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Is It The Water?

25 Apr 2008 04:29 pm

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Mario Batali tells Wired that the reason you can't replicate New York pizza is the water:

"Water," Batali says. "Water is huge. It's probably one of California's biggest problems with pizza." Water binds the dough's few ingredients. Nearly every chemical reaction that produces flavor occurs in water, says Chris Loss, a food scientist with the Culinary Institute of America. "So, naturally, the minerals and chemicals in it will affect every aspect of the way something tastes."

I've heard this water theory, as applied to both pizza and bagels, from a variety of sources for years. To me, it doesn't add up. Here's why -- if you leave the city and head to a suburban community in Long Island or Connecticut or New Jersey featuring many ex-NYC Jews, you'll find bagels that are similar to the ones in the city. Similarly, where ex-NYC Italian-American communities exist in the suburbs, they make similar pizza. But even though these suburbs are close to the city, their water actually comes from radically different sources.

I think the economics just don't translate out of the social context of the traditional northeast areas of Italian-American settlement. When you go someplace that doesn't have that pizza tradition and go build a restaurant where people are going to sit at tables and order brick oven pizza by the pie from a server, you wind up going for a more upscale ambience than you see at, say, John's on Bleeker Street. That flows naturally into a more upscale conception of the ingredients and next thing you know you have something like DC's Matchbox, which I like a lot, but is really quite different from the old-school New York experience.

Photo by Flickr user Tangysd used under a Creative Commons license

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Comments (84)

Bleeker Street

Oh, no! This isn't a spelling issue, it's a matter of civic pride.

He'd have a better point if he were talking about beer. (A Berkeley brewer once told me the water here is chemically identical to that used in Guinness.) It's be interesting if here were more specific about what's wrong with Hetch-Hetchy water.

He's wrong about Tomasso's, by the way. That place has gone downhill, even as its neighborhood improves.

If water is key, then San Francisco should have the best pizza in the world, bar none. Hetch Hetchy water is far and away the purest, highest quality available through any big municipal system in the U.S. Since pizza in Providence is superior to any I've had in SF, I'm thinking water ain't the secret sauce. Not to denigrate Providence water, but it's not in the same league as SF's.

Must you pizza-blog during Passover?

Matchbox? Not real pizza if #2 location is in Palm Springs. This is such a wine track kind of joint, it almost makes me want to vote for Hillary or at least go out to Coney Island for a Totonno's pie.

Matt,

The water has a lot to do with bread. My aunt lived in Atlantic City and when we visited we always went to the White House, a fabulous and famous sub shop. Many years ago my dad asked the owner what was so special about the subs and he said it had a good deal to do with the bread. He further explained that it was the local water used in the bread that was a huge factor. Just recently I read an article, I believe in Gourmet, about the White House and it also mentioned the water used in the bread was key.

And John's is near Cones, which makes it even better.

pinson, yes, but don't assume yeasts have our tastes in water.

when Larry Smith launched Finagle A Bagel in 1991 veteran bagel makers told him it was impossible to make a good bagel outside New York City because nowhere else has water that tastes quite the same as Gotham's.
He heard this statement so many times that Smith, 41, decided to put it to the test. He filled a pail of water from the spigot at his Faneuil Hall Market shop, placed it in his car and drove it to New York City. At the shop of a bagel equipment manufacturer, Smith made two batches of bagels: one using New York City water, the other with Boston water. "There was absolutely no difference between them," Smith reported.

http://boston.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/1997/12/08/smallb2.html

Do ordinary people like me have to give hat-tips? Okay, for the definitive answer, http://www.kottke.org/remainder/08/04/15512.html

I live in Berkeley -- there is nowhere that is more California -- and there's a nearby pizza place run by a guy who used to run a pizzeria in New York; he uses superfresh California produce to produce truly NY style pizza. And I have to say, it's the best NY pizza I've ever had, by far definitely surpassing any pizza I've ever had in New York itself (and I've had quite a few)... perhaps because of the quality of the ingredients. So Matt's right, it's not in the water. The place is called Gioia, on Hopkins, in case you're in the neighborhood.

There is no water like the water I get from my kitchen faucet. To me, that is the tastiest water anywhere.

Must be that fluoridation wasn't enough of a socialist scheme for New York liberals, so they put the mystery chemical pizzahol into their water.

The post is a good one, but I'd note that some NYC suburbs do, in fact, use NYC water supply.

I've read about some New York gangsters that moved to Miami in the 1980s and opened a pizza shop there-- they hired tanker trucks to transport water from Brooklyn down to Florida because they claimed it made all the difference in the dough.

BTW, I think that it could be the water, despite Matthew's assertion, if the water in the suburbs is chemically similar to NYC water (which comes from the Catskills). I don't know if that's the case or not, but I don't automatically dismiss it as a possibility.

My personal belief is that the Italian-American culture affects the technique by which the pizza is made - even if you used the exact same equipment and ingredients in Omaha as in Staten Island, the people making the pizza would not use the same techniques.

The best pizza isn't even in NY. Pepe's in New Haven, CT, is the bomb!!

If water is key, then San Francisco should have the best pizza in the world, bar none. Hetch Hetchy water is far and away the purest, highest quality available through any big municipal system in the U.S.

I don't think Batali's contention is that it takes very pure water; only that New York's for whatever reason has the right mix of chemicals and minerals to make the dough just right.

But I don't think this bears out. Wouldn't it be pretty easy to ship NY water to California if it could really make the pizza that much better?

I've never really found good NY style pizza west of New Jersey. I don't think it's the water, it's the people making the pie.

Bull to the shit.

San Francisco = best water. SF has a completely underrated pizza scene, but I still don't think anything is topping DiFara's, Lombardi's and the others.

I think the Wired article also points out the the chemistry of a pizza oven might well change over time, and according to its usage. Not sure if Batali was making that point or someone else though.

I find this hilarious. Do you know that almost any city that has a measure of civic pride claims to have the best water? It's true. I've heard this in so many places it's ridiculous. When I first moved to Madrid, I got a speech about how their water was the best because it came down from the mountains surrounding it. I've heard the same thing about water in my hometown in Indiana. The reason: Lake Michigan. It's pretty bogus.

Bread aside, water certainly makes a huge difference in scotch. Barrel selection is bigger for any particular scotch, but the regional differences in taste are largely due to water.

Joe's is way better than John's if you're looking for a slice on BleeCker. And John's, by the way, is very much a sit down, waiter brings you a whole pie kind of place, as is Lombardi's, and both are known as NYC pizza institutions. I believe Grimaldi's in BK also fits that bill, though I went only once and haven't been there in years so my memory is kind of dim.

My personal view on the merits of NYC pizza is that it isn't a dough or water issue. It's primarily a sauce and good cheese issue. The reason the sauce is partly the years of tradition and expertise, combined with high, sustained sales volume requirements levels to remain profitable, which in turn, prevents too much skimping on ingredients. Sauce will always be at least 2/3 of a pizza's score, as that's what gives it flavor. And Joe's best John's, despite their tendency to burn their crust on occasion, because the sauce is obscenely good.

Well, a friend of mine opened a Philly cheese steak place near UCLA ("South Street") and he gets his water from back East to make the bread. So, who the fuck knows?

As far as pizza, it's very hard to find a good slice in L.A. One place that does measure up is Vittorio's in Pacific Palisades.

As an Atlantic City native now living in New England, I agree that the bread there is some of the best I've ever tasted, and I remember from childhood that the theory about the water making a difference was commonplace. I never really believed the theory, and it seems less plausible than, say, good bakers and a local expectation of good bread. But AC has a certain local inferiority complex that makes folks more likely to attribute their bread to luck and water quality than to actual baking excellence.

White House has a certain international reputation, but was never one of my favorites. These days, I usually make a stop at Dino's in Margate when I'm in the area, even though it wasn't a childhood favorite. The cheesesteak and special subs in AC (always subs, not hoagies like in Philly or grinders like in New England, or even submarine sandwiches) are generally excellent, but cheesesteaks almost anywhere within an hour of Philly are usually very good, both as a matter of civic pride and as a restaurant survival tactic. I've been to Chinese buffets in the area and encountered cheesesteak egg rolls (which were also surprisingly good).

This is an evil, evil thread for those of us observing Passover....

it's the competition.

I live down here in the south. A guy from Buffalo (they make damn good Pizza there too) opened a shop here and proceeded to offer damn good pizza. Over the course of a few months the pizza turned awful -- bad dough, bad cheese, bad sauce. When I talked to him about it, he said he was competing for customers against Pizza Hut and Dominoes. In short, his clientele didn't know good pizza from sh!t pizza, or didn't care. He couldn't afford to pay for real ingredients if the people weren't willing to pay for 'em. In regions where people grow up eating bad pizza, its hard to change that mindset.

There is still one little Italian guy here from brooklyn, still doing it old school though. Thank god.

Oh, and greek pizza sucks.

Not to cite "Scent of a Woman" as a primary source, but I do remember Al Pacino's character saying, "The bread's no damn good west of the Mississippi, the water's too akaline."

The truth is that, regardless of the water, MOST of the pizza in NYC proper frankly sucks -- i.e., the thousands of famous Rays dotting the streets, what remains of the "neighborhood" pizza joints, etc. There are a small number of truly outstanding places that t everyone knows, and that people have named on this thread, that serve excellent pies. But the basic pizza options available in NYC (many very mediocre pies, a few high end places) are increasingly available in many other cities. It doesn't turn out to be that difficult to have a handful of excellent Pizza joints even in truly Western cities like Phoenix or (Mozza, Vito's, a few others) in L.A. that compete with, even if they do not exceed, the better places in NY or New Haven. And your average range "corner" NY pizza is really not that different in quality from much of the pizza available elsewhere.

Thus, while NYC certainly produces a higher volume of pizza, and contains some -- although certainly not all -- of the contenders for "best pizza" in the Country, it is also in the process of rapidly losing its status as a unique pizza location. In my view much, although not all, of the pizza whining that crops up by out-of-the-city NYC expats can be attributed to nostalgia combined with an unrealistic memory of what really-existing NY pizza looks like today.

I think the difference is primarily stylistic, not ingredient based. Certainly nobody ever proposed that good water makes the crust thin, eh? I just think that "good pizza" (and likewise bagels) has a different definition outside the NYC area. And that's a damn shame.

In regards If water is key, then San Francisco should have the best pizza in the world, bar none. Hetch Hetchy water is far and away the purest, highest quality available, as said earlier, it's not the *purity* of the water, it's the *nature* of the water, specifically the precise mix of minerals. This is absolutely the case in brewing, and likely has an important role in bread/crust baking too. And similarly...

(A Berkeley brewer once told me the water here is chemically identical to that used in Guinness.)

I really, really doubt that, though I haven't checked. Bay Area water is known for being exceptionally soft, i.e. low in minerals, due to being snowmelt. I'm quite certain that the water Guinness is made from is much harder -- the whole point of using the dark grains (which are acidic) is to offset the alkalinity of the mineral-rich water used in making stouts (and Porters in London). So I suspect that this isn't true. Which brewery btw?

CG, I'll have to check out that Gioia place, I hadn't heard of it. Currently my favorite East Bay pizza place is Lanesplitters (in Berkeley and Oakland). They not only have real good pizza, on a par with NYC, but they also have a great NorCal beer selection!

"(A Berkeley brewer once told me the water here is chemically identical to that used in Guinness.)

I really, really doubt that, though I haven't checked. "

Just to be clear, I don't doubt that that is what the brewer told you, I just doubt that he was right :-D

As far as pizza, it's very hard to find a good slice in L.A. One place that does measure up is Vittorio's in Pacific Palisades.

Capriccio's at the Sunset Junction is excellent too. Of course, this is the home of Wolfgang Puck-esque designer pizza's with arugala, baby goat cheese and seared Peking duck as the ingredients, so for anyone who thinks pizza = mozzarella and pepperoni, it might not appeal. As an East Coast friend says when I get my usual Canadian bacon & pineapple with light cheese: "That's not pizza, it's a dough confection with toppings".

As a side note: this talk of beer reminds me of the sticker shock I had last when I went beer shopping for a party this weekend. Due to the increase in the cost of the hops etc., six-packs of things like Pyramid Hefewiezen and Otter Creek IPA that I used to pay $6 for now go for $10. Damn.

I've recently had pizzas in Naples and Rome...which was all we could afford, given the situation of the dollar versus the euro. They were infinitely better than pizzas in Brooklyn, Boston, or San Francisco. What's in Italian water that's not in U.S. water?

i always that A&V was the only tolerable pizza in DC. though the adams morgan "big pizza" is surprisingly good when eaten post-2 AM. Must be a different water source at that time

pinson, yes, but don't assume yeasts have our tastes in water

This reminds me of why you can't get proper sourdough outside of the Bay Area...

i always that A&V was the only tolerable pizza in DC. though the adams morgan "big pizza" is surprisingly good when eaten post-2 AM. Must be a different water source at that time

ResumeMan, it was Golden Bear, ~7 years ago. All this time I've been wondering why their beer wasn't better, with all that he seemed to know. (He boasted of breaking the water down and building it back up to his specs.) Given your doubts, perhaps he was just full of shit.

Ingredients affect taste.
Water affects taste.
The stuff dissolved in water is a big deal.

When I lived in Pittsburgh I could tell which of 2 bottling plants did the CocaCola.

Wheat and pasta in Italy ARE different.

Your taste buds may need some training.

Most people say the reason that Guiness tastes so good in Ireland and crap everywhere else is because of the water. But that's beer making, where water is a huge deal...

In my view much, although not all, of the pizza whining that crops up by out-of-the-city NYC expats can be attributed to nostalgia combined with an unrealistic memory of what really-existing NY pizza looks like today.

You've obviously never been to Austin, Texas.

Aside from the 'best pizza in the world' BS, water is huge when it comes to the chemical processes. As a home brewer, I know that the flavor of your favorite beer has as much (if not more) to do with the source water than anything else, and its a similar principal to bread making.

Water has salts, calcium, carbonate, sulfate and other minerals present in relatively unique levels for each individual source... take all the other ingredients and move them to another water and it'll be night and day. My grandparent's well water in the Oregon Cascades comes from 300+ feet under rock and is the best tasting drink I can think of (flavored or otherwise), but I won't let it touch my beer because I don't know it's specific profile.

So everyone stop yer complaining. It's real. I've never been to NY, but suspect I'll still like the pizza from my home town better, because that's what I eat regularly.

of course it is the water. It is the same reason that Italian bread is only good in the Northeast, and this is in fact what makes Philly cheesesteaks so good. It is not the purity of the water but its impurities that make the difference. For this same reason you cannot make good corn whiskey anywhere except Kentucky, because corn whiskey requires water filtered through limestone, which is apparently in abundance in the bluegrass state.

John's is okay, Joe's is way better. Too bad Joe's has only one location now--having two restaurants just a few doors away was truly amazing!

Cones rocks the ice cream so hard it's not funny, but man, those prices...

NYC pizza is the most overrated substance on earth. It's devotees are Ron Paul Gold Standard level nuts on the subject.

Does drinking NYC water turn you into an only-New-York-matters idiot narcissist? Because that would be an equally plausible explanation.

Aside from the 'best pizza in the world' BS, water is huge when it comes to the chemical processes. As a home brewer, I know that the flavor of your favorite beer has as much (if not more) to do with the source water than anything else, and its a similar principal to bread making.

That's certainly true as far as it goes, but I'm not convinced that what makes NYC special is the *flavor* of the dough per se, rather than the style -- thin, crispy crust, chewy dough "ring," plus the great tangy sauce and good cheese. I don't know that the water affects those aspect all that much, as opposed to the choices in pie preparation.

But maybe it is.

ResumeMan, it was Golden Bear, ~7 years ago. All this time I've been wondering why their beer wasn't better, with all that he seemed to know. (He boasted of breaking the water down and building it back up to his specs.) Given your doubts, perhaps he was just full of shit.

Is that Golden Pacific? Ya they never were one of my favorites.

But what you are referring to may be different from what you had relayed earlier. While I'm pretty sure that Berkeley water isn't likely to be very similar to Dublin water, you *could* fairly easily mimic it by adding minerals. That would actually be fairly easy to do since our water is so low in minerals.

So if what he meant is that *his* brewing water is the same as Dublin's that could well be true -- but that's not what he started with.

But if so -- he still missed the mark with his beer :P

New England and New York got scoured up pretty good by the glaciers, leaving us Cape Cod, Long Island, plus lots of granite rock exposed, hard soil to farm and hard acidic water that tastes good, but is full of mineral impurities.

This water difference has long been noted in Europe as influencing bakery products taste. And so too, it appears, in the USA. It doesn't take much - just a few ppm of different aromatics created from the pH difference and trace minerals like iron, magnesium sulphate, silica interacting with wheat proteins and carbs and sugars can make a huge taste difference. Another person noted limestone filtered water makes good whiskey.

The Pacific Northwest makes for some damn good drinking water, same with Alaska, Maine, the Rockies. NYC water though, is one of the best out of the tap in the world.

As America's population explodes, the quality of the water may decline in many areas from the 138 million extra people we get from Open Borders by 2050, and anyone that has been to China and had to gag down their tainted drinking water just has to remember that in 1950, CHina had 720 million polluting people....in 2100, America will have the same numbers or more, by US Census projections of the impact of mass immigration....

Most people say the reason that Guiness tastes so good in Ireland and crap everywhere else is because of the water.

Isn't it that most people say Guinness doesn't travel well? (North America's Guinness is brewed under license in Canada, fwiw.)

GoldenBear; Golden Pacific, that's the one, and you're probably right about what he said. (And what you say about low minerals to begin with makes sense. I had wondered why it would be cost effective to do the break it down step.) Like I said, it was 7 years ago, and I may have been drunk. Never trust what you read on the nets, it seems.

"White House has a certain international reputation, but was never one of my favorites. These days, I usually make a stop at Dino's in Margate when I'm in the area, even though it wasn't a childhood favorite."

I ate a lot of Dino's steak sandwiches in my childhood and always loved 'em. White House is better, however.

But neither hold a candle to the better Philly places like Jim's.

Dino's : Jim's :: John's : Luzzo's.

Really good is better than just good.

-----

And of course it's the competition, not the water.

I've heard this water theory, as applied to both pizza and bagels, from a variety of sources for years. To me, it doesn't add up.

It especially doesn't add up in this case seeing as how Mario Batali himself co-owns a restaurant in Los Angeles named "Mozza" at which chef Nancy Silverton completely obliterates this theory.

Her pizza crust, made with supposedly inferior Los Angeles water, is otherworldly and much written about.

She has explained that it's actually all about the oven.

The other day I bought a pizza from a local chain pizza restaurant outside Atlanta, and it was okay except for the rock in the pizza, and in this case I think it was the pebble and not the water which made the difference.

To all Angelino readers:

Y'all gotta get in your cars, steel yourself against traffic and venture east of La Brea. Hell, venture east of Vermont.

Casa Bianca: not NY style (cripsy thin crsut) but mighty tasty.

Zelo's: In Arcadia, deep dish and conr-bread crust, somewhat similar to Geno's East in Chicago when it was still located on Superior.

To all Angelino readers:

Steel yourself against traffic, put on your best Stanley and Livingstone duds and venture east of Highland. Hell, venture east of Vermont. For the really brave, go east of Silver Lake.

Casa Bianca: Not NY style but might tasty.

Zelo's: In Arcadia. Try it.

Double post. Sorry ...

Stupid government servers ...

As I have posted before, this guy
http://slice.seriouseats.com/jvpizza/
has put the "water theory" to rest once and for all.

Cranky

Note: I take no responsibility for the consequences of any of the techniques described on that web site.

"As I have posted before, this guy ... has put the "water theory" to rest once and for all."

Ain't that Jeff Varasano page great? Beyond the cooking experiment and details, his restaurant rankings at the bottom of the page are incredibly good.

And SliceNY is truly a crucial blog. I visit daily.

I'm a big proponent of the theory that there's almost no really good pie outside of the NYC to New Haven corridor for competition reasons, but the photo of the slice from Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix on the Varasano page at least sure looks like good pie.

You better check your oven, and follow his modification instructions, or look to using a grill and a pizza stone, because he advocates never cooking your pizzas at less than 800F and ideally at 825F.

"You better check your oven, and follow his modification instructions, or look to using a grill and a pizza stone, because he advocates never cooking your pizzas at less than 800F and ideally at 825F."

The heat problem is why if you're trying to make real pizza at home, you've either got too much time or too much money on your hands.

---

And heat is a big reason why it's good to be in NYC or New Haven for pizza. The coal ovens in the restaurants there are grandfathered into the building codes.

You don't see commercial pizza establishments with coal ovens outside of the NYC to New Haven corridor.

And coal cooks better pie.

"And coal cooks better pie."

The John's on Bleecker that Matthew mentions is a perfectly uninspired pizzeria, but they've got a coal oven, so the pies are pretty damn good.

Uh oh. It sounds like trying to make real pizza at home means that you're something that rhymes with lust bund dumbsag.

the photo of the slice from Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix on the Varasano page at least sure looks like good pie

As I posted on the last pizza thread a month ago, Bianco's is as good as I've had in NYC, but of course the proprietor is from the Bronx, which lends credence to the "it's the technique, not the water" theory.

"Uh oh. It sounds like trying to make real pizza at home means that you're something that rhymes with lust bund dumbsag."

To be/get rich is glorious. There's nothing wrong with disposable income, per se.

But I can think that and still not be fond of the Paris Hilton type of the species.

-----

If you've got too much time and/or money, and if you're that type of person, engineering the proper cooking oven for real pizza at home seems a perfectly virtuous hobby to me. Nothing wrong with geekery. Put it in the backyard, and the whole thing seems kinda fun.

But going to NYC or New Haven certainly is a simpler way to get the pleasure.

"As I posted on the last pizza thread a month ago, Bianco's is as good as I've had in NYC"

I remember you talking about the owner, but I didn't realize you'd been there.

Similarly, where ex-NYC Italian-American communities exist in the suburbs, they make similar pizza.

Many of the 'za parlors in the New York area are run by Albanians.

Zelo's: In Arcadia, deep dish and conr-bread crust, somewhat similar to Geno's East in Chicago when it was still located on Superior.

I live about five blocks from the Lincoln Park/Lakeview location, so I should probably mention that it's "Gino's" with an I. And the pizza is pretty much the same at the new Chicago street location as it was at the Superior location.

Also, Arcadia sucks (I'm I proud Temple City graduate).

The actress Cathy Moriarty, whom you'll know as DeNiro's blond teenaged girlfriend from Raging Bull, owns a mini-chain of pizza restaurants in LA called Mulberry Street, where they claim to ship in NYC tap water for that special NY pie taste.

I have no idea whether that's true but the dough does have a NY-pizza-ish flavor and texture. Delish.

First of all, Mulberry Street...not very good. Doesn't taste like either type of NYC pizza (John's or Famous Ray's) to me. It does taste a lot like all of the other (not Famous) Ray's.

However, Nicky D.'s in Silver Lake (L.A.) almost out does John's in the wood-fired, brick-oven style.

Now pizza is something you obviously have a great deal deal of experience with and is an area in which I could take your opinion seriously. Please focus your future efforts on things like this and not things which you are embarrisngly ignorant.

It's kinda funny. Everyone on the planet has decided to grade Artichoke on a curve.

I respect the folks behind the place, and if you haven't been there, I advise going, but it's not particularly good pie.

If you lived in Washington or Seattle, it would be heaven. But given the competition...

Of course, Connecticut's water must be a lot more similar to New York's water than to California's water, due to hardness if nothing else.

And I've never been there, but I'm told there's a pizzeria in Oakland that has fresh dough flown in from NYC every day.

Petey, you bicoastal elitist scum. Obviously, the vast majority of America is just flyover country for you.

"Petey, you bicoastal elitist scum. Obviously, the vast majority of America is just flyover country for you."

You misunderstand me. I don't discriminate against the great portion of America lacking in salt water proximity. Almost all of the coasts are pie deficient as well. Only a narrow NYC to New Haven corridor has decent pie.

If you transplanted Artichoke anyplace out of the corridor, it'd be fantastic. It's only because it's located in pizza Jerusalem that makes it sub-mediocre.

I remember you talking about the owner, but I didn't realize you'd been there.

Yup, got a old friend - Italian American from Staten Island - who lives there now and has known about the place since it opened. The other thing I can confirm is the talk about the wait. Every time I've been there, we've waited at least two hours - which is fine, because Bianco opened a bar next door and you can just sit outside and have a bottle of wine and hang with your friends.

If you lived in Washington or Seattle, it would be heaven. But given the competition...

I assume you mean Washington the state since Washington DC has Pizzeria Paradiso and needs no defenders. But we've been over this before, and you've just forgotten.

Not to denigrate Providence water, but it's not in the same league as SF's.

Denigrate away. I like Providence and I love its pizza, but the city has terrible lead problems. If you live here, don't drink anything that hasn't been run through a filter.

> If you've got too much time and/or money,
> and if you're that type of person, engineering
> the proper cooking oven for real pizza at
> home seems a perfectly virtuous hobby to me.

A basic pizza stone costs $20; a good one $200. The modifications Jeff made to his oven would cost $7 if you didn't already own the necessary tool. Everything else he does in that article you can do by hand with bowls you already own, or you can pick up more at garage sales for less than $20. So I am having a hard time seeing where the need for "disposable money" comes in. Personally I have bought quite a few baking gadgets, but that is because I am a gadget lover not because I need them.

Building a full brick oven in the backyard will cost $1000-$3000 depending on how handy you are, but you can get everything except the large hearth size with an earth oven built from dirt, scavenged material, and $50 of clean firebrick (see _Build Your Own Earth Oven_ by Kiko Dozer).

Like any hobby people who get deeply into it will tend to go to extremes, but you can use their research and blogs to get the end output with much less effort.

Cranky

I just read through Varasano's reviews. His dismissal of the Atlanta Pie-Bar "pizza" is a bit too haughty. Yes, the place is pretentious. But aside from the fact that their "pizza" is not pizza, it's actually good. If they didn't call it pizza, and called it something else, I don't think he would have been so p'd o'd about it.

I don't know about water, but atmosphere definitely does come into play with baking. For instance don't try pralines and certain cookies when it is too humid. Also, I can get Leidenheimer Baking Co. type bread anywhere but New Orleans and I can't help but thinking that along with the recipe, that the heavy atmosphere in New Orleans has something to do with how the bread rises/bakes.

Fabulous pizza can indeed be found in the NYC suburbs, spreading both north and east, all the way up to Boston, which also has pretty good pizza.

Bagels in Boston are, to my experience, wretched by comparison to NYC. Good bagels can be found in the burbs to the immediate north.

Also suggesting that water is a BS explanation: there are two very good bagel places on the east side of Columbus, OH. Strange but true. Not quite NY, but close.

And DC has no good pizza. (Yes, I have eaten at Pizza Paradiso and Vace, though Two Amy's is good--just a totally different style from the NY style pizza I long for.)

Parkway Deli on Grubb St. in Silver Spring has good bagels, but they don't bake them. I'm not sure where they come from.

But New York Pizza sucks.

My wife grew up there, and has dragged me to every pizzeria in existence and everything I've ever put in my mouth has been atrocious (and she grudgingly admits as much).

Ray's was unbelievably nasty.

I think the overall problem is the practice of making pizzas ahead, instead of to order, parking them under the grow lights, and reheating slices when ordered. This inevitably results in soggy crust and dried out toppings. Yuck.

My pizza isn't great but it is better than anything in NYC.

And DC has no good pizza. (Yes, I have eaten at Pizza Paradiso ...)

Since the name is "Pizzeria Paradiso", you just might be an inattentive sort.

"If water is key, then San Francisco should have the best pizza in the world, bar none. Hetch Hetchy water is far and away the purest, highest quality available through any big municipal system in the U.S. Since pizza in Providence is superior to any I've had in SF, I'm thinking water ain't the secret sauce. Not to denigrate Providence water, but it's not in the same league as SF's. "

SF's is pretty good water, but as other's have said, it's the mix of minerals. But I do think the water thing is BS: the effect of other ingredients (salt, baking soda, any calcium/magnesium salts added) is going to dominate over the minerals in the water. And, if you've got a very pure water input, you can add minerals to partially replicate those in the NY water.

More particularly, the guy evidently hasn't been to Zachary's in Berkeley. A $10 Bart return would set him straight, albeit with Chicago-style rather than NY-style.


Comments closed May 09, 2008.