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Confidence Games

20 May 2008 04:24 pm

An interesting point from Michael Cohen yesterday: John McCain wants us to simultaneously believe that expressing a willingness to negotiate with Iranian leaders will "reinforce their confidence" but also to run around the country warning that people need to become much more alarmed about the threat posed by Iran, and stop dismissing them as some sort of medium-sized, middle-income country that's far away and has a barely functioning military. It's a bit of a tension.

More broadly, it's worth noting how hollow McCain's account of the Iranian threat winds up being:

But that does not mean that the threat posed by Iran is insignificant. On the contrary, right now Iran provides some of the deadliest explosive devices used in Iraq to kill our soldiers. They are the chief sponsor of Shia extremists in Iraq, and terrorist organizations in the Middle East. And their President, who has called Israel a "stinking corpse," has repeatedly made clear his government's commitment to Israel's destruction. Most worrying, Iran is intent on acquiring nuclear weapons. The biggest national security challenge the United States currently faces is keeping nuclear material out of the hands of terrorists. Should Iran acquire nuclear weapons, that danger would become very dire, indeed.

All the work here is being done by the ludicrous hypothetical that were Iran to attempt to build a nuclear weapon (which the most recent NIE says they're not doing) and they were to succeed (which they might or might not) and then give the weapon to a terrorist (!) who wanted to launch an unprovoked nuclear attack (!) on the United States, that that would be very dire, indeed. And indeed it would, much as if Russia decided to launch a full-scale nuclear strike on U.S. targets that would be an even more dire threat. But we don't normally spend our time worrying about crazy not-gonna-happen scenarios.

Similarly, the Iranian government's tough talk against Israel would be a lot more threatening to Israel were it backed up by some kind of actual capacity to destroy Israel. But in the real world, Israel has a vastly superior military establishment and a substantial nuclear deterrent.

Now we get to Iraq, where the hawks' logic becomes circular. Iran is evil because they're (allegedly) backing people who are fighting us in Iraq so we (a) need to stay in Iraq, and (b) need to fight the Iranians. We need to do (a) in order to stick it to the Iranians, and we need to do (b) in order to make (a) more viable. But that's nonsense. This is precisely one of the things we should be negotiating over -- a mutually acceptable outcome in Iraq. For Iran, that probably means an Iraq that's not used by the United States as a base of operations for regime change. For the United States, it means a scenario where our soldiers aren't being killed. Certainly the fact that we're engaged in proxy exchanges with Iran isn't a reason to avoid talking to the Iranians and trying to lower, rather than raise, the temperature.

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Comments (26)

sure it's nonsense. but people like nonsense. they eat it up. they just can't get enough.

Your capacity for cognitive dssonance is like a muscle...you gotta exercise it if you want it to grow.

Someone might also want to point out that the scary bad guys of Teheran are also supporting ... exactly the same set of Shiite Iraqi leaders that we are!

Male menopause. Once his old balls shut down, everything started seeming scary.

He had to tell the driver of his bus to slow down, too.
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It's worth remembering that one of the small shots that Hillary has of the Dem nomination is a US attack on Iran, coupled with superdelegates worried by Obama's response in the face of a rally-round-the-flag blip, before HRC has definitively withdrawn. It's all quite possible.

Remember the hawks' original 1996 program ("A New Strategy for Protecting the Realm") was 1) "regime-change" in Iraq, financed by their oil; 2) "regime-change in Iran, financed by *their* oil; 3) and then regime-change in Syria and Lebanon (placed third because they have no oil and because the Israelis keep trying regime change in Lebanon but for some reason it just doesn't seem to work very well).

The mere fact that the grand strategy ground to an expensive halt in stage one is, for them, no reason not to try to continue onto stage two.

Otto, if by "quite possible," you mean "probability greater than zero," then I'll grant the point. If, otoh, you are using conventional english, where "quite possible" implies "something we should give thought to and have a contingency plan for," then Remedial Math is down the hall in room 104B.

So Iran is a just a tiny threat, but that liar McCain is completely distorting Obama's record by acusing Obama of telling the truth that Iran is a tiny threat?

nolaboyd, I hope you are right. But if Obama's team hasn't given some thought to how to respond to a US attack on Iran over the various periods between now and the election, that will not reflect well on them.

John Mueller wrote an excellent book that I think Senator McCain should read. It is called Overblown and it came out in 2006.

McCain claims: "[Ahmadinejad] has repeatedly made clear his government's commitment to Israel's destruction."

As far as I know, Ahmadinejad hasn't done this even once. I just checked the Wikipedia page devoted to Ahmadinejad's statements about Israel, and none of the statements cited there commit the Iranian government to anything.

Bottom line: The charitable interpretation of McCain's statement is that it is another example of McCain's ignorance of the world he will have to deal with if he becomes president. The alternative is that McCain is lying.

In the short-term, I'm personally more worried about unsecured nukes in Russia and former Soviet republics than I am having nukes coming out of Iran. Poor people who don't like the U.S. might have no issue with selling a loose nuke or two for big cash.

Of course, handling that and other problems requires diplomacy, a skill that I don't see in John McCain. He says that talking to your enemies without getting what you demand up front (i.e. "pre-conditions") is useless. I take him at his word. With McCain at the helm, it would indeed be useless, just as it is useless under the current President Asshat. Under somebody more skilled and with better judgment, it could be quite useful.

Note to John: You can get away to saying "F*** YOU!" in the Senate when you're not getting your way, but that doesn't work in the world at large.

McCain claims: "[Ahmadinejad] has repeatedly made clear his government's commitment to Israel's destruction."

Ah, that would be the "wipe Israel off the map" quote ... which didn't happen and doesn't exist in Farsi.

Ahmadinejad quoted a well-known Khomeni speech in which he declared that Israel was ultimately unsustainable, "colonial" rhetoric that has been a staple of Israel's enemies since, well, 1947. In the US, where true patriots are required to be stupid, we were required to believe that "pass to the pages of history" = "BLOW THEM UP WITH FUCKING BLOW UP BOMBS, AAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!" The actual phrase could be used to refer to the USSR, the disappearance of which was not a holocaust.

A young lefty Jewish student of my acquaintance was so taken by this bullshit that she thought Ahmadinejad has said that he was going to track down and kill every Jew on earth.

Amazing. The power of stupid is simply amazing.
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I am so jealous. Really and truly envious of the degree of certainty here. Matt and the commenters just KNOW that Iran doesn't want the bomb; if it wants the bomb, it is many years away from getting it; if they get it, they would never use it or give it to others who might; all those belligerent statements are mistranslations from the Farsi; and, in the end, deterrence is foolproof. That Jordanian cleric who two days ago said that Jihadis should aim to get portable nuclear devices and explode them inside Israel? Hyperbole. The fact that the US and Russia actually came quite close to nuclear war several times? Irrelevant. I think McCain is a kook, and that Bush and quite a few of his henchmen should have been impeached several times over. But the smug and absolute certainty here about Iran by people who don't have a clue about what's really going on at the senior levels in that government, when there are potentially millions of lives (including Iranian lives) at stake, really is quite remarkable. And enviable.

Wow, Winston, that's a real persuasive argument. Since--as you correctly point out--no one knows for sure what's going on over there, it logically follows that the U.S. should...um...do what, exactly?

From the wikipedia page in question:

"Our dear Imam (referring to Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world."

This translation was provided by the Iranian government.

The alternative translation seems to be that "wiped off the map" should have been interpreted as the much more cuddly "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem must [vanish from] the page of time". I'm not sure what "eliminate this disgraceful stain" is translated as.

I guess I'm just stupid, because that still looks like a threat to the Israelis to me. Maybe if I take off my patented Stupid American Patriot glasses, it'll look like something other than a distinction without a difference.

I am so jealous. Really and truly envious of the degree of certainty here. Matt and the commenters just KNOW that Iran doesn't want the bomb; if it wants the bomb, it is many years away from getting it; if they get it, they would never use it or give it to others who might; all those belligerent statements are mistranslations from the Farsi; and, in the end, deterrence is foolproof.

Actually, Winston, I am quite terrified of the scenarios you seem to imply. Unfortunately, I sprained my ankle today and am a bit gimpy. Do you think you could be a sweetheart and march down to the local army recruiting station for me? I've been told they could use a few good men to join the War against Islam. I promise as soon as my ankle heals up, I'll be down to join you. Come now, surely, no sacrifice is too great when one considers the existential threat we face.

Remember the hawks' original 1996 program ("A New Strategy for Protecting the Realm") was 1) "regime-change" in Iraq, financed by their oil; 2) "regime-change in Iran, financed by *their* oil; 3) and then regime-change in Syria and Lebanon (placed third because they have no oil and because the Israelis keep trying regime change in Lebanon but for some reason it just doesn't seem to work very well).

The mere fact that the grand strategy ground to an expensive halt in stage one is, for them, no reason not to try to continue onto stage two.

I think the fact that Bush went to Saudi and gave them a nuclear program is an indication that they realize that their master plan has ground to a halt. If you were going to imminently topple the Iranian regime, you wouldn't be giving their nearest rivals in the Gulf region a nuclear program. Instead, I think this signals that the USG is prepared to accept a nuclear armed Iran as fate accomplee and giving the Saudis an equivelent program is laying the groundwork for a stratgy of containment.

But the smug and absolute certainty here about Iran by people who don't have a clue about what's really going on at the senior levels in that government, when there are potentially millions of lives (including Iranian lives) at stake, really is quite remarkable. And enviable.

please, tell us all exactly what's happening "at the senior levels in that government". i'd hate for our lighthearted dismissal of McCain's demagoguery to come back to bite us as a smoking gun in the shape of a mushroom cloud.

As far as I know, Ahmadinejad hasn't done this even once. I just checked the Wikipedia page devoted to Ahmadinejad's statements about Israel, and none of the statements cited there commit the Iranian government to anything.

Not only that, but even if Ahmadinejad had said Iran was committed to Israel's destruction, there's still the little problem that Iran isn't remotely capable of actually, you know, doing that. I may repeatedly announce my intention of having sex with Natalie Portman, for example, but it's rather unlikely I'll actually succeed. Goals have to be remotely achievable for them to be factored into account.

"This translation was provided by the Iranian government."

Of course, even though Ahmadinejad was merely quoting the Ayatollah Khoemeini's statements about Israel being "wiped off the map" or "vanish[ing]from the page of time," we are obligated to forget that the U.S. sold arms to the Khoemeini regime through Israel.

Excellent. And Commander Hubert has a good piece apeculating on what Tom Friedman is smoking and the Iranian bogey.

I would not dismiss Iran as having "barely functioning military" etc. If I recall, Hezbollah functioned quite well, and their weapons and training doctrine came from Iran.

Iran has pretty good strategic position. 40% of world oil export passes through a strait overlooked by Iranian mountains. Caspian Sea secures a supply line from Russia, so no weapon embargo unless Putin or Medvedev join us. Memo: simultaneous pissing off Russia and Iran is not such a great idea.

Recently, Iran signed a pipeline deal with India and Pakistan. In few years Pakistan will have a much larger income from the pipeline payments than from our aid. Russia and China do not want to "isolate" Iran. So the McCain-ish stand is that we should refuse talking with Iran and attempt to isolate it, except that this splendid isolation includes Pakistan, India, Russia and China. Memo: we are not the only economic superpower. E.g. Russian can help servicing the oil and gas fields, and deep sea expertise, something Russians do not have, is irrelevant for Iran.

In fact, Iran leaders feel sufficiently secure that they bait USA to score internal political points. Hopefully, this trick is getting worn, both here and there.

James and Cleek, I have no idea what is happening at senior levels in Iran, or a brilliant list of suggestions about what we should do about it. I would try very hard to engage Iran diplomatically to see of a nuclear arms race can be forstalled, and I would work with other countries to put pressure on Iran to prevent its development of such weaponry and to provide much greater transparency in its nuclear programs. I would try very hard to prevent other countries in the region from going nuclear, which many of them will do, if only to deter Iran themselves. Perhaps I would also do whatever I could to make clear our intent to deter Iran if it proceeds in the wrong direction. Dr. Jim's silly snark aside, this isn't a trivial issue. My initial comment spoke to what I saw as a glib dismissal of it - the certainty that there's really nothing to worry about. I'm not sure about that at all. I wish, like many of you, I were.

Somehow I'll take the CIA's word that Iran isn't actively pursuing nukes over a bunch of wingnuts who have their panties in a bunch on the internet.

"Of course, even though Ahmadinejad was merely quoting the Ayatollah Khoemeini's statements about Israel being "wiped off the map" or "vanish[ing]from the page of time," we are obligated to forget that the U.S. sold arms to the Khoemeini regime through Israel.

Posted by k | May 20, 2008 7:00 PM"

Also, it's worth pointing out that Khomeini ended Iran's nuclear weapons program (which had started under the Shah) as being un-Islamic. One of the sources of Khomeini's anti-Americanism was Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

"I would not dismiss Iran as having "barely functioning military" etc. If I recall, Hezbollah functioned quite well, and their weapons and training doctrine came from Iran."

Hezbollah functions as an insurgency. They win by not losing and continuing to be able to kill a small number of people. However, if Hezbollah ever tried to invade Israel and overthrow the government, we would have heard the last from Hezbollah. Hezbollah, also, is a Lebanese Shi'ite terrorist group who depends on that community for support, cover, etc. It depends on Iran for money and old rockets with poor aim, but it is not Iranian.

Iran lacks a blue water navy. Meanwhile, Israel has nuclear-capable submarines in the Persian Gulf. Iran's missiles are barely capable of reaching Saudi Arabia without being equipped with a nuke. Nukes tend to be heavy, thus often reducing a missiles effective range. Iran's Revolutionary Guard is based on drafting the youth for recruitment. That same youth tends to be anti-mullah and pro-US, so you can bet that morale and combat readiness probably isn't too high. Israel could rather easily win a conventional war these days against Iran. Iran doesn't have a real backer like it did in the Soviet Union against Iraq. It's population is lower than it would have otherwise been without the Iran-Iraq War. It's economy is small and its infrastructure is poor (which is why that earthquake a couple of years ago there that wasn't that big killed so many people).

Otto: "But if Obama's team hasn't given some thought to how to respond to a US attack on Iran over the various periods between now and the election, that will not reflect well on them."

Otto gets that right. NOT ONE SINGLE Democrat has said ONE WORD about how the Democrats will deal with an Iran war started before the election.

Even though Josh Bolton said it in 2006, "The Dems will lose over Iran."

The Iran war is the "threat that must not be named".

And especially by Matt, who once again manages to make a big post on Iran - and say absolutely nothing about it, except that the scenario of Iran giving nukes to terrorists and terrorists nuking the US is unlikely. Duh!

Matt can't talk about Iran in any substantive way, because he's an intellectual coward.


Comments closed June 03, 2008.

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