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Equality in California

15 May 2008 01:57 pm

California Supreme Court overturns gay marriage ban. This will presumably create political headaches for liberals -- John McCain will be able to argue with some plausibility that judges appointed by Barack Obama are likely to make similar rulings (not that there's anything wrong with that, but the voters may feel otherwise) -- but it's a victory for justice.

The smart set thing to do at this point is, I assume, to argue that this is a good outcome but the process is bad. Realistically, though, the courts that rule in this direction are doing their jobs. I think there's good reason to think that America's system of very strong judicial review is a mistake and there should be some kind of override process (as in Canada) but judges are supposed to rule under the system we have.

UPDATE: Of course state court rulings can be overridden with amendments to the state constitution which, in California and most other places, isn't all that difficult. The problem arises at the federal level where it's preposterously difficult to pass a constitutional amendment.

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Comments (49)

There is an override process. It's called amending the constitution. Californians will decide if they want to override this decision in November.

Well, in CA anyway, there is an override process, and it's called the initiative/referendum. There's already one heading for the ballot this fall to overturn this decision, but hopefully it'll go down in flames.

And let's not forget, the CA legislature passed a bill extending marriage to same-sex couples, and Republican Ahnold vetoed it, saying that the courts needed to rule on the issue.

It's worth noting that this is quite different from other rulings. Here, the question was not "can you ban same sex marriages?" but "now that you've legalized same sex relationships, can you make them second class civil unions instead of marriage?" The answer, quite rightly, is no.

No Matt, the process is not "bad", this is exactly how a Constitutional Republic is supposed to work. It's what they taught you in civics class and has nothing to do with "activist judges" or whatever the wingnut talking points are. As the other commenters have noted, if Calafornians don't like it then they will amend their Constitution in November.

There is an override process. It's called amending the constitution. Californians will decide if they want to override this decision in November.
Posted by Josh E. | May 15, 2008 2:07 PM

I guess I should have known someone would beat me to an answer this obvious.

It's important to note that the legislater had already passed a bill legalizing same sex marriage. Which is what conservatives claim they want when bitching about court decisions. But the Governator vetoed it.

I never thought equality would be a headache for a liberal. I guess I was wrong.

Obama has more headaches than judicial appointments.

He is on record calling for a repeal of DOMA--not just the federal bennies, but the whole enchilada. Repealing DOMA would require all states to recognize California gay marriages. He made a big speech to that effect fairly recently.

Obama's lip service to opposing gay marriage won't do him any good. I suppose he could blame his staff--say that they didn't explain it to him properly.

California's Supreme Court judges also may be recalled by the voters.


I thought I heard on NPR that 6 of the 7 judges were appointed by Republican governors. If so, that would seem to negate a possible McCain play.

I suppose it's too much to ask that we recognize for just one effin' day that a fundamental human right has been affirmed and advanced without worrying about how this creates "political headaches for liberals." Oh well.

Repealing DOMA would require all states to recognize California gay marriages.

Not to get into a huge argument, but that's far from clear. DOMA purports to relieve states of their obligations under the Full Faith and Credit Clause, but it's unclear that the clause actually requires recognition of marriage anyway. And if it does, it's far from clear that Congress can override that command stautorily.

What repealing DOMA would clearly do, however, is allow the federal government to treat same-sex marriages the same as different-sex marriages.

It would be very convenient if that "one effin day" was in December of an odd numbered year.

This is just an aside, but DOMA was not necessary for the purpose of state's not recognizing gay marriages from other states, thanks to the public policy exception to the Full Faith and Credit Clause, which has been applied to marital cases before. Therefore, repealing DOMA would not in fact lead to states being required to reoognize gay marriages from other states.

How hard/easy is it to pass an amendment to the state constitution in California? Does it only require a simply majority?

Glenn,

I also don't want to get into a huge argument about constitutional law, but this isn't actually that unclear of a situation: there is almost no support for the position that DOMA was necessary for that purpose. Rather, that was just a pretext for the other substantive and symbolic effects of the law.

I thought I heard on NPR that 6 of the 7 judges were appointed by Republican governors. If so, that would seem to negate a possible McCain play.

Nonsense. It's California; everybody's supposed to assume, regardless of whatever the facts may be, that anything from there is crazy and Communist and uberliberal. Same goes for my state, Massachusetts. Which, incidentally, had a Supreme Court full of Republican-appointed justices decree that gay marriage is legal a few years ago. You don't remember Bush and the rest of the Republicans having any qualms about campaigning against liberal Massachusetts's crazy social mores, do you?

I'm very suspicious of this idea that it ought to be easier to amend the federal constitution. I have lived in a few western states where reactionary and just plain stupid amendments to the state constitution were routine. Perhaps this doesn't happen everywhere. But, if the federal constitution were easily amended, I am afraid we would have at least a couple of flag-burning amendments by now and maybe one requiring the wearing of flag lapel pins.

See, all that quibbling you're doing? It will go over real big with the public--and now we're talking more than just blue collar voters.

I understand that there are many fine points about whether or not DOMA does indeed allow the states not to recognize gay marriage. However, certainly, that was the point of DOMA, and Obama has called for repealing precisely that aspect (not just the federal recognition part, which Clinton supports repealing).

Besides, if Obama doesn't think DOMA does what it purports to do, why would he support repealing the whole thing?

No, this is another one of his empty promises that he never thought would bite him.

A little earlier than he wanted it, what with South Dakota and Montana still waiting to vote.

Jeeze, what a bunch of sore winners. The good guys won today, an injustice has been set right. The most "convenient" time is the earliest time possible. The next generation of voters understands this, and will look back at the laws against homosexual marriage as ridiculous as those barring interracial marriage.

LoL, instituting an override is the dumbest idea ever. All it'll take is one court case going the 'wrong way' (think of the OJ simposon verdict) and we'll lose every single constitutional right we have. No more civil rights. No more protection against search and seizure. No more double jeopardy protection. No more jury trials. All of it gone because the public got pissed off because they think someone got away with something.

It's not that easy to amend the Massachusetts Constitution, as anti-marriage proponents found to their chagrin last year. The Mass. lege shot down a similar ballot initiative here. Score one for the good guys. Let's hope CA can do the same.

preposterously difficult to pass a constitutional amendment.

I'd call that a feature not a bug.

Besides, if Obama doesn't think DOMA does what it purports to do, why would he support repealing the whole thing?

What a ludicrously stupid question.

DOMA forbids the federal government from recognizing same-sex partners, among other discriminatory acts.

The "defense" part was a sham created to sneak legalized discrimination into the law.

Cal,

The true purpose of DOMA was: (1) to tell gay people they were taboo and thus by wanting to be married they were actually attacking marriage; and (2) to ban any spousal rights for gay people from federal law.

But you are right that the public was told by DOMA's supporters that DOMA was necessary to prevent states from having to recognize gay marriages in other states. Still, I for one am not willing to go along with that lie.

I think there's good reason to think that America's system of very strong judicial review is a mistake and there should be some kind of override process (as in Canada)

No - you guys would just abuse it. Here in Canada, it has basically fallen into disuse. The federal government has *never* used it, and it has been used twice by a province.

I have a hard time thinking it wouldn't be used every other day down your way...

Before any idiot comes up with the whole "activist judges" meme: protecting minorities and their rights from mob rule is part of the whole point of having courts rule on constitutional issues, otherwise you could see minorities' right to vote, for example, end overnight if enough white people felt like it.

Cal translated: Oh noes, Obama has a good idea! He's not even backing gay marriage!

So we're supposed to be quaking in our boots that Obama is backing something that is not even gay marriage nationwide? WTF?

I don't know, Matt. What do you think would have happened if there was an easier mechanism for overriding decisions in 1967 when Loving v Virginia was handed down striking down laws banning interracial marriage? What about after the riots in 1968?

The current Supreme Court sucks on ice, but I'd be pretty cautious about a legislative override. Kinda makes Constitutional rights, not so much "rights" doesn't it?

I suppose it's too much to ask that we recognize for just one effin' day that a fundamental human right has been affirmed and advanced without worrying about how this creates "political headaches for liberals."

Right.

The good guys won today, an injustice has been set right. The most "convenient" time is the earliest time possible.

... and right.

The only importnat thing about this decision is it's a trememndous advnace for freedom and equality. I wonder what Matt would have written the day after LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act?

A little earlier than he wanted it, what with South Dakota and Montana still waiting to vote.

That's right, Cal, wave that flag high. You're prejudiced, and if you're lucky, Democrats in SD and Montana will be bigots too! Go Hillary!

It would be very convenient if that "one effin day" was in December of an odd numbered year.

The Massachusetts SJC ruling was in November '03.

I'm sympathetic to Lemuel's comments, but I'd put it this way-

For some people, the best way to celebrate a victory is to start working to make the victory permanent. This battle isn't going to stop - there will almost certainly be a ballot initiative in November that will have to be fought tooth and nail - and it can be worthwhile to discuss the conflicts ahead to help us think about how to win.

But there's also the troubling concern troll quality to some responses, which sells justice down the river for a narrower benefit that hasn't been proven to exist, and I'm with you in condemning that.

The only important thing about this decision is it's a tremendous advance for freedom and equality. I wonder what Matt would have written the day after LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act?

Yeah - instead of the handwringing, how 'bout a little celebration?

I was at the Ontario Court of Appeal the morning gay marriage was legalized in Canada - I met the grooms to be just minutes before the judgment (and ultimately, just minutes before they were to get married). Even though I won my biggest case in my life that same morning, I still get goose bumps thinking about what a joyous day it was for equality and that I was there for a small part of it...

I'm kind of surprised at your reaction to this Matt, and in fact I don't see this as much of a political liability at all. If McCain wants to hang his presidential aspirations on the gay marriage issue I say good luck. A majority is smart enough to recognize the distraction this was in 2004, and now people have enough to worry about in the form of a shitty economy, weak dollar, high gas prices, and endless war.

We also have the advantage on the gay marriage issue in that this case represents the correct result, and eventually we will see gay marriage legalized nationwide as public opinion continues to shift in favor of equal rights. So I don't think there is any point in shying away from our beliefs on this issue in order to pander to right-wing nutjobs, any more than we should act like hawks to look tough on national security issues.

Now we will see if homophobia is as effective a GOTV technique for Republicans as it was in 2004. And we'll also see whether Obama and Clinton and other leading Democrats wimp out the way Kerry and Edwards did in 2004.

"The Massachusetts SJC ruling was in November '03."

Though just as importantly, the proposed constitutional amendment banning gay marriage was defeated in the legislature in June of 2007.

Now we will see if homophobia is as effective a GOTV technique for Republicans as it was in 2004.

We already know the answer to this, because in the 2006 elections, several states had DOMA amendments on their ballots AND New Jersey had a supreme court case legalizing civil unions a week before election day. No, NJ wasn't the same as California, but it also wasn't 6 months before the election and people were freaking out, too.

What happened? The DOMAs all passed, some by huge margins. Voters turned out in good numbers for a mid-term elections. And Democrats didn't lose a single seat, unseating incumbents left and right, INCLUDING in states that had DOMA amendments.

I recall very early on that night, seeing Freepers post about how Virginia's DOMA passed easily and that therefore George Allen was safe.

We all remember the scars of 2004. However, does anyone think that this is going to change how people feel about gas prices, the war, the economy--or that they're going to forget they all came out to vote Republican to stop gay marriage in 2004 and, well, here we are 4 years later with nothing changed, and with McCain against a FMA?

Don't lose sleep over it.

I don't know... The constitutional amend banning gay marriage came damn close to failing in So. Dak. They're much more reasonable people than the cosmopolitan Rust Belters of the east.

A quick correction: AZ's DOMA failed.

@Persia I don't know... The constitutional amend banning gay marriage came damn close to failing in So. Dak. They're much more reasonable people than the cosmopolitan Rust Belters of the east.

Matthew-- I was more commenting on Cal's "hahaha this is bad news for Obama" than the states, but it's good to know South D isn't so bad. (You'd think Democrats would be less likely to oppose gay marriage, too, eh?)

I think people are putting too much stock in DOMA. It's a law. If this case gets carried up (which it probably won't because the USSC isn't too fond of "political" things), DOMA won't have any standing. It's not constitution.

John DE said:
the question was not "can you ban same sex marriages?" but "now that you've legalized same sex relationships, can you make them second class civil unions instead of marriage?" The answer, quite rightly, is no.

I wonder if people have forgotten that same-sex relations (if not relationships) are protected by federal case law and not CA state law.

It sure will be interesting to watch how this all plays out, but I think we aren't far yet. And that makes me very happy to be a human being.

I think I speak for Californians everywhere when I say:

"We don't give a damn, we're a winner anyway."

Gotta give Schwarzenegger some props for actually saying he'll fight against any attempt to reinstate the ban by referendum.

It was noted above that California's Supreme Court justices can be recalled by the voters. What was not noted is that the last time this happened (within the last decade, mind, not ancient history), it was a liberal Democrat who was recalled.

It may also be worth noting that these "unelected judges" are, in fact, elected. They are, it is true, initially appointed. But after that, they serve a set term, and then have to stand for re-election. All of the judges currently on the court have been re-elected in exactly that manner -- the smallest margin (for one of the judges who dissented from this ruling, at it happens) got 67+% of the vote. The Chief Justice (who wrote the ruling, by the way) got over 80%.

Facts. So inconvenient!

Matt is like everybody else. He expects any "override" to be used to support positions HE likes.

As Number 6 once said, "Every man votes for a dictator."

The irony. I bet some of the social cons are wishing that Janice Rogers Browns never left the California Supreme Court anymore ;)

Re: DOMA purports to relieve states of their obligations under the Full Faith and Credit Clause, but it's unclear that the clause actually requires recognition of marriage anyway.

It doesn't. There are Court decisions which permit states not to recognize other states' marriages.

Re: The DOMAs all passed, some by huge margins.

Um, Arizona?

JonF, keep reading down the comments... two minutes later.


Comments closed May 29, 2008.

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