ENGAGE THE ENEMY face-to-face (or better, from behind his back, which is more efficient), get the fuck out of the service.

This is an insurgency. This is not WWII tank battles in the street. You have civilians all over the place. You can't hose down a building with a 30mm chain gun and expect not to kill civilians. You can't fire Hellfire missiles into a building whose occupants you don't know and expect not to kill civilians. You can't fire tank shells into a building whose occupants you don't know and expect not to kill civilians. You can't open fire on a car a hundred feet away that can't see your signal and expect not to kill civilians.

Not to mention that even setting up a checkpoint is brain dead for an urban insurgency! Why not just paint a sign on yourself: "American moron! Blow me up!"

The Rules of Engagement in Iraq are bullshit. They're intended to minimize US casualties while maximizing civilian casualties - which is a war crime.

Everybody who came up with the Rules of Engagement for Iraq should be arrested, tried for war crimes, and sent to Leavenworth Military Prison. Alternatively, they should be cashiered out and sent to some remedial school for the retarded.

sglover--I'm no fan of Rummie, but the charges should apply to GHW Bush above all. He's the guy who decided it would be too hard to win the war when we had 500,000 pairs of boots on the ground and the international wind at our backs. Instead he told the Iraqis to "rise up", then watched while hundreds of thousands of them were slaughtered. Kicking the can down the road with UN sanctions "worked" to kill about another million innocents while tightening the regime's grip on power and enriching its collaborators.

It's astonishing the extent to which people who were okay with that now accuse the US of war crimes and compare it to the Soviet Union. Talk about projection...

sglover--I'm no fan of Rummie, but the charges should apply to GHW Bush above all. He's the guy who decided it would be too hard to win the war when we had 500,000 pairs of boots on the ground and the international wind at our backs. Instead he told the Iraqis to "rise up", then watched while hundreds of thousands of them were slaughtered. Kicking the can down the road with UN sanctions "worked" to kill about another million innocents while tightening the regime's grip on power and enriching its collaborators.

It's astonishing the extent to which people who were okay with that now accuse the US of war crimes and compare it to the Soviet Union. Talk about projection...

sglover--I'm no fan of Rummie, but the charges should apply to GHW Bush above all. He's the guy who decided it would be too hard to win the war when we had 500,000 pairs of boots on the ground and the international wind at our backs. Instead he told the Iraqis to "rise up", then watched while hundreds of thousands of them were slaughtered. Kicking the can down the road with UN sanctions "worked" to kill about another million innocents while tightening the regime's grip on power and enriching its collaborators.

In the course of his lifelong ticket-punching, shape-shifting, "tell what scutwork to do and I'll do it" "career", Bush the Elder racked up all sorts of "accomplishments" that, in a just world, would have put his head in a noose. And this was years before he finally landed the Oval Office gig.

So we more or less agree, but I think Bush was selling out his office and his country long before he got to be El Jefe.

I guess "we more or less agree" alright. Good.

Pappy Bush was notorious as a hack inside the CIA when he was Director, and was both dirty and lying about it during the Iran/Contra debacle. Guess it runs in the family.


Comments closed April 01, 2008.

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