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Iraq-Afghanistan Linkages

05 May 2008 12:42 pm

The idea that we need to withdraw from Iraq in order to, among other things, focus more effort on Afghanistan is, among other things, a good political talking points for the anti-war side of the Iraq debate. My sense it that very fact has convinced a lot of people that it's just a good talking point for the anti-war side of the Iraq debate. In fact, however, it's totally true. Truer, in fact, than a lot of people realize because the resources being squandered in Iraq include not just our own resources, but the political will of our NATO allies in Afghanistan many of whom are making important contributions there. Robert Farley summarizes Samantha Power on Canada:

It's in this context that articles like Samantha Power's recent Time magazine piece are particularly important. Canada has borne a disproportionate share of the fighting in Afghanistan, and has suffered dreadful casualties. Eighty-two Canadians have thus far been killed in Afghanistan, as compared with ninety-five from the much larger UK contingent. The death rate has taken its toll on Canadian public opinion, but one lesson of the Power article is that Iraq continues to poison everything; to the extent that the Afghan operation is conceived of as part of greater US foreign policy, it becomes less popular.

My experience generally has been that most elites in NATO countries appreciate the importance of the mission in Afghanistan, would like to contribute to its success, and are even willing to risk some level of public opprobrium for doing so. But these are democratic countries and people are accountable to their voters, and voters don't like the idea that Canadian (and British, German, etc.) forces are in Afghanistan in order to hold America's coat so that we can continue our occupation in Iraq and build a multi-billion dollar hotel and condo complex inside the Green Zone.

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Comments (83)


Do us all a favor and explain the importance of the mission in Afghanistan.

Canadian (and British, German, etc.) forces are in Afghanistan in order to hold America's coat

Huh?

We have more troops in Afghanistan than all the other NATO countries combined.

I second gcochran's suggestion. I mean it isn't like we went into Afghanistan just for the fuck of it and let Osama and his crew off the hook or anything. If we aren't there to get Osama (and if we were serious about getting him, he would have been got 6+ years ago), what are we there for?

I third the suggestion.

Defense Secretary Gates has made precisely this point - that European support for the war in Afghanistan suffers by association with Iraq. In Feb., Gates appealed directly to the European public not to lump the war in Afghanistan together with the war in Iraq as an American misadventure, but rather to recognize that conditions in Afghanistan directly affect their security. "'I think they combine the two,'" he said, according the AP(2/8). "'Many of them I think have a problem with our involvement in Iraq and project that to Afghanistan and don't understand the very different — for them — very different kind of threat' posed by al-Qaida in Afghanistan, as opposed to the militant group in Iraq that goes by the same name and is thought to be led by foreign terrorists linked to al-Qaida."

There is a remarkable implicit admission here that Europeans are justified in considering Iraq an American debacle but that they should differentiate and recognize Afghanistan as a core NATO mission. More on Gates' attempts to balance confrontation in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan/Pakistan here

Asp,

Gates, foolishly, has forgotten that our allies, after the last 7 years, have exactly zero reason left to trust us.

The old fable to explain chutzpah works pretty well here.

You cannot kill your parents and then throw yourself on the mercy of the court because you're a poor orphan. You can't do that in your own life, and you sure as hell cannot do that in foreign affairs.

I think that the argument that is made re our invasion of Afghanistan is that they did in fact provide training grounds for Al Qaeda. And I think that was proven. What are we doing there now? (and by we, I actually mean Canada). I dunno really. None of our political elite can actually explain the purpose of our mission - is it to keep the Taliban out? I guess so.

And yes the Americans do have more troops in Afghanistan. But they still have too few to do the job (~ 30,000 versus over 150,000 in Iraq). And, like it or not, the Americans are the big cops of the world. Canada is definitely doing its share - we have no more troops to send, and we have been fighting there, in the dangerous area, for 5 years now.

Where I am, the disillusionment is that we (the rest of theworld) was told that the war in Afghanistan was necessary, was vital, was to combat terror. And we all signed up. Then teh US went and said that oh, by the way, we are going to go fight this other vital (made-up) war which clearly (to the rest of the world) had nothing to do with the "war on terror" and everything to do with neo-con hubris. If the US had sent half of those troop levels to Afghanistan, who knows what would have happened, but we probably wouldn't be fighting the Taliban there today. And those of us who do support continuing efforts in Afghanistan feel a bit like we were sold a pig in a poke.

Most of the our Nato allies only sent troops to Afghanistan because they thought the war there was over and that they would be in a peacekeeping role. Except for exceptions like the Brits and the Canadians, who have been willing to send their troops into the shit and take casualties, the rest of the Europeans have been grudging participants in Afghanistan from the start, perhaps because they don't see the point in a never-ending mission in a fourth world backwater with little strategic value. None of this would change if every American serviceman were out of Iraq tomorrow.

The Canadian casualty rate has been about 15 per year. (82 casualties / ~5 years of Canadian involvement)

That is nowhere near what one would call "dreaadful". If that number of casualties is sapping Canadian support for the Afganistan mission, then their support isn't worth all that much.

Fred,
Please don't ignore the Dutch who are up front with the US/UK/Canada.

Also speaking as a Canadian, I can suggest another way in which the mission in Iraq poisons public support for the mission in Afghanistan, namely that when the news each night features updates on the ongoing debates in Parliament over whether and for how long the Canadian mission in Afghanistan should continue, and then news of the most recent Canadian military casualty, and then news of the most recent car bombing in Baghdad, this creates an association in the Canadian viewer/voter, namely that Afghanistan is simply devolving into chaos in the same way that Iraq has been (leaving the question of the success of the surge aside). It's one thing to make an argument to the Canadian public that the mission in Afghanistan is worth seeing through, it's quite another to do so with the background that we are there in part taking casualties in order to fill the role previously held by the U.S. troops who were removed to go to Iraq, it's yet quite another to do so if you believe that Afghanistan as a whole looks like the news footage of Baghdad that we see on the news each night.

Also speaking as a Canadian, I can suggest another way in which the mission in Iraq poisons public support for the mission in Afghanistan, namely that when the news each night features updates on the ongoing debates in Parliament over whether and for how long the Canadian mission in Afghanistan should continue, and then news of the most recent Canadian military casualty, and then news of the most recent car bombing in Baghdad, this creates an association in the Canadian viewer/voter, namely that Afghanistan is simply devolving into chaos in the same way that Iraq has been (leaving the question of the success of the surge aside). It's one thing to make an argument to the Canadian public that the mission in Afghanistan is worth seeing through, it's quite another to do so with the background that we are there in part taking casualties in order to fill the role previously held by the U.S. troops who were removed to go to Iraq, it's yet quite another to do so if you believe that Afghanistan as a whole looks like the news footage of Baghdad that we see on the news each night.

The initial invasion of Afghanistan was brilliant: special forces + local proxies + lethal, targeted air power. Rumsfeld deserves credit for ignoring Shinseki's advice on that one. Then Bush's compassionate conservatism kicked in, and he moved the goal posts of success beyond deposing the Taliban and to building a functioning, democratic country in Afghanistan and our Nato allies bought into this because:

1) It would have been politically incorrect to point out that Afghanistan had been a fractious fourth world backwater full of illiteracy and buggery since pretty much ever.

2) They thought it would only require from them a symbolic commitment of troops.

I would dispute the claim that 82 casualties is "low" and that therefore, our support is weak. First of all, 75 of the casualties occurred since January 2006, so it is really at the rate of about 2.5 a month. There are at any given time 2500 troops in Afghanistan, so there is a .1% monthly casualty rate, or a 1% yearly casualty rate. That rate is about 3x higher than the US is facing in Iraq right now (picture 160 body bags coming home every month for 3 years). And the US has only 5x the casualty rate, with 10x the number of soldiers.

So to say that we are soft seems to me to be American arrogance.

The initial invasion of Afghanistan was brilliant: special forces + local proxies + lethal, targeted air power.

The only way the initial invasion of Afghanistan could be counted as a success and not a total, abject failure is if it resulted in Osama Bin Laden, the murderer of 3,000 Americans, if it resulted in his head on a pike and our combat troops out of there before the 2004 presidential election.

Otherwise, what the hell are we doing there?

"Please don't ignore the Dutch who are up front with the US/UK/Canada."

Sorry, Chris B. I should also give credit to the Australians, who have fought alongside the U.S. in pretty much every major war we've been in over the last century or so, even ones that the cool countries like Canada didn't approve of.

I'm genuinely baffled how an insightful guy like Matt can see through the bullshit theories of "victory" in Iraq (Bombs + Dudes In Humvees + Sectarian Conflict = Super Awesome Democracy Paradise) and not see that the same bullshit formula is what we're being sold with regard to Afghanistan. Yes, that country is fucked up. Yes, the Taliban is made up of a bunch of bad guys. No, a relatively small long term foreign military presence will not make these problems go away. No, we're no interested in committing 200,000 plus troops and billions more dollars to try and turn Afghanistan into...what? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? What really is the best outcome here?

even ones that the cool countries like Canada didn't approve of.

You mean "the disastrous blunders"?

Or maybe if only we'd had the Canadians on our side, we'd have won in Vietnam?

Sheesh.

Fred, I cannot make out if that was a dig or not. But, I should say you are right to give credit to the Australians. There they were in 1940, arm in arm with the rest of the English speaking world fighting Hitler. Oh wait .. MOST of the English speaking world. One "cool" country didn't see the Nazis as anything worth fighting over (Let the Europeans have their war, was the sentiment, I believe). Which is fine - but when your country wants to have its war so badly it will make up evidence and lie about it, there shouldn't be digs against those other countries that do not want their soldiers dying for lies.

Canada goes to real wars - if you recall your (non-American) history, we said no to the Brits when they expected Canadian troops to come help them subdue Turkey in 1920. We saw it as an attempt at imperial expansion and not something worth spilling Canadian blood for. Much like Vietnam and Iraq.

What really is the best outcome here?

I think the best possible outcome would have been similar to what happened in Spain after Francisco Franco finally kicked the bucket - a restoration of the royal family. Could sticking Zahir Shah back on the throne have been any worse than making a restaurateur from Baltimore the Mayor of Kabul?

"...just a good talking point for the anti-war (sic) side of the Iraq debate."

Yep. Iraq is exponentially more important than Afghanistan, which has indeed been "a fractious fourth-world backwater full of illiteracy and buggery since just about ever." Not to mention hideous violence, hostility to outsiders, misogyny, nut-bag religious fanaticism, and lots of other bad things. Anyone who's serious about helping Afghanistan should be advocating for the de-criminalization of drugs, which would do a lot more good than than the 82nd Airborne there.

We went to Afghanistan for one reason, and one reason only--to remove the nation-state platform it had become from Al Qaeda. Mission accomplished. Making Afghanistan EU-ready was never part of the deal. If NATO can stabilize the place, it would be nice, and would give NATO some rationale for existence, but no one should imagine that killing OBL (who is probably dead anyway) will make the slightest difference for our security.

Al Qaeda got lucky and took advantage of our inattention for a one-off spectacular. Currently we are much more at risk from Islamic terrorists living in major European cities than from those in the Hindu Kush. Iraq, on the other hand, represents the key real estate in the region producing most of the oil and most of the terrorism. No contest.

"...just a good talking point for the anti-war (sic) side of the Iraq debate."

Yep. Iraq is exponentially more important than Afghanistan, which has indeed been "a fractious fourth-world backwater full of illiteracy and buggery since just about ever." Not to mention hideous violence, hostility to outsiders, misogyny, nut-bag religious fanaticism, and lots of other bad things.

We went to Afghanistan for one reason, and one reason only--to remove the nation-state platform it had become from Al Qaeda. Mission accomplished. Making Afghanistan EU-ready was never part of the deal. If NATO can stabilize the place, it would be nice, and would give NATO some rationale for existence, but no one should imagine that killing OBL (who is probably dead anyway) will make the slightest difference for our security.

Al Qaeda got lucky and took advantage of our inattention for a one-off spectacular. Currently we are much more at risk from Islamic terrorists living in major European cities than from those in the Hindu Kush. Iraq, on the other hand, represents the key real estate in the region producing most of the oil and most of the terrorism. No contest.

I should also give credit to the Australians, who have fought alongside the U.S. in pretty much every major war we've been in over the last century or so, even ones that the cool countries like Canada didn't approve of.

Right, because Canada sat idly by, getting drunk and dancing to jazz, when America bravely declared war on Nazi Germany in September 1939. Canada didn't enter the war until over two years later, and then only when Hitler declared war on Canada....oh, wait. Reverse the words "America" and "Canada" in those sentences and it'll actually make sense.

"Reverse the words "America" and "Canada" in those sentences and it'll actually make sense."

Only if you ignore a few major points:

  • That Canada, as part of the British Empire, was sort of obligated to go to join the war in 1939.
  • That the U.S. was supplying Britain with vital equipment and supplies and fighting an undeclared naval war against the Germans in the North Atlantic to get those supplies to Britain before we officially entered the war in 1941.
  • That as much as FDR wanted to join the war in 1939, it was politically impossible for him to do so without a pretext at that point.
  • If that number of casualties is sapping Canadian support for the Afganistan mission, then their support isn't worth all that much.

    And thus 'heedless' demonstrate why lots of Canadians now think that it's hardly worth the cost in lives and money to be sneered at by Yanqui jerkoffs.

    The initial invasion of Afghanistan was brilliant: special forces + local proxies + lethal, targeted air power.

    Well, if by 'brilliant', O.F.F. means 'return large chunks of Afghanistan to the sectarian militias who spent most of the time between 1992 and 1996 firing mortars at each other', then I suppose so. But he does have a curious way of thinking.

    Look, how about we start a discussion of Afghanistan by admitting that this war was a lie every bit as much as the Iraq war, rather than trotting out platitudes about how it was a good justified war.

    I'm not saying this as some pacifist who believes war is always wrong. My point is that what happened on 9/11 was a bizarre freak occurrence, it was not any sort of mortal threat to western civilization. And responding to it as though we were engaged in WW3, as though this, rather than dealing with the Soviets and China, or dealing with peak oil or global warming, or dealing with over population, is the defining issue of our times was the fundamental clusterfsck that led to everything else that has gone wrong.

    If you want to respond accurately to a problem, have some sort of sane and accurate view of what the problem is. At no step along the way did the US bother to obtain such an accurate view, and the problem extends to pretty much the entire country. Dems, Repubs, most of the media, most of the blogs, all happily bought into this idea that 9/11 represented the most serious problem confronting the US, not just now, but perhaps in its entire history. Plenty of other countries in the rest of the world have lived through terrorism, from South Africa to Israel to the UK to Spain to India. But no, according to 90%+ of Americans, what happened on 9/11 was unique and deserved a response of apocalyptic proportions, to hell with the long term consequences.

    The only people in the US who turned out to have a sane view of what was going on were the ones that were not only widely mocked then but continue to be mocked now --- the Chomsky/Zinn crowd, Karl Stockhausen and so on.

    That Canada, as part of the British Empire, was sort of obligated to go to join the war in 1939.

    No, it wasn't. It could have elected to sit out. Of course, unlike in the US there was an overwhelming desire on the part of Canadians to help out and so they never considered it, but there was no legal obligation on them to join as they were self-governing.

    That the U.S. was supplying Britain with vital equipment and supplies and fighting an undeclared naval war against the Germans in the North Atlantic to get those supplies to Britain before we officially entered the war in 1941.

    Which still doesn't mean the US was in the war.

    That as much as FDR wanted to join the war in 1939, it was politically impossible for him to do so without a pretext at that point.

    Thanks, in large part, due to the efforts of the right-wing and Republicans who didn't want to fight their buddy Hitler. But this sort of concededs my point that while Canada was fighting, the US wasn't, and only got in the war because Hitler declared war on the US, not vice versa. If it had been up to the American people, barring a direct attack the US would never have chosen to fight. And when it was up to the Canadian people, they did fight.

    So Canada was "sort of" "obligated" to go join the war? No. Canada was definitely obligated to go join WWI. However, when Canad refused to join teh British war against Turkey, they created the rule that only Canada could decide when Canada would go to war. Which is why it took a week for Canada to declare war on Germany.

    And your point three is ludicrous. If conditions were politically impossible then IPSO FACTO the American people did not want to go to war with the Germans, much as the Canadian peope made it politically impossible for canada to join the US in Iraq. Because we would have toppled the government.

    "Sorry, Chris B. I should also give credit to the Australians, who have fought alongside the U.S. in pretty much every major war we've been in over the last century or so, even ones that the cool countries like Canada didn't approve of."

    Including the war on solving global warming.
    How's that working out for them these days?

    I suspect 30 years from now, they, like the British, will be realizing just how stupid a decision it was to support everything lunatic idea that pops into America's head.

    Canada, as part of the British Empire, was sort of obligated to go to join the war in 1939

    Nope, not even "sort of". See Statute of Westminster, 1931, the Sept. 1939 debate in the Canadian Parliament, etc.

    That as much as FDR wanted to join the war in 1939, it was politically impossible for him to do so without a pretext at that point.

    Oh right, because domestic political constraints on leaders preventing participation in war are "major points" worth taking seriously when the US has them. When other countries have them, they're just being feckless and "too cool".

    Displays of casual contempt toward long-time friends is not a very effective way of keeping them.

    "
    Could sticking Zahir Shah back on the throne have been any worse than making a restaurateur from Baltimore the Mayor of Kabul?
    "

    Well it worked well in Iran didn't it? Oh, wait...

    "
    Could sticking Zahir Shah back on the throne have been any worse than making a restaurateur from Baltimore the Mayor of Kabul?
    "

    Well it worked well in Iran didn't it? Oh, wait...

    In 1939, Canada had the same international status as Ireland. Ireland remained neutral through the war. Canada could easily have done so as well. Both world wars were highly unpopular in Quebec.

    The Canadian casualty rate has been about 15 per year. (82 casualties / ~5 years of Canadian involvement).

    Incorrect. That is only the Canadian death rate. The Canadian casualty rate (casualties equal dead plus wounded or otherwise incapacitated) is of course much higher.

    Maynard,

    Granted, we could have reacted to 9/11 by putting better doors and locks on cockpit doors, and calling it a day.

    On the other hand, it's normal for a State to chase down pirates and bandits. That G.W. Bush chose not to do so until 9/11 was just incompetence, proving that - yes - you can grab just anyone, push them through Yale, and teach them to fly an F-102.

    The point of staying in Afghanistan for any length of time is not to bring them up to Irani levels of culture and prosperity. It's just to try stabilizing Afghan society enough not to fuck our shit up again... other than that opium thing.

    My thanks again to the statesman G.H. Bush for dropping a fully armed and mined Afghanistan like a bad habit once the Soviets were gone. The capital gains tax crusade obviously required his full attention.

    "Granted, we could have reacted to 9/11 by putting better doors and locks on cockpit doors, and calling it a day."

    Or we could discuss the situation like adults, not Republicans. How about that as a possibility?

    There are many many many policy choices between what you suggest and declaring war on Afghanistan. For example the response could have been what practically every other country in this situation has done --- attack AQ camps and personnel and put pressure on the Afghan government --- but crucially not attack Afghanistan as a whole, including the vast bulk of its population who have nothing to do with the war.

    During the troubles, Britain never declared war on Ireland.

    During the Red Brigade days, Germany didn't feel the sensible response was to bomb East Berlin.

    Heck, even a country with the strength, relative to its neighbors, of South Africa never declared war on Mozambique, Angola and Zimbabwe (and its undeclared forays into Angola were driven by concerns other than that some ANC were training there).

    Even the US' bestest friend in the whole world, Israel, has enough sense to limit its interactions with its neighbors, when punishing supposed terrorist acts, to tit-for-tat retaliation.

    The point, as I say, is not one of pacifism; it is one of common sense, of asking yourself what the problem is, what the goals are, and what of the range of policy options whill get you to your goals.

    Thank you, Stefan -- I forgot to include your point about casualties. I was going to say: Leave it to a bloodthirsty rightwinger to not understand the most basic fact about how casualties are counted.

    I also meant to ask, more generally: How is it that the dismissive contempt shown by Fred and Robert Powell toward the current Afganistan mission does not warrant being labeled 'anti-American', as both have characterized liberal opposition to the current Iraq mission? It can't be that liberal opposition to war is indiscriminate -- Fred recently remarked that liberals generally support the Afghanistan mission. So is it only opposing wars that *conservatives* like that's anti-American? Please explain.

    Matt, why don't you apply to be press liason for the French government? Your argument is ridiculous. An attack on any NATO country is an attack on every NATO country, and given the enormous expenditures and sacrifices the US has made over the past 60 years, sacrifices which make Europeans welfare state possible, it is not only fair but a matter of principle to expect other NATO members to contribute fairly. Why should Australians, Canadians, and Dutch be fighting and dying alongside Americans while the French and Germans build houses? That is morally wrong and that kind of hypocrisy is making NATO increasingly irrelevant.

    Maynard, this view is shocking "My point is that what happened on 9/11 was a bizarre freak occurrence, it was not any sort of mortal threat to western civilization." An occurrence? It was not a weather event, it was a deliberate act of mass murder. Yes other countries have "lived through" terrorism but you are completely glossing over some pretty significant differences.

    1. 9/11 was the largest single terrorist attack of all time.
    2. The British case was about concrete political goals. Al Qaeda is a fundamentally different organization. No terrorist organization before it (except perhaps for Japan's Aum Shinriko) formalized mass murder as a religious duty in the way they did. Before you decide that Chomsky and his lunatic brigade are right (which would be a historical first) in thinking that Al Qaeda is not a threat, you ought to do a little reading. Visit a jihadi website. Read the philosophy. Ponder the fact that there are still regimes in the world who possess WMD and may decide to pass some on.
    Furthermore, governments don't have the luxury you do of just hoping everything is ok. In AQ we had a group of people dedicated to killing as many Americans as possible. The fundamental duty of a government is to protect its people. If AQ acquires BW,CW, or God forbid nuclear weapons, we could see an entire city vanish. The fact that some are still so naive as to not realize this possibility is amazing.
    Your counter-proposals are silly. Launching missles at AQ bases? That's what we had been doing for 20 years or so, and clearly it didn't work.
    Your reference to Chomsky is telling. At some point you will grasp that Chomsky and his ilk are completely amoral. They simply oppose everything that is not America. Please try and justify your argument morally, if you can. You are saying that after bloodthirsty murderers kill three thousand of your citizens, attempt to destroy its political centers, we should have responded by shooting a couple of missles and hoping for the best? What about Afghanistanis? How do you morally justify allowing the continued rule of the depraved Taliban, even after they shelter a man who murdered thousands of Americans? What about the Afghanistanis who would have continued to live under that bizarre time-warped regime? The women raped and murdered in honor killings? The children brain-washed by 12th century thinking and being taught to hate and kill all non-Muslims? The Afghanistanis who have died in the conflict are an absolute tragedy, but what you seem to not realize is that the majority of these deaths were inflicted by the Taliban. Any political decision invariably involves the weighing of moral costs; ie. is it better to invade, to protect one's own security, knowing that some innocents will die, but with the knowledge that you can remove evil men from power and end horrible oppression, and perhaps help to create a better future for millions? Please explain to me how it would have been more moral and how Afghanistanis would be better off had we allowed the Taliban to continue their rule of fear and torture?

    "Thanks, in large part, due to the efforts of the right-wing and Republicans who didn't want to fight their buddy Hitler."

    In 1939 elements of the left-wing didn't want to fight Hitler because he was still allied with their buddy Stalin. But aside from the relative handful of Stalin and Hitler fans in the U.S., there were a lot of Americans who were reluctant to see us join the war, and often had legitimate reasons for their reluctance.

    "If conditions were politically impossible then IPSO FACTO the American people did not want to go to war with the Germans"

    Where did I say the did?

    But aside from the relative handful of Stalin and Hitler fans in the U.S.,

    Hardly a relative handful of Hitler fans. To cite just one example, the America First Committee, for example, had a membership of over five million, including such prominent right-wingers as Lindbergh and Henry Ford. Add in Father Coughlin's followers, the KKK, the German-American Bund, the American Legion, the American Liberty League, the Republican Party, etc. and we get tens of millions of Americans supportive of or at least sympathetic to Fascism and/or Nazism.

    "How do you morally justify allowing the continued rule of the depraved Taliban, even after they shelter a man who murdered thousands of Americans? "

    So, Lord Pimsle, you view it as America's, heck the West's, role to do whatever is necessary, whatever the cost, to replace evil regimes with better ones?
    What do you suggest? That we first attack China or Russia? Or perhaps we should attack them both at the same time? Or maybe you'd prefer that we start by attacking Saudi Arabia or Nigeria?

    The world is full of evil people and full of evil regimes. The point is not to claim that these are good people and to support them in whatever they do (though that does seem to be the US' attitude towards Saudi Arabia). The point is what is the sensible thing to do to arrive at a better world.

    This is Matt being stupid again.

    This is Matt demonstrating once again that he has no clue that AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ ARE THE SAME WAR! As is the upcoming Iran war - which he still can't talk about, for the same reasons he talks around Afghanistan.

    Afghanistan was about an oil pipeline and heroin and a PR stunt after 9/11. Iraq was about oil and Israel and Iran.

    Matt just can't get his head around the fact that all these things are related. He STILL thinks that Bush really went into Afghanistan to "get bin Laden".

    And he really thinks that dumping 160,000 more US troops into Afghanistan is going to defeat the Taliban, instead of turning it into another Iraq.

    For somebody this stupid, I don't know what to tell him.

    And he doesn't have the smarts or the balls to actually try to make a case for the war in Afghanistan because he knows it would 1) be ripped to shreds by anyone with a brain, and 2) blow his cover as a "liberal internationalist" and screw sales of his lame book.

    In 1939 elements of the left-wing didn't want to fight Hitler because he was still allied with their buddy Stalin.

    Not still, *newly*. That happened in August 1939. Before that, the far left favored opposing Hitler and it was the right that didn't, and from 1939 to 41 the right still didn't. And conservatives were rather better represented in Congress than the Stalinists, thus more influential on FDR's actions.

    there were a lot of Americans who were reluctant to see us join the war, and often had legitimate reasons for their reluctance.

    Yes, perfectly true, "legitimate reasons". Just as legitimate as other countries' reluctance to back the US in Vietnam or Iraq. I'd like to hear you concede that. (Of course, I'd like a pony, too.)

    "Yes, perfectly true, "legitimate reasons". Just as legitimate as other countries' reluctance to back the US in Vietnam or Iraq. I'd like to hear you concede that. (Of course, I'd like a pony, too.)"

    I'll concede that Canada's leaders may have refrained from participating in Iraq for legitimate reasons; on the other hand, I think France's leaders had some illegitimate and corrupt reasons for their opposition. And if you really do want a pony I know someone who has one for sale. Seriously. Won't be cheap though.

    Q&A: Isaf troops in Afghanistan. Of note: The US has the largest number of troops in Afghanistan, but it also has by far the largest number of active-duty military personnel (1.4 million, compared to 195k for the UK, 100k for Germany, 62k for Canada, 61k for the Dutch, and so on). Speaking in terms of pure percentages of active-duty troops, many of these nations have more of their national forces committed to Afghanistan than the US (even including the US forces under Operation Enduring Freedom).

    So yeah, the US has the largest military presence, but that's what you would expect when the nation spends more on its military than almost everyone else in the world combined.

    Maynard,

    I did not suggest it was our duty to do that. You did not read my response very carefully. But when it is in line with our own security needs to do so, then yes it is worth it.

    What is your plan for "making the world better"? How do you square this with regimes like Iran, N Korea, etc.? Any innovative policy ideas?

    I'll concede that Canada's leaders may have refrained from participating in Iraq for legitimate reasons; on the other hand, I think France's leaders had some illegitimate and corrupt reasons for their opposition.

    Would that illegitimate and corrupt reason include the fact that the vast majority of their constituents opposed the war? Because in a democracy it's generally considered traditional to respect the wishes of the citizens.

    Gallup International Poll 2003:
    ~60% oppose any military action against Iraq. About a third of those polled support
    military action, most only if the U.N. backs it.

    A CSA Institute poll published on January 23 showed 73 percent of French people were
    against a U.S.-led attack on Iraq, up from 66 percent in a similar poll two weeks earlier.

    www.eriposte.com/war_peace/iraq/iraq_war_worldwide_support.htm

    Maynard,

    There are many many many policy choices between what you suggest and declaring war on Afghanistan. For example the response could have been what practically every other country in this situation has done --- attack AQ camps and personnel and put pressure on the Afghan government --- but crucially not attack Afghanistan as a whole, including the vast bulk of its population who have nothing to do with the war.

    Your point is taken. Unfortunately, OBL had bought his way into the Sultanate's government in his roles as an Islamic war veteran and a wealthy man. At the time, it seemed pretty clear to me that the Talibs weren't going to give him up for any reason. It probably wouldn't have hurt to spend a month or two more discussing it, but given our limited influence at the time, I doubt it would have changed a thing.

    It doesn't matter that the vast bulk of Afghanis had nothing to do with 9/11, any more than it mattered to OBL that the vast majority of Americans weren't party to his beefs. As invasions go, the scope of the fighting was relatively limited.

    The scope of the continuing war continues to be driven by colliding cultural norms: our desire to catch a very troublesome bandit versus Pashto inability to give up a fellow jihadi. The rest is peripheral.

    For the anal: I meant Pashtun, Pashto being the language.

    "I did not suggest it was our duty to do that. You did not read my response very carefully. But when it is in line with our own security needs to do so, then yes it is worth it.

    What is your plan for "making the world better"? How do you square this with regimes like Iran, N Korea, etc.? Any innovative policy ideas?
    "

    "Our security needs" in no way extend to going to war with Afghanistan; that's precisely my point. That was a choice and it was a stupid choice.

    As for making the world a better place, sure I have plenty of ideas.

    • Spend lots of money doing whatever works to reduce population growth everywhere in the world. In poor countries and rich countries, at home and abroad.

    • Spend lots of money researching energy efficiency and ways to extract the US from its current energy profile.
    Given that the US apparently has three trillion dollars to spend on stupid ways of supposedly making the world a better place, don't give me any crap about how there's no money for these.

    • Stop giving money to countries that don't need it (Israel), or deserve it (Egypt); and stop being best buddies with problematic countries (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan). You don't have to go to war with them, just leave them be.

    • Stop spending vast amounts of US government energy on bullshit statements regarding terrorism that serve only to inflame general ignorance and hatred ("terrorists are religiously motivated", they are "recruited via maddrassas", etc etc). There are people like Robert Pape and Scott Atran who have done real, scientific and detailed study on what motivates terrorists and how they operate, and pretty much everything they have learned contradicts pretty much everything the US government claims.

    • Stop the fscking torture. It does nothing to improve intelligence and simply switches the rest of the world to a fully-justified hatred of the US.

    What do we do about Iran and North Korea. We wait and we contain them --- same as worked with the Soviet Union, same as worked with China, same as worked with Spain, Portugal and Greece. We have the intelligence to realize that many problems are solved through undramatic behavior over a period of many years, rather than dramatic acts over a few months.

    What brings down population growth is economic growth. That is why US, Europe, and Japan have lower growth than the developing world.

    "What do we do about Iran and North Korea. We wait and we contain them --- same as worked with the Soviet Union, same as worked with China" A fair argument. But you should acknowledge its costs. While we "wait," North Koreans will continue to starve and be tortured. We will not suffer for this waiting, but they will. Second, China hasn't "worked." True they are no longer communist, but they are still a brutal dictatorship. As for the Soviet Union, it is odd for you to proclaim containment as a success, when judging by your current stance you would probably oppose many if not most of the tactical actions taken which ensured the success of that strategy. Every strategy has a cost, there is no perfect peaceful path that will guarantee success and not hurt anyone.

    You don't think Al Qaeda is religiously-motivated? What motivates them then? Have you ever read jihadist communications and documents? Where does your interpretation derive from?

    Your responses are written for a world of pure ideals, not a real world. I agree that Israel does not need our financial support, and that Egypt does not deserve it. But in the real world, nations need to be able to buy oil. You can condemn this all you want, but it will not change. Saudia Arabia has the largest reserves. Pakistan is critical to success in Afghanistan and preventing further Al Qaeda attacks.

    What is so odd to me is how much your ideas depend on faith. We know from experience and from what the enemy blatantly tells us that Al Qaeda and other jihadist groups are seeking WMD and will use them against Westerners. Where does your faith that this is "bullshit" and "not a threat" come from? If you did read jihadi documents, you would realize that they believe the West is spiritual empty and lacks the will even to defend itself. Statements like yours, in their determination to pretend threats don't exist support their claim.

    Others have raised similar points, but it really is odd that Matthew can so vehemently hold the Iraq-is-hopeless-not-worth-our-efforts and Afghanistan-must-be-seen-through-at-all-costs positions at the same time. His critique of the mission in Iraq, which is reasonable enough even if I don't agree with it, includes saying - repeatedly - things like that it is open-ended, ill-defined, lacks metrics, and that the best conceivable end state, vs. the likely investment for us to get there, probably does not even begin to survive a cost-benefit analysis.

    That's what Matthew says, often rather effectively, about Iraq. About Afghanistan, however, it's just the opposite: we must achieve "success", says he. The "effort" there has "importance". The NATO allies are "making important contributions".

    Um, doing what, exactly? What would "success" mean to Matthew in Afghanistan? Why is the "effort" "important"? And why are the NATO allies' "contributions" (meaning what?) so crucial?

    I'm not asking these things because I nec. disagree with these assertions Matthew makes about Afghanistan. I'm asking them because I can't understand how he could possibly give answers that would not also apply equally, if not more so, to Iraq.

    One further point is that Matthew speaks here as if our primary, overarching aim in Afghanistan is (or should be) to maximize the number of non-American NATO troops who are stationed in Afghanistan. He has pointed out a little article about how Canadian troop levels in Afghanistan may be lessened due to the US having troops in Iraq bla bla bla and he puts this forth as if this supposed fact stands on its own and needs no further argument. But even stipulating the claim presented, so what if there are fewer Canadian (or whatever) troops in Afghanistan going forward? Why exactly do we want more Canadian troops to be in Afghanistan? To do what? Do we want NATO troops to be in Afghanistan just for the sake of having lots of NATO troops in Afghanistan? Why? To what end? Matthew does not say. Does he even know?

    And this is precisely why the "distraction" argument rings so hollow. The people putting it forth don't even pretend to care about what they claim needs to be achieved in Afghanistan, let alone how they would go about it or why X number of troops is necessary for doing so. The only real lesson one can take away from this post is that the Iraq garrison is bad because it reduces the number of troops that Canada and unnamed other countries are willing to station in Afghanistan. Apparently, it is supposed to be a given that non-American troops being stationed in Afghanistan is an absolute good, to be maximized at all costs and regardless of all other considerations. The reason we want these troops to be stationed in Afghanistan apparently goes without saying.

    Ironic, this sort of thing coming from the very people quickest to point out the vagueness and ill-defined nature of the mission in Iraq. Replace "Afghanistan" with "Iraq" everywhere above and Matthew would write 20+ posts a day pointing out the hollowness inherent in the argument. Politically-convenient talking-points tend to bring out just this sort of contradiction.

    Very well said. We could have 30,000 more troops in Afghanistan and it wouldn't help us defeat Al Qaeda. Unless we sent half a million troops to the tribal regions of Pakistan (a region which has never been effectively controlled by anyone), the situation will not change much.

    Not to flog a dead horse, but it seems to me that the crucial factor overlooked by many posters here is the fundamental importance of nation states. We are engaged in both Afghanistan and in Iraq as a result of the malfeasance of their previous governments. When you remove a regime, you're obligated to replace it with something, preferably something that's more compatible with your values and interests than the regime that was removed.

    Afghanistan is important, but there is no significant area of interest in which Iraq is not MORE important.

    The initial invasion of Afghanistan was brilliant: special forces + local proxies + lethal, targeted air power. Rumsfeld deserves credit for ignoring Shinseki's advice on that one.

    Really? If that were true, it would seem to me the results would speak for themselves.

    And they do: we're stuck in yet another quagmire.

    Proof's in the pudding. If "going light" is such a good idea, then why are we mired in intractible wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

    Maynard Handley:

    "• Spend lots of money doing whatever works to reduce population growth everywhere in the world. In poor countries and rich countries, at home and abroad."

    It's a little too late for that, thanks partly to Norman Borlaug's Green Revolution (and also to antibiotics, vaccines, pesticides, etc.). Before those Western technologies were introduced, populations were a lot lower in the Muslim world, and most of the people there went about their business fairly uneventfully for hundreds of years as part of the Ottoman Empire.

    Sonic Charmer,

    Well said. It would be great if Matthew Yglesias would engage on this topic.

    Powell's full of shit again.

    There was absolutely zero need to go into Afghanistan, whether or not bin Laden and Al Qaeda were there and whether or not the Taliban government were supporting or harboring them.

    Certainly there was no need to overthrow the pathetic little Taliban government in this generally irrelevant Third World country just to deal with a relatively small group of jihadists who were only able to pull off 9/11 because of the incompetence of the Federal intelligence agencies - and the support of Mossad and perhaps Dick Cheney.

    Anybody who thinks this was some sort of military or even political necessity is a moron.

    Once again, the critical need for the US in dealing with terrorism is to change its foreign policy so as to remove itself as a target of terrorism. This could be done in a week.

    1) Abandon the Middle East - recall all troops, eliminate all bases, withdraw from Iraq, stop threatening Iran.

    2) Abandon Israel - no more foreign aid. Demand Israel be subjected to the NPT and the IAEA inspections in the UN - demand nuclear disarmament. Demand in the UN that Israel withdraw to the 1947 partition borders. Demand that Israel release all Palestinian prisoners not charged with specific offenses. Demand that Israel recognize the right of return of all Palestinians to Palestine.

    3) Abandon Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and the UAE - no more foreign aid, no military aid.

    4) Withdraw from Afghanistan.

    5) Stop foreign aid to Pakistan.

    None of those actions would cost the US a dime, and none of them would threaten US national security in the slightest.

    What they would do is make bin Laden take the US off the target list - if he really believed we meant it.

    The problem is this: you'd have to shoot most of Congress, and most of the oil company executives, the military-industrial complex executives, and the executives of the investment banks involved with them. And all the neocons, too, of course - and probably a significant percentage of Republicans - and maybe 10 or 15 million Christian Zionists.

    Otherwise, it's never going to happen.

    So get ready for SERIOUS terrorism in the future when the Muslim world has finally had it up to here with the US. Iran alone can pour hundreds, thousands, maybe scores of thousands of terrorists into this country. They have a Basij militia that numbers 400,000 to 11 million, depending on which estimate you rely on. They'll never run out of terrorists to send here. A hundred of them with handguns, hand grenades, AK's and Semtex can bring this country to martial law in a month. The economy will evaporate.

    "Really? If that were true, it would seem to me the results would speak for themselves."

    They did: the Taliban was deposed in a matter of weeks, with hardly any American casualties. That we are still mired in a difficult mission in Afghanistan has nothing to with the way we deposed the Taliban and everything to do with moving the goal posts to nation building in a place that has always been a fourth world shit hole. Had we simply turned Afghanistan over to the our local proxies, the Northern Alliance, and confined our mission to simply suppressing any resurgence of the Taliban or Al Qaeda, our mission in Afghanistan would have been a lot cheaper and easier, and it would have required a lot fewer troops and resulted in fewer casualties.

    In the case of Iraq, the way we deposed Saddam did make the resulting mission more difficult. The main problem wasn't size but speed -- too much of it. Rather than a rush to Baghdad, a slower, anaconda approach would have led to better results. We would have been better off if our coalition had first pacified the Sunni heartland, confiscated and destroyed weapons caches, etc. before closing in on Baghdad.

    Richard,

    "What they would do is make bin Laden take the US off the target list - if he really believed we meant it."

    An admirable, morally courageous stance. So we should essentially surrender to Bin Laden. I suppose you think we should have sacrifice continental Europe to mollify Hitler as well?

    I suppose you think we should have sacrifice [sic] continental Europe to mollify Hitler as well?

    Um, we did. Remember? From September 1939 to December 1941 the US did nothing to stop Hitler's conquest of Europe and was happy to sit by and watch it happen. America only entered the war after Hitler declared war on the US a few days after Pearl Harbor. Absent that direct provocation, Britain (and her Commonwealth allies) would have been left by us to fight alone.

    Stefan, not quite as simple as that. Have you ever heard of the Lend-Lease Program?

    Your point falls flat in this context as well, since, like Hitler after Pearl Harbor, Bin Laden has declared war on the US.

    Robert Powell,

    I'm afraid you've given the game away here:

    When you remove a regime, you're obligated to replace it with something, preferably something that's more compatible with your values and interests than the regime that was removed.

    With "your" values and interests? I would say 'with the values and interests of the people who live there'. No?

    Otherwise all your noble claims to be upholding international law, punishing bad behavior etc. look like merely pretexts for grabbing geopolitical advantage for yourself. Which I actually think is an accurate characterization of US policy in Iraq (less obviously so in Afghanistan). I'm surprised you concede so much.

    Ryan, what is wrong with our values? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? How do you feel about women being stoned for committing adultery? What about hanging homosexuals? In my mind, stopping these things is in line with the values and interest of the people living there, except for those who want to oppress. What do you care more about, helping the victims of oppression, or not offending the "values" of those who believe it is every Muslim's duty to kill a Crusader or Jew?

    Ryan, what is wrong with our values? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? How do you feel about women being stoned for committing adultery? What about hanging homosexuals? In my mind, stopping these things is in line with the values and interest of the people living there, except for those who want to oppress. What do you care more about, helping the victims of oppression, or not offending the "values" of those who believe it is every Muslim's duty to kill a Crusader or Jew?

    Ryan, what is wrong with our values? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? How do you feel about women being stoned for committing adultery? What about hanging homosexuals? In my mind, stopping these things is in line with the values and interest of the people living there, except for those who want to oppress. What do you care more about, helping the victims of oppression, or not offending the "values" of those who believe it is every Muslim's duty to kill a Crusader or Jew?

    Ryan, what is wrong with our values? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? How do you feel about women being stoned for committing adultery? What about hanging homosexuals? In my mind, stopping these things is in line with the values and interest of the people living there, except for those who want to oppress. What do you care more about, helping the victims of oppression, or not offending the "values" of those who believe it is every Muslim's duty to kill a Crusader or Jew?

    Ryan, what is wrong with our values? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? How do you feel about women being stoned for committing adultery? What about hanging homosexuals? In my mind, stopping these things is in line with the values and interest of the people living there, except for those who want to oppress. What do you care more about, helping the victims of oppression, or not offending the "values" of those who believe it is every Muslim's duty to kill a Crusader or Jew?

    You didn't need to ask me four times, DHobgood.

    In my mind, stopping these things [stoning adulterers, hanging gays, etc.] is in line with the values and interest of the people living there, except for those who want to oppress.

    I agree! Fancy that.

    However, the examples you cite are by no means the sum total of the changes which the US has brought to Afghanistan's public life. For example, it has also launched a major war against narcotics production. It's not clear to me that *that* war is in line with the interests or values of the Afghani people affected or, indeed, with those of the country as a whole. And yet the US is doing it anyway. It is thereby prioritizing *its own* values and (perceived) interests over those of the people of the country it claimed to be liberating. It has no right to do so.

    If you read my post, though, you'd see I have less of a problem, in general, with US policy in Afgh than I do with US policy in Iraq. (And revealingly, all the ills you cite the US as having ended were much, much more prevalent in Afgh.) US policy in Iraq has been transparently cynical -- read: self-serving -- in ways far too numerous and well-established to need recounting.

    Ryan, what is wrong with our values? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? How do you feel about women being stoned for committing adultery? What about hanging homosexuals? In my mind, stopping these things is in line with the values and interest of the people living there, except for those who want to oppress. What do you care more about, helping the victims of oppression, or not offending the "values" of those who believe it is every Muslim's duty to kill a Crusader or Jew?

    Stefan, not quite as simple as that. Have you ever heard of the Lend-Lease Program?

    I have. Remind me when as part of the Lend-Lease Program we declared war on Nazi Germany and began an aggressive campaign to roll back his conquest of Europe?

    This is really sad. I know there's this pathetic attempt to pump up the War on Terra (TM) to WWII and therefore a concomittant attempt to buff up our role in that war, but the historical facts are the facts. The US was pretty much the last major power to join the fight against fascism.

    Your point falls flat in this context as well, since, like Hitler after Pearl Harbor, Bin Laden has declared war on the US.

    Hitler commanded the most powerful empire and military in the world at that time. Bin Laden commands a few thousand guys. Just because some crackpot declared war on us, were we thereby obliged to go along with his delusion?

    Ryan,

    Your question, and Robert Powell's response, hinge on whether you consider representative democracy an American value, or a broader aspiration. Judging by the zeal with which Iraqis went to the polls to elect their current legislature, they seem to share the general aspiration for having a democratic government. That doesn't mean they share all of our values (e.g., separation of church and state, enthusiasm for gay marriage, etc.), but it (and the preponderance of democracies worldwide) does suggest that democracy itself isn't solely an American value.

    In other words, Fred thinks that as long as people vote, it's a "democracy" and we should support it.

    Ooops, Hamas got elected in a free vote certified by Jimmy Carter.

    Well, guess Fred has an exception there...

    Bottom line: Fred and Powell want to impose the US way of life on everyone - with emphasis on the word "impose".

    Morons.

    Stefan,

    The point was that we didn't "sit by" during during the build up to WWII.

    "The US was pretty much the last major power to join the fight against fascism."

    Um...yeah...cuz the others were invaded. Why do you feel this need to denigrate the US' past?

    Ryan--
    Your point of view assumes that we invaded Iraq only because we wanted to "impose our values", and thereby "grab advantage", presumably unwarrented advantage.

    This is only true so far as our values include an international system that's congruent with what we've learned from history as a species, as agreed upon by the 193 national governments that have joined the UN based on at least nominal agreement with these values as of a universal human nature. There are lots of places we don't like that we don't invade. Absolutely none of them have a record remotely like that of Iraq in terms of undermining the only international system we've got at the moment that provides a mechanism for acting against wars of aggression, genocide, proliferation and use of wmd's, state sponsorship of terrorism, etc.

    "Absolutely none of them have a record remotely like that of Iraq in terms of undermining the only international system we've got at the moment that provides a mechanism for acting against wars of aggression, genocide, proliferation and use of wmd's, state sponsorship of terrorism, etc."

    Israel qualifies on all counts.

    1) They ignore UN resolutions directed against them.

    2) They make WMDs.

    3) They sponsor state terrorism against the Palestinians and have conducted terrorist acts in other countries against Palestinians and others.

    4) They are attempting ethnic cleansing, if not actual genocide, against the Palestinians.

    5) They have attacked their neighbors several times and committed war crimes in the process of doing so.

    6) Their ideology is racist, imperialist, and religiously fanatical.

    7) They are an illegal state as the UN did not have the legal right to partition Palestine as it did in 1947 and because their borders are not defined.

    8) They are a "rogue" state in that they refuse to abide by international agreements accepted by most other states such as the NPT and laws concerning war crimes.

    So fuck you, Powell.

    I assume everyone reading here can tell the risible equation of Israel with Ba'athist Iraq for exactly what it is.

    It is worth noting that, among other things, such bombast often, as it does above, reveal ignorance of the difference between Cha