« First HITS Event | Main | McCain Five Years Ago » More Things We Can Ignore23 Apr 2008 03:23 pm
Justin Logan tries to draw our attention to data indicating that anti-American sentiment is driven by specific American policies, but as I've said before we've spent years ignoring actual data about foreign public opinion and I don't see why we should stop now. They hate us because they hate freedom! Comments (55)
But where's the 'For our freedom' bar? Liberal survey bias! 
Well, if you living and stock options depend on convincing the country that it is always under military threat and that military solutions should be the first ones chosen in any foreign policy dilemma, then you do want to keep that anti-American hatred going. Otherwise you grow soft, and the Rambo testosterone fairy that visits the dreams of all good little right wingers when they are tucked into their beds starts looking pained and shocked. You can't do that to the action toys boy set.
Here's a suggested line of attack for all the undoubted wingnut posters who just have to say something about this obvious correlation between what we claim to believe and what our government does: Every week, I stop in a certain chain drugstore, and while waiting in line have noticed a poster advertising the chain's photo-finishing services. The central image is a photo of an amazingly soft, gentle, innocent Golden Retriever puppy. Well -- you know all those countries who don't like our policies? They hate Freedom so much they want Islamic fundamentalists to kill that puppy. I expect to see this exact line of reasoning to appear in a major foreign policy speech by McCain, a Kristol column or two, and to be heh heh heh hinted at by Brooks on The News Hour.
The remaining 8 percent hate us because they've only met Boston sports fans.
Massholes, or Boston fans in general? ;)
"Remember that one dude from a Muslim country a few weeks back insulting America for our nude beaches?" I don't, actually. But for what it's worth, Turkey has topless beaches. I know, I've been to them. And there are some pretty hot Turkish women at those beaches. I wonder what he has to say about that.
And there are some pretty hot Turkish women at those beaches. I wonder what he has to say about that. I think nude beaches are OK with Islam, as long as the women keep their faces covered.
Western Europeans = flaccid and useless. Wallowing in chronic unemployment and unwilling to wean themselves off the teat of cradle to the grave socialism. They are dying off through a lack of will to breed. The Muslim world = repressive basket case. Asians = racist exploiters of human beings. Latin America = economic basket case with a mass exodus to the US. Why are we concerned about foreign public opinion again?
Re DancesWithGoats, I see that Matt still gets the posters who love cutting-edge, fine-grained sociological analysis of other nations. The Enlightenment Lives!
They are dying off through a lack of will to breed. Did someone call the Charles Lindbergh Memorial Eugenics Institute again?
I know, I've been to them. And there are some pretty hot Turkish women at those beaches. How do you know those women were Turkish?
"I think nude beaches are OK with Islam, as long as the women keep their faces covered." The Quran is quite specific about the need for a women to cover their breasts when in public. But it makes no mention of covering the face (it does make mention of covering hair). The covering of the face comes from tribal traditions, not Islam. Islam is used to defend those tribal traditions, just as Christianity was used to defend slavery. But that doesn't mean that Islam really intends to defend those traditions (just as Jesus never intended to defend slavery). Islam is just being misused in those cases.
I know, I've been to them. And there are some pretty hot Turkish women at those beaches. How do you know those women were Turkish?
scottreads - I would be willing to bet that 98% of the posts lack cutting edge fine-grained sociological analysis of other nations. I will stick with my broad brush. Jemand von Niemand - Everyone of No One? What is that all about? Kind of hard to argue with statistics. I don't make the stuff up; I just call them as I see them.
"How do you know those women were Turkish?" Not all of them were. Turkey is a big tourist destination for middle class Europeans who can no longer afford to vacation in their own country. But I was traveling with some Turkish women (and their husbands, in some cases). And, believe me they filled out a bikini (or monokini) quite well.
Ha. Remember that one dude from a Muslim country a few weeks back insulting America for our nude beaches? A bunch of people started cheering these beaches on, only pissing him off more. I wonder if we created a new terrorist that day. Oh, nude beaches! Huh, I must have heard something else first time I heard that. Well, that certainly seems less insulting than I'd thought it was....
I just call them as I see them. Well, sort of... Your crazy, paranoid, white supremacist shit about Europe for instance didn't form based on some sort of serious attempt to study the subject. You went out looking for something and liked what you saw and repeat it.
Why are we concerned about foreign public opinion again? Partly because we owe them more money than we earn and still want to borrow more.
Wallowing in chronic unemployment... I guess you don't realize that Germany has a higher employment rate than the U.S. That's using a measure of employment, rather than using the bogus U.S. unemployment figure that conveniently tosses out those unemployed the longest. BTW, the employment rate under Clinton was much higher than under W. Bush just pushed more people off of the books.
The ideological roots of Al Qaeda go back to Sayyid Qutyb, who lived in the U.S. from 1948-1950 and actually did hate us for our freedoms and our values (or the lack thereof, as he saw it). He was especially offended by how men and women held hands and had other sorts of physical contact during church dances.
He didn't like boxing or our haircuts either, but that really doesn't have shit to do with why anyone would actually want to kill Americans.
And, believe me they filled out a bikini (or monokini) quite well. Wouldn't that just be called a speedo or a thong? And if they're not wearing a top, what exactly are they filling out? And if they hated us for our freedom, Amsterdam would be dust. (David Cross)
Ed Marshall - I am a whitish Hispanic. How can my disparaging comments about W. Europe be "white supremacist"? I formed my opinion after living in Europe for a total of eleven years, reading a lot and speaking to a lot of Europeans. It is a fact that native Western Europeans are not reproducing at replacement rates. Their governments are concerned about it. LFC - I can assure you that Germany does not have a lower unemployment rate than the US. As a whole, W. Europe has a much higher (double?) unemployment rate than the US.
Ed Marshall - I am a whitish Hispanic. How can my disparaging comments about W. Europe be "white supremacist"? I formed my opinion after living in Europe for a total of eleven years ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz....I don't believe any of that including the Hispanic part.
Actually large parts of the US population are hard to beat as far as sexual repression is concerned - not far off from the more doctrinaire Muslims really. Conversely the US is a major producer of hardcore porn - it's all a bit schizo, or, rather, two sides of the same coin.
Ed Marshall - that is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "I can't hear you, nanananananan". Surely you can do better than that. How about discussing the issue at hand instead of taking the lazy "label as a racist and dismiss" tactic of liberal debating?
Your attempt at a rebuttal was a biography and it's really, really annoying on the internet. In real life if you know someone didn't live in Europe ever they have their friend that did or they know a Canadian that is being tortured by their evil health system or whatever and the internet version of this horseshit is YOU become the friend. You just make up whatever you want. I'm not plugging my ears, tell me about the collapsing, muslim-overran, wasteland of Europe you witnessed. I'll even pretend to believe it's a true story.
and for further attempts at identity politics be aware that an actual Hispanic wouldn't see the contradiction you seem to find inherent in the idea of being a Hispanic white supremacist.
Western Europeans = flaccid and useless. Wallowing in chronic unemployment and unwilling to wean themselves off the teat of cradle to the grave socialism. They are dying off through a lack of will to breed. This is an opinion based on eleven years of living in the country called Europe? Hilarious.
Actually large parts of the US population are hard to beat as far as sexual repression is concerned - not far off from the more doctrinaire Muslims really. Saudi Arabia is the Texas of the Arab world. The whole thing is kind of eerie: the good-ol'-boys patriarchy, the SUVs, the oil, the sprawling suburban dystopias filled with alienated teenagers cruising around in Daddy's car. Except there aren't really any cows to tip, so the Saudi kids blow things up. Conversely the US is a major producer of hardcore porn - it's all a bit schizo, or, rather, two sides of the same coin. Exactly. The U.S. just doesn't accept sex as a normal part of life: sexualization is an all-or-nothing proposition. Our whole society has a madonna-whore complex.
Here in Australia we definitely hate you for your freedom. What do we have left to you for? We can't differentiate on foreign policy, since for the past 11 years ours has been set by the White House, and we can't differentiate much by values, since they're set by Hollywood. (hehe... my joke sounds a little *bitter* here. Oh well)
Barbar - Not sure what you are getting at. Europe is not a country. I lived primarily in Germany. Ed - Can I call you Ed? I doubt most Hispanics would care about contradictions inherent in white supremacy. At least you two aren't potty mouths. That would make this a lot less interesting.
Western Europeans = flaccid and useless. Wallowing in chronic unemployment and unwilling to wean themselves off the teat of cradle to the grave socialism. They are dying off through a lack of will to breed. The Muslim world = repressive basket case. Asians = racist exploiters of human beings. Latin America = economic basket case with a mass exodus to the US. Why are we concerned about foreign public opinion again? Posted by danceswithgoats | April 23, 2008 5:10 PM So much hate.
I lived primarily in Germany. Ah, well, as an actual German (as well as American) let me just put in my two Euro cents and tell you, my friend, that you're a raving loon.
Ed - Chew on this. This is the tip of the iceberg. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/27/world/main546441.shtml Enter "low european reproduction rate" in any search engine and see what you get. Yes, I see this as a problem. Bengt - I think I can honestly say I don't hate anyone. If you don't think that the Muslim world is repressive or that most Asian countries are racist and exploit human beings or that Latin America is suffering from economic malaise that drives their people to the US, I don't know what I can tell you. It isn't hate. It is fact. Sometimes the truth hurts; especially when it has sharp edges. BTW - your name looks Scandinavian. Any observations from your part of the world other than I am saying that you don't agree with so I must be hateful?
Stefan - You sound like a typical "Saupreusse". What am I looning about?
danceswithgoats: Matt's post was about a poll of what people in a number of countries, most of them in the Muslim Middle East (such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon) think about America. Most of those people (by far) were concerned with American foreign policy. In response to this, you for some reason posted a rant about how people live in other places of the world. How people live in the rest of the world has nothing to do with US foreign policy, unless you think Iraqis should be grateful for the current occupation, or the Saudis appreciate US support for their (dictatorial) rulers, or the Egyptians, ditto. The Lebanese also have a beef with how US policy supported the Israeli hammering of their whole country, a bit more than a year ago. The Moroccans probably feel sympathy with their fellow Muslims. The point of the poll result cited by Matt is that you will be judged by how you treat others, not by how you think about yourself, nor what values you have, or act on, in your home country.
Bengt - very astute. The original point of the post. I salute you. Contrary to MSM, according to the poll, more Arabs would be happy with us if we were to withdraw from the Arabian peninsula than withdraw from Iraq? More Egyptians would be happier with us if we withdrew from the Arabian peninsula then settle the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? More Saudis would be happier with us if we stopped support to Israel than withdrew from Iraq? Am I misreading the poll or should I discount it? Have you seen what passes for MSM in the Arab world? Nuttery, buffoonery and transparently false conspiracy theories. Individually I have found Arabs in the Middle East to be warm and intelligent people. If you get three or more in a room, especially from different tribes or countries, it descends into chaos.
Am I misreading the poll or should I discount it? Of course. The poll asks for top two responces. You aren't reading a preference you are reading a median response.
Contrary to MSM, according to the poll, more Arabs would be happy with us if we were to withdraw from the Arabian peninsula than withdraw from Iraq? More Egyptians would be happier with us if we withdrew from the Arabian peninsula then settle the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? More Saudis would be happier with us if we stopped support to Israel than withdrew from Iraq? What are you asking me for? Read the poll. Am I misreading the poll or should I discount it? Don't discount it.
I, too, am an American with dual nationality (the other being German) and also have observed that German employment law is much, much more restrictive than American law. The ultimate result is the removal of many unemployed Germans from Germany's highly politicized unemployment statistics. And let's, please, not mention the inherent racism in Germany, which would not be tolerated in America, that excludes children born of non-German parents in Germany as "foreigners," instead of practically welcoming them as natives as we do here in America. Unemployed Turks who are the second- or even third- generation offspring of Turkish parents residing in Germany do not count for the official unemployment statistics -- even if these receive unemployment benefits from the German government! But after Auschwitz, all full-blooded Germans are of course expected to be permanently forgiven of any racism -- it's simply not PC there ever since modern German identity was shaped by America and then blamed on America as a result of American occupation. Perhaps once the Turks take over, they will actually act to protect the Western culture and values that are today no longer fashionable in intellectually fashionable, Ami-Bashing post-modern Germany.
I'm surprised the results are only 80/12. The poll is basically asking "Are your attitudes based on legitimate grievances that we can appease or are the based on irrational bigotry that we can dismiss? What do you expect them to say? If you like this poll I can show you another that finds that 80% of felons say they are innocent and that 80% of breaker-uppers say that "it's not you, it's me."
The poll is basically asking "Are your attitudes based on legitimate grievances that we can appease or are the based on irrational bigotry that we can dismiss?" If they're interpreting it that way, doesn't that mean that they think it would be illegitimate to hate the U.S. for its "values"? And doesn't that leave us in the same place?
No, it means that they know their hatred of the U.S. would become illegitimate in our eyes and the eyes of others if the true reasons were known. The illegitimacy of feelings does not prevent us from having them, it is rather a motive for us covering them up. That is why this poll is so untrustworthy.
@ Stefan u. MarkG: Sehr richtig.
No, it means that they know their hatred of the U.S. would become illegitimate in our eyes and the eyes of others if the true reasons were known. The illegitimacy of feelings does not prevent us from having them, it is rather a motive for us covering them up. That is why this poll is so untrustworthy. Okay, see, I've lived for a while in various Arab countries (but not in Germany). I know a lot of actual Arabs. And I can tell you that they actually don't spend every minute of their lives scheming up ways to fuck with Americans. It's not like they all got together at their Secret Arab Clubhouse and figured out how to sneak into the World Trade Center using a Zogby poll as coer. They're people, not cartoon supervillains. Maybe, when they tell us how they feel, we should believe them. So maybe, when they say that they're pissed because we oppress and kill them, we should believe them. I'd be pissed, too.
Thomas Hulme wins the thread. Ed Marshall, look up the term "Nazi Low-Rider" if you think that there is no nexus between Hispanics and white supremacism.
Fred and the other white trash here think that everybody else in the world hates Americans JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD. They're not entirely incorrect, because all chimpanzees hate all other chimpanzees. As Fred and his white trash associates demonstrate here daily. But the notion that all these polls - in fact, there's an entire book out that polled thousands of people all over the Middle East and came to the exact same conclusions - are just coverups for "hate" - well, you have to be a total fucking moron to buy that notion. And Fred and the rest of the white trash here certainly qualify as morons. Their bottom line is: "we're good, everybody else is bad". This is chimpanzee thinking at its purest. Which is why you chimps have no future - because you're doing to apply that same thinking to Transhumans - and we're going to fucking exterminate you. And I for one intend to enjoy it, despite that not being a really Transhumanist attitude. So sue me.
Bravo Richard, for telling it like it is.
They are dying off through a lack of will to breed. Just worth repeating. Very funny.
Barbar - you're welcome. Hey Hack - you need to get out of your mother's basement and quit posting if you plan on exterminating anyone. You remind me of "Kip" in "Napoleon Dynamite". He spends his days talking to hot babes online and training to be a cage fighter.
For a guy with the handle "danceswithgoats" to be giving me advice is pretty funny. And my mother's been dead for twenty eight years. And who the hell is "Kip"? And why should I care?
Because Kip had a hot girlfriend.
Hack - excuse me if I discount the ravings of anyone who threatens the extermination of "chimps". If you were in a stadium in Nurnberg with 10 million people screaming your name I would be concerned. As you appear to be some sort of techie in SF, I choose not to be alarmed.
Comments closed May 07, 2008. |
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Heads in the Sand
Ha. Remember that one dude from a Muslim country a few weeks back insulting America for our nude beaches? A bunch of people started cheering these beaches on, only pissing him off more. I wonder if we created a new terrorist that day.
Posted by 55 | April 23, 2008 3:43 PM