He's a Muslim -- And His Minister's Nuts Too!

Lisa Shiffren at NRO walks us another step forward in trying to mainstream the notion that Barack Obama had a secret Muslim upbringing -- "Make of it what you will. Certainly that he may have been educated or raised Muslim is no disqualifier, but if he is lying about his upbringing for political acceptance, it speaks to character. We don't know if he is, but we know Daniel Pipes is no crank."

Pipes is, of course, a crank as we saw in yesterday's post where he was busy complaining that the real threat is that sneaky Muslims will abandon terrorism and start using the democratic process to get their way. What makes this kind of thing so odious is that once you manage to present the question, there's no way to debunk it. Is John McCain a manchurian candidate controlled by North Vietnamese Communists? He denies it, but these cranks say he is and if he's lying it speaks to his character. And how's McCain supposed to categorically disprove the charges? After all, none of us really know what happened in those jungle prison camps. . . .

Comments

It's a typo. She meant that we know that Daniel Pipes is on crank.

Posted by El Cid | May 6, 2008 11:48 AM

Even seeing where the quote was going I got a big laugh out of seeing the support for the argument turn on the fact that Daniel Pipes is not a crank. It reminded me of an old Gilbert Gottfried joke (I don't know if it quite qualifies as a joke, so much as a bizarre utternace).

"So I'm have lunch with Charles Manson and he says to me, 'Is it hot in here, or am I crazy?'"

It is funny to think that there are people out there who not only think that Pipes is not a crank, but are so convinced of it to use it as a metaphor for solidity.

Posted by Lon | May 6, 2008 11:49 AM

Well, it looks like Daniel Pipes and Lisa Schiffren may have become active members of Mickey Kaus's goat-blowing club. No denials yet...

Posted by Glenn | May 6, 2008 11:50 AM

Daniel Pipes is certainly a crank, or at least whoever writes under his byline is. His views on Muslims resemble those of late medieval Jesuits on Jews: informed and sophisticated about the nature of the evil confronting them.

As for Schiffren, she is a closet Hillary enthusiast. Sisterhood is powerful.

Posted by gene | May 6, 2008 11:52 AM

I think this raises a very interesting question as to whether Lisa Shiffren goes down on donkeys as part of an underground animal porno ring. Of course she denies it, but isn't that really the issue? If Shiffren is going to go out and have sex with animals she should just be up front with that. It's all about character.

Think of the poor donkeys!

Posted by Helter | May 6, 2008 11:56 AM

You missed one -- she also said he was (or was raised by) Jewish Commies. He is a walking Jerusalem, that Barack.

Posted by Chris | May 6, 2008 12:00 PM

Rather interesting that Mr. Yglesias doesn't post to the accusations about Senator McCain on counterpunch written by his pal Alexander Cockburn.

Posted by SLC | May 6, 2008 12:01 PM

Well, his pastor likes Louis Farrakhan, and Louis Farrakhan is the leader of the Nation of...wait for it...ISLAM!!!

Clearly, they're all double-secret Muslims.

(Also, the Weathermen blew up a statue. Iraqi's...tore down a statue! It all fits!)

Posted by Royko | May 6, 2008 12:04 PM

McCain is not under the control of North Vietnamese communists, as far as I know.

Posted by otto | May 6, 2008 12:07 PM

As far as I can tell Lisa Schiffren's claim to fame is she was a speech writer for Dan Quayle. EOD.

Posted by Bill | May 6, 2008 12:08 PM

You missed one -- she also said he was (or was raised by) Jewish Commies.

We all know, of course, of the close ideological sympathies between atheist Jewish communists and radical Islamofascists.

Posted by Stefan | May 6, 2008 12:10 PM

I think this raises a very interesting question as to whether Lisa Shiffren goes down on donkeys

I heard it wasn't that she goes down on donkeys. It's that she eagerly sucks giant donkey cock.

Posted by Bill | May 6, 2008 12:14 PM

Is John McCain a manchurian candidate controlled by North Vietnamese Communists? He denies it, but these cranks say he is and if he's lying it speaks to his character.

Bad analogy. If John McCain is a manchurian candidate (and I think he probably is), then he is unaware of it. When they brainwash you, they also make you forget the brainwashing. Didn't you see the movie (the original, not the remake)?

Posted by Jim W | May 6, 2008 12:20 PM

Remember when Obama confessed his elitest love for Serrano ham? Kind of threw the commenters at Malkin's place into confusion.

Posted by calipygian | May 6, 2008 12:22 PM

Yeah, it's not like nothing bad happened in Spain when people started accusing Christans for secretly believing in another religion.

/end snark

It is weird that once conservatives start coming round to the idea that not all Jews are evil, they still use framing devices that have their history in anti-Semitism.

Posted by Reality Man | May 6, 2008 12:33 PM

Small point. The "Hanoi Hilton," where McCain was kept prisoner, was, as the name suggests, in Hanoi, not out in the jungle. Oh, you youngsters who didn't grow up with the Vietnam war every day on TV. Like many Boomers, I can still recall most of the place names, the players, and silly details about prison camps...

Posted by Traven | May 6, 2008 12:37 PM

That woman has no soul and Satan has nothing on her. I was disgusted reading her questioning the guy's Christianity earlier, because (hello!) that is such a faith affirming thing to do. She's a sick twisted individual and there is no description to adequately convey the incoherent anger I feel when she questions another man's religion as a religious person. Suffice to say, she's filth and that's taking away aesthetically from filth.

Posted by Rhoda | May 6, 2008 12:41 PM

John McCain is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

Posted by croatoan | May 6, 2008 1:04 PM

How are people allowed to get away with this kind of overt discrimination? As if being Muslim is some kind of deficiency. One of the, probably 5 smartest individuals I've ever met was Muslim. I'd vote for him any day.

Posted by 55 | May 6, 2008 1:10 PM

McCain obviously isn't a "Manchurian candidate", but it is quite clearly the case that the Vietnamese Communist Party wants him to be President. You can tell because when you ask ranking Vietnamese Communist Party members who they want to be President, they, uh, say they want John McCain.

I actually think this issue deserves some play. I mean, okay, old foes reconciled and all, but...why exactly are they reconciled? Because Vietnam is now capitalist? Is that what McCain thought he was fighting for in 1967 -- a KFC franchise on Hoan Kiem lake? It's still a one-party state, there's still no independent media, you still have to ask the government for approval to register your religion, you still get sentenced to three years in prison for "propaganda against the state" if you try to advocate a multiparty system or form an alternative party. Why does John McCain think this is all okay, why is he best buds with the Vietnamese Politburo, and why does the former head of the Hanoi Hilton enthusiastically support John McCain for President?

Posted by brooksfoe | May 6, 2008 1:14 PM

Pipes is an odd crank in that he usually only presents banal, factually correct evidence to reach his bizarrely alarmist conclusions. I think I’d respect him more if he believed some false conspiracy theory.

He hasn’t the slightest bit of evidence to prove his assertion. The “reasons” we’re expected to swallow the Muslim line are that only Muslims are given the name Hussein, some old school papers, and crap like Obama said we wasn’t a practicing Muslim, which means he’s “admitting” he was a non practicing Muslim.

There isn’t any reason to believe anything other people might have assumed Obama he was Muslim as a child.

Posted by Christopher Colaninno | May 6, 2008 1:14 PM

only Muslims are given the name Hussein

I wonder what he would have made of Omar Bradley?

Posted by rea | May 6, 2008 1:18 PM

When they brainwash you, they also make you forget the brainwashing

Dumb question: was the 'Manchurian' candidate, the brainwashed POW, Raymond Shaw, or the Bush-brained Sen. Iselin?

Posted by apm | May 6, 2008 1:22 PM

McCain is not a Manchurian candidate, he is a former collaborator for the Vietnamese Communists. To save his own skin, he betrayed his fellow soldiers by giving up secrets and agreeing to do propoganda for the Vietnamese. He was their "go to" guy. In short, McCain was a coward and a turncoat. That's why the Vietnamese communists love him so much to this very day.

Posted by McCain the Collaborator | May 6, 2008 1:26 PM

John McCain is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

Is this some kind of sick joke? I don't think this is funny.

Posted by Jim W | May 6, 2008 1:33 PM

Jim W, see The Manchurian Candidate sometime.

Posted by Persia | May 6, 2008 1:44 PM

pipes current crank-ness is his believing that a religious group who represents a tiny slice of the total population of the country is so powerful that the rest of we mere citizens will be powerless to oppose them as they oppress us. when does this unreasoning fear come from? i don't get it.

as a sidebar, i recently read that over the last eight years half the increase in american's population is the result of hispanic immigration.
since this group is over-whelmingly christian, how can the muslims possible keep up? just curious.

Posted by dj spellchecka | May 6, 2008 1:44 PM

John McCain is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

Is this some kind of sick joke? I don't think this is funny.

Jim W, see The Manchurian Candidate sometime.

"All right, then. You know... you know we are on the brink of another cataclysm, probably nuclear, on our own soil. ... And it's not from random terrorists, but from covert alliances of disaffected nations who've all been made bold by this kind of [Obama] one-worlder who believes that human beings are essentially good and that our powers are somehow, I don't know, shameful or evil and never to be used. Make no mistake. The American people are terrified. They know something's coming. They can feel it. And we can either shovel them the same old shit and call it sugar or we can arm them. We can arm them with a[n older, experienced] President. We can give them heat, energy! Give them a war hero with heart, forged by enemy fire in the [jungle] in the dark when American lives hung on the balance!"

Posted by LarryM | May 6, 2008 1:57 PM

Reality Man
If you're going to talk snark, you need to learn how to read sarcasm.

Posted by gene | May 6, 2008 2:07 PM

Is John McCain a manchurian candidate controlled by North Vietnamese Communists?

For all practical purposes, Vietnam is no longer controlled by North Vietnamese communists.

Posted by Kolohe | May 6, 2008 2:11 PM

That's form the inferior, new one, of course. How about:

"The speech is short. But it's the most rousing speech I've ever read. It's been worked on, here and in Russia, on and off, for over eight years. I shall force someone to take the body away from him and Johnny will really hit those microphones and those cameras with blood all over him, fighting off anyone who tries to help him, defending America even if it means his own death, rallying a nation of television viewers to hysteria, to sweep us up into the White House with powers that will make martial law seem like anarchy!"

Not quite on point I guess. But what a great movie.

Posted by LarryM | May 6, 2008 2:12 PM

"As if being Muslim is some kind of deficiency."

It isn't -- so why the resistance to acknowledging that a boy (Obama) who had a Muslim father, a Muslim stepfather, and was brought up partly in a Muslim country, was raised (at least nominally) as a Muslim?

Posted by Harry | May 6, 2008 2:29 PM

Because
-He never knew his father (meeting him once after the age of two)
-His mother was not a Muslim, and she had much more of an influence over him than his stepfather (and I've heard conflicting reports about his stepfather's religion)
-He went to first a Catholic school and then a non-denominational school in that Muslim country (which is why I don't think his stepfather was a practicing Muslim, because I can't imagine a Muslim man allowing his stepson to attend a Catholic school).

My problem is with people making shit up to smear him in ways that aren't true. And with Republican "pundits" furthering the idea that we should be afraid of Muslims.

Posted by 55 | May 6, 2008 2:36 PM

"I actually think this issue deserves some play. I mean, okay, old foes reconciled and all, but...why exactly are they reconciled? Because Vietnam is now capitalist? Is that what McCain thought he was fighting for in 1967 -- a KFC franchise on Hoan Kiem lake? It's still a one-party state, there's still no independent media, you still have to ask the government for approval to register your religion, you still get sentenced to three years in prison for "propaganda against the state" if you try to advocate a multiparty system or form an alternative party. Why does John McCain think this is all okay, why is he best buds with the Vietnamese Politburo, and why does the former head of the Hanoi Hilton enthusiastically support John McCain for President?

Posted by brooksfoe | May 6, 2008 1:14 PM"

It may also have to do with one of the saner things McCain has done, which is he worked with Kerry to help re-establish relations with Vietnam.

Also, pushing this meme too far can only backfire for us. Doing anything that seems to question, even if that wasn't the intent, the patriotism of a veteran running for veteran only works if the right does it because, sadly, they can get away with it.

Posted by Reality Man | May 6, 2008 2:46 PM

Lisa Shiffren's the same person who had Obama's parents as likely Communists because they were interracially married: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NmM2NDQ3ZWQ1YWM0Y2QyZTUxMDdkY2M2OTJlNGE5MWE=. So Obama's a crypto-Muslim and a crypto-Communist! We can elect someone who triggers the McCarthyist guilt by association crap of the past and the present. Yes, we can!

"It isn't -- so why the resistance to acknowledging that a boy (Obama) who had a Muslim father, a Muslim stepfather, and was brought up partly in a Muslim country, was raised (at least nominally) as a Muslim?"

Um, the fact that it isn't true? Obama was a boy who had a largely absent atheist formerly Muslim father, a Muslim stepfather (apparently at the religiously liberal end of the Muslim continuum, FWIW), and an agnostic mother who was part of his life for a good deal longer than either father, and who had rather more religious influence on him than either man. His mother and grandparents gave him a mostly secular upbringing. He did grow up with more contact with Islam than the average American, but saying he was ever even a nomimal Muslim is absurd.

Not that there'd be anything wrong with acknowledging his Muslim upbringing, if in fact he had one, but as it is - well, if having a father who once was Muslim makes you Muslim, I'm Greek Orthodox, and if having spent time as a child in an area where there are lots of Muslims makes you Muslim, I'm a Jew. If people want to consider for president only people who are hermetically sealed from any real contact with Islam, they should at least admit that's what they want, and not pretend they're only screening out our actual enemies. Or even just actual Muslims (some of whom aren't our enemies).

Posted by Lynn Gazis-Sax | May 6, 2008 3:37 PM

1. Viet Nam continues to be a generally socialist country today, albeit one with a large role for the free market. It certainly isn't a capitalist country any more than Tito's Yugoslavia (which also had a largely market economy). 'Market socialism' would be the appropriate term.

2. It is certainly a reasonable thing for a Christian to want another Christian as leader of his country, and not someone who subscribes to a religion that explicitly denies the divinity of Christ. I would not necessarily make that case myself but I certainly acknowlegde it's a reasonable case.

3. Being highly critical of the Jewish religion does not equate to believeing that 'all Jews are evil' and this is equally true of Islam.

Posted by Hector | May 6, 2008 3:47 PM

He did grow up with more contact with Islam than the average American, but saying he was ever even a nomimal Muslim is absurd.

Then you should have no trouble demonstrating that. That requires rather more than merely asserting that Obama had a "mostly secular upbringing." From the reports I have seen, citing testimony from family members, friends and neighbors, there is credible evidence that as a child Obama was at least "a nominal Muslim."

Not that there'd be anything wrong with acknowledging his Muslim upbringing, if in fact he had one,

If you really believed that, you wouldn't be so desperate to deny that Obama ever was even "a nominal Muslim."

Posted by Mixner | May 6, 2008 4:01 PM

"From the reports I have seen, citing testimony from family members, friends and neighbors, there is credible evidence that as a child Obama was at least "a nominal Muslim.""

What does this phrase even mean? I never went to a Hindu temple and my mom is not a practicing Hindu and I don't even believe in god, yet I'm a lot more Hindu than Obama is a Muslim. My father is a lapsed Catholic and I was baptized as a baby, which also makes me a whole lot more "a nominal Catholic" than Obama was a nominal Muslim, whatever that is supposed to mean.

A phrase like "a nominal Muslim" can mean anything the speaker wants it to mean. It's a nonsense phrase. It's easy to spot the difference between a practicing Muslim, someone who was raised to be a practicing Muslim but has let that fall by the wayside without taking up a different religion (such as Fareed Zakaria) and a non-Muslim. Such a phrase can mean as little as someone who once ate hummus on a trip to Cairo as a child.

"If you really believed that, you wouldn't be so desperate to deny that Obama ever was even "a nominal Muslim."

Posted by Mixner | May 6, 2008 4:01 PM"

Have you stopped beating your wife? Heads you win, tails we lose. You know we are pointing this out because 1) it doesn't hold up to the facts but also because 2) we are worried about a bigoted anti-Muslim backlash against Obama's candidacy. Unless you are retarded, you know this and thus are just arguing out of bad faith because you're a jerk.

Posted by Reality Man | May 6, 2008 4:20 PM

The reports I have seen, citing testimony from family members, friends and neighbors, there is credible evidence that as a child Obama was at least "a nominal Muslim."

Prove it.

Posted by blah | May 6, 2008 4:24 PM

Then you should have no trouble demonstrating that.

To whom, exactly? To people who assert the contrary with no evidence whatsoever, and no indication of what evidence they would accept?

That requires rather more than merely asserting that Obama had a "mostly secular upbringing." From the reports I have seen, citing testimony from family members, friends and neighbors, there is credible evidence that as a child Obama was at least "a nominal Muslim."

Then cite your reports specifically. I've read his early autobiography, I've read numerous articles about his upbringing in reliable papers, and I've talked personally to someone who attended the same high school as him. None of those sources ever suggested that Obama was ever even a nominal Muslim. The closest to such evidence that I've found is that he spent a few years in a Muslim country with his not at all Muslim mother and a stepfather who sometimes talked to him about Islam.

If you really believed that, you wouldn't be so desperate to deny that Obama ever was even "a nominal Muslim."

What the heck? Look, I don't think there's anything wrong with being raised Muslim, or Southern Baptist, or Unitarian, or Jewish, or growing up in a Communist country, or being gay, but if you were to assert any of those things about, say, George Bush, I'd rebut you, because you'd be inaccurate. Desperation has nothing to do with it; stupidly wrong is stupidly wrong. And it would have nothing to do with my opinion about George Bush (which is low) or about those belief systems (which is various).

Posted by Lynn Gazis-Sax | May 6, 2008 4:35 PM

and I've heard conflicting reports about his stepfather's religion

The impression I got from Dreams From My Father was that the stepfather was kind of loosely syncretistic in his religion - influenced both by Islam and by other local beliefs.

Posted by Lynn Gazis-Sax | May 6, 2008 4:39 PM

The problem is not that Obama is a muslim, it's that he probably knows enough of them that he doesn't think they are monsters. That's a scary thought to some.

Posted by otto | May 6, 2008 4:56 PM

Lynn Gazis,

To whom, exactly?

The people reading these comments. You claimed that "saying [Obama] was ever even a nomimal Muslim is absurd." If it is "absurd" to say that Obama was "ever even a nominal Muslim," there must be clear evidence that Obama was never "even a nominal Muslim." So where is it? Produce this evidence.

Then cite your reports specifically.

The Los Angeles Times report, for example.

Posted by Mixner | May 6, 2008 5:19 PM

A phrase like "a nominal Muslim" can mean anything the speaker wants it to mean. It's a nonsense phrase.

Did you see this, Lynn? Reality Man--who doesn't seem to pay much attention to who said what--thinks your phrase "a nominal Muslim" is nonsense and can mean anything you want it to mean. Perhaps you could explain to him what you mean by this "nonsense phrase."

Posted by Mixner | May 6, 2008 5:26 PM

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Why do liberals think this question poses such difficulty? If you've never beaten your wife, your response would simply be, "I have never beaten my wife".

It's a little strange to use the cliche about beating your wife in the context of the question of whether Obama was raised as a Muslim, but since you have, let's consider it:

"Has Obama stopped being a Muslim"?

The answers to this question could be

He was raised a Muslim, but only nominally, and he converted to Christianity when he was 27 (or whatever age it was).

Or it could be

He was never a Muslim, even nominally. He was raised as a member of X religion.

Or

" " no religion.

Posted by Fred | May 6, 2008 5:33 PM

Are these Obama-Muslim things actually douchbaggery, or just nominal douchebaggery?

Posted by El Cid | May 6, 2008 5:38 PM

Are these Obama-Muslim things actually douchebaggery, or just nominal douchebaggery?

Posted by El Cid | May 6, 2008 5:39 PM

"If you really believed that, you wouldn't be so desperate to deny that Obama ever was even "a nominal Muslim.""

What do you believe that makes you wish so ardently that he is Muslim, scumbag?

Posted by brewmn | May 6, 2008 5:40 PM

And hitting the post button before you're ready is definitive douchebaggery.

Posted by El Cid | May 6, 2008 5:41 PM

Genes and religion

I wrote a comment on Daniel Pipes site,but have reason to believe it will fail to appear,so why not post it here ?

Sometimes I wonder what people like Daniel Pipes are made of. People who can make a living of spreading hate and intolerance. What separates this manure from Alfred Rosenberg Pamphlets in Germany ?

Very little.

Pipes assertion that islam is an inherited religion is nonsense. Maybe some muslim clerics makes claims like that,but if a person don't believe in islam : how can this idiotic rule apply ? If Obama says he is a christian...who can possibly question his religious belief.. Only narrowminded and shameless zealots.

Personally I detest all kind of attempts to mix religion and politics, and see very little difference between fanatics hiding in Tora Bora, killing palestinian children on the West Bank or planning new atrocities from the White House.

Posted by Daga | May 6, 2008 5:44 PM

From the reports I have seen, citing testimony from family members, friends and neighbors, there is credible evidence that as a child Obama was at least "a nominal Muslim."

Since when do 6-yr olds even really "have" a religion except insofar as they've been told what team they are on?

If you actually have to resort to speaking about the "religion" of a 6-yr old with any intellectual seriousness, then you've already jumped the shark.

Posted by libarbarian | May 6, 2008 5:44 PM

Did you see this, Lynn? Reality Man--who doesn't seem to pay much attention to who said what--thinks your phrase "a nominal Muslim"

Not my phrase; it was Harry who first spoke of "resistance" to saying that Obama was raised "(at least nominally) as a Muslim?"

Perhaps you could explain to him what you mean by this "nonsense phrase."

I took Harry to mean that something had been done to make Obama, as a child, considered a Muslim convert, but that he hadn't been raised a very observant Muslim: i.e., that he had at some point stated in the presence of others that there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet, that he hadn't said anything immediately afterwards to indicate that he was fooling when he made said statement, but that he wasn't brought up to be particularly scrupulous about following the five pillars of Islam. Evidence that Obama was "ever even nominally a Muslim" would be evidence that he ever made that affirmation.

I, for example, am not a nominal Muslim; I've been inside a mosque, and read portions of the Quran, but I've never affirmed that I accept Mohammed as prophet. Q.E.D.

If it makes you happier, though, I'll withdraw the "nominal," and simply state that Obama was never raised a Muslim: i.e., he was never obliged, nor chose, as a child, to state that there was no God but Allah and that Mohammed was his prophet. And for this reason would not be regarded by Muslims as apostate now when he attends the United Church of Christ and affirms himself to be Christian.

Then you can take up your quarrel about the meaning of the word "nominal" with Harry.

Posted by Lynn Gazis-Sax | May 6, 2008 5:52 PM

Since when do 6-yr olds even really "have" a religion

Depends what you mean by "really 'have' a religion." How many adult Americans who call themselves Catholic, for example, "really" believe the teachings of the Catholic Church? Religion in America seems more a matter of self-identification than of assenting to religious doctrines or engaging in religious "practises."

Anyway, the issue for now is not whether Obama "really had" the religion of Islam, but the the claim that it is "absurd" to say he was "ever even a nominal Muslim."

Posted by Mixner | May 6, 2008 5:59 PM

Not my phrase; it was Harry who first spoke of "resistance" to saying that Obama was raised "(at least nominally) as a Muslim?"

The assertion I am challenging, "saying [Obama] was ever even a nominal Muslim is absurd" is yours.

I took Harry to mean ...

I don't care what you took Harry to mean. What matters here is what you meant by "a nominal Muslim."

Evidence that Obama was "ever even nominally a Muslim" would be evidence that he ever made that affirmation.

So in order to be even just "a nominal Muslim," as you mean that phrase, a person must make that specific affirmation, under those specific conditions? Islamic prayers, self-identification as a Muslim, attendance at Islamic religious services, etc. don't count as evidence of being even "a nominal Muslim?"

In any case, you seem to have lost sight of the issue. Even if there is no evidence that Obama "had at some point stated in the presence of others that there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet, that he hadn't said anything immediately afterwards to indicate that he was fooling when he made said statement, but that he wasn't brought up to be particularly scrupulous about following the five pillars of Islam" that wouldn't support your assertion that it is "absurd."

If it makes you happier, though, I'll withdraw the "nominal," and simply state that Obama was never raised a Muslim:

But that statement doesn't merely withdraw the "nominal," it's a completely different claim. What, exactly, are you claiming is "absurd?"

Posted by Mixner | May 6, 2008 6:17 PM

The word Muslim means "person who affirms Mohammed as a prophet." That's what it has always meant, just as the word "Catholic" means "person who has been baptized by a Catholic priest." Faiths have defined ways of determining who their members are; you can't just monkey with the definitions for fun, and make everyone who's ever attended or prayed at an X service an adherent of X. Else I'd be a Catholic African Methodist Pentecostal Episcopalian Lutheran Quaker Reform Jewish Conservative Jewish Muslim Buddhist. Whatever the word "nominal" may mean, it can't mean "we will redefine religion X to undo its requirements altogether."

And "absurd" is a perfectly reasonable word to use if someone calls so-and-so a member of religion X without producing evidence that so-and-so meets religion X's requirements.

But fine, Mixner, have it your way: the word "nominal" can mean anything at all. It is impossible for it to be absurd to claim someone's a nominal anything; the fact that you've added the qualifier "nominal" means the most minimal association will make it true. Everyone in the world, certainly including Obama, is a nominal Muslim. Islam is the superglue of religions.

Posted by Lynn Gazis-Sax | May 6, 2008 7:04 PM

The word Muslim means "person who affirms Mohammed as a prophet."

According to Wikipedia, citing the Encyclopedia of Islam and studyquran.org as sources, "Muslim" means "one who submits to God."

And I still don't know what distinction you are making, if any, between a "Muslim" and a "nominal Muslim." You apparently seem to want to obscure your meaning rather than clarify it. I think most people would agree that there is nothing "absurd" in thinking that attendance at Islamic religious services, engaging in Islamic prayers, and being registered in school as a Muslim are evidence that someone is at least "a nominal Muslim."

And "absurd" is a perfectly reasonable word to use if someone calls so-and-so a member of religion X without producing evidence that so-and-so meets religion X's requirements.

No, the reasonable word to use in that case would be "unsubstantiated." "Absurd" is a, well, absurd word to use. You do know the difference, don't you? Absence of evidence here is not evidence of absence, let alone evidence of absurdity.

Posted by Mixner | May 6, 2008 7:33 PM

But fine, Mixner, have it your way: the word "nominal" can mean anything at all.

I didn't say that. Your fellow Obamabot Reality Man said it. Take it up with him.

Posted by Mixner | May 6, 2008 8:12 PM

This argument is getting absurd.

Posted by El Cid | May 6, 2008 10:14 PM

Why do liberals think this question [i.e. have you stopped beating your wife] poses such difficulty? If you've never beaten your wife, your response would simply be, "I have never beaten my wife".

Usually in this context the assumption is that the question is presented as yes-or-no answers only.

Posted by Glaivester | May 7, 2008 12:08 AM

Don't bother arguing with Mixner. This POS lives for parsing words and making up arguments where none exist.

He's a well-known troll here. His forte is arguing for the validity of torture.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | May 7, 2008 2:17 AM

"This argument is getting absurd."

Yes it is but it helps to illustrate the depravity of the right-wing in America.

Sen. Obama, as a youth, apparently did the following. #1.) He attended a public school that had religious studies as part of the curriculum and had classes in both Islam and Catholic Christianity. #2.) He was registered in this school as a Muslim because his step-father whom he lived with was officially a Muslim. #3.) And he attended a Mosque a few times, always with the rest of his family.

From this I would say that Sen. Obama was never a member of the Islamic faith, wholly, nominally or otherwise.

The first 2 points never would have happened in America, even if the parties’ religious faiths stayed the same. Indonesia is different because it allows religious teaching in public school and it seems to care what religion your parents are. Regardless of what Sen. Obama’s religious faith was, he still might have done both of these things. The first point is more pertinent here because he had instruction in both Islam and Catholism, yet no one is suggesting he was ever nominally a Roman Catholic.

The third point brings a smile to my face. Obama’s step-father, by all accounts, WAS a nominal Muslim. He was brought up in the Islamic faith and for whatever reasons, went through the motions, even though he clearly was not committed to a religious faith life. Obama’s sister says that during the time they lived in Indonesia, they attended Mosque only on the big religious holidays. I smile because I can relate to this. I am Roman Catholic and attend Mass every week. But wouldn’t you know, every Easter and Christmas, our normally full church is absolutely mobbed. We have to set up folding chairs and the end of the pews and you practically have to fight for every breath of oxygen in the place. All those C.E.O. Christians come out of the woodwork, the “Christmas and Easter Only” Christians. Obama’s step-father was a Muslim in the same way these people are Christians. But Obama’s attendance here means absolutely nothing.

Just because you go to a particular house of worship and go through the motions of prayer does not make you a member of that particular religion or denomination. No more than going into a garage and making noises like an engine make you an automobile. Sen. Obama made a profession of faith in the United Church of Christ, responding to an alter call and becoming baptized as a Christian. He says in was in the UCC that he had his first religious experience. That would be the end of the story for any sane and honorable person.

Posted by Raindog | May 7, 2008 4:49 PM

I can see you have a point, Richard; I'll avoid feeding the troll in the future.

Posted by Lynn Gazis-Sax | May 7, 2008 8:49 PM