« Call Jack Bauer | Main | Monday Immaturity Blogging »

The Call Up

14 Apr 2008 02:37 pm

I thought it might be worth saying a bit more about the popularity of this notion of raising an army of foreigners to fight the Iraq War for us. I think this is a problematic concept on its own merits, but beyond that it's illustrative of the unseriousness of a lot of hawkish commentary these days. We all understand why a draft is politically unfeasible and regarded by the military brass as undesirable anyway. But what about a more serious effort by the big minds behind the endless war policy to get people to sign up?

Michael O'Hanlon is slightly too old for the army, but I bet he's got some fighting-age research associates and interns over there at Brookings. Barbara and Jenna Bush could sign up, and so could the seemingly unemployed Meghan McCain. Fred Kagan's eligible to serve at 38 as are various other AEI fellows. But beyond individual people, the institutions of the conservative movement writ large could be encouraging young conservatives to go sign up. They could be selflessly offering to wage the battle of ideas purely with the too old, the disabled, and the openly gay as their comrades in arms, while urging young and healthy rightwingers to go sign up. Not only would that have some direct impact on the manpower situation, but the demonstration effect on the remaining pro-war 30-35 percent of the country could be large. Meanwhile, if it worked it would be a significant rejoinder to criticisms from Democrats and others that the force is being unduly strained.

But it's not happening and it's not going to happen. And the significance of that observation isn't to call the people who aren't making it happen "chicken." The point is just that if, chicken or not, you really thought Iraq was the central front in a world-historical struggle against Islamofascism you'd be leading recruiting drives. You'd be signing up yourself if eligible to serve, and you'd be encouraging young people over whom you have some sway or influence to do the same. But though a lot of people say all kinds of things about the enormously high stakes in Iraq, few people's revealed preferences indicate that they believe it. I don't think it makes sense to say that everyone who favors some given military operation has an obligation to join the service (among other things, I'm familiar with more than one person who decided to enlist after 9/11 in order to fight al-Qaeda and wound up in Iraq) but in light of the fact that there are very real recruiting problems it seems like something that ought to be taken more seriously. But at a minimum, it seems to me that people ought to bring their war-related rhetoric more in line with their actual war-related behavior.

UPDATE: Important factual error-like thing in the post, Jason Zengerle notes that McCain has a son in the Marines and another in the naval academy. I didn't know that McCain even had sons. That obviously puts the point about Meghan McCain in a very different context.

Share This

Comments (74)

Again, Matthew doesn't see the "Meta Policy".

This is the Neocon fix for the illegal immigrant problem.

Hopefully, the foreign recruits won't wise up like the Roman legions and realize that THEY can control who's "el Presidente". Can , in fact, auction the throne off to the highest bidder on Ebay.

Which would, admittedly, be more transparent than the current auction.

Matt,

What if there were foreigners getting into DC to be bloggers? I mean foreigners have taken over Silicon Valley. What if there were political bloggers in DC that were like engineers in the Valley?

I bet you all, including the constantly-Obama-ArticleinAtlantic, Andrew Sullivan, would be incredibly nervous.

I mean your jobs would then be jeopardy. You all are so predictable:

- Protect the Democrats. Hide the dirt. Use views (similar) of other bloggers to hide bias. Muddy it up.
- Get the GOP. 24/7. GOP focus on mistakes of Democrats - ignore. Focus back on GOP.
- If Obama mistakes fall through the crack, just repeat it will be pass. Get back on the wagon (GOP out-of-context statements).

I mean foreigners could easily do better. They have more analytical skills. More fairness. More open to all views.

You would be the first to go, unless the trust fund or the book endorsed by your friends reaches the top of NYT.

Right?

Thank god everyday that there are few foreigners from developing countries in your business. Repeat this every day.


I've seen this same "idea" from Max Boot. The question I have is, didn't this same type of thing help bring down the Roman Empire, recruiting foreign mercenaries to fight their wars, including from their formar enemies?

Jimmy Stewart, the noblest conservative actor of them all, showed up at the age of 33, after flunking the physical several times, and eventually flew many dangerous combat missions after importuning the military to take him off training duty and let him fly.


I don't support McCain, but I think the snark about his daughter is a little disingenuous, given his son in in the Marine Corps.

". Barbara and Jenna Bush could sign up, and so could the seemingly unemployed Meghan McCain."

McCain's already got 2 out of his 3 biological children in the military. As for Meghan McCain being "seemingly unemployed" -- you just linked to her blog. She's 'employed' in the same profession as you. Why should she get a real job and not you?

As for this:

"Fred Kagan's eligible to serve at 38 as are various other AEI fellows."

If you had ever served in the military, you wouldn't think for a minute that Kagan would qualify for military service. He wouldn't pass the physical requirements.

Umm..I'm pretty sure that Jimmy Stewart's ear kept him from serving. His brother Harry on the other hand...

"But at a minimum, it seems to me that people ought to bring their war-related rhetoric more in line with their actual war-related behavior."

shorter version: "Take the beam out of thine own eye."

Instead of saying, "more neocons should be signing up to fight if they really had the courage of their convictions," why not point out the obvious-- no one really believes that the war in Iraq is that important, militarily. Keeping the war going has many political benefits, but in the military scheme of things, it's clearly not considered a big deal by its backers.

Instead of having every dispute over Iraq degenerate into, "if you believe in it so much, why didn't you sign up?", we should be more willing to say, "look, cut the crap. You and I both know that this war isn't a significant strategic interest."

Almost missed the reference, Dan, I'm embarrassed to say. Too much time spent in joints that serve hard liqour to men who like to drink hard, or something like that (it's been too many years).

If you had ever served in the military, you wouldn't think for a minute that [Fred] Kagan would qualify for military service. He wouldn't pass the physical requirements.

Why not, Fred? He's an able-bodied male with no physical handicaps. He's a bit tubby, and he might not qualify for the Navy SEALS or the Marines, but you don't need to be a perfect specimen to serve in the military.

I'd love to serve, but I'm married, I have a kid, and my ass is very big. Otherwise, I'd totally be in Iraq with guns blazing.

No matter what your age, if you really believed in the Iraq war you would pay for it. As President Bush said during the State of the Union Address, the IRS accepts checks and money orders. Then he laughed and his supporters laughed at the rubes that might take his words seriously.

Just imagine if Fred Kagan, President Bush, John McCain or any war supporter donated six month's pay towards the cost of the war.

I can't picture it either.

And are the advocates for universal health care pooling their own money together above and beyond what they pay in taxes to donate it to the federal treasury for use in Medicare and Medicaid? If neoconservatives have to put their money where their (big) mouths are, shouldn't everyone?

Yea, Dan had me going too, caught myself in mid-wikipedia link

Jerry Pournelle (the SF writer, at jerrypournelle.com) has been talking for years about the necessity of using a foreign legion as an adjunct to an Imperial Army.

Please note that he doesn't want the US to be an Empire. If it does become one, however, he wants it to be competent.

Maybe we're finally about to have the Republic vs Empire debate? Which are we going to be, and what do we have to do to accomplish either one?

But at a minimum, it seems to me that people ought to bring their war-related rhetoric more in line with their actual war-related behavior.

So then Matthew has signed up to fight alongside the Mehdi Army?

Or did Matthew instead sign up to fight alongside the Islamic Courts Union in Somalia?

Well, which is it, Matthew?

Why not, Fred? He's an able-bodied male with no physical handicaps.

Indeed, though his well-demonstrated comfort with having other people die to guarantee his paycheck might be hard to address in Basic.

Would you trust a Kagan to cover you?

As for Meghan McCain being "seemingly unemployed" -- you just linked to her blog. She's 'employed' in the same profession as you. Why should she get a real job and not you?

There are no ads on the site. It's not owned by a media company that could be paying her a salary. If the disclaimer ("This is my personal blog. It is not in any way affiliated with John McCain or the McCain for President Campaign.") is to be believed she's not getting paid for it by the campaign. So how exactly is it a job?

"Would you trust a Kagan to cover you?"

I see Kagan as Gomer Pyle in "Full Metal Jacket"

Well, which is it, Matthew?

These days Al seems constantly on the verge of bursting into tears.

Please don't cry, Al!

Instead of saying, "more neocons should be signing up to fight if they really had the courage of their convictions," why not point out the obvious-- no one really believes that the war in Iraq is that important, militarily.

That's exactly what the post does point out.

"Why not, Fred? He's an able-bodied male with no physical handicaps."

See the Army's body fat requirements.

There's always diet and exercise, and what's more motivating then the chance to participate in The Greatest, War, Evah!

"There's always diet and exercise"

Easier said than done. Some people just don't have the physical aptitude for military service. Fred Kagan appears to be one of them.

Bear in mind, too, that even among those who meet the Army's initial physical requirements, a non-trivial percentage wash out for physical/medical reasons in basic training.

Will Allen is right. Yglesias is ranting. McCain has a son in Iraq.

Matt supported the war -- who from his family went over there?

Did he think about signing up?

The shot on Meghan McCain is thus way cheap.

Say what you want about the McCains, they're pretty good about fighting in the wars they support. Which is a lot more than you can say for Matt.

Though, yeah, not having gone to The Dalton School and Harvard, the McCains may roll their eyes at women in combat and all. Go figure. I guess they're not as enlightened about gender roles as the prep-school lefties.

Granted, an argument could be made that Matt and his peers aren't about actual fighting. That's just not their style. That's for the rubes who listen to country music. Now if there was a "progressive" teen dance party at the Jefferson Memorial (a la Megan McArdle and her dumbass libertarian buddies), Matt could, no doubt, be counted on to load up his iPod with Vampire Weekend tunes and put his privileged white ass on the line at the big teen party at the mall. That's what these Ivy Leauge kiddie bloggers get worked up about. That's their idea of combat.

Till then, I guess, Matt will just knock the sister of a guy who actually puts his life on the line fighting in a war Matt supported.

A really, really embarrassing post.

Hypocritical, damning and utterly oblivious too.

Meanwhile, if it worked it would be a significant rejoinder to criticisms from Democrats and others that the force is being unduly strained.

How would it be a rejoinder? We Dems. are arguing the force is so strained that we need to scrape the bottom of the barrel and recruit trust fund babies and wingnut welfare recipients. Wouldn't having a recruitment drive amongst the Kagans and Kagans of Doughy Pantloads of the right actually prove our point rather than be a rejoinder to it? After all, if our force were not unduly strained (which is what the neo-cons are arguing), they don't need to sign up, do they?

“Easier said than done. Some people just don't have the physical aptitude for military service. Fred Kagan appears to be one of them.
Bear in mind, too, that even among those who meet the Army's initial physical requirements, a non-trivial percentage wash out for physical/medical reasons in basic training.”

You’re right, up to a point, especially regarding Kagan. I was kind off joking when referring to him. However, I don’t buy into the often lame excuses offered by a lot of these people, especially the “College Republican” types, about their lack of physical ability. I went into the Army in the 80’s for four years in combat arms and passed every PT test, and believe me I was no Brad-Pitt-as-Achilles type. So I’m just naturally skeptical when I hear this excuse.

See the Army's body fat requirements.

Mebbe so, but I'm sure the embassy in Baghdad could use a few more smart guys, and I doubt they have any physical requirements.

That said, the "why aren't your children in the military" argument is always deeply stupid, and doubly so here.

Contrast the conservatives' behavior to that of liberals and left-wingers during the 1930s Spanish Civil War, when many of them went to support the democratically elected Republican (i.e. socialist) Spain against the Fascist insurgents by travelling to Spain and fighting alongside various militias (e.g. George Orwell).

Matt, you forget that McCain has one son in the Marines who just returned from a tour in Iraq. IN addition, another is in the the Naval Academy and he could also end up in Iraq....

@Scoblete:

Nice try at exonerating you and your fellow 'cons. The difference is giving more money to Medicaid would not bring about universal health care. More chickenhawks showing up for the fight would make a difference. Could you imagine if 30,000 hawks volunteered? We could have another winning surge in Basra!

Stefan,

You actually may be onto something. Perhaps the conservatives have started believing their own rhetoric about PC-liberal-McCarthyism and are worried that if they volunteer to serve in this war, they will be treated by a future, liberal version of HUAC (et al) in the same way that those liberals who volunteered for the Republican cause in Spain were called "pre-mature anti-fascists". And that's why they aren't signing up?

BTW IMHO, the resonance and import of the "why aren't your children in the military" argument is the issue of shared sacrifice and the cost/benefits analysis going on in the run up to war. Perhaps if the ruling elites, and their media retainors, in this country had more to loose from a war, they would not have been so quick to rush us into a war.

Thanks, Fred. It appears that Fred Kagan doesn't currently qualify, unless maybe he's 7'0".

But he could. Have you seen how much those fatties drop on The Biggest Loser? I bet no one thought they could shed the blubber either. War is all about sacrifice.

Forget their own children. Why aren't there more calls to increase the size of the army or to get the draft going again? The war in Iraq is the most important conflict of our time, but not important enough to risk losing an election over?

The question I have is, didn't this same type of thing help bring down the Roman Empire, recruiting foreign mercenaries to fight their wars, including from their formar enemies?

KevinD,

Yeah, but its more complicated than that.

The Roman used foreign auxilliaries for centuries. So long as they were divided up and placed in mostly Roman armies they were never a problem. Partly because they were outnumbered by the Roman units they served with and partly because they were commanded and paid by Roman officers.

The problem came when the Romans started simply hiring foreign rulers who recruited and maintained their own armies and promised to serve Rome when called upon to do so. This policy resulted in the creation of almost entirely foreign armies who served and were paid by their own officers and therefore felt very little loyalty, in any sense, to Rome.

In short: A unit of Germans under Roman leadership in a Roman army = no problem. An army of Germans under German leadership in a German army = problem.

Pat Buchanan, 1990 ... "humping up that bloody road to Baghdad . . . kids with names like McAllister, Murphy, Gonzales and Leroy Brown."

It seems that McAllister, Murphy, Gonzales and Leroy Brown have gotten smart and are not enlisting in sufficient numbers to fight wars on behalf of Israeli-firsters like Feith, Perle, and Wolfowitz (or for corporate oil men like Bush, Cheney).

However, Israel must still be secured, the oil must flow, and our airbases must be defended. To perform these tasks, the neocons must turn to men who are even lower on the totem pole than Murphy and Leroy Brown, the Greater Unwashed Masses, foreigners.

as has been repeatedly noted above...that was a pretty nasty cheapshot against McCain, considering that he already has two kids in the service.

as for Kagan, I doubt he could get in...and getting into the foreign service is actually really hard.

with that said, I have a sibling deploying to Baghdad in October and am currently mulling an Army commission myself. so I'd say my family has done their part.

As for Meghan McCain being "seemingly unemployed" -- you just linked to her blog. She's 'employed' in the same profession as you. Why should she get a real job and not you?

I think people are prejudiced against poor Meghan just because she shares McArdle's first name.

Which is sadder, those who proclaim that Iraq is the #1 most important battleground of our time, in which civilization hangs in the balance, while not actually believing those statements enough to act on them, or being fooled by such statements to the point where you actually do act on those claims?

Granted, naivete and ignorance is less of a sin than actual malice and dishonesty, but still.

Bush told me to go shopping and travel, and I've certainly done a lot of that over the past 7 years. I guess I've done my part!

It seems that McAllister, Murphy, Gonzales and Leroy Brown have gotten smart and are not enlisting in sufficient numbers to fight wars on behalf of Israeli-firsters like Feith, Perle, and Wolfowitz (or for corporate oil men like Bush, Cheney). - max bootlicker

Oddly enough, in the run-up to this Iraq war, various people were telling me that, as a Jew, I should support the Iraq war because it would be good for Israel and "isn't it great that American goyim will fight Israel's wars for it". Of course, if you repeat the words the junior Israel-lobbyist-wannabes said to you back at them, they'd accuse you of being a paranoid anti-Semite akin to Buchannan (who said the above mentioned similar statement) ...

FWIW, I don't believe that this war was ever about Israel. It was about various interest groups who stood to profit from war. Israel was dragged into this in order to make sure that Jews, who would otherwise be on the forefront of opposing a war (which, given Iraq's history of attacking Israel when attacked, could very well have been very bad for Israel), would support the war and also to make sure that opposition to the war could be labeled as anti-Zionist (and hence as anti-Semitic).

Moreover, call me paranoid, but the other thing about having this war be perceived as being in Israel's interests is that the conservative movement which pushed the war realized that, by making this a "pro-Israeli war", they could, should things go sour (as the not-surprisingly have gone), blame the war on "neo-cons" and drag up anti-Semitic stereotypes in order to deflect blame from "The Man" behind the war.

To a large extent the PNACers were suckers -- for Iranian agents (wouldn't be the first time -- how many of these people were involved in Iran/Contra?), arms manufacturers, oil interests (they sold the war as being about ensuring the supply of oil -- but in fact, oil interests wanted to drive up the price of oil to increase their profits -- and whaddya know, the war's been a success for them!), etc. And it's not suprising that they were: it's very easy to con someone who is too convinced of his own cleverness (as the PNAC types often are).

As always follow the money: who paid for the PNAC and who's benefitted from the war? Has it been Israel which has been under siege lately? Or has it been the military-industrial complex? Hmmm ...

OK, who posted first, me or Zengerle? I detect Matthew's elitist condescension towards the people who comment in his forum. I'm bitter and cling to the belief that I corrected him first!!!

I didn't know that McCain even had sons. That obviously puts the point about Meghan McCain in a very different context.

Seriously? Aren't you, like, paid to know this stuff? There was a story about this on the front page of the New York Times not two weeks ago.

That's awesome that Matt updates the post based on a correction from another blog -- from the New Republic, no less -- rather than reading the same correction in the comment thread on his very own blog!

(No, I'm not surprised. Just noting it for the record, unread as it may be.)

"UPDATE: Important factual error-like thing in the post, Jason Zengerle notes that McCain has a son in the Marines and another in the naval academy. I didn't know that McCain even had sons. That obviously puts the point about Meghan McCain in a very different context." -- Matt Yglesias

I assume the "very different" (in "very different context") is a euphemism for asinine, hypocritical and damning.

Considering your numerous rants about McCain you'd think his sons' service wouldn't come as news. (You are a political journalist, right? I mean I know you're not a basketball writer or music critic.)

Nice job, too, taking no real responsibility for the original pathetic post. ("factual error-like thing" and "a very different context" are pretty f-ing pathetic, dude.)

Appalling post. Way lame "update." I'm an Obama supported and even I'm appalled.

The Atlantic might really want to think about hiring some grown-ups.

McCain's family is obviously a bad example here, as his entire worldview is shaped by the military.

Fred Kagan could easily be put on a treadmill and sacrifice his daily cake allowance in order to serve in the military. Fifty pounds lighter, though, he'd still be a fucking bastard who'd be all too eager to let others take a bullet on his behalf.

Jim E. and Why-aren't-more-girls...,

Matt can't hear you. He's in a bubble.

Jim E. and Why-aren't-more-girls...,

Matt can't hear you. He's in a bubble.

I've been arguing this point for years. It's a solid argument, but it always seems to churn through the following cycle when it runs into stupid:

Me: If conservatives think the fate of the Western world depends on winning this war, then they ought to be signing up in droves.

Stupid: Do you think you should enlist in every single war that you support?

Me: Well, I support so few that I could do so. But the main thing is, there's a difference between supporting a war, and thinking the fate of the free world depends on fighting it.

Stupid: Did you support the Gulf War? Did you fight in it?

Me: Yes, and no. But I didn't think the fate of the free world hung on our kicking Saddam back out of Kuwait.

Stupid: So you support wars that you aren't enlisting to fight in, but you expect conservatives to do so. What a big fat hypocrite you are.

Me: Argh.

Matt: "I didn't know that McCain even had sons."

Christ on a crutch, Matt, even I knew that - and I think it's been mentioned in various posts about McCain from people here.

If you'd read your own goddamn blog, you might not be so fucking ignorant!

"as has been repeatedly noted above...that was a pretty nasty cheapshot against McCain, considering that he already has two kids in the service."

Nathan,

Was it really a cheap shot? If McCain was calling for having women exempted from military service in Iraq, then there would no hypocrisy on his part in regards to serving in Iraq, since his sons are already serving in the military. However, McCain has not done so, and his determination to stay in Iraq indefinitely and have our military intervene in a sectarian civil war will adversely affect both the men and women who currently serve in Iraq.


Therefore, if he really thinks that having our military try to crush the sectarian civil war in Iraq is absolutely vital to our national security, he should be willing to sacrifice all of his children for that struggle. If he thinks that war is a burden that should be borne by men alone, then he should be calling for the removal of our servicewomen from the Iraq theater.

It seems to me it would be hard to sign up foreigners right now. US citizenship? Great. Fighting in Iraq? Eh.

"KevinD,
Yeah, but its more complicated than that..."

Thanks for the info. It's always more complicated, but you have to admit it looks like it's starting down the same path. Hell, we got the "Coalition of The Willing". We even got the whole country of Ethiopia fighting our battles for us now.

I will however point out to the posters here that Matt was not merely saying that you had to join up to be credible in promoting the war. He also said you should be running recruiting drives.

I suppose the right wing trolls here think making stupid comments on blogs is the way of "running a recruiting drive."

Personally, I think Andrea Corr's "Shame on You" song about military recruitment is right on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RGU_Vv1wgc

See how cleverly I worked that in?

McCain's sincerity on the war is unimpeachable. He is the very opposite of a chickenhawk. So it's unfortunate that Matt would try to lump him and his family in with people like O'Hanlon, Kristol, etc.

But I agree with the larger point of his post.

Let's ignore the post itself for the moment.

You have posted how many times on McCain? Nearly all negative posts, many about the war.

And you had no idea he had two sons in the military?

This is pathetic. In the real sense of the word. You're meant to be a professional, and you don't know, or even bother to check.

if you'd even looked at Megan's blog (on the homepage also), you would see clearly her brother in uniform.

http://www.mccainblogette.com/docs/postings/040708/28.jpg

Just pathetic. I'd rather read Tim K's blog than this - at least he bothers to check things.

eltoro:

you're a ridiculous fool. no one should ask of any family that they be willing to sacrifice all of their progeny.

you're insane.

"McCain's sincerity on the war is unimpeachable. He is the very opposite of a chickenhawk. So it's unfortunate that Matt would try to lump him and his family in with people like O'Hanlon, Kristol, etc."

He didn't. He merely said Meghan McCain was old enough to enlist - which is true. Of course, he's too ignorant to know McCain already had kids in the military, but once informed, he dropped that issue.

But his main point was that if you believe Iraq is the central front on the war on terror and a clash of civilizations on which the future of America depends - which is what virtually every asshat neocon and right wing nitwit like McCain says - then you should be pushing for all eligible conservatives, indeed, everyone, to sign up.

And they aren't. Because they don't believe it. They just use that crap to justify their own money grubbing, power seeking motivations. And McCain is no different in that regard. He's using Iraq to get elected President so he can start more wars and throw his weight around like he did back in the day when he was called "The Punk".

And that's what he is - a punk. Screw his (incompetent) war record. And his solidarity with his men in a POW camp, while presumably noble, is irrelevant here.

I'm sure these morons wouldn't mind the rest of America being stupid enough to go along with their bullshit and sign up and run around the world killing Ay-rabs and other degenerate foreigners, but the bottom line is they aren't that concerned about that as long as the money for their war profiteer and oil company cronies keeps rolling in, and the campaign bribes keep rolling in, and the US military isn't actually DEFEATED anywhere to the degree that the failure is clearly apparent to everyone.

Unfortunately for them, Iraq - and Iran - is just where that eventuality - a major MILITARY defeat - indeed, a major military LOSS - is quite conceivably going to happen within the next couple of years. It's not likely to happen in Afghanistan, but it could happen in Iraq - and it will happen in Iraq if Iran is attacked.

But these jerks won't care even then. They'll just demand a draft, crank up the military budget and keep those body bags coming in from overseas and the contracts going to those military-industrial corporations while the oil companies chortle over the massive oil price spike.

That's Matt's point - and he's one hundred percent right about that: the "chickenhawk" thing doesn't even cover it.

It's more properly called "treason".

Hessians

Everything that was old before our grandfather's time is new again. It takes a while for people to forget how stupid an idea is before it can pop again without being immediately shot down as an obviously stupid idea.

We've taken over the role of Great Britain played in our own war of independence. We have similar problems of the ruling elite wanting to do something, suppress the liberty of a small and far-away land, that the wider society has no enthusiasm for. So instead of paying the social price that would have been incurred if they had sent out the press gangs needed to rope in enough Englishmen to do the job, the ruling elite under George III decided to add the extra troops needed to fight their splendid little colonial war by hiring them from job-starved German principalities, largely in Hesse.

Now, some of the initial damage that this idea caused was based on hysterical and completely unjustified fears that somehow these non-English troops would be more likely to rape, kill, pillage and burn than Englishmen. Good old American Know-Nothingism predated even the birth of the country. But the lasting damage to the British cause from hiring foreigners was the underlying truth that having to resort to hiring mercenaries to do what Britishers would have been willing to do if the country's heart had been in it, simply showed an infirmity of purpose that guaranteed their just defeat.

Same story as today, only the roles have changed.

Re Annoyed's comment "Matt, you forget that McCain has one son in the Marines who just returned from a tour in Iraq. IN addition, another is in the the Naval Academy and he could also end up in Iraq...."
----------
That's because they're bitter that their Senatorial father's such a fuckup and they joined the military so they could clutch some guns.

I myself would be more inclined to follow the "church" route. The Amish and Quakers up here in Philly got a religious deferment from military service hard-wired into the Constitution back in 1789. Those "simple farmers" aren't as fucking simple as they appear.

Re DAS's comments "Moreover, call me paranoid, but the other thing about having this war be perceived as being in Israel's interests is that the conservative movement which pushed the war realized that, by making this a "pro-Israeli war", they could, should things go sour (as the not-surprisingly have gone), blame the war on "neo-cons" and drag up anti-Semitic stereotypes in order to deflect blame from "The Man" behind the war.
"
---------
I agree -- at the end of the day, it was Big Oil's Whores -- George Bush and Dick Cheney -- who were issuing the orders.

What really pissed me off about the wealthy patrons of the Israel Lobby, however, was the way they knee-capped the Democratic opposition to the war. Not only did their Whores like Hillary Clinton lie down and spread their legs, those who opposed the war were shot whenever they spoke up.

Anti-war Howard Dean's campaign, in which I worked as a volunteer, was stabbed in the back in the Iowa primary by a 527 financed by billionare S Daniel Abraham. Bob Graham --who tried to warn us that Bush was lying -- went into retirement. The ordinary checks and balances based on competition between the two parties totally failed.

When you're fighting the enemy --the Republicans -- it's infuriating to have some of your own side suddenly turn on you from behind. To Do the equivalent of shooting you in the back and letting the Republicans win.

Plus George Bush and Dick Cheney were doing more than just covering an oil grab as defence of Israel. They were also trying to recruit billionaire supporters of Israel like Haim Saban over to the Republican Party.

The only reason it didn't work with Saban was noted by Haim Saban in his Dec 2006 Haaretz interview: George W has been the best friend Israel ever had but he's obsolete. He has "no political capital left " whereas Hillary "will be good for Israel".

As I've noted, most of America's Jews don't know what's going on -- and are middle class professionals without the money to play in this game even if they cared one way or the other.
Some -- like MJ Rosenberg --are bitter critics of the Neocons.

But those Jews are being put at risk by the Israel Lobby. The disloyal Lobby --with its indifference to American lives lost in Iraq -- is similar to the Zionists who cut a deal with British PM David Lloyd George and who then put out pamphlets calling on German Jews to betray their country for the sake of the British Balfour Declaration.

German Jews ignored that appeal to treason -- but it helped Hitler create his Big Lie. It helped Hitler rise to power, financed by the rich men truly responsible for the disaster of WWI.

Those who think Big Oil Republicans would not cover their ass , support a similar demagogue, and scapegoat the Jews if our economy collapsed are fooling themselves.

Re Glen Tomkins's comment "Same story as today, only the roles have changed."
----------
With some differences. George III's Dutch bankers recognized the North American occupation was a losing investment after Southern militia victories at Cowpens and King's Mountain.

When they cut off George III's line of credit, George III had to throw in the towel, was declared insane by the British elite, and was replaced by his son.

Our King George of today, by contrast , has his bankers in China. But he's also been able to steal $3 Trillion out of our Social Security/Medicare accounts -- covered by a bald-faced lie that he would like to "save" Social Security and that he is "investing the surplus" in US Treasuries.

This thread is a huge exercise in point missing. The point is this. In WW2, numerous 30-somethings signed up for the military. Even those who didn't sign up led recruitment drives, sold war bonds, collected scrap metal and tires, etc. CEO's joined the government as "dollar a year men". Why? Because that's what a country does when its very way of life is threatened. (Plus, there was a draft.)

The reason why this isn't happening now is because nobody really believes that our very way of life is threatened. Conservatives just say that because they like to pretend that this is World War IV, and because they are trying to sell a war of choice to a public that isn't interested in continuing to fight one. So they pretend it isn't a war of choice.

So Matt isn't saying that everyone SHOULD sign up. He is saying that the fact that everyone isn't signing up, leading recruitment drives, and otherwise donating their time and efforts to the war is a pretty good indication that when conservatives say how important they think the war is, they are lying.

Recruiting a Foreign Legion as a secondary force is neither a crazy nor unproven idea. France and Britain have used them for centuries, without apparent ill effects. Like everything else in life, Legions have dangers and can be used to excesss.

I presented such a proposal in "Lessons Learned from the American Expedition to Iraq" (29 December 2005).
http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2005/12/29/lessons-learned/

As have others. As long as our grand strategy requires fighting foreign wars with unclears (unclear to the public, that is), recruitment and retention of a citizen army will be difficult and very expensive.

In this, as in so many other things, outsourcing to lower-cost foreign labor has its advantages.

Or we might develop a grand strategy that does not require so many foreign bases, foreign wars. Defensive strategies are, after all, often stronger than offensive ones.

raising an army of foreigners to fight the Iraq War for us. I think this is a problematic concept [...]

Well, yes.

What's confusing to me however is that when debating the initial invasion, and for several years afterward, I heard the argument from the left roughly a metric-bajillion times that we had to "get" some magical number of allies to help us fight the war, or else it was (invalid or something). In short, the argument from enlightened progressives went, we needed to... well...raise an army of foreigners to fight the war for us.

Indeed, the left was and (for all I know) still is convinced that the supposedly insufficient number of foreign nations contributing troops to the Iraq effort is, by itself, a pretty good argument against it. John Kerry made it a central plank of his President campaign that if he were elected, he would "get" more foreign troops to participate in the warfare for us. This, I was led to believe, was an argument in his favor.

So I guess all of that was a load of crap, huh?

Matt,

You should do some sort of penance for your obliviousness/ignorance about sons in the military: maybe force yourself to write a few positive posts about McCain.

Dilan Esper,

Just because you haven't heard about efforts to support the war effort, doesn't mean they don't exist. There are people in their thirties who have taken time off from well-paying jobs to serve in Iraq -- one of them has even written for the Atlantic (or at least his father has): Owen West. There's also the CEO who founded SpiritofAmerica.net to support requests from servicemen in Iraq and Afghanistan for humanitarian supplies. Do a little homework and you will find similar organizations. That the mainstream media doesn't publicize them doesn't mean they don't exist. Which leads to a related point:

Today's media is far more cynical, adversarial, and less patriotic in its war coverage than the WWII-era media. Because of that, our collective memory of WWII has been mythologized to some extent. The soldiers sent into battle with inadequate armor, the American anti-war protesters, etc., have largely disappeared down the memory hole. Comparisons of any post-WWII war to WWII are dishonest when the radically different media environment isn't acknowledged.

There is no doubt that Israel's security was not the sole reason for the Iraq war, but to discount this reason is foolhardy. Here are a few pre-invasion quotes to jog your memories.

Michael Ledeen in "War Against The Terror Masters" ... "First and foremost, we must bring down the terror regimes, beginning with the Big Three: Iran, Iraq, and Syria. And then we have to come to grips with Saudi Arabia. … Once the tyrants in Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have been brought down, we will remain engaged. …We have to ensure the fulfillment of the democratic revolution. … Stability is an unworthy American mission."

Benjamin Netanyahu, Wall Street Journal Op-Ed 09/20/02:

"For how else can one explain opposition to President Bush's plan to dismantle Saddam Hussein's regime?

I do not mean to suggest that there are not legitimate questions about a potential operation against Iraq. Indeed, there are. But the question of whether removing Saddam's regime is itself legitimate is not one of them. Equally immaterial is the argument that America cannot oust Saddam without prior approval of the international community.

This is a dictator who is rapidly expanding his arsenal of biological and chemical weapons, who has used these weapons of mass destruction against his subjects and his neighbors, and who is feverishly trying to acquire nuclear weapons."

Efraim Halevy, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's national security adviser, former chief of Mossad, January, 2003:

"The shock waves emerging from post-Saddam Baghdad could have wide-ranging effects in Tehran, Damascus, and in Ramallah, ...we have hopes of greater stability, greater enhanced confidence from the Persian Gulf to the Atlantic shores of Morocco."

Notice how the "chickenhawk" farce so childishly employed by the antiwar factions that compose the "netroots" (and even by snarky Ivy-League graduates with their own blogs!) is absolutely vitiated by the fact that McCain has a vested interest in the Iraq War through the service of his son. Notice, also, how they deftly shift their criticism from alleged cowardice to the sweeping indictment of "malicious warmongering." It is primarily for this reason that those of you in the comments section of this blog (and DailyKos, MyDD, Democratic Underground, etc.) can never be taken seriously, are only pandered to transiently by national candidates to office so that you may ultimately shut up, and -- most importantly -- will never be entrusted with an inkling of political power. Thank God.

Dilan: "This thread is a huge exercise in point missing....So Matt isn't saying that everyone SHOULD sign up. He is saying that the fact that everyone isn't signing up, leading recruitment drives, and otherwise donating their time and efforts to the war is a pretty good indication that when conservatives say how important they think the war is, they are lying."

Uh, I said that a few posts up above you...

You're late. And I'm on the West Coast, so what's your excuse?

Max: "There is no doubt that Israel's security was not the sole reason for the Iraq war, but to discount this reason is foolhardy."

Trust me, I don't, despite emphasizing the war profiteers and the oil companies and the neocons. I don't know why people insist on making it either/or. I had a long argument via email with Arnold Evans over this last year. He's convinced it's all for Israel, I say it's only partly for Israel - and not necessarily the largest part simply because scum like Dick Cheney aren't either Zionists or neocons but they have the money and they wield the power via the corporations.

bman: "absolutely vitiated by the fact that McCain has a vested interest in the Iraq War through the service of his son."

Maybe you think it's vitiated. It's clear to everyone else that McCain is not like the rest of the morons like you arguing for this war, and furthermore that his reasons are even dumber because he DOES have kids that stand to get killed.

"Notice, also, how they deftly shift their criticism from alleged cowardice to the sweeping indictment of "malicious warmongering."

Where is the contradiction? "Malicious war mongers" are almost always cowards as well, which is the point here. McCain was never a hero when he was bombing civilians from the air, nor will he be at risk if the US attacks Iran. So he's still a fucking coward. He's "The Punk" as they used to call when he was younger. And punks are cowards who are belligerent because they fear everyone else. And the worst punks are those who aren't at any real risk of getting their noses disjointed because they're politicians, not soldiers.

He's also a deluded moron who thinks his service justifies destroying the US military and economy in the service of some nitwit notion of military greatness that went out with WWI or even earlier. He won't learn until his sons are killed - and maybe not even then. He might not learn until some returning vet who's had enough - some new McVeigh, who was created in Gulf War I - assassinates him as President.

Re: The soldiers sent into battle with inadequate armor, the American anti-war protesters, etc., have largely disappeared down the memory hole.

??!!?
Anti-Ameican protesters in this country during WWII? Fred, you are living in some very far-away alternate universe! The previous generation of my family (parents, aunts etc.) lived through that period and had no such memories of things. There were no anti-American protests during WWII. Good grief. While I'm sure you could find someone criticizing specific decisions FDR took on the conduct of the war, there was virtually no dissent (except for a handful of absolute pacifists) about fighting the war in the first place.

JonF

Yes there was. It takes maybe 5 minutes to look it up. Faster I guess if you use the web. That is why it took so long for us to get involved. For example, FDR had to jump through a lot of hoops to set up the Lend-Lease program to satisfy people who wanted to stay neutral. If it wasn't for Pearl Harbor, which obviously muted the anti-war advocates quite a bit, who knows when we would have gotten involved. That's why there has been the persistent theory that FDR knew about the Pearl Harbor attacks but didn't do anything about it, because he wanted America to enter the war (I don't believe it, but it is out there). And even after the attacks, there were still people against the war. You probably shouldn't begin statements with "There were no" and then back up the statements with anecdotal family evidence.

Forget their own children. Why aren't there more calls to increase the size of the army or to get the draft going again? The war in Iraq is the most important conflict of our time, but not important enough to risk losing an election over?

You need a lot more practice thinking like a conservative. They aren't supporting a draft because it's not needed — we're winning! The surge worked, didn't you notice?

Anti-Ameican protesters in this country during WWII? Fred, you are living in some very far-away alternate universe! The previous generation of my family (parents, aunts etc.) lived through that period and had no such memories of things.

To be fair, I think there was quite a bit of opposition to the U.S. getting involved in World War II. (Also to be fair, Fred said "American anti-war protesters," not "Anti-American protesters," which is a pretty big difference.) The funny thing is, though, opposition to World War II in America came from the right wing. The far left was happy to be allying with the Soviet Union after Germany betrayed them, and the center and center-left in American politics were aware that Germany, Italy and Japan weren't the good guys. Most people who opposed the war (and probably everyone who still opposed the war after Pearl Harbor) was either a dogmatic isolationist like Ron Pa/ul or Pat Buchanan, or thought the Nazis had the right idea.

Umm..I'm pretty sure that Jimmy Stewart's ear kept him from serving. His brother Harry on the other hand...

Stewart served with distinction during WW2 and wound up flying over 20 combat missions. All told: 27 years in the Army/Air Force -- even flying a single mission during Vietnam -- and retired from the service with the rank of Brigadier General.

Anti-war Howard Dean's campaign, in which I worked as a volunteer, was stabbed in the back in the Iowa primary by a 527 financed by billionare S Daniel Abraham. - Don Williams

According to Emil Fackenheim, the 614th mitzvah is to never grant Hitler a posthumous victory. Many Jews essentially believe "if anti-Semites say we do [X], then we Jews might as well do [X] for fun, political gain and profit". However, IMHO, for a Jew to behave in just the way anti-Semites fear us Jews behave is to grant Hitler the victory of being correct.

It's bad enough when anti-Semites claim Jews are back-stabbers. It's even worse when Jews use the same rhetoric about others (e.g. the conservative rhetoric, often spewed forth by Jews, about "liberals" -- read Jews -- not supporting the {Iraq/Vietnam} war and that causing the war to fail). But it's the worst when Jews actually are back-stabbers and thus provide an example about which Hitler could be right.

Anti-Semites say "oh those nebbishy Jews look harmless, but give them power ..." ... we Jews, when we do have power, need to never, ever give anti-Semites the victory of being correct when they make such statements -- alas, some in our community seem almost driven to grant anti-Semites the victory of being correct about our people.

I dunno what kinda mental kronk causes this behavior, but it really is damaging to us and I wish it could be cured, and quickly before it does any more damage to the Jewish people, to Israel and to the U.S.A. and to the world!


Comments closed April 28, 2008.