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What Do We Talk About?

18 Apr 2008 11:52 am

Ken Silverstein kindly mentions my book over at Harper's in the course of disagreeing with me about the merits of U.S. diplomatic outreach to Hamas in the absence of Israeli willingness to talk with the Hamas leadership. He writes:

Why would the United States government allow Israel to determine to whom it talks? The only way to reach a political settlement in the Middle East is for an American president to pressure Israel to make concessions. It’s hard to exert much pressure if our government allows Israel to determine who speaks for the Palestinians.

I don't think our substantive positions are very far apart here. It seems to me that Israel needs to try to talk with the Hamas leadership (the idea that this would give them "credibility," much-mooted in the hawkish press, strikes me as bizarre -- as if the Arab public finds people more credible the more closely associated with Israel they are) and that the U.S. government ought to pressure Israel to do so. But it's a little hard for me to see what we could talk to Hamas about in the absence of Israeli participation -- the U.S. can and should play a constructive role in trying to resolve the conflict, but talks on the Israeli-Arab conflict need Israeli participation.

A later Silverstein post notes that Israel and Hamas are almost certainly already talking through backchannels. Which is good. The United States can and should participate in whatever's happening in that regard and try to lay the groundwork (including by pressuring Israel insofar as that's necessary) for all the stakeholders to start meeting against and talking resolution.

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Comments (17)

U.S. can and should play a constructive role in trying to resolve the conflict, but talks on the Israeli-Arab conflict need Israeli participation.

US willingness to talk to Hamas independent of Israeli approval might be or have the effect of pressure on Israel to change its stance.

Economic aid, violence _in_ the PA, human rights, etc. The poverty and unemplyment in Gaza are obviously huge problems - if we could do soemthignt to help it would undoubtedly make negotiations with Israel easier, as (after all) Hamas doesn't exactly see us as a neutral party in all this.

I would like Mr. Yglesias to inform us as to what he thinks Israel and Hamas should talk about. Since the Hamas position is that the Government of Israel must go out of business and the Israeli position is that it will do so when Mr. Maashal and Mr. Haniyeh see the back of their own ears, it would not seem to be amenable to a negotiated settlement. Does Mr. Yglesias think that the US should negotiate with Osama bin Laden?

I hate to inform Mr. Yglesias of the unfortunate fact that some disputes cannot be solved by negotiations. In the legal world, it is stated as if one can't negotiate, one has to litigate. In the diplomatic world, Clausewitz put it best, war is diplomacy carried out by other means.

Economic aid, violence _in_ the PA, human rights, etc. The poverty and unemplyment in Gaza are obviously huge problems - if we could do soemthignt to help it would undoubtedly make negotiations with Israel easier, as (after all) Hamas doesn't exactly see us as a neutral party in all this.

I would like Mr. Yglesias to inform us as to what he thinks Israel and Hamas should talk about. Since the Hamas position is that the Government of Israel must go out of business...

How about seeing if Hamas might be willing to change their mind? The whole theme of 'we'll negotiate when they agree to all our terms' defeats the whole point of having negotiations. Which I guess is what you want, since that increases the chances that your genocidal fantasies will come true.

Matt,

The "credibility" issue is code for us showing them (or their political position) any kind of respect.

In short, we refuse to treat them as legitimate representives of their polity because they do not recognize our right to set the terms of their arguments. By meeting with them we would be granting them "credibility" inasmuch as it would mean that they really do represent the will of the people who elected them.

IMHO, a great deal of the attitudes of our foriegn policy elite are very very childish.

"Why would the United States government allow Israel to determine to whom it talks?"

AIPAC campaign contributions.

Arguably, we missed our best chance in a generation already. When disgust with Fatah's corruption lead to a bunch of "independents" (actually Hamas supporters, but not formally members) being elected as the government of the Palestinian Authority, we could have treated them as we did Sein Fein in Northern Ireland. And should have.

By ignoring the actual terrorist background and links of Sein Fein, the British managed to end decades of violence and bring peace to Northern Ireland. If we (and Israel, of course) had done the same, we might have taken a large step towards peace in the Middle East. But we didn't.

Unfortunately, "might have been" is more relevant to historians than to making current policy. Having done what was done, the question becomes: what can we usefully do now? And it is a lot harder question to answer.

"The only way to reach a political settlement in the Middle East is for an American president to pressure Israel to make concessions."

The best way to get Israel to make concessions would be for Israelis to have something to show for previous concessions. What did they get for the concession of ceding Gaza to the Palestinians? Rockets, raids, etc. So why give up more land?

"The poverty and unemplyment in Gaza are obviously huge problems"

Palestinians already receive more foreign aid per capita than any other group on earth -- the UN even has one organization to deal with the grandchildren of Palestinian refugees, and another one to deal with the world's other refugees; there are more UN resources at work in the Palestinian areas than in all of sub-Saharan Africa. Money isn't the issue. The issue is that Hamas persists in launching attacks against Israel from Gaza, and this provokes military responses from Israel. If Hamas would stop attacking Israel, Israel would leave Gaza alone and the Palestinians -- who are among the most educated and entrepreneurial of Arabs -- could turn Gaza into a peaceful and prosperous enclave.

What is needed is constructive engagement - as in what brought peace to southern Africa in the 1980s. You have to build confidence with all parties that their worst fears will not occur by taking real steps to get people to work together. Unilateral action, like the withdrawals from Lebanon and Gaza, don't do this because they are based on magic faith that separation in a crowded neighborhood offers some sort of long term solution. Let's get Chet Crocker to work his magic in the Middle East the way he worked magic in southern African (remember the pro-South African Caseyites and probably Reagan hated him as much as the disinvestment crowd). In short diplomacy works when it is principled and unwavering and always on.

Re Jake

The Palestinians, Israelis,and Jordanians are already trying to work together on a plan to buikd a canal to divert Red Sea water to the Dead Sea, the level of which is falling steadily. This would be of substantial economic benefit to all three parties but unfortunately appears to be on hold due to the Palestinians insistence on getting 100% of nothing instead of 33.3 % of something.

A previous attempt of the Palestinians and Israelis to work together by setting up an industrial site on the Gaza border failed when the Palestinians showed more interest in homicide bombers and qassem rockets then gainful employment. As I stated on another thread, one can lead a horse to water but one can't make him/her drink.

Re DaveNYC

What is it that makes Mr. Dave believe that the Hamas terrorists have any inclination to modify their rigid position? I am again posting a link to an op-ed by one Mahmoud al-Zahar who purports to be the Hamas foreign minister which would appear not to be very conciliatory.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/16/AR2008041602899.html?hpid%3Dopinionsbox1&sub=AR

Re wj

There is a big difference between Sein Fein and Hamas. Sein Fein never demanded that the Government of Great Britain go out of business.

Credibility in the Arab world?

When did caving in become credibility? If someone points a gun at me and asks for my wallet have I gained their trust by giving them my wallet?

Matt also talks about stakeholders! Is Osama bin Laden a "stakeholder"?

Talk about people forfeiting their right to be taken seriously Matt.

What is it that makes Mr. Dave believe that the Hamas terrorists have any inclination to modify their rigid position?

Given my complete lack of ESP, I would actually have to go and talk with the group in order to figure out their inclinations. That's the whole negotiation thing, the talking and stuff. What are you afraid of? That Israel will talk with Hamas and that Hamas will convince them to go out of business?

You show up, you talk, you make progress or you don't. Refusing to talk though is just stupid. Unless you really want the endgame to involve rivers of blood.

Re daveNYC

Mr. daveNYC, read the op-ed which I linked to which indicates that Hamas has no interest in any agreement. There are some people one can't negotiate with. At the risk of invoking Godwins' Law, one doesn't negotiate with Hitler.

Re daveNYC

Here is another article for Mr. daveNYC. The Palestinians have fired on trucks delivering fuel to the Gaza Strip and then complain that they are running short of fuel. This would be hilarious if it weren't so stupid. Now tell me again Mr. daveNYC who the Government of Israel is supposed is supposed to negotiate with.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3533205,00.html

I'm in agreement with SLC here.

Hamas should not be negotiating with Israel. The government of Israel should not be negotiated with. No unilateral, bilateral or multilateral negotiations can be conducted with terrorists.

Hamas is a legitimate dissident faction dedicated to bringing democracy to the nation of Palestine. The government of Israel is a terrorist, criminal, illegal state and needs to be "wiped from the pages of time" as somebody recently correctly quoted someone else. They are a threat to regional and world peace and they have weapons of mass destruction.

They are sponsors of terrorist acts around the world (see the assassinations of Black September members in European countries, including the assassination of innocent persons, plus the bombings of Americans in Egypt, plus the attack on US ships.)

The US should remove all support from Israel of any kind, demand in the UN Security Council that Israel's nuclear weapons arsenal be dismantled, and failing agreement in the Security Council due to support of other rogue nations involved in the "Axis of Evil", should immediately invade and forcibly dismantle the Israel government, and immediately install a Palestinian government friendly to the US, so we can get the oil - er, the matzo balls, or whatever...

Re Richard Steven Hack

Yessir, the Hamas terrorists want to bring democracy to Palestine, just like their counterparts in Afghanistan, the Taliban, wanted to bring democracy to that country.


Comments closed May 02, 2008.

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