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Small Town Research

18 Apr 2008 11:13 am

Larry Bartels compares the political behavior of people who live in small towns, make less than $60,000 a year, and don't have college degrees (the "small town working class") with those who live in cities or suburbs, make more than $60,000 a year, and do have college degrees:

Do small-town, working-class voters cast ballots on the basis of social issues? Yes, but less than other voters do. Among these voters, those who are anti-abortion were only 6 percentage points more likely than those who favor abortion rights to vote for President Bush in 2004. The corresponding difference for the rest of the electorate was 27 points, and for cosmopolitan voters it was a remarkable 58 points. Similarly, the votes cast by the cosmopolitan crowd in 2004 were much more likely to reflect voters’ positions on gun control and gay marriage.

Small-town, working-class voters were also less likely to connect religion and politics. Support for President Bush was only 5 percentage points higher among the 39 percent of small-town voters who said they attended religious services every week or almost every week than among those who seldom or never attended religious services. The corresponding difference among cosmopolitan voters (34 percent of whom said they attended religious services regularly) was 29 percentage points.

When you get down to it, this is about what you would expect. As people get more affluent, their votes are based more an airy ethical concerns -- religious views and things like environmentalism or concern for gay rights loom larger -- whereas people facing larger objective economic struggles tend to focus more on the search for solutions to their economic problems.

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In other words, Obama was blowing smoke to a bunch of gullible San Franciscans.

When you get down to it, this is about what you would expect.

Maybe, but it sure is the opposite of what we are told. We are constantly reminded of 'real American' values voters, with the implication that small town America cares a lot more about gay flag burning abortionists that don't wear lapel pins than they do about anything else.

My dad is a farmer, and he voted for Bush mostly based on a comparison of the Bush and Kerry farming policies. While I don't agree with his decision-making process, given it he did make the correct decision. I don't know much about other rural concerns, but for farm policy Bush kicked Kerry's ass.

It's actually not what I'd expect, to be honest. Look, from the earliest years of our country, even before the revolution, elites have co-opted poor people to focus on non-economic concerns (such as white supremacy, nativism, religious bigotry), because not to do so may be harmful in both the short- and long-run. This is why populism died out, and a small part of why democratic labor parties never existed in here.

It's actually not what I'd expect, to be honest. Look, from the earliest years of our country, even before the revolution, elites have co-opted poor people to focus on non-economic concerns (such as white supremacy, nativism, religious bigotry), because not to do so may be harmful in both the short- and long-run. This is why populism died out, and a small part of why democratic labor parties never existed in here.

In other words, Obama was blowing smoke to a bunch of gullible San Franciscans.

It's humorous to see a security-state "libertarian" use the phrases gullible and blowing smoke.

I think Bartels is dead wrong on this topic. We're now to believe that small town rural voters are somehow so sophisticated that they really vote for their own self-interest? Who's kidding who here? Take away guns, religion, and homosexuality from the Republican play book and their entire political structure crumbles.

"When you get down to it, this is about what you would expect. As people get more affluent, their votes are based more an airy ethical concerns -- religious views and things like environmentalism or concern for gay rights loom larger -- whereas people facing larger objective economic struggles tend to focus more on the search for solutions to their economic problems."

Funny. I'd think that universal healthcare would be an "ethical concern".

But for a trust fund scumbag like Matthew Yglesias, that's only a concern for poor people to worry about.

I'd say Matthew has scummy ethics.

I haven't done a poll or anything, but I'm pretty sure the urban Mexicanos who make up the vast majority of my neighbors tend to vote overwhelmingly liberal despite tending to hold pretty conservative social views.

Seriously, religion and environmentalism are "ethical concerns", while universal healthcar is only something that people facing economic struggles should be worrying about?

What a dysfunctional ethical compass trust fund scumbag Matthew Yglesias possesses.

In short, for Yglesias, poor people are on their own. The inherited wealth class only has to worry about God and the environment.

People who live in small towns, make less than 60,000/yr, and don't have a college degree are probably pretty darn likely to vote for Democrats.

Compare them to their >$60k/yr college educated neighbors, and I bet they're voting Republican in much larger numbers, even though, as middle class people, they'd benefit from Democratic policies as much as their poorer neighbors.

Worth noting Google's verdict on who the #1 trust fund scumbag on Planet Earth is.

Congrats, Matthew. Take a bow.

Now you can authoritatively tell the 45 million Americans without health insurance to go fuck themselves. They're certainly not an "ethical concern" of folks like you.

I've always espoused a cocktail-party theory vaguely along these lines, kind of a Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs-based account of electoral decision-making.

"In other words, Obama was blowing smoke to a bunch of gullible San Franciscans."

Because Obama’s own knowledge base is infallible and just everybody knows tons about how lower income people vote and why? Knowledge of this trend is so widely available that the New York Times had to stoop getting some nobody Princeton professor to explain it to everybody.

Hahaha, Petey google-bombed you in your own comments. That is pretty hilarious, even though obviously he has gone crazy.

And so how does one gin up admiration for a guy like Obama who manages to be both condescending and objectively wrong in the same moment?

I mean, it's bad enough to look down on people because you are prejudiced against their values. It's quite another major step to make up facts to support those very prejudices.

Count me among the skeptics. Your analysis, like Bartels's, assumes that small-town working class people actually base their votes on informed decisions about frequently complex economic issues in an age when sophisticated politicians know how to sell all sorts of policies as "people-friendly." To be sure, they're typically much less open in their preference for cultural considerations in choosing candidates; nonchurchgoing rural and small-town voters will vote more closely to their churchgoing neighbors because they're less likely to be ideologically secular than, say, your typical progressive blogger [There are gobs of good, Godfearing folk who'd just rather go fishing on Sunday], and more likely to take cues from their neighbors. But in fact most people use cultural markers to determine whether they can trust X to be "straight" with them. Thus the lady who's obsessed with the flag pin; the policy debates are way over her head, so she's looking for some way to determine which of these people she can actually trust, and she thinks the missing flag pin is telling. Few people will tell pollsters that they make their choices in this way, because they think it will reflect on their intelligence, or even that it will make them look bigoted. But many do, even "cosmopolitans." There are reasons, after all, why people like Paul Krugman or Sean Wilentz [both really smart guys] think Obamamaniacs are nutso; they're convinced in the end that they haven't chosen their candidate on the basis of any consideration of the "issues" [on which, for good reason, they think Clinton superior], but on the basis of "character" signals and temperamental affinities. I think they're wrong [but then I'm in the Obama camp too], but they're not as wrong as Obamaites like to think.

Jesus Christ, Petey, you've been trolling the past few months for that? All you've done is give him an nice icebreaker for any new female tapped interns he has his eye on the next time he finds himself single. Please tell me you have a better reason for pretending Clinton's universal mandate is actually universal healthcare.

The problem here (as it is in many instances) is, I think, over-generalization. Thomas Frank's What's the Matter with Kansas? provided a ready explanation for decades of Republican political dominance nationally as well as in the proverbial heartland. Problem is, it's always difficult to divine what moves voters even in local elections, so larger trends are even more suspect. Frank does make some compelling claims about Kansas--having been raised there myself I can attest to the rightward slide over the years, from Kassabaum and Dole to Brownback and to the evangelical-heavy state offices and school boards. (The backlash against The Backlash is cleaning some of that out, though.) Still, the Give 'Em God and Take Their Money explanation overlooks a long tradition of self-reliance and traditionalism that Republicans made room for (I'm thinking of Dole here again). Kansans really liked Kassabaum and Dole (among others), and not because they got everyone to look at the bible instead of their bank statements. Once your start voting Republican (or Democrat), it's hard to stop. But that's a local story.

The point is: Things are complicated.

The problem here (as it is in many instances) is, I think, over-generalization. Thomas Frank's What's the Matter with Kansas? provided a ready explanation for decades of Republican political dominance nationally as well as in the proverbial heartland. Problem is, it's always difficult to divine what moves voters even in local elections, so larger trends are even more suspect. Frank does make some compelling claims about Kansas--having been raised there myself I can attest to the rightward slide over the years, from Kassabaum and Dole to Brownback and to the evangelical-heavy state offices and school boards. (The backlash against The Backlash is cleaning some of that out, though.) Still, the Give 'Em God and Take Their Money explanation overlooks a long tradition of self-reliance and traditionalism that Republicans made room for (I'm thinking of Dole here again). Kansans really liked Kassabaum and Dole (among others), and not because they got everyone to look at the bible instead of their bank statements. Once your start voting Republican (or Democrat), it's hard to stop. But that's a local story.

The point is: Things are complicated.

Please tell me you have a better reason for pretending Clinton's universal mandate is actually universal healthcare.

Or that the issue is 1-1 for determining whom to vote for. HRC has the Clinton baggage that they'd jettison anything when it's politically expedient.
A lot of people just don't trust her or believe her. She can promise the moon, but her record is skimpy. (And Bill often promised the moon but backed/delivered a lemonade stand.)

My question about Bartel's analysis is whether he included race as a factor. African-Americans, as we all know, vote overwhelmingly for Democrats no matter whatever view they have of abortion or regularly attend church. They, and Hispanics, are disproportionately represented among the under 60,000 group.

My guess is that stratifying the analysis by race would mitigate, though not overturn Bartels conclusions. Also, I wonder about regional factors, Franks thesis may be true in Kansas, but not in Maine.

Speaking of small-towns, Pres. Bush is on Limbaugh right now.

Chirstopher, pretending to be knowledgeable about stuff which you are clueless, is what I call "blowing smoke". That's what politicians do, and it is a constant source of amazement to me that people think that because a politician is skilled rhetorically (as Obama usually is, with the "bitter" remarks being an exception) he or she has any idea of what they are talking about. These people usually don't know what they are talking about, and they just vary in skill as to how well they hide it. God forbid that one of them ever say "I really don't know", and I mean that as more a criticism of the electorate than the politicians.

Good points by AJ.

What AJ said.

Failure to account for race and geography make the conclusion dubious at best.

I think about 20% of the total rural population is non-white. In the rust belt, it's almost entirely white, and yet in the deep south it's almost entirely African American. In the southwest it tilts Hispanic.

I don't see how you can declare the Franks thesis invalid without looking at the specific demographics and geographical areas he was talking about.

Too broad a brush here.

I was thinking along the lines of A.J. also and I'm surprised Matt didn't pick up on this. "Cosmopolitan" voters will tend to have higher incomes and should (if it was all that mattered) vote Republican for their tax cuts for the wealthy. "Rural" voters will have smaller incomes and should favor Democratic tax policy. However, NY, NJ, CT, MD, and CA are the bluest states. KS, MT, et al, are the reddist.

Not all cosmopolitan voters are rich though and neither are all rural voters poor. Thus, the whole analysis is silly.

People who live in small towns, make less than 60,000/yr, and don't have a college degree are probably pretty darn likely to vote for Democrats.

Well, in 2004 Bartels says that a "slender plurality" of them in rural areas went for Kerry. Also in 2004 exit polls, $30,000 to $50,000 household income whites without college degrees went for Bush by twenty points or so.

All Bartels is disproving here is a caricature of Frank in which poorer people are more Republican than richer ones--which I don't think anyone seriously argued. But there is clearly a significant chunk of voters of modest means who seem to be voting against their interest. I don't agree with Frank's causal explanation for the phenomenon, but Bartel's denial of the phenomenon's existence is just plain absurd.

"Or that the issue is 1-1 for determining whom to vote for. HRC has the Clinton baggage that they'd jettison anything when it's politically expedient."

Well, yeah. I love how well-informed, apparently smart, people believe that Hillary Clinton--who will make you buy health care by garnishing your wages--can deliver on health care reform, especially since her track record isn't exactly the best on the issue. No way the gop can demogogue that issue--I'm sure they just ran all out of meanness after that swift boat thing. Nor has she proven herself to be anything other than a complete failure of a manager in the past few months. And she's already lost anyway. For all the crap Obama supporters have recieved, nothing can top the delusion of Hillary and her supporters.

Also in 2004 exit polls, $30,000 to $50,000 household income whites without college degrees went for Bush by twenty points or so.

WOW. It's really hard to conceive of how Bartel is justifying his claims based on that, unless he's saying that those voters voted on the basis of their PERCEPTION of their economic interests.

Another factor is the decision which must be made about what level of prominence a factor must have before it's "significant".

So, if Bartels / Krugman are right, lower income voters are less responsive to the social distraction appeals etc.

But their response isn't zero.

And given that there are a lot of people in these lower economic categories, you don't have to reach a majority, much less all of the socioeconomic segment before having an important electoral effect.

I don't follow every breath Obama exhales, but I don't think he suggested that a majority or near majority of poorer socioeconomic groups feel this way. Maybe he did, though, and I failed to notice it.

So far I'm at better than 90% in predicting which threads Petey will troll. Try it, it's fun!

Will Allen,

No offence, but you couldn't be more wrong.

Obama was talking about people in a specific place: Pennsylvania and in particular its dying mill and coal towns. He was pretty dead on.

James Carville once famously described the state as two Northern cities (Phillie, Pittsburgh) with Alabama in-between. That describes the culture, but doesn't even begin to get at the economic and social devastation.

Again -- Obama was talking about a specific place, got it?

Thomas Frank's argument has been woefully oversimplified. His real point, if I recall correctly, was that for the last 30 years the Democrats have failed to provide an economic argument that is compelling to small town America - on any economic issue that small town America cares about - trade, health care, protecting local businesses, anti-trust, taxes - the Democratic party is essentially indistinguishable from the Republicans or viewed as even more hostile. So naturally small town America is going to vote values instead and the Republican party has managed to appear more sympathetic to small town Americans than the Democrats. The alternative small town America is looking for is an economically liberal socially conservative party - maybe something along the line of a European Christian Democratic party, basically the nightmare of every bien-pensant in the media or DC.

Exactly MY. This is exactly what has been happening in India - without too much to show for in results, however - every few years the "unwashed" masses will throw the rascals out. Only new rascals replace the old ones. Rinse and repeat.

It also explains how status-quo'ism and conservatism becomes the norm for the more confortable. Things have to get much worse, as they have "hopefully", to have change in more developed nations.

-- r

Matt concludes: whereas people facing larger objective economic struggles tend to focus more on the search for solutions to their economic problems.

i don't buy this when you see that poor states are red states. if poor white people really voted on issues of economic well-being they'd be voting for democrats overwhelmingly. i don't see the evidence that this is the case.


Excellent post, Vanya -- but the problem with Franks' argument is that he undersells how much some people really, really care about abortion.

It's interesting to note the people Obama was talking about voted for the genuinely scary Rick Santorum. He was Pennsylvania's more horrific senator's until he was finally replaced (thanks in large part to Philadelphia, its suburbs and Pittsburgh) by the pro-life democrat Bob Casey. (Imagine a successful pro-life Dem in New York or New Jersey! Harry Potter seems more realistic.)

Indeed, the party these people would love to support would be pro-life, virulently pro-guns, virulently anti-immigration, virulently anti-trade, anti-Wall St. and open to things like universal health care and government projects. The guy who comes closest to such an ideal, the dreaded Pat Buchanan. Though these people aren't as isolationist with foreign policy yet. In part due to talk radio and Fox and the like. Mike Huckabee is another.

Anyway, a lot of people feel very strongly about abortion.

If you're a single mom working at Walmart and you vote against your economic interests because you view abortion as murder . . . well, that's hard to sneer at.

Franks like Matt isn't comfortable rocking "the progressive coalition" (too often just upperclass indie-rock-listening males and their upper-class feminist girlfriends) by recognizing just how strongly many feel about this particular issue.

I don't agree with Frank's causal explanation for the phenomenon, but Bartel's denial of the phenomenon's existence is just plain absurd.

I agree. Here's a Ruy Teixeira quote from a 2005 issue of The American Prospect that Frank cites:

Among non-college-educated whites with $30,000-$50,000 in household income, Bush beat Kerry by 24 points (62-38); among college-educated whites at the same income level, Kerry actually managed at 49-49 tie. And among noncollege- educated whites with $50,000-$75,000 in household income, Bush beat Kerry by a shocking 41 points (70-29), while leading by only 5 points (52-47) among college-educated whites at the same income level. Conclusion: the more voters looked like hardcore members of the white working class, the less likely they were to vote for Kerry in the 2004 election. That's a problem--a big problem--that Democrats have to take quite seriously.

And I see Krugman takes up Bartel's bullshit this morning but what do you expect from a couple of academics from a second-tier Ivy League school.

And Petey, these folks are not the base of the Dem. party. If you want to argue Clinton will get a higher percent of these voters than Obama, knock yourself out. Otherwise, you are a stupid hack.

Tyro,

It's really hard to conceive of how Bartel is justifying his claims based on that,

I think he bases his claim on ignoring that piece of data.

unless he's saying that those voters voted on the basis of their PERCEPTION of their economic interests.

I don't think he is, but smarter people have (sort of).

Well, James, that's pretty odd, since I believed he used the term "midwestern".

Frank's point, at least a bunch of it, was that the Republicans have become very good at making tax cuts part of the culture war, and he wanted to see how that kind of promise things about abortion pull out the football and pass some tax cuts on rich people nonsense was able to be sold. It's a very good book.

Thomas Frank's argument has been woefully oversimplified. His real point, if I recall correctly, was that for the last 30 years the Democrats have failed to provide an economic argument that is compelling to small town America - on any economic issue that small town America cares about - trade, health care, protecting local businesses, anti-trust, taxes - the Democratic party is essentially indistinguishable from the Republicans or viewed as even more hostile. So naturally small town America is going to vote values instead and the Republican party has managed to appear more sympathetic to small town Americans than the Democrats. The alternative small town America is looking for is an economically liberal socially conservative party - maybe something along the line of a European Christian Democratic party, basically the nightmare of every bien-pensant in the media or DC.

The McClatchy profile of the lapel flag pin lady is a quite interesting addition to this general topic and what made me think of it the comment by "David in Nashville" above @ 11:55 AM where he says the policy debates are way over her head, so she's looking for some way to determine which of these people she can actually trust, and she thinks the missing flag pin is telling.

David's comment has a lot of good stuff in it, like about some of the god-fearing preferring going fishing on Sunday rather than to church. I don't know if I agree with the "way over her head" wording, though. Judging from experience with my mother, a child of immigrants with only a high school education but an outstanding emotional I.Q., I think some people just are more empath thinkers rather than analytics, and it's more like they trust certain cues over fancy talk. My mother would be different in that she was a bleeding heart liberal and skeptical about jingoism. This woman, it seems to me, is not jingoist either, but is trying to judge by whether the person makes a big deal over something symbolic in refusing to wear a standard thing male politicians wear. She's looking for what he thinks is important to make a stand about and what, on the obverse, he's willing to do to get things done. From her very hard life story, you know she knows that one has to give up some personal preferences in ideology sometimes. (Even I, about as pro-global-cosmpolitan as you can get, can understand why patriotism questions are quite applicable for someone asking to become the leader of a nation state.)

artappraiser, mostly I agree with your assessment of Ms. McCabe. However, I think you're missing the fact that it's not about the flag pin, per se, it's about the fact that she thinks Obama is being "arrogant" and acts like "everything is easy for him" when he says, "yeah, I stopped wearing it." Ms. McCabe, and many Americans, are not in any kind of position where they can defy the cultural/aesthetic/fashion demands of their community and workplace simply because "they feel like it."

Ms McCabe likely has to wear all sorts of silly things at work (pieces of flair?), and for someone to basically say he's flouting the conventions of his own work environment is considered uncouth, even if he's in the right. She may even go so far as to believe that aceding to these sorts of silly demands is considered "showing respect."

I dispute that this is a person with high "emotional IQ." I would say just the opposite.

Also, people with a high school education can also be extraordinarily well-read, so this isn't a matter of education vs. EQ.

I dispute that this is a person with high "emotional IQ." I would say just the opposite.

I think it's wrong to talk about "high" or "low" emotional IQ, it's just two different approaches to the world, where symbols have two different sets of meanings. Obama values cool-headed detachment and wisdom, McCabe values seriousness and tenacity.

To Obama, mindlessly following the herd to wear the flag pin or aping rhetoric like "massively retaliate" aren't just kitschy "flair", they contribute to a culture of jingoism that threatens to kill actual people in the future. Symbols mean things. It's not that he doesn't care about the American flag or an attack on Israel, it's that he's trying to maintain the detachment necessary to see the wise path. (Frankly, he should have tried a lot harder to do that in the last debate).

To McCabe, not treating the flag with respect (and while we shouldn't read too deeply into just a few brief quotes, it seems like it's Obama's nonchalance about the pin more than his not wearing it that bothers her.) and not having put in as much effort or show as much grit as Hillary has demonstrates that he can't be relied upon. It may or may not be the symbol so much as the conviction that he's prepared to put behind the symbol.

Interpreted this way, I have to say, McCabe's argument against Obama makes a lot more sense than Paul Krugman's cheerleading for the fruits of the Clinton/Gingrich political equilibrium of the nineties.

Re: if poor white people really voted on issues of economic well-being they'd be voting for democrats overwhelmingly.

Poor white people do vote Democratic overwhelmingly. We aren't talking about the poor here, but about working class and lower middle class people. And in many small towns the cost of living is very low so that even 30K is a decent income. I'd also bet that if you looked at individual voters you'd find those voting GOP in that income bracket have fairly secure jobs and decent health insurance too.

And in many small towns the cost of living is very low so that even 30K is a decent income.

The point isn't that 30K is unbelievably poor (it's not much below median), the point is that it's low enough to have benefited from Kerry more than Bush. The bulk of Bush's tax cuts were aimed way higher.

That said, The 30K to 50K white uneducated group probably includes lots of retired folks on fixed incomes, for which a Bush vote was somewhat more economically logical.

Worth noting Google's verdict on who the #1 trust fund scumbag on Planet Earth is.

Congrats, Matthew. Take a bow.
Posted by Petey | April 18, 2008 11:44 AM

To not-quite-quote David Dellinger, if you had any sense at all you would know that that Google result that you cite condemns you and not Matthew Yglesias.


Comments closed May 02, 2008.

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