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If At First You Don't Succeed, Try Again With Bigger Countries

10 Apr 2008 08:28 am

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Todd Gitlin alerts us to a new Robert Kagan book excerpt in The New Republic. Kagan's idea, it seems, is that since neoconservatism has proven such a complete and utter failure as an approach to the challenge of transnational terrorism and WMD proliferation, we ought to use use it as a guide for dealing with Russia and China instead. If you're a sociopath like Kagan, a renewal of Cold War-style conflict with other great powers is good news because, as Todd says, it serves the goal of "conjuring a proper target for unilateralist belligerence."

A decent, humane person begins looking at this question by recognizing that a renewal of great power competition would be an enormous disaster. Arms races are a large waste of resources that could otherwise be invested productively. China's integration into the global economy has brought some benefits to rich world consumers and enormous benefits to Chinese people. What's more, though China has been in many ways a bad actor with regards to human rights issues in the developing world, it's also true that the end of the Cold War has had enormous humanitarian benefits for the developing world in the form of a drastic reduction in the level of proxy conflicts.

To make a long story short, nobody can say for sure that a hostile US-China relationship can be avoided. But the costs of a cycle of hostility would be enormous. The sensible thing to do is not, in the first instance, to begin "preparing" for a cycle in ways that would likely make such a cycle inevitable. Rather, the sensible thing to do is to try to avoid entering the downward spiral through what, in Heads in the Sand, I call an effort to keep up the work of constructing a rule-governed world order oriented around cooperation.

At the end of the day, though the American and Chinese government are animated by different kinds of values, our interests are largely compatible. Both of us have a lot to gain through cooperation on security problems like climate change, transnational terrorism, and WMD proliferation as well as through continued trade and investment. What we need to work on, in the first instance, is devising rules of the road that secure our main interests but that are also compatible with a reasonable conception of Chinese interests. This doesn't serve the neoconservative craving for the dubious glories of advocating that others engage in combat, but it will help us build a more prosperous, safer, and ultimately freer world.

U.S. Navy photo by Lt. Denver Applehans

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Comments (32)

What's more, though China has been in many ways a bad actor with regards to human rights issues in the developing world

Well, I realize that Matt is just channeling the DC Pundit Consensus here, but is there actually any real evidence of this?

China has (mostly business) dealings with some bad Third World countries. We have business dealings with some bad Third World countries (many of which overlap with those China deals with).

Are "our" bad Third World countries better or worse than China's bad Third World countries. Offhand, I really can't say. But since Matt's such a great foreign policy expert that he's even published a book, maybe he should provide a list and explain.

But just mouthing the pious "Freedom for Tibet" type slogans of Matt's parents' nitwit Hollywood celebrity friends is pretty ridiculous.

Great Power competition has been a facet of human history since time immemorial—the only reason it doesn't exist right now is that there is no credible competitor (yet) to America. So while I deplore Kagan's freedom and rights approach, I don't think there's anything wrong with viewing both Russia and China with growing suspicion and alarm, and strategically thinking about how to handle their rise to what will without doubt be an adversarial role.

Are "our" bad Third World countries better or worse than China's bad Third World countries. Offhand, I really can't say.

I can. At least we aren't hanging out with North Korea.

Global instability and Cold War-type hostilities hold forth very beneficial rewards for sitting administrations. Eventually criticism of the most outlandishly expensive and complicated weapon systems will bog down their approval process in Congress. You can't very well tell the public WE don't need them. Their sale to overseas buyers is very lucrative to Boeing, TRW, Siemens and the rest of the merchants of death. A lack of customers in our own military crimps R&D on those fighter jets with a range of 2,000 miles and a payload capable of wiping out small nations. Better to get them from the drawing board to production (and the attendant campaign contributions for greasing the skids to get it all done?) by having committments from a few not-too-nutty foreign buyers guaranteeing their purchase. Peace time diversion of defense expenditures to the common folk is for sissies, hippies, faggots, Greens and Commies (er, Democrats). And guess what, all you have to do is convince those same common folk they're not one of the aforementioned vermin and need to be with the in-crowd. Jethro will pay double for beer and let his kids go shoeless so long as a few of his high school buddies are somewhere killing brown or black people, carpet bombing Muslims or lynching gays and raping women in the barracks and latrines of far flung military bases. Life is good.

The sensible thing to do in the first instance is not to start a cold war with China; it's to buy Matt's book. We owe it to the children.

Why does anyone ever listen to Fred Kagan at all any more? On March 24th, only a day before the fighting broke out in Basra, he was telling us this:

The first thing I want to say is that: The Civil War in Iraq is over. And until the American domestic political debate catches up with that fact, we are going to have a very hard time discussing Iraq on the basis of reality.

Thirteen days later he was on On Sunday he was on NPR, putting the McCain spin on the Basra fight:

And it’s not the way — as Senator McCain rightly said, the side that’s winning a conflict like this doesn’t generally call a timeout and say, “Hey, you know, we’ve had enough. Thank you very much.” And it’s not the way it’s playing on the Iraqi street.

On NPR, no one bothered to ask him about his condescending, insulting, and completely wrong statement of only thirteen days earlier, and apparently no one confronted him about the falsehood of his new statement either.

I don't claim to have a perfect understanding of Iraqi politics, but it's pretty clear that Kagan not only is ignorant, but also is a shameless liar. His career should be over by now, but he keeps getting TV and radio time because he has muscle behind him.

After five years of lies and failure, with Bush's approval rating now at about 30%, the big media are almost unshaken. They're still pumping out the Republican Pravda misinformation, and their memory apparently doesn't go back even two weeks. The Republican monopoly isn't complete, and you will sometimes see accurate information mixed in with the lies, but that was true of Pravda too.

People here are scornful of conspiracy theories, but when Kagan appears again immediately after completely disgracing himself (and not for the first time), what non-paranoid explanation is there?

Why does anyone ever listen to Fred Kagan at all any more? On March 24th, only a day before the fighting broke out in Basra, he was telling us this:

The first thing I want to say is that: The Civil War in Iraq is over. And until the American domestic political debate catches up with that fact, we are going to have a very hard time discussing Iraq on the basis of reality.

Thirteen days later he was on On Sunday he was on NPR, putting the McCain spin on the Basra fight:

And it’s not the way — as Senator McCain rightly said, the side that’s winning a conflict like this doesn’t generally call a timeout and say, “Hey, you know, we’ve had enough. Thank you very much.” And it’s not the way it’s playing on the Iraqi street.

On NPR, no one bothered to ask him about his condescending, insulting, and completely wrong statement of only thirteen days earlier, and apparently no one confronted him about the falsehood of his new statement either.

I don't claim to have a perfect understanding of Iraqi politics, but it's pretty clear that Kagan not only is ignorant, but also is a shameless liar. His career should be over by now, but he keeps getting TV and radio time because he has muscle behind him.

After five years of lies and failure, with Bush's approval rating now at about 30%, the big media are almost unshaken. They're still pumping out the Republican Pravda misinformation, and their memory apparently doesn't go back even two weeks. The Republican monopoly isn't complete, and you will sometimes see accurate information mixed in with the lies, but that was true of Pravda too.

People here are scornful of conspiracy theories, but when Kagan appears again immediately after completely disgracing himself (and not for the first time), what non-paranoid explanation is there?

John,

You're confusing Kagans, although it's an understandable mistake since they all seem to be sociopaths. The Kagan MY is referencing here is Robert Kagan, brother of sociopath know-nothing Fred Kagan, and son of establishment suck-up Donald Kagan. Robert Kagan is also not to be confused with Robert Kaplan - neocon journalist and author of Balkan Ghosts, the book that was so influential on Hilary Clinton's world view. The Kagans are so deeply rooted in our establishment through marriages (Robert's wife is ambassador to NATO), educational ties and business connections that it would take major surgery to remove them from our media landscape. The best thing to do, as Matt does, is to keep using that sociopath tag and hope it sticks. It's quite accurate.

1) I think Edward Gibbon had the best idea in "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". Gibbon argued that global empires are bad because they end up ruled by one man and everyone --high or low --becomes his prisoner. With nowhere that one can flee to for escape.

2) Nor do such empires provide peace -- as in the Roman empire, civil wars frequently break out when the current emperor dies as various factions struggle to become the next emperor.

Because of the constant fear of assassination, the emperor inevitably becomes a tyrant. The history of the Roman Empire shows how total power and fear bring on a form of insanity. witness Nero, Caligula,etc.

3) Gibbon argued that human freedom is best ensured by a network of independent states as has long prevailed in Europe. If a tyrant arose in one state, people could flee to neighboring states and start new lives. Perhaps work to overthrow the tyrant. And the other states would act to restrain the tyrant.

4) But such a system requires a degree of economic independence as well -- some degree of autarky, NOT globalization.

5) Unfortunately, when the Soviet Union fell in 1989, our wealthy elites saw themselves as the new Caesars -- and went on an imperialistic money hunt that may yet destroy this country -- and will certainly destroy our Republic.

6) They did not even stop to consider whether their greed would damage this country -- in the same way that a laboratory rat does not hesitate to lunge for food.

7) That is why we should strip our ruling elites of their wealth and their power -- redistribute both down to the people who have to fight this country's wars and who suffer from this country's mistakes.

You cannot have a prosperous, well-governed Republic with a heavy concentration of wealth and deep corruption which ensures that wealth buys a heavy concentration of self-serving political power as well.

"The best thing to do, as Matt does, is to keep using that sociopath tag and hope it sticks."

In this case, I have a preference for the old standard, "psychopath". It just sounds scarier and more ominous to me...

matt foley:

I can. At least we aren't hanging out with North Korea.

Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with China *bordering* North Korea? Or the Chinese having a large ethnic-Korean population of their own on that border? Or the Chinese continually getting a tide of North Korean illegal immigrants/refugees? Or the Chinese being worried about North Korean blowing up and getting swamped by a horde of millions of refugees?

Strangely enough, you can probably make a case that over the last decade our own good friend democratic South Korea has given more support to the North Koreans than China has...and for mostly the same sorts of reasons.

Since you're so angry at the Chinese "hanging out" with North Korea, maybe you can explain how they can move North Korea somewhere else, maybe like to Africa or the Balkans. I'm sure they'd give you a medal for this...

Re vanya's comment "The Kagans are so deeply rooted in our establishment through marriages (Robert's wife is ambassador to NATO), educational ties and business connections that it would take major surgery to remove them from our media landscape "
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Hmmm. I count four.

That's less than the number of rounds in a 45 automatic magazine.

Damn.

What on earth has Russia actually done to get the US establishment so riled up? Yes, they don't want the US to build military bases in lands that were under Russian control for the past two centuries. Is that really unreasonable? Does Kagan really believe that a purely Democratic Russia wouldn't act the same way? Most Russians would probably like to have Crimea back under Russian control - wouldn't that be the purest expression of Democracy if Russia went ahead and did that?

No, Russia has not become Switzerland - it's not a poster child for human rights. But have some perspective. Anyone transported magically to 2008 from 1980 or even 1985 would be completely gobsmacked by all the changes that have taken place. Russia is more free today than it has ever been in its entire history - including the 1905-1913 Silver Age. I would also argue that Russia is more free today than it was under Yeltsin - there is greater government accountability today, more transparency in contract enforcement, and greater freedom to travel. The press restrictions and intimidation of journalists are bad, but somewhat counterbalanced by the increasing access Russians have to the internet. It's nothing like the Soviet era. Russia isn't going to change overnight but the overall trends are still good, be patient.

You might think that neocons would also appreciate the fact that Russia and Israel are now closer than ever, especially since Israel is probably nearly 20% Russian by this point. Creating tension with Russia is really just insane, and in no way in America's interests.

Vanya left out Lou Kagan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Kagan

The Chinese government, when you get right down to it, has two compelling agenda items, and only two. There is a third, but it's well down the list from the first two.

1) Stay in power. The will to power in the people at the top of the Chinese government is beyond calculation. They make Bush and Cheney look like high-school bullies. These guys have been pulling the levers of power for 80 years, passing things on to groomed successors like Roman emperors (on a good day).

2) Staying in power is completely dependent on a quiescent population. And the only way to keep the population quiescent is to keep them fed, sheltered, and, most important, WORKING.

War of any kind has many risks for the Chinese, but it would reduce their population, in the collective mind of the leadership, nearly always a good thing, as long as it's not them and their kids, and it won't be.

So, they might have a much more compelling reason to make war, in various places. They have the manpower, and the will to use that manpower.

My biggest fear is a showdown over energy resources with China that results in a nuclear exchange. And if you think that's far-fetched, just look over the two agenda items, think about the implications, and tell me again it's far-fetched.

Oh, the third item. The Chinese government wants validation and legitimacy from the rest of the world, but they're not about to sacrifice the main items to get that.

If you're a sociopath like Kagan

Typical liberal sociopathophobia.

My biggest fear is a showdown over energy resources with China that results in a nuclear exchange. And if you think that's far-fetched, just look over the two agenda items, think about the implications, and tell me again it's far-fetched.

It's far-fetched.

Where does Matt find these loons?

(Hey LL, tell me, what are the last couple of books you've read on Chinese politics?)

I won't comment at length here, since I already commented on Todd Gitlin's post. But a lot of people - Kagan apparently included - miss the Cold War. They spent their entire childhoods, and much of their adult lives, living under a bipolar world contest. It's all they understand. The post-Cold War era confuses them, and they want the old system back.

Re LL's comment "My biggest fear is a showdown over energy resources with China that results in a nuclear exchange "
--------------
1) I concur. China has limited oil deposits and is having to import oil already. Her need will be desperate as she modernizes further (1 billion bicycles replaced by 1 billion compact cars).

That's why Bush's military move into the Caspian Sea area is dangerous -- pisses off the Russians as well.

2) China has talked with Kazakhstan about a long pipeline to tranfer Caspian oil to China. But Such a pipeline would be vulnerable to sabotage.

3) Another route would be transport by sea. A pipeline through Iran to the Indian OCean would be short and Iran has enough strength to protect it. From there, Chinese tankers going around India, Thailand and Vietnam could be protected by Chinese quiet diesel/electric submarines. (Short range but fine for coastal waters. ) But China needs an Indian Ocean base -- hence, her support for the Burma regime.

4) Plus a heavy Chinese naval presence on the Iran southern coast -- a naval fortress -- at the outlet of the Persian Gulf would be a knife across our carotid.

Since it could not only protect Chinese oil tankers but could also kill the long string of tankers carrying oil from IRaq and Kuwait to the US. The mere threat might even pressure OUR puppet government in Baghdad to sell some oil to the Chinese.

One can see how that situation could spark war between the US and China -- it like two gangs using the same nightclub. Sooner or later, someone is going to bump someone else going through the front door.

5) Of course, China may have the intelligence to do what our government has been too stupid to do -- invest in alternative energy technology like electric cars fueled by advanced new nuclear plant designs. Then , as Peak Oil intensifies, China could grow rich selling products based on such technology to a desperate USA.

That's the result of voting for morons like George W Bush who don't understand the difference between $5 Trillion wasted on consumption versus $5 Trillion INVESTED.

6) Of course, roughly Half? of the world's remaining reserves of uranium are in Rupert Murdoch's backyard -- north of Melbourne Australia.

Matt,

I disagree with Kagan, but he's the smartest of the neocons, and he's not a "sociopath."

It's not just Cold War nostalgia. Donald Kagan was born in Lithuania. A lot of Russian Jewish emigres are, understandably, not all that fond of Russia in the first place. And Putin is exactly the sort of Great Russian bureaucrat type that I could easily imagine organizing a pogrom or managing a labor camp, and the anti-semitic nationalist groups who rally to his cause don't make him look any better. Still, if the Kagans were the wise far-sighted thinkers they claim to be, they would try to rise above their personal prejudices and see that the Tsar is dead and Russia is not Weimar Germany.

It's actually better to focus our paranoia on Russia and China. For the same reason that when my wife wants to go shopping, I encourage her to go to Saks or Niemans. We don't buy anything, because we can't afford anything.

So, think of the Russia-China belligerence as fantasy window-shopping. Hopefully, we'll never actually try to buy it, tempting as it may be. Unfortunately, in the case of Iraq, the neo-cons stumbled into the Walmart of aggressive wars. They liked what they saw, they thought they could afford it, and so they maxed out their credit cards to buy it all up. But, the cheap shit doesn't work, unfortunately, and now we're stuck with the bill *and* a fucked-up empire that is out of warranty.

@ Don Williams: Spot on. The citizens don't run things in our culture, and perhaps in any large country. An interwoven communality of interests among those who have ownership, control and influence does. To them, the rest of us are just consumers of whatever product, or politics, they can profit from.

In one sense it matters a great deal who becomes President next year -- on another level, it makes little difference; the systemic issues of wealth, corruption and power can't be 'solved' by a Democratic President, and yet another Republican will only increase the pace of damage.

During the Depression, America's elite were primarily concerned about preserving the capital in inherited fortunes and maintaining their lifestyles. While it may have been a tragedy to the Biddles or Saltonstalls or Crowninshields to close up a vacation home for a time, and fire a number of servants, the rest of the country was struggling, frightened, and "economically dislocated".

But, whether through a combination of the public works of the New Deal, the writings and speeches of the American Left, or simple compassion towards others -- there was a change of consciousness among a majority of 'ordinary' Americans. The ideas that created public institutions and social safety nets were profoundly progresive, and collective -- they were a different vision of the future than the elites wanted to maintain, and the American Right has been trying to rip them out by the roots ever since.

Something had changed in the public mindset about the relationship between citizens and government, what the government's responsibilities are to us, and what the future should be like. The experiences of the Second World War only underscored that; in a sense it was what we were fighting for.

It's odd that until the Enlightenment, which ultimately produced a change in thought and practice that fired the American Revolution -- it was always an accepted feature of human societies that an interconnected class of wealth, political power and a hereditary right to rule was simply "how things were". Our Revolution was a change in consciousness about those assumptions, our priorities, and a vision of the future.

Our elites and their surrogates can only offer solutions which preserve their own self-interests. Our government is badly broken; our society is becoming more stratified to the benefit of a relatively small section of the population. To counter it all, the rest of us need a sea-change in our point of view, as citizens and people, similar to that of the 1930's. It's a place to start -- the alternative is More Of The Same, and worse.

I'm going to get Matt's book, because I suspect I agree with a lot of it.

I'm an old-fashioned type of one-worlder internationalist who believes the chief goal of our foreign policy, especially now in this period of opportunity, should be to participate in the construction of a durable and efficacious global system of governance. The chief aims of such a system should be the preservation of peace and stability, the maintenance of global law and order, the promotion of intercourse among nations, and the prevention and resolution of conflict. Accepting these as one's chief aims means accepting the fact that other states participating in this order will have very different forms of government, different ideas about the best way to manage a society and different ways of treating their people.

The key motivating idea behind this form of internationalism is that the benefits of the preservation of global peace, especially the prevention of military conflict among technologically advanced and industrially potent states, far outweigh the harms caused by the toleration of sub-optimal systems of government. Another motivating idea is that good political and social ideas tend to spread of their own accord, and are quickly copied, especially in conditions of peace that are in themselves very propitious to the spread of ideas and innovation. This outlook on the dynamics of social progress and their roots in peace, is opposed to that of many romantics, crusaders and militarists who associate peace with stasis, and believe only war drives profound change. In my view, the chief consequences of war, and the constant preparations for war, are to strengthen the hands and voices of authoritarian and conservative personalities and political leaders. Warlike times promote tradition, hierarchy and authoritarian government. One weakens the positions of authoritarians, wherever they are located, by denying them stark and credible examples of foreign threats to point to, since they exploit these threats to give weight to their arguments and strengthen their positions.

This form of internationalism used to be a very strong current of thought among western intellectuals, who believed that the chief lesson of the insanely destructive and barbarous world wars of the first half of the 20th century, and then the proliferation of nuclear weapons, was that saving humanity from the scourge of war was job one. This current of thought has unfortunately, to my mind, been displaced by a form of liberal internationalism that is much more focussed on combining the power of "good" countries to spread their system of government to the "bad" countries, and is insufficiently mindful of the human tendencies toward savagery and irrationality, and the need to work tirelessly to keep the beasts in their cages.

"This form of internationalism used to be a very strong current of thought among western intellectuals, who believed that the chief lesson of the insanely destructive and barbarous world wars of the first half of the 20th century, and then the proliferation of nuclear weapons, was that saving humanity from the scourge of war was job one. This current of thought has unfortunately, to my mind, been displaced by a form of liberal internationalism that is much more focussed on combining the power of "good" countries to spread their system of government to the "bad" countries, and is insufficiently mindful of the human tendencies toward savagery and irrationality, and the need to work tirelessly to keep the beasts in their cages.

Posted by Dan Kervick | April 10, 2008 11:38 AM"

Very true. If it was within the capability of our military to turn all dictatorships into democracies rather painlessly and quickly, it would be immoral to not follow that course of action. However, the neocons, as only semi-reconstructed Trotskyites, never really understood how the scarcity of resources and power undermines the prospects for world revolution. We used to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time - build an internationalist world order and help move some countries towards democracy - without fucking up both simultaneously. We can no longer do this with idiots in charge. Until we learn that another country's democracy belongs to that country's people and isn't just a tool for our own hegemony and short-term goals and that democracy has to grow organically out of the society of its own nation, our attempts to force democracy on others will be futile. It's also one thing to bring countries, especially in Eastern Europe, into our security framework who wish to be so they have some form of protection (both militarily and to maintain what democratic gains they've made) from Russian influence. It's another thing to go around pissing off Russia just so we can feel good about ourselves while gaining nothing of value.

One can evaluate China's policies independently of one's opinion of the Bush administration. China has an utterly amoral foreign policy, and they tend to view regimes shunned by the rest of the planet as business opportunities. Noted examples include Burma and Zimbabwe. A belligerent and hostile policy towards China is certainly foolish, but Chinese foreign policy has made things much worse for a lot of people, and sugar-coating it is not intellectually honest. Bad deeds by Bush do not erase bad deeds by others. In fact, war crimes by Bush do not erase bad deeds by others.

I agree with LL Don Williams in that a military conflict with China in the not very distant future is not at all far-fetched. But I agree wholeheartedly with Matt that the response to this reasonable fear should not be a program of aggressive preparation for that possible war along with a Cold War-style chilling of Sino-US relations. Such a policy will only be self-fulfilling. And we certainly don't need shortsighted, demagogic politicians ratcheting up the rhetoric against China and Russia for domestic political gain.

We should be working with China and others on a treaty-based system to better manage the global energy economy, pour petrodollars back into global research and development on alternative energy systems, and prevent the pressures of rising demand and dwindling supply from pushing China and the US into increasingly pitched competition. If we continue along the current path - which is essentially global gang rivalry with the big players competing for clients, markets and territory, war will eventually occur.

The Chinese government, when you get right down to it, has two compelling agenda items, and only two. There is a third, but it's well down the list from the first two.

1) Stay in power. The will to power in the people at the top of the Chinese government is beyond calculation. They make Bush and Cheney look like high-school bullies. These guys have been pulling the levers of power for 80 years, passing things on to groomed successors like Roman emperors (on a good day).

2) Staying in power is completely dependent on a quiescent population. And the only way to keep the population quiescent is to keep them fed, sheltered, and, most important, WORKING.

Looks like LL's point is that China's more like America than anyone guessed. If so, why are we supposed to rev up Yellow Peril v. 2.0?

China has an utterly amoral foreign policy, and they tend to view regimes shunned by the rest of the planet as business opportunities.

American companies don't have problems with Burma as a for instance so China isn't the only amoral actor around. Besides I am waiting for cheap chinese replacement body parts from Walmart, mind you business !! :-)

"China has an utterly amoral foreign policy, and they tend to view regimes shunned by the rest of the planet as business opportunities."

What part of "Saudi Arabia" don't you get, dude?

What part of "Shah of Iran" don't you get, dude?

What part of just about every ruthless South American dictatorial regime in the last century don't you get, dude?

What part of South Vietnam's assorted dictatorial asshats with access to the China Sea's oil don't you get, dude?

To accuse China of this is to laugh.

The Kagans really are sociopaths. I think that's the right term. I associate "psychopath" with someone who commits heinous crimes, like murder. These people murder from the armchair.


Comments closed April 24, 2008.

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