« Ironies | Main | Oh Noes Issues! »

The Black Conservative Tradition

20 Apr 2008 09:53 am

Ta-Nehisi Coates article about Bill Cosby in the new Atlantic reaches that high standard of excellent for long-form magazine writing wherein it's not really viable to adequately summarize the piece in a way that makes it possible to blog about. Instead, I'd just like to flag one interesting thread that Coates weaves -- the idea of a distinct "Black Conservative" political and intellectual tradition in America:

But Cosby’s rhetoric played well in black barbershops, churches, and backyard barbecues, where a unique brand of conservatism still runs strong. [...] Shortly after Cosby took his Pound Cake message on the road, I wrote an article denouncing him as an elitist. When my father, a former Black Panther, read it, he upbraided me for attacking what he saw as a message of black empowerment.

Cosby’s most obvious antecedent is Booker T. Washington. [...] W. E. B. Du Bois, the integrationist model for the Dysons of our day, saw Washington as an apologist for white racism and thought that his willingness to sacrifice the black vote was heretical. [...]

After Washington’s death, in 1915, the black conservative tradition he had fathered found a permanent and natural home in the emerging ideology of Black Nationalism. Marcus Garvey, its patron saint, turned the Atlanta Compromise on its head, implicitly endorsing segregation not as an olive branch to whites but as a statement of black supremacy. Black Nationalists scorned the Du Boisian integrationists as stooges or traitors, content to beg for help from people who hated them. [...]

Black conservatives like Malcolm X and Louis Farrakhan, the leader of the Nation of Islam, have at times allied themselves with black liberals. But in general, they have upheld a core of beliefs laid out by Garvey almost a century ago: a skepticism of (white) government as a mediating force in the “Negro problem,” a strong belief in the singular will of black people, and a fixation on a supposedly glorious black past.

Needless to say, there's an interesting ambiguity in the white mainstream's response to this black conservative tradition. The aspect of the tradition that says African-Americans will need to solve their own problems has enormous appeal to most moderate and conservative whites. But the tradition's analysis of why that's the case -- that America is a fundamentally racist society -- is viewed with horror by those some moderate and conservative whites. This also highlights, I think, part of what's so preposterous about efforts to insinuate that Barack Obama is a closet black nationalist -- his ideas are clearly liberal ideas, and those a very different set of ideas from the ones animating black nationalism.

Share This

Comments (69)

It's "excellence", not "excellent". Shouldn't any top tier blogger read the post before hitting "Send"? There's no post from Matt without at least one very obvious spelling or grammatical mistake.

"This also highlights, I think, part of what's so preposterous about efforts to insinuate that Barack Obama is a closet black nationalist -- his ideas are clearly liberal ideas, and those a very different set of ideas from the ones animating black nationalism."

What a surprise, old white conservative fogies don't know jackshit about black intellectual history despite being scared shitless about it.

There's no post from Matt without at least one very obvious spelling or grammatical mistake.

Or three:

Ta-Nehisi Coates [sic] article...

his ideas are clearly liberal ideas, and those a [sic] very different set of ideas

The Main Line of Philadelphia is still mostly lily white --although that is slowly changing. Probably 10,000+ people showed up at Obama's rallies here in Paoli and Wynnewood yesterday.
An there were many people lining the other train stations along his route to cheer him on --the "slow roll". Most of those people were white although there were Afro-Americans as well. Obama is not a "black nationalist" candidate.

Plus the framing of the election in race terms is usually an attempt by Republicans to distract the voters from the fact that the Republicans betray 98% of the population in order to serve the richest 2%.

Those of use making less than $1 Million per year need to fight together, regardless of skin color. I never noticed the Republicans making a distinction between skin colors when it came to choosing who to throw into the foxholes -- it's always the poor , whether black or white. WHile Bush's daughters model $5000 gowns on the cover of Vogue.

Gotta run -- I'm canvassing today.

PS
There were a LOT of white women --of all ages --at the Obama rally in Paoli yesterday.

Waiting for the arrival of Steve Sailor...

Ok, so he spent 20 years posturing with a black nationalist church then? The more I watch Obama, the more the word "poseur" comes to mind.

I read this piece when it came out. It is indeed splendid. Happy to see you highlight it.

The more I watch Obama, the more the word "poseur" comes to mind.

Jesus, Robertson, haven't you realized they're all poseurs? Nixon didn't leave office and go live with the Silent Majority; he moved to the Upper East Side. JFK didn't run on "A Mistress In Every Pot." Hillary Clinton's not even from New York, you may remember.

I have a reading-a-tabloid-in-the-breakroom interest in who these characters are, but I have a citizen's interest in what they're going to do.

James Robertson,

Please do not equate black nationalism with reverse racism. They are not the same. One posits that blacks should be self-sufficient and not rely on the government to solve the problems affecting them, while the other believes that whites are morally inferior to blacks. One can believe the former without believing the latter.

Waingo:

It's Sailer.

The Cosby article is a reminder of recent commentary on how Jeremiah Wright, in many respects, fits into the tradition of black conservativism. There are plenty of elements of similarity in the messages those two old sailors preach, though this would not be apparent to those who know of Wright only from a few sound bites selected for maximum partisan impact.

white supremacy and black supremacy are opposite polarities if the same tableau.Though the latter is a response to the brutality of the former which still exist pungently in extreme republicanism.Black militancy or nationalism is part of the beast now viewed as conservatism.Black power however inevitable awork different responses,inevitably,the latent type in the black churches refines it in jeremiad terms which is legimate to white power adherents but palum to african americans still concious abut the viciousness of white christianity acts against first nation and blacks.
Obama has seen both and the varoius spectacles assigned throughout the falsetableau of hate and denial claimed by false scprituralness.Note whites used the scrpitures to claim superiority,Blacks see ythrough this whilst positing their own superioty in resugence egyptanization/judahization.
Obama's road is to overthrow these various position and to be Moses of new or harminious way which is almost New jerusalem in approach,where all creeds an welcome,The only problem is that to arrive at this he first must ecape the pharoah of disorder(BOTH)who are numerous and scecretive with hidden officials.The redifinition of America is what needs to be ADRESSED.one amaerica free yet compassionate open yet secure.

white supremacy and black supremacy are opposite polarities if the same tableau.Though the latter is a response to the brutality of the former which still exist pungently in extreme republicanism.Black militancy or nationalism is part of the beast now viewed as conservatism.Black power however inevitable awork different responses,inevitably,the latent type in the black churches refines it in jeremiad terms which is legimate to white power adherents but palum to african americans still concious abut the viciousness of white christianity acts against first nation and blacks.
Obama has seen both and the varoius spectacles assigned throughout the falsetableau of hate and denial claimed by false scprituralness.Note whites used the scrpitures to claim superiority,Blacks see ythrough this whilst positing their own superioty in resugence egyptanization/judahization.
Obama's road is to overthrow these various position and to be Moses of new or harminious way which is almost New jerusalem in approach,where all creeds an welcome,The only problem is that to arrive at this he first must ecape the pharoah of disorder(BOTH)who are numerous and scecretive with hidden officials.The redifinition of America is what needs to be ADRESSED.one amaerica free yet compassionate open yet secure.

white supremacy and black supremacy are opposite polarities if the same tableau.Though the latter is a response to the brutality of the former which still exist pungently in extreme republicanism.Black militancy or nationalism is part of the beast now viewed as conservatism.Black power however inevitable awork different responses,inevitably,the latent type in the black churches refines it in jeremiad terms which is legimate to white power adherents but palum to african americans still concious abut the viciousness of white christianity acts against first nation and blacks.
Obama has seen both and the varoius spectacles assigned throughout the falsetableau of hate and denial claimed by false scprituralness.Note whites used the scrpitures to claim superiority,Blacks see ythrough this whilst positing their own superioty in resugence egyptanization/judahization.
Obama's road is to overthrow these various position and to be Moses of new or harminious way which is almost New jerusalem in approach,where all creeds an welcome,The only problem is that to arrive at this he first must ecape the pharoah of disorder(BOTH)who are numerous and scecretive with hidden officials.The redifinition of America is what needs to be ADRESSED.one amaerica free yet compassionate open yet secure.

"This also highlights, I think, part of what's so preposterous about efforts to insinuate that Barack Obama is a closet black nationalist -- his ideas are clearly liberal ideas, and those a very different set of ideas from the ones animating black nationalism."

"What a surprise, old white conservative fogies don't know jackshit about black intellectual history despite being scared shitless about it."

I've read Malcom X's bio, and it didn't really occur to me that he belonged to a "conservative" tradition. It makes sense on certain levels once you say it, but I think it's dubious basis to construct this argument on.

What's obviously "preposterous" to philosophy majors reading articles about "the idea of a distinct "Black Conservative" political and intellectual tradition in America" isn't obvious to everybody else. It's inside baseball.


"what's so preposterous about efforts to insinuate that Barack Obama is a closet black nationalist "

More mendacious head-in-the-sand blather from white folks.

The truth: To white folks, black folks are all the same. Thus, a well-chosen representative of the black equivalence class will suffice for trouncing any member of that class. Thus Obama "has to" answer for Wright, Belafonte, and any other black person that white folks feel like bringing up.

It's a distributed version of the saying "it takes 10 'atta boys' to make up for 1 'aw shit'".

What allows this racism to continue is "good whites" like Matt, who happily perpetuate the white unity lie "it's just a few bad apples".

It's not preposterous to so insinuate. IT'S BY DESIGN. And white folks - especially the self-regarded "good" ones - know it perfectly well. They implicitly SUPPORT this design by speaking as though it doesn't exist.

This talk of "black conservatism" is conflating two distinct traditions: On the one hand you have the working class tradition of black nationalism that is very radical and separatist (Garvey, Malcolm X) because it sees blacks as a colonized people within the United States who need to fight for national liberation. On the other hand you have the tradition of the black bourgeois who advocate self-help and economic upward mobility along the lines of middle class reformers everywhere (the Booker T. Washington tradition).

Crosby clearly belongs in the second tradition, not the first. They are very different things.

Not every tradition that is anti-liberal is conservative. There are radical anti-liberals and conservative anti-liberals.

What Jeet Heer said.

There is another strand of black conservative - the contrarian pundit - like George Schuyler. Sowell is that tradition, though Schuyler seems a bit different.

oh, come on, Jeet Heer, you're trying to tell us that black intellectual history is complicated and one article in the Atlantic can't sum it all up adequately?

Incidentally - Obama's wife is not really a liberal - she's actually a bit of Reagan democrat - Though she would never admit that. But she is very skeptical of liberals, she's religious - somewhat parochial, and has nostalgic view of the recent past.
It's worth noting that many on the right habitually drop the word "adult" when they misquote Michelle about not being proud of the US in her adult lifetime.

That's because most of them sort of agree with her - Recall Bill Bennett basically writing the USA off as hopeless when Bill Clinton was not removed from office?

Micheline:

The church Obama is a member of spews the most vile hatred imaginable: towards whites in general, Jews in particular. If a white candidate had similar associations, he would have been demonized as the devil long ago. If this isn't "the soft bigotry of low expectations", then I don't know what is. Obama should be held to the same standards as anyone else. The left however, simply won't do that

The church Obama is a member of spews the most vile hatred imaginable: towards whites in general, Jews in particular.

Did you faint when you heard the devil man speak?

Give me a fucking break.

Am I missing something?

“No longer is a person embarrassed because they’re pregnant without a husband,” he told the crowd. “No longer is a boy considered an embarrassment if he tries to run away from being the father of the unmarried child.”

Didn't Cosby:
1) cheat on his wife
2) when his mistress claimed to be pregnant with his child he refused paternity testing
3) while denying paternity, paid child support/hush money
4) had no contact with his alleged daughter
5) kept is a secret until he prosecuted his alleged daughter for threatening to expose the secret unless he paid her

Unless I'm misinformed or missed something, any article that neglects to mention this in the context of Cosby's self-righteous campaign is deeply flawed.

It's a shame. If he had a little humility and was willing to refer to himself as someone who has fallen short, he'd be a far more effective change agent.

"The church Obama is a member of spews the most vile hatred imaginable: towards whites in general, Jews in particular." (Robertson)

Bullshit.

If Obama were such a big antisemite, might not the Jewish Political Alliance of Illinois have endorsed someone else to be the Democratic nominee for the senate in 2004? I mean, even if we take "Jews have to vote for a Dem" as a given, mightn't they have endorsed, say, Dan Hynes instead?

Let's see - Wright opened the pages of his church newsletter to Hamas, which is a virulently anti-semitic organization.

Riddle me this: had any white candidate associated (for 20 years) with a pastor who opened the pages of his newsletter to, say, the KKK, would you be brushing it aside?

The left is either amazingly oblivious, or this kind of association simply doesn't concern it. Neither reflects very well.

The Cosby article is a reminder of recent commentary on how Jeremiah Wright, in many respects, fits into the tradition of black conservativism. There are plenty of elements of similarity in the messages those two old sailors preach, though this would not be apparent to those who know of Wright only from a few sound bites selected for maximum partisan impact. Posted by Paul Turner | April 20, 2008 11:59 AM
And even more tellingly, you see it in his actions at the TUCC, particularly with all the community empowerment programs they have. They provide help for people with HIV/AIDS, they provide help for Black Gays & Lesbians, who may feel outcast, they provide support for the elderly, they provide support and service to a lot of the community. The resulting message of which is one that resoundingly speaks of self-sufficiency.

Let's see - Wright opened the pages of his church newsletter to Hamas, which is a virulently anti-semitic organization.

You are talking about a reprint from the L.A. Times.

That was indeed very good. As far as Atlantic articles goes, it is among the few I wish were longer. jfs, did you read the article? It does mention those things, although in less detail.

"Let's see - Wright opened the pages of his church newsletter to Hamas, which is a virulently anti-semitic organization" (Robertson)

You're a little parochial, and kind of on the ignorant side. Hamas is fighting an Expansionist, Militarized Apartheid Junta that for 40+ years has imposed a murderous, enslaving, illegal and immoral Occupation on 3 million helpless people. To quote our likely Democratic Party nominee Senator Barack Obama: "No one is suffering more than the Palestinians." No one. Maybe if you were in their shoes- you'd go sheepishly to your grave. Maybe if you were being starved out, seen your children and loved ones shot down like dogs, you'd meekly submit. But, the Palestinians won't do that. So, if their rhetoric at times is a tad too general about the Jews who are doing this to them...well, Robertson, - I think they can be forgiven. Equating Hamas to the KKK is the equivalent of seeing no moral distinction between Nelson Mandela and Baruch Goldstein. In other words- you have no moral compass, and you're an insipid little liar.

matt,

It mentions his settling a lawsuit with a woman who accused him of sexual assault. It says nothing about Autumn Jackson.


Any talk of Hamas as anything other than a mysoginist, anti-semitic, hate filled organization is just BS.

Their stated goal is to destroy Israel and kill every Jew they see. Period, end of story. If you want to delude yourself otherwise, you have a lot in common with those who signed off on the destruction of Czechoslovakia in 1938.

I know this is sort of close to defining anti-semitism as Isaiah Berlin's "hating Jews more than strictly neccessary" but there is a context to Hamas anti-semitic nature that has to be taken into account. They aren't paranoid crazies, they actually have a geo-political organization that defines itself as representing world Jewry that honestly is out to get them. Comparing it to German anti-semitism which was maliciously invidious for no sane reason whatsoever is vapid pap.


Hamas = Nazi Germany. In your dreams, motherfucker. Problem is, kid, you're swimming against the tide. No one BUT no one believes the Zionist propaganda anymore. Poor little Israel the Land of Milk and Honey threatened with extinction by NAZI MONSTERS, the Horror, the Horror! It's the other way around, schmuck and everyone knows it. They know it in Israel, they know it in the bowels of AEI. As MLK said so eloquently: "The arc of the Universe bends towards Justice", and the Palestinian struggle for self-determination is in the words of another Great Man Nelson Mandela: "The Moral Struggle of Our Time." It's taken a while to cut through the grease of poor, poor Israel the meek little mouse perpetrating a policy of Slow Genocide against their evil, "filthy shvatz goyim" neighbors, but, if indeed Barack Obama ecomes our 43d President which all good people of conscience hope and pray for - the days when prattling little fools like you can shriek: "It's 1938 again! Run, run for your lives! O' poor Israel!" will be over. You'll be laughed out of every bistro, beer garden, and second-rate spa you try to peddle that shit in. You'd have better luck hooking up with NAMBLA parroting their cockamamie crap.

Well, if I were our friend "James Robertson", I'd be really, really nervous these days.

The Internet and related technological developments are producing an exponential increase in the availability of information and the speed at which it can be transmitted. Certain facts previously not well known or widely disseminated are rapidly becoming so.

And next thing you know, poor "James Robertson" is hanging from a gibbet following the Great Day of the the Rope...

OK, I'm creeped out now. See ya.

What do Bill Cosby, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, and Doug Feith all have in common?
They all went to the elite public school, Central High, in the Olney section of Philadelphia.

No one here mentioned Bill Cosby's seduction Modus Operandi. Mister Pudding Pops slips women, preferably white women, pills before groping them. Holy Mackeral!

Good thing he pays them off as soon as they bring the lawsuits.

RKU - it's so nice to see reasoned debate from the left. Faced with dissent, the left threatens violence, time and time again. Conservative speakers usually need security at Universities - funny how lefty speakers don't need to fear any attacks from the right (other than verbal debate).

As to Trevor, it's not Israel that is threatening its neighbors with genocide. You can pretend otherwise, but you are demonstrably wrong. All you need to do is read the actual words from Hamas

Sorry, (Robertson)kid. I can threaten to destroy Bulgaria tomorrow, but the problem is...(a la Hamas) I lack the capacity to do so. Israel has been threatening its neighbors with nuclear annihilation FOR YEARS, and see...they HAVE THE CAPACITY to do so. Why do you think Western Europeans, South Americans, Russia, um...The Civilized World considers Israel to be the biggest threat to World Peace? Yeah, I know - they're all cretinous Jew-hating sloths who dance a reverse hora everytime footage of the Auchswitz ovens appears on The History Channel. Jimmy Carter's Damascus meeting with a Hamas political leader will be followed by scores of high-level European and Asian foreign ministers doing the same. You can't have a just and sustained negotiated Peace Agreement without Hamas. Just as the Jewish terrorist organizations (Irgun, the Stern Gang)laid down their arms, just as the IRA did in Ireland - Hamas has always had a pragmatic side that goes beyond the hudnas. They KNOW they can't "drive Israel into the sea" and they're just as tired of fighting and losing so many good young men and women as the Israelis are. Is there a reason to be optimistic now? What's the alternative. But, I think Carter's trip is a good step in the right direction and there are many old Shin Bet hands and Generals in Israel that agree.

Trevor,

Find me any statement from an Israeli official threatening anyone with nuclear annihilation.

You want to make wild assertions? Back them up

Kid, you'll have to prove the negative. Do you really think the Israelis haven't threatened their neighbors with the one thermonuclear trump card they have? They whole country is one anxiety-driven, cornered "Never again!" Jewish hysteric. Who do you think you're kidding besides yourself? Every European government is well aware of the "Samson option" threats the Israelis have made over the years. Keep clinging to the Land of Milk and Honey fairytale your parents lulled you to sleep with. This shitty little pariah country has been moonbat central for years.

Trevor,

If you want to argue that way, then I'll assert that invisible fairies make the flowers grow. While you're busy admitting (based on the above) that you know there's been no such threat made, you can try proving - in the same way you challenged me - that my assertion is wrong.

James Robertson,


TUCC is part of UCC which is a predominately white denomination. So it is not a black separatist church. Moreover, there are white members in the church.

Micheline - Say what you want, but I can draw my own conclusions based on Wright's sermons. The man is a hate filled, racist, America hating bigot. And no, I don't care that he was a Marine - Oswald served in the military as well.

Anyone who stayed in that church for longer than 5 minutes after Wright opened his mouth should be ashamed of themselves. A man who stayed there for 20 years - and exposed his own children to the venom being espoused there - isn't qualified to run for dog catcher.

Couldn't agree with the black conservative notion more. Black folks are by tradition, conservative. Needing the government was a thing of the mid 20th century. I'm sure any black person of my age (33) will tell you that they had a grandparent who quite literally work themselves to death. They did not and would not trust government to give them anything. That spirit has been lost somewhat in the some of the generations that followed. But interestinly, that spirit has found a rebirth in my generation. We have more small buisness owners and investors than any generation before mine. Those generations tended to rely on government, federal or state, to get middle class earning jobs. Thats why there is such a high concentration of the African - American baby boom generation that are educators, DYFS social workers, welfare department workers, etc. Now in a lot of cases, epeciall black women, this may have been the only avenues available at the time. Granted I give you that. Still the ratio is still very high when compared to my generation. We just don't see government as the answer. We tend to play the game how it is currently configured and simply try to game the system for our maximum benefit. So when Dr. Cosby spoke those words we gave out a collective AMEN. We had been saying these things for quite sometime in closed confines. In barber shops, pool houses and especially black churches. So to say that Rev Wright doesnt love america is something we find remarkably insane. This man is a former marine. He shot and killed for this country. He put his life on the line for this country. You have no right questioning this mans patriotism. He is just speaking from a this government is not going to do anything for you perspective. It is you that has to do it. What I find equally amazing is that no one questioned the patriotism of the white pastors ( Hagee, Falwell, Robertson, Parsly) who said the same thing that Pastor Wright said. They condem this country on or directly after 9/11. The only difference is that they said was because of homosexuals and not entrenched racism that we were attacked. So the moral of the story is that its ok to be a homophobic bigot but its not ok to point out americas long history of racism.

Robertson knows that's true because he attends church there every Sunday, right?
In blackface, of course, otherwise he'd be killed.

merl,

Your level of denial is amusing. I can only imagine the fits you - and Matt, for that matter - would be pitching over a non-black candidate who had the same kinds of associations. Race baiting pastor, unrepentant terrorist friend, sleazy business pal... the list is long.

James Robertson, those are all good reasons not to vote for Wright for president. Obama joined his church to become integrated into Chicago's black community. When he was looking for a church, according to the New Republic, he was warned that Wright's church was too "buppie" (black yuppie) to give him much cred. It's probably safe to assume that Wright's church then is the moderate black-majority church on Chicago's South Side. I guess Obama could have said "screw 'em all, I don't care about joining the black community here and not becoming a community organizer and work on Wall Street," but he didn't. In Chicago, if you want to do anything good, you have to get your hands dirty. If you knew anything about Chicago politics, you would be surprised that Obama doesn't have about four or five times the shit attached to him. My dad's a white Republican from Illinois, yet growing up he had black friends from the South Side. It's a rough place. At least one of his friends from there ended up having to kill his stepfather to stop him from brutally beating his mother. That's reality. You can scream out from on high in your nice, safe, lily-white bubble or you can come back down to earth and live in reality and give up your faux-moral righteousness. Your choice.

"It is you that has to do it. What I find equally amazing is that no one questioned the patriotism of the white pastors ( Hagee, Falwell, Robertson, Parsly) who said the same thing that Pastor Wright said. They condem this country on or directly after 9/11. The only difference is that they said was because of homosexuals and not entrenched racism that we were attacked. So the moral of the story is that its ok to be a homophobic bigot but its not ok to point out americas long history of racism.

Posted by John randall | April 21, 2008 1:29 AM"

The best part is that the "chickens coming home to roost" part was Wright quoting a white ambassador's interview on FoxNews. Wright actually seemed on the verge of tears in his sermon when he was talking about the actual people who died and jumped out of windows at the WTC out of fear. Meanwhile, the likes of Falwell and Robertson seemed rather happy about 9/11 because then that gave them something new to complain about.

Having watched that part of the video, I would hardly describe it as "being on the verge of tears". Rather, I'd describe it as nearly gleeful.

Obama is willing to keep the company of truly awful people, like Wright and Ayres. What does that say about his character?

"Having watched that part of the video, I would hardly describe it as "being on the verge of tears". Rather, I'd describe it as nearly gleeful."

Did you watch the whole video or just the FoxNews excerpt? If you saw him as gleeful, then you really are living in your own little world, which definitely seems to be a possibility.

"Obama is willing to keep the company of truly awful people, like Wright and Ayres. What does that say about his character?

Posted by James Robertson | April 21, 2008 7:18 AM"

It says he lives in Chicago. When I went to a prep school in New England, some of my classmates were from highly respected and well-known families whose wealth were originally based on forms of drug dealing but are now part of the American ruling class. I could have stormed out of the school just to stay pure, but that would have been idiotic.

The whole video, and I stand by my description. The difference between Obama's pastor and the clowns mentioned above is simple: no Republican has had a 20 year relationhip where they decribed the clown in question as a mentor - Obama did. Obama also describes unrepentant terrorist Ayres as a friend, and has done paid work with him.

As to "lily white", you have no idea what my neighborhood is like - but "lily white" doesn't describe it.

As to the guy who claims Obama came out well (unlike many from Chicago) - he's not from there. He grew up in what can only be described as a life of privilege, and decided to attend Wright's church for "street cred". That makes him a poseur at best.

Here's a key difference between the right's alliance with lunatic rightwing pastors and Barack Obama's pastor.

No one has even begun to put forward any argument that any of Rev. Wright's views -- say, suspicions that HIV was created in government labs to attack black people -- would be somehow enacted into policy by Barack Obama.

But we now have about 3 decades of evidence that when the Republicans recruit & solicit alliances with their fundamentalist lunatic backers, they actually craft policies which are favored by those lunatic fundamentalists.

Including responses to AIDS, contraception and sexual education programs, even trying to get national parks to distribute creationist nonsense.

"The whole video, and I stand by my description."

Then you a simply delusional and I feel sorry for you. You really seem to be a bit paranoid and need to feel like people are after you and need to be mad about something. You also just seem really naive about how the real world works. Either that or the skeletons in your closet are really big and you feel the need to lash out to cover them up like born-again Christians who were slutty cokeheads before turning to religion and now think anyone who has a glass of wine with dinner is evil.

"As to the guy who claims Obama came out well (unlike many from Chicago) - he's not from there. He grew up in what can only be described as a life of privilege, and decided to attend Wright's church for "street cred". That makes him a poseur at best.

Posted by James Robertson | April 21, 2008 7:37 AM"

That "street cred" was to integrate himself into the black community of Chicago. Is there anything wrong with that? Has Obama adopted any of Wright's extreme positions? Nope. Should we attack Catholics for staying in the Church after the sex scandal? The Papacy in recent years has done stuff that is a lot more disgusting than anything Wright has said. I used to drive by everyday a Catholic Church a lot of my friends used to go to where it turned out the priest was a child molester. Does that mean that all of the parishioners are of ill moral character?

El Cid: Yeah, right. Abortion hasn't been limited, prayer hasn't been returned to schools - none of the things the far right wants have come close to happening. The bizarre theories the left holds about government response to AIDS (etc) is akin to the belief that FDR planned Pearl Harbor.

"Yeah, right. Abortion hasn't been limited, prayer hasn't been returned to schools - none of the things the far right wants have come close to happening. The bizarre theories the left holds about government response to AIDS (etc) is akin to the belief that FDR planned Pearl Harbor.

Posted by James Robertson | April 21, 2008 7:50 AM"

Actually, the right's practice of appointing anti Roe v. Wade judges has led to things like partial-birth abortion often being judged illegal and unconstitutional (though those decisions then get over-turned, then restored again and so on and so on...). The main reason why Roe v. Wade hasn't been over-turned is that 1) Republicans haven't been in power long enough to get the votes and 2) being on the Supreme Court seems to moderate right-leaning moderates to the chagrin of the Republicans who appoint them. One of the Dakotas did outlaw abortion not too long ago. You also have Bush's gambit about trying to make a Constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage and all of the ballot initiatives to do so in particular states. You do have things like creationist books sold at the Grand Canyon in government-run bookstores, abstinence-only sex ed, etc. One of the big reasons the Reagan Administration did basically nothing about global warming was that Reagan's EPA head believed the Rapture was coming soon.

"The bizarre theories the left holds about government response to AIDS (etc)"

"The Left" doesn't believe AIDS was created by the government. A few individuals do, such as Wright, which is partly born of the fact that the Tuskegee experiments took place within his lifetime (and ended only in the early 1970's).

Partial birth abortion is an atrocity with no medical rationale - it's a practice that ought to be viewed as awful without regard to what you think of abortion in general.

As to same sex marriage - I seem to recall Clinton (guess which party!) signing that bill.

"Partial birth abortion is an atrocity with no medical rationale - it's a practice that ought to be viewed as awful without regard to what you think of abortion in general.

As to same sex marriage - I seem to recall Clinton (guess which party!) signing that bill.

Posted by James Robertson | April 21, 2008 8:16 AM"

I personally support partial-birth abortion in cases where the mother's life is in danger and a choice has to be made, but that's beside the point. However, it is clear that the rulings against it have come primarily from Republican-appointed judges who were appointed in part to satisfy the Republican's religious base.

As for the point about Clinton, your point does nothing to contradict either my or El Cid's point. Clinton is spineless for signing it and then embracing it, but he also made sure to sign it late on a Friday out of shame. Does the fact that Clinton signed it nullify the fact that Republicans have primarily been behind to ban same sex marriage and the ballot initiatives? Your point is an attempt at misdirection instead of an argument. Republican presidents have specifically asked Falwell's and Robertson's approval of Supreme Court picks. These are two guys who have said that the anti-Christ is a gay Jewish-American who votes Democratic. These two have had direct influence on American policy. You have no real way to deny that. Your arguments seem mostly to sum up to "cuz I say so."

James Robertson: Fortunately, the utility of the idiotic lunatic fundamentalists that the Republicans toy with is limited, so, no, they do not get to impose their lunatic agenda entirely.

But this is akin to an argument that because the "far right" has long wanted the IRS abolished that the Bush Jr. administration aren't real "conservatives" because their tax policies have only been giant giveaways to the super-rich.

And, no, "the left" does not believe that the government created HIV, though there are plenty of conspiracy theories of all varieties on left and right.

However, it's interesting that you apparently believe that an argument that the so-called "partial birth abortion" is wrong somehow contradicts the assertion that it was pushed into legislation by the Republicans' lunatic fundamentalist allies. "Interesting" in the sense of "well, gosh, aren't you just unfamiliar with how to construct an argument, aren't you?"

Partial Birth abortion is never a medical necessity, period. It's an atrocity, plain and simple. Opposing it says nothing about one's position on abortion, although it does say something about one's level of common decency. If you support it, then you support infanticide. Period.

The point about Clinton merely demonstrates how wide support for such action is - not whether it's right or wrong. What I'm pointing out is that opposition to same sex marriage is hardly limited to the far right.

"Partial Birth abortion is never a medical necessity, period. It's an atrocity, plain and simple. Opposing it says nothing about one's position on abortion, although it does say something about one's level of common decency. If you support it, then you support infanticide. Period."

A bunch of doctors say otherwise, but what do they know?

"The point about Clinton merely demonstrates how wide support for such action is - not whether it's right or wrong. What I'm pointing out is that opposition to same sex marriage is hardly limited to the far right.

Posted by James Robertson | April 21, 2008 8:27 AM"

He was doing it to insulate himself against Republican attacks when he was up for re-election. He wasn't the one out front pushing for the ban. Congress wasn't exactly in Democratic hands when the bill came to his desk. He triangulated once again spinelessly and signed the bill to cut off the chance of a Republican attack. This is all part of the public record. The fact you don't seem to understand this is rather telling.

...Partial Birth abortion is never a medical necessity, period. It's an atrocity, plain and simple. Opposing it says nothing about one's position on abortion, although it does say something about one's level of common decency...

Posted by James Robertson

Okay, and what does this have to do with a political analysis of which political forces pushed legislation regarding "partial birth abortion" (which I think is an awesome, beautiful, fun procedure that everyone should do at least once in their lifetime) into law?

Your view that it is infanticide has exactly what to do with the fact that the same nut squad that tried to string Terri Schiavo up as a dancing marionette show were the fundamentalist coalition leaders on opposing the procedure?

Partial Birth Abortion is done at a point when the fetus is viable, and when it could be safely delivered. In fact, it's mostly delivered, and killed on the way out. There aren't reputable doctors who claim it's ever a medical necessity, and the fact that you - and Obama - think otherwise speaks to a level of fanaticism that isn't healthy.

As I said, opposing partial birth abortion has nothing to do with abortion rights in general - unless you are a fanatic.

...the fact that you - and Obama - think otherwise speaks to a level of fanaticism that isn't healthy.

As I said, opposing partial birth abortion has nothing to do with abortion rights in general - unless you are a fanatic.

Posted by James Robertson

Please, relax, don't worry: I have absolutely zero respect whatsoever for your perspective on what is or is not fanatical, or what is or is not moral, or anything else whatsoever, and I'm perfectly content for you to wander away making meaningless, nutty complaints about how other people are crazy. As long as you wander away.

This was a good article -- I like the bit about a guy named "Ta-Nehisi" quoting Cosby's mockery of black naming traditions. It's nice to read about the real black conservative tradition(s) -- few magazines cover this stuff often enough. Some black billionaire should fund a magazine (like Dissent, NRO, TNR, TAC, etc) .

I've got my own pop-pschh--theory -- Cosby's never been the same since his son was killed (by a white Russian immigrant). Though his own guilt about his illegitimate daughter probably factors in there.

James Robertson -- did you even read the article? If you have nothing germane to say on the topic, or about Bill Cosby, then don't. Everyone else -- please don't feed the trolls.

"James Robertson -- did you even read the article? If you have nothing germane to say on the topic, or about Bill Cosby, then don't. Everyone else -- please don't feed the trolls.

Posted by Ikram | April 21, 2008 9:59 AM"

I really need to stop jumping at troll bait. It does piss me off though how talking about anything to do with any black person turns into a discussion into every slight, real or imagined, that any black person has ever committed to white people.


Comments closed May 04, 2008.

Copyright © 2007 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.