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Talking to Hamas

11 Apr 2008 03:42 pm

To wend a bit of a middle path between Messrs. Klein and Chait, I think it's perfectly reasonable for an American president to say that he wouldn't have any diplomatic talks with Hamas as long as that's Israel's position as well -- after all, what would they talk about? Hamas can't make concessions to the United States nor is there much of anything the United States would concede to Hamas. So in that sense, Barack Obama's refusal to expand his generous meetings policy to Hamas is both defensible policy and a good cheap talk way of saying something that "pro-Israel" folks like.

The more meaningful question facing an American administration would be what kind of counsel/pressure/whatever they give to the government of Israel regarding holding talks with Hamas. The Bush administration, in line with their general approach to the world, has always signaled unconditional support for Israel's preconditions for dealing with Hamas, even though it was the Bush administration that engineered Hamas' rise to power. It seems to me that the reasons it's smart for the U.S. to, as Obama suggests, negotiate in a meaningful way with countries like Syria and Iran are roughly the same as the reasons why it would be smart for Israel to negotiate with Hamas without preconditions. Whether or not Obama agrees with that or communicates those sentiments to the Israelis is the more substantial issue.

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Comments (34)

Nobody in Israel is going to accept that it might be smart to negotiate with Hamas "without preconditions," due in no small part to the fact that Hamas doesn't want any such negotiations either. It would not be smart for any U.S. president to pursue a fantastical policy that has no chance of working.

What would make sense is for a U.S. president to push for some sort of negotiations with realistic preconditions. It is not realistic, nor reasonable, to expect Israel to accept direct negotiations with Hamas unless Hamas agrees to forgo violent attacks as a policy. But it would be pretty reasonable to get rid of another precondition that Bush has accepted: that Hamas should recognize Israel before any negotiations begin. It would also make sense to stop opposing any efforts to reconcile Hamas and Fatah into a Palestinian unity government, which the Bush administration has actively tried to undermine at various times.

Obama has occasionally made comments that indicate a willingness to support indirect negotiations between Israel and Hamas to reduce violence, but he has also stated his support for demanding that Hamas recognize Israel up-front. Whether he would be willing to forgo that precondition is probably the key point in this whole debate.

What would they negotiate about? How best Hamas can "obliterae it"?

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

To be consistent, I want some serious posts by Matt about how Obama should negotiate with Bin Laden.

It seems to me that the reasons it's smart for the U.S. to, as Obama suggests, negotiate in a meaningful way with countries like Syria and Iran are roughly the same as the reasons why it would be smart for Israel to negotiate with Hamas without preconditions.

It would be very smart for Israel to negotiate with Syria, and vice versa. When the Israelis made their intentions known that they wanted to do just that, it was the Bush administration that told them not to - just about a year ago.

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4190

Wait a minute, "...nor is there much of anything the United States would concede to Hamas..."
Isn't that how every peace agreement in the area has been agreed to in the past? America promising money, development, etc. to the various players to calm down the rhetoric?
Egypt certainly was no friend to Israel before the money started to flow in '79 or so.

There's not much for Israel to concede to Hamas either, since it already gave it all of Gaza (in return for a promise of continual rocket fire, I guess). Perhaps these negotiations could have a different tack: instead of starting from the premise of Israel giving up land, Hamas could negotiate a series of concessions to dissuade Israel from taking back the land.

There will be no progress towards a *Peace Agreement without including Hamas in the talks. Hamas is a legitimate Resistance Organization fighting an Apartheid Terror State bent on a *Final Solution (albeit one slower than the Nazis) for its *Palestinian Problem. When Jerry Springer contemplated a run for the U.S. Senate in Ohio - he expressed a willingness to conduct peace talks with Hamas. Are we going to let lying, treasonous, "friends of Israel" determine what's good for America, Or is the yardstick by which we measure our national interests the Joe Lieberman mantra: "Is it good for the Jews?" As James Baker eloquently said years ago: "Fuck the (motherfucking) Jews!" What about the other 294,000,000 Americans? Do they not count?

Mr. Yglesias should inform us as to what he thinks that Hamas and Israel should negotiate about. Since the Hamas position is that the Government of Israel agree to go out of business and the Israeli position is that it has no intention of going out of business, it would seem that there isn't much room for compromise here. Given the latest terrorist attack on the fuel terminal near the Gaza border, it would appear that the Hamas Government in Gaza isn't much interested in improving the situation for the Palestinians therein so promises of aid from the EU and/or the US would seem to provide little traction for an agreement.

However, the proposed meeting between James Earl Carter and Khalad Maashal paradoxically, could provide a possible opening here in the unlikely event that Carter could persuade Mr. Maashal to release the Israeli soldier that Hamas kidnapped last year. I would suggest, however, that the readers of this blog not hold their collective breaths.

Re Trevor

Mr. Trevor favors talking to Hamas because he agrees with their position, namely that the State of Israel agree to go out of business. I have a flash for Mr. Trevor, alleged son of a federal judge probably appointed by James Earl Carter. It ain't going to happen. Don't like it; Mr. Trevor is cordially invited to go fuck himself, after he finishes fucking his mother.

"The Hamas position" is borne out of necessity. Israel is a Terror Apartheid State that's picked up where the Nazis left off in its treatment of 3 million innocent helpless Palestinians. Are they supposed to say: "Oh, well, they're murdering our children for sport, starving us out, burning and looting our homes, stealing our land...I guess there's room to negotiate with these fine, cuddly-wuddly Jews. They're wonderful people. I'm sure they mean well."?

Gershom Gorenberg writes in The American Prospect writes about an interview last week with Khaled Meshaal, the Hamas chief in exile in Damascus:

Asked by Al-Ayyam reporter Abdelrayuf Arnaout if Hamas sought to eradicate Israel, Meshaal answered: "We are committed to the political platform on which we agreed with the other Palestinian forces and in convergence with the Arab position" - meaning the Arab League proposal for full peace with Israel, based on the pre-1967 lines. "All the international parties," Meshaal said, should treat this as the Hamas position, and not "search in the minds of peoples" for their feelings.

That sounds pretty close to the official US position to me - perhaps too close for those who don't really want a solution.

have a flash for Mr. Trevor, alleged son of a federal judge probably appointed by James Earl Carter. It ain't going to happen. Don't like it; Mr. Trevor is cordially invited to go fuck himself, after he finishes fucking his mother. (SLC)

Nixon, schmuck. And, let's not be biliously resentful. Just because your shitty. little country you give your puerile allegiance to is the pariah of the world which will eventually cause its only friend the good ol' USA to abandon it for the sake of World Peace is no reason to turn into Larry David.

Trevor: I usually roll my eyes when neocon gasbags blather about the so-called "anti-Semitism of the Left." Are you an actual specimen or a clumsy parodist? Or perhaps a devious neocon troll, because if I wanted people to think that opposition to Israel really does equate to anti-Semitism, I'd write something along the lines of your comments above.

SLC: Where do you get off complaining about Trevor? He is an (apparent) anti-Jewish bigot; you're an anti-Arab, anti-Muslim bigot who thinks calling his fellow human beings "ragheads" is cute. A pox on you, too.

Re Gator90

1. Given that Mr. Trevors' father was appointed by the late and unlamented President Nixon, I would say that he is probably not of the left.

2. Mr. Gator90 is somewhat confused. As my Syrian friend Ammar Kanaan says, Dr. SLC is prejudiced against everybody. As Mr. Reality Man says, Dr. SLC doesn't much like Israelis either, considering them to be obnoxious.

Re Trevor

1. Mr. Trevor is certainly an optimist. Polls show that support for the State of Israel is at an all time high in the US, unfortunately reflecting the antipathy toward the Muslim world because of the activities of Mr. bin Laden. Obviously Mr. Don Williams efforts to claim that Mr. bin Laden was justified in attacking the US because of Israeli beastliness toward the Palestinians has found very little resonance.

2. Mr. Trevor has, on numerous occasions, denounced the State of Israel as an apartheid nation. Considering the fact that there are some 1 million Arabs living in Israel and few of them seem to have any interest in moving to the Palestinian territories, it would appear that the accusation is somewhat overbroad.

Re ndn

Unfortunately, the position of the so-called Arab peace plan demands that Palestinians currently living in refugee camps be resettled in Israel. Of course Mr. Maashal supports such a plan since it satisfies his demand that the Government of Israel go out of business. It's a nonstarter and ain't going to happen no how, no way.

They could begin by tossing out the two-state 'solution' and work towards writing a constitution based on individual rights instead of communal rights. They could negotiate a joint security presence, and give no leeway to violence in its wake, from either side. They could talk about how they can elevate the traditions and heritage of Jews, Muslims and Christian, Israelis and Palestinians, in their mutual homeland. They could discuss how they can work together instead of how to undermine the 'other'. But they should start it soon, or the US president in 2050 will be mulling over the problem still. By then, however, the US may not be recognizable.

Re The Other Alan

The chances of a one state solution working are slim and none and slim is on the bus headed out of town. A one state solution in Palestine has no more chance of working then a one state solution in the former Soviet Union or the former Yugoslavia. Perhaps the best advice was provided in the 1960s by a former UN peacekeeping official in Palestine, the Irish diplomat Conor Cruise O'Brian. Mr. O'Brian said that the best approach the rest of the world could take would be to let the parties fight it out. When they got tired of fighting, they might be amenable to a negotiated solution.

"Perhaps the best advice was provided in the 1960s by a former UN peacekeeping official in Palestine, the Irish diplomat Conor Cruise O'Brian. Mr. O'Brian said that the best approach the rest of the world could take would be to let the parties fight it out. When they got tired of fighting, they might be amenable to a negotiated solution."

The world would be a poorer place without the wisdom of the Irish.

SLC states that "Polls show that support for the State of Israel is at an all time high in the US..." but consider that as late as 2005, a Harris interactive poll found that 44% of Americans believed that the hijackers of 9/11 were Iraqis. (http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=544).

Certainly some of the support by Americans for Israel found in the polls is based upon an inadequate understanding of the Mideast conflict (and how could it be otherwise, given the terrible coverage of the conflict by the media); some is based on Christian Zionist propaganda; some, as noted, has to do with a conflation of Islamic terrorists with the rest of the Muslim world. Using evidence based on American's ignorance of foreign affairs to bolster one's arguments isn't very convincing, in my view, and further, it's clearly not what responsible foreign policy decisions should be based upon.

Not sure whether MY's position makes a lot of sense. I thought we had diplomatic relations and held talks with states and their governments. After jaw-boning them into it, the Palestinians held elections, kicked Fatah out, and voted Hamas in. And because another state doesn't like the ruling party we won't talk to them? Hmmmm.

SLC, does that mean we could stop giving Israel billions and billions of dollars a year and just walk away?

Why should Israel concede anything to Hamas?

Why should we concede anything to N. Korea?

Have you dolts learned nothing since WW freakin II?

Amazing that we ever elected Carter and are about to elect a Carter-squared who thinks we should go crawling on our knees to the Hamases and Irans and Chaezistas of the world

Why should Israel concede anything to Hamas?

Why should we concede anything to N. Korea?

Have you dolts learned nothing since WW freakin II?

Amazing that we ever elected Carter and are about to elect a Carter-squared who thinks we should go crawling on our knees to the Hamases and Irans and Chaezistas of the world

I think it's perfectly reasonable for an American president to say that he wouldn't have any diplomatic talks with Hamas as long as that's Israel's position as well -- after all, what would they talk about?

Not huge great gobs, that's for sure. But the US could reassure Hamas that if they reach an agreement with the Israel, that we won't attempt to sabotage it in any way. The money we give Israel gives us a fair amount of leverage, even as the scary image of muslim terrorists gives Israel some leverage in the States. Telling Hamas that we're willing to let the two sides come to an agreement without undue influence from us would probably be a good thing.

Matt ignored this piece I sent him.

So here it is:

I keep telling you guys Obama is clueless when it comes to foreign policy. He talks a good game, but his "specifics" are non-existent.

Obama Triangulates and Won't Go Where Other Great Americans Will on Hamas
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-clemons/obama-triangulates-and-wo_b_96150.html

Money Quotes:

"A leading Knesset Member in Israel who strongly favors Senator Obama if he had the chance to vote in the U.S. elections told me recently that his one fear about Obama is that in his quest for the White House, he will ultimately have to shed his pragmatic approach to problem solving and demonstrate to critics "that he will be more Israeli than the Israelis."

To establish a context, look at this roster of great Americans -- all national foreign policy leaders, military leaders, former government officials, and public intellectuals -- who have been able to go where Barack Obama seems unable.

They all signed a letter at the time of the Annapolis Summit to President Bush and Secretary of State Rice that said that:

' As to Hamas, we believe that a genuine dialogue with the organization is far preferable to its isolation; it could be conducted, for example, by the UN and Quartet Middle East envoys. Promoting a cease-fire between Israel and Gaza would be a good starting point.

While he didn't sign our letter, Colin Powell has also said that Hamas should not be isolated and must be engaged.

The roster of American leaders who led the letter are:

BRENT SCOWCROFT, ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, THOMAS PICKERING, CARLA HILLS, LEE HAMILTON, THEODORE SORENSEN, ERIC SHINSEKI, NANCY KASSEBAUM BAKER, and PAUL VOLCKER.

Others that are included on the roster of signatories are:

US AID Deputy Administrator HARRIET "HATTIE" BABBITT, former USIA Chief JOSEPH DUFFEY, former US Senator GARY HART, former US Senator LINCOLN CHAFEE, RAND Corporation Board Member and New America Foundation/American Strategy Program Chair RITA HAUSER, former Assistant Secretary of State JAMES DOBBINS, former State Department Policy Planning Director MORTON HALPERIN, former Deputy Ambassador to the UN WILLIAM VAN DEN HEUVEL, former Israel Foreign Minister SCHLOMO BEN-AMI. . .

former US Senator BIRCH BAYH, former Congressman and Corning CEO AMO HOUGHTON Jr., former National Intelligence Council Chairman ROBERT HUTCHINGS, Fletcher School Dean and former U.S. Ambassador STEPHEN BOSWORTH, former Assistant Secretary of Defense LAWRENCE KORB, former American Political Science Association President and Columbia University professor ROBERT JERVIS, Kings College Terrorism Chair and New America Foundation Senior Fellow ANATOL LIEVEN, former National Security Agency Director Lt. General WILLIAM ODOM. . .

Committee for the Republic President WILLIAM NITZE, Brookings Visiting Senior Fellow DIANA VILLIERS NEGROPONTE, Former CIA Deputy Director JOHN McLAUGHLIN, former US Ambassador JOHN MALOTT, former EU Commissioner for Foreign Relations CHRISTOPHER PATTEN, former National Intelligence Officer for the Near East PAUL PILLAR, former US Senator LARRY PRESSLER, former US Ambassador FELIX ROHATYN. . .

MIT Center for International Studies Director RICHARD SAMUELS, retired Marine Corps General JOHN J. "JACK" SHEEHAN, Princeton University Woodrow Wilson School Dean ANNE-MARIE SLAUGHTER, Former Congressman STEPHEN SOLARZ, former First USA Bank CEO and Adagio Partners CEO RICHARD VAGUE, Former US Senator and UN Foundation President TIMOTHY WIRTH, and former US Ambassador and AIG Vice Chairman FRANK WISNER. . .

former New Jersey Governor and Environmental Protection Agency Administrator CHRISTINE TODD WHITMAN, Nixon Center President and National Interest Publisher DIMITRI SIMES, former National Security Advisor to Vice President Al Gore LEON FUERTH, Brookings Senior Fellow PHILIP GORDON, former US Ambassador to NATO ROBERT HUNTER, former Malaysia Deputy Prime Minister ANWAR IBRAHIM, former CIA Deputy Director JOHN McLAUGHLIN. . .

former State Department Chief of Staff LAWRENCE WILKERSON, Lehman Brothers Managing Director THEODORE ROOSEVELT IV, former US Ambassador JOSEPH WILSON, former Chief Monitor of the Middle East Roadmap at the Department of State JOHN S. WOLF -- among others.'

What is his position today if not one that has been influenced by special interests whose political weight has undermined the strategic interests of the United States?"

"What would make sense is for a U.S. president to push for some sort of negotiations with realistic preconditions. It is not realistic, nor reasonable, to expect Israel to accept direct negotiations with Hamas unless Hamas agrees to forgo violent attacks as a policy. But it would be pretty reasonable to get rid of another precondition that Bush has accepted: that Hamas should recognize Israel before any negotiations begin."

Why would Hamas agree to that? Hamas has only two bits of leverage it can bring to the negotiating table: 1) promising to stop attacks and 2) promising to recognize Israel. If we adopted these pre-conditions, Hamas would have no chips and thus no incentive to meet with Israeli officials. Gaining 1 and 2 should be the Israeli goal of negotiations. Basically your formulation would give the Israelis the main things they want ahead of time (thus giving them no reason to really negotiate) and giving Hamas nothing, thus seeing that they would have no ability to negotiate. Nobody likes what Hamas is or does, but their power, support, the futility of using military force to defeat them once and for all and their ability to commit violence are all realities that have to be dealt with in part through negotiations. If you were a Hamas official and someone offered you this deal as a path to negotiations, would you take it? Of course not. Any deal you can think of where you can't put yourself in such a position in the other person's shoes and see yourself in such a position accepting your deal is doomed to failure.

Re Reality Man

The difficulty with Mr. Reality Mans' approach is that he is assuming that the Hamas demand that the Government of Israel must go out of business is just a negotiating position. Unfortunately, the evidence indicates the contrary. The folks in Hamas are serious people and they have made it clear time after time that they will never accept the State of Israel as it currently exists. Unlike Mr. Reality Man, I believe that the folks in the Hamas leadership are serious people who mean what they say and say what they mean. In fact, since the Hamas leadership thinks they are winning, why should they concede anything? They believe that well meaning people like Mr. Reality Man, the folks who Mr. Hack mentions, and antisemites like Mr. Trevor and Mr. Don Williams will ultimately prevail. Speaking of Mr. Don Williams, it is interesting that Hiam Saban, the man who he claims is pulling the strings on Senator Clinton, is one of those who has the delusion that talking to Hamas is a good idea.

Re justinb

The answer is that the US should phase out aid to Israel. Period, end of discussion.

Re scottreads

This was a perfect example of the total incompetence of our erstwhile Secretary of State Rice. She is the one who insisted on the PA holding an election, despite being warned not only by the Government of Israel but also by Mr. Abbas, the President of the PA that such an election would result in a Hamas victory. I suppose that some might argue, as with General Powell, that we broke it, now we have to fix it. Unfortunately, it's not clear just how we should go about fixing it. One thing is clear, namely that neither the Government of Israel nor Mr. Abbas have a clue as to how to go about fixing it.

"The difficulty with Mr. Reality Mans' approach is that he is assuming that the Hamas demand that the Government of Israel must go out of business is just a negotiating position. Unfortunately, the evidence indicates the contrary. The folks in Hamas are serious people and they have made it clear time after time that they will never accept the State of Israel as it currently exists. Unlike Mr. Reality Man, I believe that the folks in the Hamas leadership are serious people who mean what they say and say what they mean."

Mao thought that the communists were winning the Cold War and was willing to be nuked by the US as part of his plan for world revolution and he probably meant that. By your logic, Nixon and Kissinger should never have gone to China. If you think Israel can militarily beat Hamas without that conflict creating an even worse group, you're dreaming. Meanwhile, Hamas has no capacity to force the end of Israel. Are Hamas's leaders really crazier than Mao? Mao took a good deal when he was given the chance, so why would Hamas be any different? Hamas isn't Hitler in the 1930's. Hamas is even Salazar in the 1930's.

Re Reality Man

1. Mr. Reality Man is obviously quite ignorant of the situation in China in the early 1970s. The fact is that, at that time, Chairman Mao was senile and just a figurehead in the Chinese leadership. The real power was wielded by Chou en Lie, the nominal foreign minister, and his colleagues in the Chinese Politburo. These folks were more pragmatic then Mao, just as it appears that Raul Castro is more pragmatic then his brother, Fidel.

2. Mr. Reality Man is convinced, despite the evidence, that Mr. Maashal, the Hamas leader in exile in Damascus who is really calling the shots for Hamas, is a pragmatic individual. Unfortunately, his statements suggest otherwise.

3. Mr. Reality Man thinks that Hamas has no capacity to force the Government of Israel to go out of business. That may be so but I would suggest that the leadership in Hamas is not in agreement with his assessment. If there are Chou en Lies in the Hamas leadership, they appear to be keeping a very low profile indeed. The Maashals and the Haniyehs are the ones running the Gaza Strip.

"Mr. Reality Man is obviously quite ignorant of the situation in China in the early 1970s. The fact is that, at that time, Chairman Mao was senile and just a figurehead in the Chinese leadership. The real power was wielded by Chou en Lie, the nominal foreign minister, and his colleagues in the Chinese Politburo. These folks were more pragmatic then Mao, just as it appears that Raul Castro is more pragmatic then his brother, Fidel."

Zhou Enlai, as his name is spelled by anyone who has studied these things since 1979, was not that powerful at the time. In fact, during the Cultural Revolution Mao's Red Guards had seized the foreign ministry, which was supposed to be run by Zhou. Zhou's role was more damage control and trying to hold onto power post-CR. He did wield some influence, but he was still vulnerable vis-a-vis Mao (Mao's final days, which followed Zhou's death, saw him shut down public mourning of Zhou, yet growing Sino-American ties still moved forward). Mao was one of the people that agreed to meet with Nixon and agreed to the framework for moving forward with restoring Sino-American relations. Even after Nixon left office, he would go and visit Beijing to hang out with Mao and drink Maotaijiu (pictures of this are featured in the controversial biography of Mao that came out a couple of years ago). Mao also was the one who made the point that they would have to continue calling us "capitalist imperialist pigs" in the press for some time because changing that too quickly would have been too transparent to the public, but that the US would know they no longer meant it. Mao was a part of the reason Deng was able to be purged in the early 1970's. After all, the CR got rid of Mao's main power rival, Liu Shaoqi, when he died from a lack of medical care. The biggest blow to Mao's power was when his handpicked successor, Lin Biao, tried and failed to overthrow him (and then died trying to escape to Mongolia). However, Biao's death created more of disillusionment with Mao among the people than a boon for Zhou's power. In addition, a lot of people in the Politburo were scared of Mao. Deng had a lot of Politburo connections, yet they didn't save him from being purged and was only brought back into the party once Zhou appealed to Mao (and then purged again by the Gang of Four following Zhou's death and then brought back in again). Zhou was also weakened politically following Lin Biao's death when he was one of the targets of the "Criticize Lin Biao, Criticize Confucius" campaign. Considering I studied Chinese politics extensively, speak Chinese and live in Beijing, I'm pretty secure in my knowledge.

"2. Mr. Reality Man is convinced, despite the evidence, that Mr. Maashal, the Hamas leader in exile in Damascus who is really calling the shots for Hamas, is a pragmatic individual. Unfortunately, his statements suggest otherwise."

He does have self-interest to which we can appeal. If if the Hamas leader was suicidal, he would be blowing himself up or still in the Palestinian Territories, where it would be easier for Israel to capture or kill him. Considering how the LTTE in Sri Lanka is more brutal (it uses suicide bombing more than any other terrorist group) and more powerful (it has a navy, it has no real rivals among Tamils in places like Jaffna and the Sri Lankan government's ability to infiltrate parts of Sri Lanka held by the LTTE for years is almost zero). However, the LTTE has moderated its stances over time. In addition, if post-election we had allowed Hamas to fall on their own with their lack of ability to govern, they would probably be marginalized by now. We're starting to see small groups of thugs without that much power as ten feet tall. Moreever, their were able to blame their failures on the US and Israel because we took concrete steps to undermine their ability to govern and refuse to recognize their electoral win.

What drives me crazy about posts like this one, is that Mr. Yglesias fails to take into account that the Israeli government is about as unrepresentative of its people's wishes as the Bush Administration is, if not more so (Olmert's approval ratings have been in the single digits for extended periods of his short term as PM.) The majority of Israelis favor talks with Hamas: Why then couldn't Obama refrain from slamming the door on talks with Hamas and just say, we'll do what the Israeli people see fittest, taking into account that this current government (and the preceding one) are great friends and ideological compatriots to our current right-wing government?

Another reason for the US to talk to Hamas, of course, is that Hamas was democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinian people. The fact that the Bush Administration has worked to undermine the democratically-elected government (and its own policy of democratization,) does not mean a Democratic Administration should continue this ill-fitted policy. Many smart Israeli politicians realize what a bunch of gangsters and autocratic illegitimate rulers the PA is made up of, and that there's simply no point in making deals with them.

What drives me crazy about posts like this one, is that Mr. Yglesias fails to take into account that the Israeli government is about as unrepresentative of its people's wishes as the Bush Administration is, if not more so (Olmert's approval ratings have been in the single digits for extended periods of his short term as PM.) The majority of Israelis favor talks with Hamas: Why then couldn't Obama refrain from slamming the door on talks with Hamas and just say, we'll do what the Israeli people see fittest, taking into account that this current government (and the preceding one) are great friends and ideological compatriots to our current right-wing government?

Another reason for the US to talk to Hamas, of course, is that Hamas was democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinian people. The fact that the Bush Administration has worked to undermine the democratically-elected government (and its own policy of democratization,) does not mean a Democratic Administration should continue this ill-fitted policy. Many smart Israeli politicians realize what a bunch of gangsters and autocratic illegitimate rulers the PA is made up of, and that there's simply no point in making deals with them.

What drives me crazy about posts like this one, is that Mr. Yglesias fails to take into account that the Israeli government is about as unrepresentative of its people's wishes as the Bush Administration is, if not more so (Olmert's approval ratings have been in the single digits for extended periods of his short term as PM.) The majority of Israelis favor talks with Hamas: Why then couldn't Obama refrain from slamming the door on talks with Hamas and just say, we'll do what the Israeli people see fittest, taking into account that this current government (and the preceding one) are great friends and ideological compatriots to our current right-wing government?

Another reason for the US to talk to Hamas, of course, is that Hamas was democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinian people. The fact that the Bush Administration has worked to undermine the democratically-elected government (and its own policy of democratization,) does not mean a Democratic Administration should continue this ill-fitted policy. Many smart Israeli politicians realize what a bunch of gangsters and autocratic illegitimate rulers the PA is made up of, and that there's simply no point in making deals with them.

What drives me crazy about posts like this one, is that Mr. Yglesias fails to take into account that the Israeli government is about as unrepresentative of its people's wishes as the Bush Administration is, if not more so (Olmert's approval ratings have been in the single digits for extended periods of his short term as PM.) The majority of Israelis favor talks with Hamas: Why then couldn't Obama refrain from slamming the door on talks with Hamas and just say, we'll do what the Israeli people see fittest, taking into account that this current government (and the preceding one) are great friends and ideological compatriots to our current right-wing government?

Another reason for the US to talk to Hamas, of course, is that Hamas was democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinian people. The fact that the Bush Administration has worked to undermine the democratically-elected government (and its own policy of democratization,) does not mean a Democratic Administration should continue this ill-fitted policy. Many smart Israeli politicians realize what a bunch of gangsters and autocratic illegitimate rulers the PA is made up of, and that there's simply no point in making deals with them.

What drives me crazy about posts like this one, is that Mr. Yglesias fails to take into account that the Israeli government is about as unrepresentative of its people's wishes as the Bush Administration is, if not more so (Olmert's approval ratings have been in the single digits for extended periods of his short term as PM.) The majority of Israelis favor talks with Hamas: Why then couldn't Obama refrain from slamming the door on talks with Hamas and just say, we'll do what the Israeli people see fittest, taking into account that this current government (and the preceding one) are great friends and ideological compatriots to our current right-wing government?

Another reason for the US to talk to Hamas, of course, is that Hamas was democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinian people. The fact that the Bush Administration has worked to undermine the democratically-elected government (and its own policy of democratization,) does not mean a Democratic Administration should continue this ill-fitted policy. Many smart Israeli politicians realize what a bunch of gangsters and autocratic illegitimate rulers the PA is made up of, and that there's simply no point in making deals with them.

You are correct, Emily, that the Israeli government is as unresponsive to the Israeli electorate as the US government is. This is because the Israeli government is a government - i.e., a group of people trying to achieve power and wealth by ruling other people. This is the nature of the state. Only in countries where the state was deliberately weakened early in its history and/or has been kept so by various revolutions and the like does the state ever even try to appear like it's function is to serve the public.

The US passed that point a century ago.

Now as to your multiple posts, hit the Post button ONCE. As soon as your browser status line (in Firefox anyway) switches from "waiting for matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com" to "transferring data from", your post has been received. No need to wait for the page refresh.


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