They Hate Us, They Really Hate Us

In his recent op-ed column, one argument Max Boot made is that we should stay in Iraq out of deference to the Iraqi people's wishes: "An early American departure is the last thing that most Iraqis or their elected representatives want. (In a recent ABC/BBC poll only 38 percent of Iraqis said that coalition forces should leave at once.)"

This is a pretty selective reading of the poll's results. It's true that only 38 percent said that coalition forces should leave at once. It's also true that only 36 percent of Iraqis say that the surge of forces has improved security in areas where the surge forces have been sent (53 percent say they've made things worse), only 30 percent percent say the surge has made things better in the non-surge areas (49 percent say they've made things worse), and that only four percent say that they have "a great deal of confidence" in American troops. Sixteen percent say they have "quite a lot" of confidence, 33 percent have "not very much" confidence and 46 percent have "no confidence" in our soldiers.

41 percent of Iraqis say they "strongly oppose" the presence of Coalition forces in Iraq and 31 percent "somewhat oppose" their presence. And yet, despite all this, John McCain thinks we can stay there peacefully for 100 or 10,000 years and Max Boot wants us to believe that Iraqis are eager for us to stay the course. But there's just no evidence of it. Iraqis are, naturally, concerned about the consequences of an American departure. But we also decisively lost the confidence and support of the Iraqi population years ago. Under the circumstances, it's nearly impossible for us to play a constructive role.

Comments

Under the circumstances, it's nearly impossible for us to play a constructive role.

You're on the side of the angels here, Matthew, but really this is a bit obtuse. "Nearly?" Now if, indeed, the United States was a benevolent nation truely dedicated to playing a constructive role in Iraq, the fact that we "decisively lost the confidence and support of the Iraqi population years ago" would make playing that role dificult. But since any desire to play such a constructive role is subordinate to our own perceived interests, which, by and large, are antithetical to playing a positive role in Iraq, the "lost confidence" is besides the point.

As you seem to regonize at times but then promptly forget, our presence in Iraq has exactly nothing to do with helping the Iraqi people. Everyone there knows this; the courageous ones are fighting us; the only people on our side are the cowardly and corrupt.

Posted by LarryM | April 2, 2008 3:44 PM

If I could recommend one article or segment for Americans to read or watch regarding the current Iraq debate, it would be this interview -- the entire interview -- with Sinan Antoon and Ali Fadhil, an Iraqi professor and journalist, respectively, currently living in the U.S. -- Glenn Greenwald, introducing the Charlie Rose clip featured in this post.

I strongly concur. It's long, but worth it. As the bearded poetry professory states near the end, for Iraq, Americans are like a virus, a disease . . . there will be no healthy Iraq as long as the US continues to occupy the ravaged body. (That last bit after the elipsis is my rough reduction of his overall message.)

Posted by Bragan | April 2, 2008 3:58 PM

Not that I don't favor withdrawal, but I found the poll numbers encouraging. They do seem substantially more optimistic than they were in August across the board, in almost every metric. The improvements over February 07 are less marked, but still noticeable.

The "Are the US forces making the security situation better or worse" numbers moved from 18/72 to 27/61. I think the data supports the "things are getting better" narrative, while still sucking utterly.

Posted by Anthony Damiani | April 2, 2008 4:05 PM

When convenient the warmongers bring out the "for the good of the poor people". Before the war they used the "liberate the poor Iraqi people argument" before the occupation, just as they used the "liberate the poor Afghani women" argument in the occupation before that.

Alas, the record shows that they are merely arguments of convenience, not said out of any real conviction. All one has to do is look at their writings around the time of the Fallujah "operation" in late 2004 to see what they really think of the "poor Iraqi people".

Posted by Ren | April 2, 2008 4:06 PM

Q1.Overall, how would you say things are going in your life these days? Would you say things are very good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?

I realize the interviews weren't in English, but contrasting "very" and "quite" seems kind of confusing.

Posted by Consumatopia | April 2, 2008 4:11 PM

"Only" 4 in 10 want the troops to leave immediately? And here I thought we weren't welcome. [/sarcasm]

Posted by Tel | April 2, 2008 4:16 PM

There you go, giving facts. As the commentators at Meagan's points out, you are an idiot loser!

Posted by John McCain: More of the Same | April 2, 2008 4:20 PM

Larry M writes: But since any desire to play such a constructive role is subordinate to our own perceived interests, which, by and large, are antithetical to playing a positive role in Iraq, the "lost confidence" is besides the point.

As I see it, our own perceived interests are very much tied to the Iraqis' perceptions about our military presence.

U.S. policy has driven thousands of liberated Iraqi allies, as well as secular Shiite factions, to the Sadrists, and the momentum continues to build. Khomeinism may not be a reality given the millions of Sunnis and more secular Shiites, but if we continue to pick at the scab through our military presence, it will only generate a more powerful Khomeinist current, led by Sadr's widening community of support.

Posted by AKBY | April 2, 2008 4:24 PM

Under the circumstances, it's nearly impossible for us to play a constructive role.

Huh? This makes no sense at all. The Iraqi people obviously think that it is possible for us to play a "constructive role" - after all, if they oppose our presence there, what other reason could there be for the Iraqi people to oppose us leaving right away? They must want us to stick around to play some role there - I somehow I doubt the Iraqi people are wanting us to stick around to play a non-constructive role.

Matthew is utterly muddle-headed about Iraq. Even the most straight-forward logical things about the country appear to be completely obscure to Matthew. Really, how hard are these things to understand?

Posted by Al | April 2, 2008 4:36 PM

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black Matt. You seem to have missed most of the statistics in the poll.

This doesn't sound to me like the US leaving is a huge priority for most Iraqis.

What is the single biggest problem facing your life these days?
U.S. occupation/presence 5%

Not personally, but in terms of Iraq, what in your opinion is the single biggest problem facing Iraq as a whole?
U.S. occupation/presence 6%

Lets also ignore all the positive news in the poll. For example:

"Overall, how would you say things are going in your life these days?"

August 08 Very good or Quite good: 54% which is up from 39% a year ago

Quite Bad or Very bad: 46% down from 60% a year ago

What is your expectation for how things overall in your life will be in a year from now?

Much better/somewhat better: 45% up from 29% a year ago

Somewhat Worse/much worse 18% down from 39% a year ago.

Do you think your children will have a better life than you, worse, or about the same?

Better 39% up from 33%
Worse 28% down from 42%

Now thinking about how things are going, not for you personally, but for Iraq as a whole, how would you say things are going in our country overall these days?

very good quite good 43% up from 22%

Quite Bad/Very Bad 56% down from 78%

From today’s perspective and all things considered, was it absolutely right, somewhat right, somewhat wrong, or absolutely wrong that US-led coalition forces invaded Iraq in spring 2003?

Absolutely/Somewhat Right 49% up from 37%
Absolutely/Somewhat Wrong 50% down from 58%

Posted by Dave | April 2, 2008 4:48 PM

Max Boot's dishonest, hackish argument* by excluded middle — do Iraqis want American forces to leave "at once" or don't they — would induce seizures if it weren't for an epidemic of outrage overload.

Very few people on any side of the issue want Americans to withdraw overnight, or within a week. 150,000 people or so (very roughly speaking; I don't know what the official count of American soldiers in Iraq is, and I also don't know what isn't included in the official count) can't just get on buses and form a convoy to the nearest border of one of our allies. There are local groups we have dealt with and/or might need to deal with, there's a ton of equipment and real estate we might or might not want to leave behind, etc. If all American soldiers left "at once" — say, going from current troop levels to an embassy guard in a week — it would be almost as chaotic as the initial invasion was.

Too bad the polling company didn't think to offer as an alternative, "Do you think America should start within the next few weeks on a withdrawal planned to take into account the realities of the security situation and the welfare of Iraqi civilians and institutions, and which probably would take between one and two years to reduce troop levels to those necessary to defend a foreign embassy like any other?" But that wouldn't be used as a question in a poll for a lot of reasons.

* Normally I'm not so judgmental. Or at least, not so explicit about it. But quoting the 38 percent number is simply misleading. It may not be the majority of Iraqis, but it is the most popular of several different options. The second most popular choice out of six, "remain until security is restored," was chosen by 35 percent of Iraqis. If you think about it, that answer should be such a no-brainer, it's telling that it wasn't the most popular. Ridiculously low percentages of 14 percent and 10 percent preferred, respectively, "remain until the Iraqi government is stronger" and "remain until the Iraqi security forces can operate independently."

Posted by Cyrus | April 2, 2008 4:55 PM

The vast majority of Iraqis (72%) oppose the US occupation of Iraq and yet the warmongers (both Democrat and Republican) tell us we cannot leave for the good of the Iraqis.

The vast majority of Ukranians do not want their nation in NATO. Yet the same warmongers (both Democrats and Republicans) insist we need to include Ukraine for the good of its people.

It's a freakin' joke....

Posted by hankest | April 2, 2008 5:05 PM

Dave, get a fucking clue. For those Iraqis who are not displaced or affected directly by the sectarian cleansing, the fact that violence was down recently (until last week) would obviously adjust their perceptions.

This is nothing to the purpose of establishing that "things are getting better". It is a "wane", to be followed by last week's "wax" and next fall's "wax" and next year's "wax".

Besides which, the average joe in the street doesn't necessarily have a correct assessment of the overall state of things outside of his immediate environment. Nonetheless, the fact that the poll clearly has tons of negative reactions to the US presence has to speak for itself.

Especially if you were to compare this poll to one before the invasion. Probably most Iraqis felt the Saddam government sucked (but of course they wouldn't say so to a pollster out of fear), but that things in general were pretty good considering. And they were, by virtually every measure of Iraqi society. Even the sanctions hadn't damaged Iraq as badly as the war has. Go back before the sanctions and things looked even better for the average Iraq in terms of education, economy, lifestyle, you name it.

It's just ridiculous to try to spin a temporary upswing in Iraq as some sort of "proof" that things are now sorting themselves out and that the US can take the credit on top of it.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | April 2, 2008 8:36 PM

I am just wondering where was the column by Max Boot favoring the poppular Iraqi positions when early in the occupation, before security REALLY degenerated, polls showed Iraqis wanting Americans out immediately by better than 2 to 1; or the polls showing Iraqis feeling it justified for Americans to be attacked and killed. Did he write such a column?

Posted by della Rovere | April 2, 2008 9:53 PM

Another recent poll showed 95% of Iraqis would prefer an ice cream cone to a sharp stick in the eye (5% was unsure of what ice cream is).

This kind of polling is the height of absurdity. Everyone, including me, would like to see US troops out of Iraq yesterday. The question is, as Joe Biden repeatedly pointed out during his campaign, "Then what?" I don't think any responsible leaders in either country are going to take Matt's advice and just roll the dice.

It is most discouraging to read so many posts that indicate a tunnel-vision kind of anti-Americanism which views any military action by us as uniformly negative, and without any historical context.

Posted by Robert Powell | April 3, 2008 1:46 AM

"It is most discouraging to read so many posts that indicate a tunnel-vision kind of anti-Americanism which views any military action by us as uniformly negative, and without any historical context."

Nobody posted anything anti-American here.

Hush now, Bobby. Adults are talking.

Posted by Joel | April 3, 2008 7:18 AM

contrasting "very" and "quite" seems kind of confusing

Must be the BBC influence in the poll. In English, as opposed to American, usage, the "quite" means something like "just about" or "more or less". Only Americans use is as an intensifier equivalent to "very."

Posted by rea | April 3, 2008 8:52 AM

the "quite" means something like "just about"

What's funny is this doesn't help much, either, because "just about" means something different in English vs. American. In English it means 'just barely', in American it means 'not quite but almost'.

I watch a lot of English soccer (football) and always notice this -- "The defender just about cleared it" means he DID clear it, barely; to an American ear it means he almost did but didn't.

Posted by Ryan | April 3, 2008 11:14 AM