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Iran, Iraq, and Us

26 Apr 2008 01:11 pm

"Questions Linger on Scope of Iran’s Threat in Iraq" reports Mark Mazzetti, Steven Lee Myers and Thom Shanker for The New York Times as they detail the administration's efforts to build a case against Iran and the doubts that exist about this case.

I would say, though, that the real questions in play here are about strategy rather than about the details of Iranian involvement in Iraq. Suppose the Iranians somehow managed to conquer Canada. In the wake of this conquest, a chaotic situation existed with various Canadian groups opposing the Iranian occupation to different degrees, but also adhering to different visions of the Canadian future. And suppose some Iranian military officials came to the view that some Canadian factions who were fighting the Iranians were receiving substantial material support from a neighboring U.S. government which feared that the real Iranian interest in "stabilizing" Canada was to use it as a beachhead for anti-American activities throughout the Western Hemisphere.

The issue facing Iran in this context isn't, fundamentally, a factual question about the actual scope of American interference with their operation in Canada. It's a question about what they're trying to achieve and what costs they think are reasonable to run. Iranians convinced that Iran is already locked in a remorseless struggle with the U.S.A. will, of course, take the view that they need to stand their ground and fight us. Others will caution, however, that it's exceedingly unlikely that U.S.-Iranian war will make Iran better off -- the United States isn't in a position where indifference to the outcome in Canada in a realistic option, and fighting the United States will expose an awful lot of Iranians to risk of being blown up by the U.S. military's unparalleled abilities of power projections.

Clearly, the real world doesn't precisely parallel that story. But I think it does highlight the structure of the decisions we face. The thing that makes the most strategic sense for us to do is to disengage our forces from Iraq (thus making the supply lines of anti-American guerilla fighters irrelevant), and keep seeking verifiable and permanent nuclear disarmament from Iran through a diplomatic process aimed at improving relations between our two countries and focusing on the common enemy in al-Qaeda. The logic that says we have to fight Iran to stay in Iraq to check Iranian influence is painfully circular, much like the notion that we can't possibly leave Iraq until we've first militarily subdued ever Iraqi group opposed to our presence.

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Comments (33)

Matt, this is gibberish. Iraq is not Canada.

Iran and the US have serious congruent interests. We need realpolitik here, not dopey analogies and hysterical worst-case scenario building.

I'm not sure what was driving your hypothetical Iranians, but it's worthwhile to note that this particular scenario was foreseen and embraced by the architects of the war in Iraq.

A friendly Iraq was always meant to be a platform for U.S. operations throughout the middle east. If I remember correctly, the big question for neoconservatives (just before they became worried about ducking pies) was whether the U.S. military should turn left and go to Damascus or turn right and go to Iran.

40 U.S. military deaths in Iraq this month.

We've passed the total for the last two months, and equaled January's total.

Looks like the effect of the surge is on its way out.

The situation is intractable, because there are too many competing armed groups, willing to fight, with too many numbers and weapons. It is not a place where we can do good in a lasting way right now.

"Iran and the US have serious congruent interests. We need realpolitik here, not dopey analogies and hysterical worst-case scenario building.

Posted by Robert Powell | April 26, 2008 1:37 PM"

Don't you realize this just makes you naive hippy an anti-Semitic Israel-basher?

/end snark

Yglesias -

Nothing to say about the travesty of justice in your hometown, NYC? Is a black man's life not worth the same as a white man's life?

Don't forget that the Iranian Empire has ALSO conquered and occupied Mexico (i.e. Afghanistan) as well!

And lots of Iranian political leaders have been talking about supporting a Latino-seccessionist movement in Texas and California, and are currently giving arms and support to Black Panther freedom-fighters in Detroit, New York City, and Mississippi...

I see the drumbeats of war already getting put into the American imagination.

We often sit in our Igloos here in Canada and talk about this:

In 1953, Teddy Roosevelt's grandson, Kermit Jr, as head of the CIA, led the successful US-UK campaign to overthrow the first democratically elected Iranian government to install a dictator Shah. In return, Iran received pennies on every dollar of oil produced on their land by British (BP) and American oil companies.

It's clear why America's ostensibly altruistic goal of spreading democracy to that warmer part of the world is regarded with extreme suspicion even here in the Great White North.

Most Iranians would prefer genuine democracy, economic/religious freedom. I read that on the Internet somewhere, so it must be true, Eh?

I agree with Matt. But to the Pentagon, leaving Iraq is losing and negotiating with Iran is surrender. Obama better get ready. The military will resist his policies every step of the way.

Well said RKU. Also don't forget that in this analogy the USA and pre-invasion Mexico were enemies and the USA were keen to repair fences with Iran and show support after Mexico was used as a base for those organising a hideous and traumatic atrocity in Iran and so gave invaluable political and military help in facilitating the invasion of Mexico and was one of the most generous donor countries and has worked hard to reconstruct the North of Mexico and to stabilise it.

Unfortunately I think it is easier to write these scenarios than it is to follow them.

There is going to be immense frustration and jealousy of the Iranians who have far more political influence in Iran while the US continues to pay the price in blood and treasure to keep the country weak and occupied.

In any case in every occupation scenario there is going to be a natural tendency for the military to blame outside interference for their failure to end the 'insurgency'; the current politicians want to blame them; the country wants to blame them. It is much too easy to blame Iran and it is going to be very difficult to stop the slide once the military start saying we can do this if we have to.

If the US widens the war to Iran it has to end in tears. One of the reason that the Iranian economy is so stuffed is the huge demographic bomb, most of whom currently think quite favourably of the US. To piss them right off by wrecking Iran with a strategic bombing campaign would be unbelievably stupid; with their country and economy in tatters they would not be long finding something to do. Look at what one brigade of Hezbolah did in 2006 with no armour and the air belonging to the other side. Whichever way you look at it, it couldn't but end in tears (and some very high oil prices).

The thing to to do is to have a good talking-to of those Americans who want to have Iran as an enemy. That is the source of enmity - prompting Iranian officials into trying to avoid having American action taken on repeated, concrete military threats made by American officials. It's wrong to seek the problem in Iran and to "fix" it there.

Threats made and harassments acted on by American officials against Iran has been going on for far longer than Iran has been suspected of any illicit nuclear activity.

As for the embassy occupation, get over it. Really.

Thank you for the 'Canada' analogy Matt; (something I've been thinking about for a long while) Like I've long admonished people, "if the shoe fits....". Interesting that of all the candidates for POTUS, only Ron Paul had the guts to actually ruminate on this subject out loud.

Re Chris Dornan

The reason that the Hizbollah fighters did so well in 2006 was because of the incompetence of the other side. Instead of carpet bombing Hizbollah positions in Southern Lebanon, the IAF used precision munitions to bomb targets in the vicinity of Beirut. It 's pretty easy to look good when your opponent is incompetent.

It's fun to watch Matt shake off all that Bush/Clinton garbage he grew up on and move slowly but surely left.

Our own national problems include: over burdened education costs, lack of professional employment opportunity, unaffordable health insurance, crumbling infrastructures, and failing of our national banks. We have very serious problems in our own hemisphere!

What are we doing in Iraq? What are we doing in Persian Gulf the front door to Iran a country 7500 miles from home? Are own problems at home are much more serious than interventions in the Middle East.

Our own national problems include: over burdened education costs, lack of professional employment opportunity, unaffordable health insurance, crumbling infrastructures, and failing of our national banks. We have very serious problems in our own hemisphere!

What are we doing in Iraq? What are we doing in Persian Gulf the front door to Iran a country 7500 miles from home? Our own problems at home are much more serious than interventions in the Middle East.

The reason that the Hizbollah fighters did so well in 2006 was because of the incompetence of the other side. Instead of carpet bombing Hizbollah positions in Southern Lebanon, the IAF used precision munitions to bomb targets in the vicinity of Beirut. It 's pretty easy to look good when your opponent is incompetent.

Those Hezbollah fighters were fighting on their own territory. When you fight foreigners on your own territory, then those foreigners were attacking, or invading.

Matt: "keep seeking verifiable and permanent nuclear disarmament from Iran through a diplomatic process aimed at improving relations between our two countries and focusing on the common enemy in al-Qaeda."

While Matt is correct that any suspicions about Iran's nuclear activities can be easily dealt with by simply agreeing to respect Iran's territorial integrity, and to assist Iran in its nuclear energy program - which is the responsibility of nuclear members of the NPT to non-nuclear members - while requesting Iran support the Additional Protocol, he still doesn't actually answer my two questions.

Matt will NEVER answer those two questions because it will blow his "liberal internationalist" cover and sink sales of his book.

And as usual, SLC has it wrong, Hizballah kicked Israel's ASS in 2006. Any time your military has a ten to one numerical advantage and you end up with similar casualty rates, YOU LOST. And "carpet bombing" southern Lebanon simply would have killed more Lebanese civilians and had zero effect on the Viet Cong like bunkers Hizballah had available. Israel doesn't have B-52 bombers, you MORON.

The chairman, Admiral Michael Mullen, said he was "extremely concerned" about "the increasingly lethal and malign influence" by the government of Iran and the Quds Force....Pentagon concerns about Iranian influence in neighboring Iraq is nothing new, but the content and tone of Mullen's remarks left the impression that far from abating, the worries about Iran have intensified in recent months."The Iranian government pledged to halt such activities some months ago," Mullen said. "It's plainly obvious they have not. Indeed, they seem to have gone the other way."
The discovery of weapons caches in Iraq, with devices bearing stamps that indicate they were manufactured quite recently, run contrary to the Iranian promises not to interfere in Iraq, the admiral said.

What Iran is doing are all legal grounds for war. Under International Law, the US is in a UN Mandate of Occupation, which no other country is allowed to militarily intervene in without triggering a diplomatic and even militarily justified response against such "external aggression towards a recognized occupation force that endangers the force and the occupied nation's civilian population.
As Iranian weaponry has been mainly directed against Iraqi civilians, pro-Quds Lefties have some explaining to do about their "it is best to just let the Iranians be unmolested" position.

Anti-American idiot Bengt Larrson - The thing to to do is to have a good talking-to of those Americans who want to have Iran as an enemy. That is the source of enmity...

No, the source of the enmity is Iranian weapons and Iraqi agents of Iran trained by Quds continuing to flow in and killing Americans and Iraqis. They are playing a dangerous game, counting on the desire of the West to avoid major war enabling Iran to get away with causing hundreds of American deaths and maimings and many times that of Iraqis. They are especially banking on Lefties to block action against their killing GIs and Sunni Iraqis. Add in Iranian forces out playing "chicken" against Gulf Naval forces and commercial shipping...What is especially worrisome is these Quds Forces contain many Muslim fanatics that are not under the command & control of regular Iranian military and who have "freelanced" things like last years armed kidnapping of British sailors - and full war is just 6 inches from the missile launch button in the hands of some Iranian fanatic that may be eager to launch it against a US warship or US military base.

We are very, very close.

**************************
Swan - 40 U.S. military deaths in Iraq this month.

We've passed the total for the last two months, and equaled January's total.

Well, so what? Where was the Left's macabre fascination and even satisfaction with military death counts when 200 a month were dying under the dangerous, dilapidated military of Jimmy Carter?

31 of the deaths were hostile. The rest not enemy-related. The ones who did die at enemy hands were out mostly trying to kill enemy Islamoids of Al Qaeda and the Mahdi Army, which continue to suffer massive casulaties and continued routing out of areas they once controlled. Of those that died, a majority of those died believing that what they were doing as volunteers, even the danger, was worth it. It was worth it because even if they died young, they lived and died doing something that mattered and made a difference.
2.3 million Americans die each year. Most after living long lives, but lives that were not without the importance and meaning of national service, duty, and sacrifice.

Some Americans prefer a safe, cloistered life where they huddle about and cry about everyone needing to drink organic green tea to "be safer and live longer" and fret about the poor, poor people of Darfur that need more moaning and cries of "someone ought to do something!!" done on their behalf so the moaners feel good.
Other Americans volunteer for a riskier, more fulfilling life as they volunteer for the military, surf in waters a great white may rise up and chomp the life out of them well before Social Security kicks in. Or volunteer to be fireman or heavy construction or forestry workers who may face death on any given day.
All the troops in Iraq want are to be respected and honored for their choice of profession in live, and to be appreciated and remembered if they fall in duty against an Al Qaeda death squad they are taking out, or fall to a sophisticated Iranian anti-armor weapon. Just like those that just die in Alabama in Carter's military when 20 were lost in a crash when their old helicopter engine seized up. (I visited such a memorial in a farmer's field in Missouri a few years back.)

Chris Fraud, the resident degenerate racist disgustoid joining degenerate racist SLC. Thrilling.

Ford: "Just like those that just die in Alabama in Carter's military when 20 were lost in a crash when their old helicopter engine seized up."

You know WHY it seized up, moron? Because US helicopter maintenance training - like most military training - blows, that's why.

I was stationed at Fort Rucker, Alabama, for a year and a half when I came back from Vietnam in 1968. Fort Rucker is the US Army Helicopter Training School (or was at the time, I asssume it still is.)

I was attending one of the usual stupid bullshit "orientations" at an on base movie theater with my HQ company and the maintenance battalion. As a helicopter on screen was doing various maneuvers, a voice from the maintenance battalion behind me said, "He ain't gonna be doing that shit after I get through with his chopper."

Stuff your military glorification, asshat. These morons are over there getting their asses shot up - and murdering Iraqi civilians in great big bleeding batches - for NO KNOWN REASON except oil and corporate profits. Anybody that stupid deserves to get his ass shot up.

You go to another country, destroy it, kill everybody's relatives, they're gonna kill you.

Deal with it, moron.

Iran is following the neocon bullshit propaganda you morons believe in: They're killing Americans in Iraq so they don't have to kill them in Iran.

Iran KNOWS the US intends to attack Iran. So they're supporting Sadr as much or more than ISCI and Dawa because they know only Sadr has the will and the capability to do serious damage to the US when that happens.

Iran needs to have the US driven out of Iraq because US forces there are a direct military threat to Iran. As long as a Shia government remains in power, they don't care whether it's Sadr or ISCI or Dawa - they can deal with any of them. As long as it isn't a Sunni government, there's no problem. And since it's Arabs, not Persians, dying fighting the US, that's even better.

Finally, despite all the bullshit about how many Iranian "agents" and "fighters" are in Iraq - Colonel Pat Lang says "hundreds of thousands" - the US HAS NOT CAUGHT ONE! Not even ONE dead Iranian body! That tells you something. The US has arrested a handful of Iranians - all of whom were INVITED by the Iraqi government (or the Kurdish government) and all of whom were asked to be released by the Iraqi government or the Kurds.

Even in the latest rhetoric about Iran, both Gates and Mullen can't even show that any of the weapons brought in were brought in by anybody except freelance smugglers. The whole "IEDs are manufactured in Iran" crap was blown out of the water when indigenous Iraqi insurgent IED factories were captured.

Iran is undoubtedly supporting Sadr, ISCI and Dawa, and perhaps others (but very unlikely the Sunni insurgents - they get their support from Saudi Arabia, as everyone knows.) They are supporting them with money, logistics, weapons and training in Iran. Iran undoubtedly has agents throughout Iraq. All that is obvious. But those agents are undercover, not engaging in direct combat with US forces. If the US has proof otherwise, provide it.

And even if it does, given that the US engaged in a war that was deemed illegal by everybody on the planet, suggesting that the UN Mandate makes it all legal now - especially after the massive murders of Iraqi civilians by US military operations - is disingenuous in the extreme. And therefore whining about Iran's "influence" in Iraq is just bullshit.

It's all merely a cover for Dick Cheney's desire to seize the Khuzestan oil fields in Iran and toss some more fat military contracts to his military-industrial complex cronies. Period.

If you can't deal with those realities, STFU.

How can anyone state with certainty the political and nuclear ambitions of Iran? According to the intelligence community, it is one of the few countries where good intelligence is difficult to obtain. The most critical information is something called "leadership intentions" and with Iran's bizarre governmental structure it is almost impossible to penetrate. Even the Iranians have a hard time understanding the motives of their government.

There are many reasons that we are still engaged in Iraq. The challenge is will the American people have the patience to support the effort to stabilize the country?

"There are many reasons that we are still engaged in Iraq. The challenge is will the American people have the patience to support the effort to stabilize the country?

Posted by EWard | April 26, 2008 9:49 PM"

Put another way, the challenge is the will of the American people strong enough to support spending our blood and treasure to make Iran more powerful? We're propping up Iran's proxies in Iraq after all.

If the US leaves Iraq, the Iranians will "stabilize" it in an hour.

The Sunnis won't like it, but fuck 'em, they lost. They can either make a deal to cooperate with Sadr as nationalists or get screwed over by ISCI and Dawa. Their choice.

But there's absolutely no doubt now that the US intends to attack Iran sometime within the next six months. And once that happens, it's over for the US in Iraq. Sadr, ISCI and Dawa will all attack the US forces, while the Sunnis will see their chance to join in. With their supply lines cut, the US military will be out of food, water, ammo and fuel within a month or two. After that, either they get out of Iraq via Turkey, or Iran rolls them up. As William Lind has said, it's quite possible, if unlikely, that the US will lose its entire military force in Iraq if it attacks Iran.

Reality Man

There are clear risks with any Iraq strategy. However, Iraq's neighbors have much to lose if it becomes a failed state. Unfortunately, some of them are involving themselves in uncooperative ways by taking sides and creating further chaos.

"There are clear risks with any Iraq strategy. However, Iraq's neighbors have much to lose if it becomes a failed state. Unfortunately, some of them are involving themselves in uncooperative ways by taking sides and creating further chaos.

Posted by EWard | April 27, 2008 4:22 AM"

Perhaps the reason they are taking sides is to reduce the chaos. Around 80% or so of modern civil wars end when one side wins decisively. In many ways, once we decided to not pursue partition in the early days of the occupation, we had to either choose a side or hand control of Iraq off to the likes of Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia (with the Kurds ruling themselves) if there was to stability. Choosing a side is not pretty, but often necessary once you stick your nose into such situations. We chose a side in Kosovo and ignored it when around 1,500 Serbs were killed and another 100,000 forced from their homes because trying to decisively crack down on the likes of the KLA would have just made the situation more unstable. Today, Kosovo is probably a lot more stable than it would be if Clinton had decided to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

SLC makes an anti-Israeli comment, and Richard Steven Hack does not applaud. But someone musts.

Indubitably, during its engagement with Hezbollah, IDF made a lot of bombing with no military value whatsoever. Rather than concentrating the fire on the fighters, who were somewhat elusive, they concentrated on politically supportive population that was not. And the score in mano-a-mano engagements (basically, tanks against bunkers) was not encouraging. What happened: in the last 20 years, IDF became an organization devoted to policing, repression and punishment rather than ordinary warfare, so this is what they can do and what they do. And having opponents with actual WEAPONS, oh, that was painful.

This raises the following point: is it a good idea for our Army to do the same for a long duration of time? Almighty forbid, suppose that we would face an opponent with sufficiently good air defenses that Army could not call for air support any time someone is in trouble?

I suspect that Iran is sufficiently strong by now that MAD doctrine applies, if only economically -- a war with Iran will destroy their economy, and ours.

About Iraq's neighbors having a lot to loose if Iraq becomes a "failed state": who? Iran and Syria have a lot to loose if we succeed in creating a stable client state. For Turkey, a strong Iraq preventing military incursions from Turkey is not necessarily a plus. Kuweit and Saudis can be indifferent, Jordan -- I do not see situation getting worse for Jordan than it is now. Plus, with huge pile of oil money to divide, someone will dominate the country, so the question is not "will it be a failed state", but "what will be the alliances of the victors".

We didn't, and don't, have to "either choose a side or hand control of Iraq off to the likes of Syria and Saudi Arabia...".

There is a power struggle in Iraq which is both nothing new, and not a civil war. It's absurd to postulate an "opposition" with infrastructure, cadre, popular support, and a plan for governance when nothing of the sort exists. All the significant factions currently vying for power are represented in the Iraqi government, thanks to the round of generally free and fair elections we sponsored along with the UN. Iran will play a role whether we like it or not, as we will without regard to their preferences. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter much for US interests if Iraq is a strong centralized state, a loose federal structure with lots of regional autonomy, or several successor states based on sectarian/ethnic identity. If it's/they're reasonably pro-Western, reasonably democratic, at peace with the neighbors and pumping oil, we win. And so, by the way, do the Iraqi people.

SLC said:

The reason that the Hizbollah fighters did so well in 2006 was because of the incompetence of the other side. Instead of carpet bombing Hizbollah positions in Southern Lebanon, the IAF used precision munitions to bomb targets in the vicinity of Beirut. It 's pretty easy to look good when your opponent is incompetent.

My understanding is that Hizbollah did a pretty good counter-intelligence job that fooled the IDF and that the IAF were by no means reluctant to carpet South Lebanon with metal--they basically gave up on Hizbollah and attacked their civy hosts instead in the hope of making them unpopular.

See Crooke-Perry article at the Conflicts Forum for more details.

Richard Steven Hack: I agree with much of what you write but I think you would be surprised at how easily it could be reconciled with what Matt is saying. I suppose it depends upon precisely what you are trying to get across but sometimes it is more effective to package what you have to say in such a way that it will be easier for the people that you really want to listen to take it on board.

I think Matt is taking the shortest path through the neocon BS to explain why we should get ourselves out of this nightmare.

Powell: "If it's/they're reasonably pro-Western, reasonably democratic, at peace with the neighbors and pumping oil, we win"

And this is why Powell is an idiot, because nobody in Iraq wants to "reasonably pro-Western", not even the Maliki crowd, since they want to join up with Iran. Sadr is a nationalist who hates the US.

They may pump the oil, but until the Sunnis are taken care of with the revenues, they will continue to blow up the pipelines. And until Sadr and his poor Shia are taken care of, they will continue to siphon off billions in oil smuggling.

So as usual, Powell is hallucinating.

Chris Dornan: Yes, I have those Asia Times articles on my hard drive. Very revealing.

As to Matt, he could answer my two questions at any time here, in any Iran-related post. He refuses to do so. It's not a question of my getting through to him any more. He's simply too cowardly to establish his position on Iran, because he knows he was wrong on Iraq. I therefore have to conclude that he's wrong on Iran as well and that's why he doesn't answer the questions.

All he has to do is answer either "yes" or "no" (or some combination) to those two questions. Then we can have a useful discussion - or beat the crap out of him (verbally), depending on his answers. But at least he'll be on record. If Bill Kristol can be universally wrong throughout history on everything and come up grinning, I don't see why Matt doesn't have the balls to at least answer two questions from a reader of his blog. He's just terrified that some other blogger will point to the answers some day if he's wrong like they did on Iraq.

Some "pundit". This is why I call him a "wannabe pundit".

"There is a power struggle in Iraq which is both nothing new, and not a civil war. It's absurd to postulate an "opposition" with infrastructure, cadre, popular support, and a plan for governance when nothing of the sort exists. All the significant factions currently vying for power are represented in the Iraqi government, thanks to the round of generally free and fair elections we sponsored along with the UN. Iran will play a role whether we like it or not, as we will without regard to their preferences. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter much for US interests if Iraq is a strong centralized state, a loose federal structure with lots of regional autonomy, or several successor states based on sectarian/ethnic identity. If it's/they're reasonably pro-Western, reasonably democratic, at peace with the neighbors and pumping oil, we win. And so, by the way, do the Iraqi people.

Posted by Robert Powell | April 27, 2008 2:05 PM"

Lot's of civil wars have looked like that. The Sunni parties, for instance, are no longer in the government. It's not that uncommon to have elections in a country and then have the various parties with seats in the parliament go at each other in a civil war. The problem is that the US isn't really backing a strategy that can reach any of the end-points you propose up here. At best, we're looking at a more violent version of the Weimar Republic (not saying that the successor would be Hitler, but most democracies of this type tend to collapse and give way to dictatorships).

There should not be a war with Iran, nor an incursion into Iran because of cross-border smuggling.

As for Chris Ford: you can bite me. At least you could spell my name right.

It amazes me how the self interests of the Iraqis are written off and its neighbors are spoken in terms of conquering heroes. Despite the deep rooted problems in Iraq, they are not about to step aside and let the neighboring countries divide up its wealth.

Memo to Piotr: Syria's economy has already taken a hit with hundreds of thousands of refugees streaming into their country and depleting their resources.

As our occupation and surge have demonstrated, insurgencies are unpredictable. Why would the Iranians have an easier time controlling it? Wouldn't their military and economy feel the impact?

The purpose of the surge is to stabilize Iraq while eliminating the threats of the militias and extremists. The challenge is how to forge partnerships and trusted networks with at-risk communities? (Source: David Kilcullen-Iraq Counterinsurgency Advisor)


Comments closed May 10, 2008.

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