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Objectives

28 Apr 2008 02:42 pm

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Via Spencer Ackerman, Fred Kagan's mad as hell that folks like me don't know what "victory" in Iraq is supposed to mean:

Virtually everyone who wants to win this war agrees: Success will have been achieved when Iraq is a stable, representative state that controls its own territory, is oriented toward the West, and is an ally in the struggle against militant Islamism, whether Sunni or Shia. This has been said over and over. Why won’t war critics hear it? Is it because they reject the notion that such success is achievable and therefore see the definition as dishonest or delusional? Is it because George Bush has used versions of it and thus discredited it in the eyes of those who hate him? Or is it because it does not offer easily verifiable benchmarks to tell us whether or not we are succeeding? There could be other reasons–perhaps critics fear that even thinking about success or failure in Iraq will weaken their demand for an immediate “end to the war.”

For an article that's full of dishonest propaganda, Kagan actually does a pretty good job of exploring the issue here. The fact that his definition of success doesn't admit of any sort of benchmarks really is a serious problem with it. And, indeed, the fact that it's a dishonest and delusional vision also counts against it in my view. At the heart of the problem is that Kagan's vision is contradictory and absurd. Given the contradictions involved in mixing various kinds of procedural and substantive criteria, any development whatsoever can be portrayed as bringing us closer to success.

Given that there is no viable political movement in Iraq that embodies this vision of a unitary, U.S.-aligned, democratic Iraq any advance by any turn of events embodies it just as well as anything else. The hawks haven't failed to produce some words they claim define success, they've failed to produce a realistic notion of success. There only interest is in whining about defeatism on the idea side and ginning up fairy tales about how wonderful everything will be if only the mean ol' war critics will stop pointing out that the mission has long ago become pointless.

U.S. Army photo by Sgt Tim Ortez

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Comments (58)

The basic problem is that whether or not Iraq follows that path isn't up to the U.S. military--it is up to the Iraqi people. So as a definition of what would constitute a military victory in Iraq, it kinda sucks, seeing as how that isn't a military mission at all. Indeed it isn't a future the U.S. can force on Iraq by any means at all, which one would think was rather obvious.

Success will have been achieved when Iraq is a stable, representative state that controls its own territory, is oriented toward the West, and is an ally in the struggle against militant Islamism, whether Sunni or Shia.

Odd that he left out the part about every Iraqi child getting their very own pony.

Shorter Kagan: victory = ponies. Why can't you damn liberals understand that?!?!

"Success will have been achieved when Iraq is a stable, representative state that controls its own territory, is oriented toward the West, and is an ally in the struggle against militant Islamism, whether Sunni or Shia."

What if the last two are at odds with "representative state"? And why is "oriented toward the West" in there anyway? "We've given you freedom...to do exactly what we want."

It all kind of makes me think of a line from Miller's Crossing: "Johnny, you're exactly as big as I let you be, and no bigger, and don't forget it, ever."

Success will have been achieved when Iraq is a stable, representative state that controls its own territory, is oriented toward the West, and is an ally in the struggle against militant Islamism, whether Sunni or Shia.

Odd that he left out the part about every Iraqi child getting their very own pony.

"Success will have been achieved when Iraq is a stable, representative state that controls its own territory, is oriented toward the West...."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What if they clear up a few pesky issues (such as Westerners bombing and strafing the fuck out of their people and infrastructure) and announce they think China, India and the rest of the "East" is the direction they'd like to be oriented? We continue to occupy and kill them? How is it any of our goddamned business which direction they're oriented? Geez.

Wait...we've already eliminated capital gains taxes in Iraq. Won't all of Kagan's goals just follow naturally?

I'm struck by the lack of definition of the phrase "is oriented toward the West."
what does that entail? free-markets that allow the u.s. to control their economy? love and kisses in the direction of Israel? anyone know?

besides to achieve an Iraq that " is a stable, representative state," requires more than holding elections. how about a free and independent media? how about a justice system that isn't totally corrupt? are we going to impose woman's rights and gay rights? how far should we go?

of course, the idea that any of these goals can be met thru military means is ridiculous.

Shorter Kagan:As soon as Iraq is a new Israel we'll have won.


Actually I'll judge this war a success if the fools who pimped for it are never seen as credible authorities on anything again.

I've commented about this hilarious quote on another blog, but I can't resist repeating myself. I think this part "...is oriented toward the West" is simply hilarious, considering that the Bush administration's idea of oriented towards the West is to protect in power the Da'wa party, which showed its affection for the West in 1983, when it collaborated with Hezbollah in blowing up the American embassy and marine barracks in Beirut. Meanwhile, Kagan's policy has exiled that group of Iraqis - the professional and middle class - whose life styles would actually orient them to the West. Although as they watch what is happening in Damascus and Amman, I doubt they are thinking I HEART America thoughts.

To use the ever popular right wing analogy to WWII - it is as if, after occupying Germany, the Americans decided they needed to find the most anti-Nazi Germans around to rule their section, and so they imported the Communists from East Germany. That's how utterly brain dead the right is. D.C. people like Kagan simply fantasize history and apply their absurd ideas to the Middle East - and leave the cost of it, in blood and money, to others. It would be nice if Kagan's name was so cursed after this that anything he associated with would be overshadowed by it. But of course, in a media run by minions of the kleptocratic class, that ain't gonna happen.

Actually I'll judge this war a success if the fools who pimped for it are never seen as credible authorities on anything again.

Kagan's wish list is more realistic.

Why won’t war critics hear it? Is it because they reject the notion that such success is achievable and therefore see the definition as dishonest or delusional?

Uh, well, yeah. I mean, if the standard were simply representative governance, that'd be one thing. But requiring specifically pro-western policies to emerge from that democratic process? C'mon. It may happen, it would be nice if it would happen, but it is simply one possibility among many. And in placing that demand on the process, we're undermining it.

Success will have been achieved when Iraq is a stable, representative state that controls its own territory, is oriented toward the West, and is an ally in the struggle against militant Islamism, whether Sunni or Shia.

* Stable: just a few weeks ago, the central government was trying to resolve internal political disagreements through military force.

* Representative: are they ever going to hold those elections they keep postponing?

* Controls its own territory: that's a long way off, no matter how you slice things.

* Oriented towards the West: Ahmadinejad gets a warm, public welcome; U.S. officials have to fly in unannounced.

* Ally in the struggle against militant Islamism, whether Sunni or Shia: every Shi'ite faction in Iraq, including the current government, is allied with Iran, which we seem to consider part of militant Islamism.

We're a long, long way from that pony, and we haven't gotten discernably closer in the past five years. Why should the next five be any different?

Actually, I think Kagan's thesis statement is:

Virtually everyone who wants to win this war agrees...

which means "either you agree with me, Fred Kagan", or "you are a nobody who hates the U.S. and wants to lose a war".

That is the point, and everything else is just a list of phrases which the virtually everyone who is anyone will repeat.

Why won’t war critics hear it? Is it because they reject the notion that such success is achievable and therefore see the definition as dishonest or delusional?

Uh, well, yeah. I mean, if the standard were simply representative governance, that'd be one thing. But requiring specifically pro-western policies to emerge from that democratic process? C'mon. It may happen, it would be nice if it would happen, but it is simply one possibility among many. And in placing that demand on the process, we're undermining it.

I don't know what victory is either, but for five years I've been keeping tabs and I haven't seen it yet.
I just added three more deaths to the list at iCasualties.
Three soldiers killed from indirect fire.
As Ackerman would say...
so tomorrow there will be another number
for the one who had a name
a desert wind and a perverse desire to win
history buried in shame

Pudge's mistake is in the first sentence where he links the two words "Iraq" and "state"

What's amazing about Kagan's series of "Is it because..?" questions is, as Matthew suggests, the answer to many is yes, and it's a wonder to many of us that he can assume such responses are beyond the pale.

Good article from Kagan. It's clear that success, as defined, is achievable. Indeed, we've made great progress toward success already:

Stability - we have, of course, made great strides toward stability in the past year or so, both militarily and politically. The military side is so obvious as to not even need explanation. The strides we've made on the political side are not quite as striking, but are impressive nonetheless. We see, for example, last week that the Sunnis were so impressed with the recent legislation in paliament and Maliki's successful military action against Sadr that they are willing to return to the cabinet. Now, mind you, Matthew was of the opinion just a few weeks ago that Sadr had "checkmated" Maliki. Now it is apparent that Matthew doesn't know what he's talking about, but that the operation against Sadr has been both a military and a political success. No reason to think this can't continue.

Representative government - a lot of progress was made a few years ago in the first election, and the coming provincial elections in October should be even more representative, given that Sunnis appear to be largely participating. The national elections in 2009 should tell us more about the progress on this front.

Control of territory - the progress of the Iraqi Army has been pretty impressive. As noted above, the operation against the "special group" in Basra and elsewhere has been quite successful - which people like Matthew refuse to accept. Indeed, the port areas now appear to be controlled by the central government, rather than the armed gangs. This success will have to duplicated elsewhere, of course.

Oreintation towards the West - no rason to think this won't be the case.

Ally in the war on terror - already occurring, given how much Iraqis now abhor al Qaeda.

The explanation for why war opponents continue to refuse to accept any definition of success, no matter how realistic, to me is fairly obvious: they don't want the US to succeed. The war opponents would prefer that the US loses the war, so as to validate their own political positions. This isn't really that difficult to figure out.

As I noted above - Matthew said only a few weeks ago that Sadr had "checkmated" Maliki. The truth is the precise opposite. Which should tell you all you need to know about Matthew's understanding of the Iraq situation.

The explanation for why war opponents continue to refuse to accept any definition of success, no matter how realistic, to me is fairly obvious: they don't want the US to succeed. The war opponents would prefer that the US loses the war, so as to validate their own political positions. This isn't really that difficult to figure out.

[sound of laughter like a burst balloon]

"A definition of success no matter how realistic"

We've begged Bush (et al) to contrive a definition of success. Declare it. And then get the hell out. But Bush doesn't want "success". He wants war.

I think the unrealistic nature of the success criteria is a feature, not a bug, from the hawk point of view. Since their argument mostly focuses not on how they are going to achieve success, but rather on the fact that leaving constitutes defeat. SO, with unrealistic success criteria, it will never be the case that we've succeeded and so can leave. Instead, leaving means failure now, and it will still mean failure in 5 years when a relatively stable but despotic and government which is anti-Israel and sympathetic towards Iran finally takes shape.

If you create success criteria that are achievable, then you run the danger of succeeding and having to leave, which is the last thing Kagan actually wants.

Al, I agree with everything in your post. Perhaps the question should be put back to the anti-war crowd. How do they define success? Withdrawing, by any account, cannot be considered success. It can be considered saving face, or saving money, or protecting our own soldiers. But it is not winning. So what is winning to those who are against the war?

Al is hilarious. This assessment is almost Colbert-level parody.

Except it's not parody. I know.

Al,

Are you even reading what you wrote? This is not exactly a comforting plan for a key element of victory: "no r[e]ason to think this won't be the case."

And by the way, there is plenty of reason to believe Iraq will not end up "oriented towards the West", and that indeed such a goal is fundamentally incompatible with Iraq being a democracy.

Traditionally, wars are won when the victors declare victory and go home. That would be fine for me. No question Saddam lost and the US won.

Unfortunately Kagan's defintion, on the other hand, defines victory as actions taken by another government and people that in no way even mentions military action.

So who is it that can't conceive of victory in any meaningful sense?

So what is winning to those who are against the war?

Dying in a state of grace.

The war opponents would prefer that the US loses the war, so as to validate their own political positions. This isn't really that difficult to figure out.

I will probably go to my grave wondering how someone of reasonable intelligence could possibly think something so vile.

Seriously. My current guess is that it is a form of narcissism; someone that believes this is guessing at how they might feel if they thought they were on the wrong side of the debate. I'm surprised to hear this from Al -- this is the sort of trope that usually comes from the hysterical likes of Ann Coulter/Michelle Malkin (and worse).

No, Al. Being unconvinced of progress is not the same as wishing for failure.

Does "territory" include airspace, and when are we going to allow Iraq to have an air force?

Zarco,

That is sort of an absurd question. For example, I would say the United States is fighting in a civil war in Iraq, and of course the United States can't win a civil war in Iraq--that would be like saying Spain could have won the American Civil War.

That said, from a political perspective I think it would be in the interests of the anti-war crowd to note it was an achievable victory for the United States military to remove Hussein from power, even though it was not possible for the United States military to dictate what happened afterward in Iraq.

And since we did in fact remove Hussein from power, we can declare "mission accomplished!" And with that mission accomplished (for good or ill), it is now long past time to leave.

Success in Iraq probably resembles success playing a slot machine. The player enters the casino announcing to his friends he's going to win. He confidently plugs in a few dollars, sometimes winning back a few but incremently falling behind. Once he realizes the magnitude of his losses leaving becomes unthinkable. He has to win now. Leaving means admitting defeat, the ridicule of his friends and abandonment of a situation that was surely just getting ready to turn in his favor. Just a few more dollars, a few more pulls of the lever........

"Stability" is incompatible with the presence of US troops. Yet, according to this definition of "success," US troops cannot leave until Iraq is stable.

Bullsmith pointed out the other inherent flaw with this definition of success.

Perhaps the question should be put back to the anti-war crowd. How do they define success? Withdrawing, by any account, cannot be considered success.

Actually, I don't care about defining success. For five years we've been pissing money down a rathole in Iraq trying to engineer some kind of friendly and stable regime, and it's not happening. It's time to cut our losses, admit the project was a stupid idea from the get-go and pull all the troops out.

An interesting array of responses. James doesn't care, Grumpy feels paradoxically, Steve is a gambler, and DTM tries to answer honestly.

DTM, interesting thought, that even considering what "victory" means is absurd. I disagree with the civil war analogy, but even if that's the case-I suppose it'd be between Al Qaeda and the Iraqi's-you really don't think we have any skin in the game? It's the same for long-term US security no matter by whom the game is won? I think we certainly do.

Grumpy, why can't there be stability? We still have troops in Germany and South Korea after those respective wars and they're both quite stable.

Steve, gambling has no inherent good. Our inherent good, whether you agree with it or not, is to 1)make Iraq a stable nation so its people can prosper and 2)make America safer, but probably in the reverse order. So I'm not sure how your analogy fits either.

An interesting array of responses. James doesn't care, Grumpy feels paradoxically, Steve is a gambler, and DTM tries to answer honestly.

DTM, interesting thought, that even considering what "victory" means is absurd. I disagree with the civil war analogy, but even if that's the case-I suppose it'd be between Al Qaeda and the Iraqi's-you really don't think we have any skin in the game? It's the same for long-term US security no matter by whom the game is won? I think we certainly do.

Grumpy, why can't there be stability? We still have troops in Germany and South Korea after those respective wars and they're both quite stable.

Steve, gambling has no inherent good. Our inherent good, whether you agree with it or not, is to 1)make Iraq a stable nation so its people can prosper and 2)make America safer, but probably in the reverse order. So I'm not sure how your analogy fits either.

Crap, sorry 'bout the double post, darn Macs.

The Marines came up with the plan to put the Sunni insurgency on the payroll prior to the surge even starting and Sadr for tactical reasons called a truce and simply waited it out.

The military progress is not obvious, outside of press releases it is not even visible. All we get is some vague metrics about attacks being down as compared to some even more horrific period in the past.

Back in 2003 and 2004 it was understood that the only really safe place in Iraq was the Green Zone, hence its name. You could walk around without body armor by day, you could sleep comfortably at night. In 2008 flak jackets are mandatory and people are instructed to stay away from windows as the place is mortared on a regular basis.

We are not winning when the combination of the Iraqi government and the US Army together cannot fully protect the seat of government.

Before the war or perhaps just after it started Cheney was asked what our response would be if free elections returned an Shi'ia Fundamentalist dominated government. His simple answer "That is not going to happen" that is he was drinking from the same pitcher of magical happy juice that Al and Zarko are, only by redefining 'free elections' as 'rigged in favor of Ahmed Chalabi' or perhaps 'Ayad Allawi' could you ever expect to get a result different than the one today. A free Iraq will be an Iranian friendly Iraq, that was clear from the very beginning. Hell for that matter al-Sistani is Iranian.

There is no definition of success in this case, there never was. Clear sighted people saw that and said that at the time, we all just got written off as DFHs. To have people who have gotten everything wrong for FU after FU for more than five years to turn around and self-righteously ask:
"Perhaps the question should be put back to the anti-war crowd. How do they define success?" is to draw the only logical response: 'FU' and I am not referring to Tommy Boy.

Some things can't be fixed. If you smash a one of a kind crystal piece its gone. If you burn down one or another building of the Smithsonian its gone. To have the vandals and arsonists turn around and say 'What's done is done, lets move forward' and blame you for not having a better answer is kind of maddening.

War supporters lost this war for us by letting themselves be led by the nose by people who by late 2002 had clearly shown themselves to be incompetent at what should have been their central goal: tracking down and killing Osama and his top aides. Instead we outsourced Tora Bora to some corrupt Afghanis who then proceeded to let him go. We lost this war right there and then. George wanted to get his war on so bad he let al Qaeda spit right in our faces in Afghanistan. And had cheering fanboys insisting that no it was just gentle mist.

And by the way those same fanboys were pointing to Afghanistan not to long ago as some huge success story. Well that is not working out too well either.

You don't have to like the fact that America started off the New American Century by losing two wars. I know I hate the fact that for most practical purposes we no longer have the ability to fight two and a half wars (the traditional definition of military readiness) because Bush and Cheney took the military they inherited from Clinton and broke it into bleeding chunks in the sand. Nobody likes losing but at some point you have to check out the scoreboard.

We lost, it sucks. Now lets get our team home so they can heal, be reequipped, and be prepared to face actual national security risks instead of phony wars of choice. There is no Hail Mary, there is no buzzer beater to be had here. At this point the Washington Generals have better odds of beating the Globetrotters than having this 'game' play out as anything recognizable as 'success'.

"Steve, gambling has no inherent good."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nor does maiming and killing thousands of innocent people in order to prevent Saddam from maiming and killing thousands of innocent people.

To misquote "The Life of Brian" - "All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, free elections and public health, what have the Americans ever done for us?" "Nothing!"


Why won't my detractors understand that my new exercise routine will be a success when I am "buff" and/or "super hot". This has been said over and over. Why won’t my critics hear it? Is it because they reject the notion that such success is achievable and therefore see the definition as dishonest or delusional? Is it because I have used versions of it and thus discredited it in the eyes of those who hate me? Or is it because it does not offer easily verifiable benchmarks to tell me whether or not I am succeeding? There could be other reasons–perhaps critics fear that even thinking about success or failure with regards to my hot bod will weaken their demand for an immediate “end to Libarbarian's strutting around the gym with a sock stuffed into his bicycle shorts".

Zarco,

Whatever "inherent good" you see in Iraq, war opponents see war as an inherently bad. It is mass murder, sorry, and is only justifiable by necessity usually defined as self defence. Thus "victory" in wars happens when they end. The Iraq occupation is a colonial exercise and Kagan's description of victory describes little more than a vassal state aligned with America's interests regardless of it's own.

Hence, in my mind, Kagan's 'victory' is defeat: defeat of Iraq's ability to determine it's own affairs and orient itself toward,say, the Middle East.

So for me "victory" occurs when the US regains it's moral footing, stops pretending that unprovoked aggressive wars and endless occupatoins are "inherently good" and that the people of Iraq only have as much say in the future of their country as people like Fred Kagan will allow them.

To misquote "The Life of Brian" - "All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, free elections and public health, what have the Americans ever done for us?" "Nothing!"
Posted by danceswithgoats | April 28, 2008 5:16 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ummm, WTF? Last I checked various measurements of medicine, sanitation, public order, fresh water, roads, irrigation, public health (not to mention electricity) were severely deficient as compared to pre-invasion levels. Again, WTF is the point of your post?

Wow, so the US is the Washington Generals? It must be depressing if you that. Bruce, you basically say "it's not possible, so FU for even asking the question." That's not particularly productive for civil discourse.

Nothing I can say can make any difference if you take a "this is not debatable, Iraq is irreparably broken." The people on the ground in Iraq disagree with you.

Zarco,

First, no, the civil war in Iraq isn't between "Iraqis" and "Al Qaeda". It has more than two sides, they are all "Iraqis", and Al Qaeda actually isn't one of the major players.

Second, it is actually darn hard figuring out which of the plausible winners of the Iraqi civil war would be best for the United States, or if a unified Iraq is even in our interests (e.g., the Kurds are probably the most pro-American bunch, and it may well be better for us in the end if the Kurds go their own way--or not, considering the Turkey situation).

Third, again it doesn't really matter because we can't dictate the path the Iraqis will take in the long run. At most, we can temporarily keep our favorite Iraqis from losing a civil war, but we can't really determine a winner (in part because there is no side that really has a large enough coalition to win), nor even guarantee Iraq survives as a nation. And again, there is also no guarantee that even if our current favorite Iraqis actually won and ruled an intact Iraq, they would end up fulfilling all the hopes and dreams of people like Al or Kagan.

So, it is long past time to get out and let the Iraqis determine their own fate ... as they will do sooner or later, with the only question being how much money and blood we will spend delaying that time.

and if this seems impractical and war critics do not think this is too achievable...we can stay a thousand years if necessary. Let them pansies put THAT in their pipe and smoke it. (ed. note: Kagans are tough. Very tough),

For Kagan and co, we are an empire so we make our own reality. Once you understand this it become a whole lot more understandable that, in the real world, his benchmarks are simply meaningless.

If Iraq is left alone it seems quite likely Sadr would take power, or support someone who did. The Kurds may go it alone.

As for "oriented toward the West", there are two ways to make people change their minds using force, when they don't want them changed. You can kill them, and you can torture them. It is a quite Troskyist idea that you can change everything by force, including people's minds.

Britain, France, and others fought mightily to have their occupations accepted by the natives. All failed.

MY:

If a genie popped out of a lamp and told you he could grant you a victory in Iraq, what would your Iraq look like?

In rejecting the partition option, Kagan assumes that partition means ethnic purity. It doesn't. If diversity is possible in Iraq, then it's possible in three mini-Iraqs.

In rejecting the partition option, Kagan assumes that partition means ethnic purity. It doesn't. If diversity is possible in Iraq, then it's possible in three mini-Iraqs.

"It all kind of makes me think of a line from Miller's Crossing: "Johnny, you're exactly as big as I let you be, and no bigger, and don't forget it, ever."

A Miller's Crossing quote is never out of place!

Some of this neo-con double talk reminds me of another quote.

"You're so goddamn smart. Except you ain't. I get you, smart guy, I know what you are. Straight as a corkscrew. Mr. Inside-Outsky. Like a goddamn bolshevik, picking up your orders from Yegg Central. You think you're so goddamn smart." ... "Down is up. Black is white. Well I think you're half-smart."

"Virtually everyone who wants to win this war agrees ..."

What an absurd snake-like weaselly way to begin a sentence.

Is this the "grown up" "serious" way to write? Who wants to lose this war?

Who lost it?

These guys are all dodging blame - when they should be dodging subpoenas/

I think Al, Zarco, and a few others lay it out pretty well--for those who think the US is an evil hegemonic power that can't do anything good in the world; and for those like Matt who never really had any idea what the war was all about (when it started, over what, etc.) in the first place, victory is a confusing concept.

For those of us who realize that the we went to war in 1991 due entirely to the egregious behavior of Ba'athist Iraq, it's pretty clear that a reasonably democratic, reasonably pro- (or at least not anti-) Western Iraq in any of several possible configurations that's at peace with its neighbors and pumping oil, is an reasonably likely outcome which amounts to "victory", for us and for the Iraqis.

As ever, Jesus of Nazareth comes across as a puffed-up tool with a broomhandle up his arse. The idea that Bobble was privy to some special knowledge of the motivations then and now is absurd on the face.

At least Al can be amusing at times. Pomposity trolls are never so.

The reason Bush went to war in 2003 is best described as 'Just Because'. The conditions that Fred Kagan counts as 'victory' are 'finding the pony' and 'shut up and let me plan more wars'.

I'm with those who think a suitable outcome includes the Kagan Kalamity Klub and large baskets of rotten fruit.

It is not pomposity to point out the shocking amnesia in otherwise intelligent people regarding events in Iraq 1991-2003. This is hardly "special knowledge", although it is inconvenient for those who imagine that our long-running conflict there was ginned up from thin air by a clique of deviants in the first Bush Administration.

It is astonishing pomposity to imagine all this history can be reduced to "Just Because". But then, there's a lot of that here, mostly reflected in grand statements about exactly what Iraqis want (and even who they are), exactly how they are going to relate to each other and to the neighbors, etc. based, apparently, only on reading anti-American websites.

It will be interesting to see how the upcoming Iraqi elections go. Perhaps if there is progress as a result, as is likely; Bush leaves office without attacking Iran, as is virtually certain; and the next President continues to honor our responsibilities in Iraq, also virtually certain--some of those posting here with such certainty about our inevitable failure in Iraq will reconsider....naahhh.

So Robert, your argument is that the war has actually been going on for 17 continuous years now, but finally victory is at hand, only it's the left who can't see reality.

How convincing.

It is not "my argument", but an irrefutable fact that the war begun in 1991 pursuant to UNSCR 678 was not in any meaningful way ended until the fall of Baghdad in 2003. Resolution 687 "suspended but did not terminate" it, and was subsequently violated in a comprehensive fashion by Iraq, as were the assorted additional and related Chapter VII Resolutions. We are currently in Iraq under a unanimous UN mandate at the express request of the elected government of Iraq, which is the most legitimate in the Arab world.

Between 1991 and 2003 we deployed many tens of thousands of service personnel (many of us collecting combat pay), and spent many tens of billions of dollars enforcing the sanctions that killed perhaps a million innocent Iraqis according to UN records, with the perverse effect of tightening the regime's grip on power and enriching its collaborators. Check with any of these folks and/or their families about when during this period the war ended. Good luck.

It's not altogether clear to me that "victory is at hand", but it's a hell of a lot closer than it was when we had an overt enemy in the form of a genocidal police state sitting on the key real estate of the region producing most of the oil and most of the terrorism.

Shorter Fred Kagan: "Victory in Iraq will have been achieved when I find the Pony. Not before."

(tip-of-the-hat to Atrios, of course)


Comments closed May 12, 2008.

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