« Pandas | Main | Fake Fame »

Obama on Latin America

24 May 2008 09:48 am

There's a tendency, given the urgency of the moment, to treat "foreign policy" as equivalent to "Iraq" for political purposes but of course it's a whole much broader subject than that. The world's a big place, and nobody can say what's really going to look important in 2011, so it's always good to look at people's ideas about other subjects. In that vein, I liked Barack Obama's Latin America speech a lot:

No wonder, then, that demagogues like Hugo Chavez have stepped into this vacuum. His predictable yet perilous mix of anti-American rhetoric, authoritarian government, and checkbook diplomacy offers the same false promise as the tried and failed ideologies of the past. But the United States is so alienated from the rest of the Americas that this stale vision has gone unchallenged, and has even made inroads from Bolivia to Nicaragua. And Chavez and his allies are not the only ones filling the vacuum. While the United States fails to address the changing realities in the Americas, others from Europe and Asia – notably China – have stepped up their own engagement. Iran has drawn closer to Venezuela, and just the other day Tehran and Caracas launched a joint bank with their windfall oil profits.

That is the record – the Bush record in Latin America – that John McCain has chosen to embrace. Senator McCain doesn’t talk about these trends in our hemisphere because he knows that it’s part of the broader Bush-McCain failure to address priorities beyond Iraq. The situation has changed in the Americas, but we’ve failed to change with it. Instead of engaging the people of the region, we’ve acted as if we can still dictate terms unilaterally. We have not offered a clear and comprehensive vision, backed up with strong diplomacy. We are failing to join the battle for hearts and minds. For far too long, Washington has engaged in outdated debates and stuck to tired blueprints on drugs and trade, on democracy and development -- even though they won’t meet the tests of the future.

When you think about the tension in U.S. foreign policy between the internationalist strand and the imperialist strand, Latin America -- the part of the world we encountered before the rise of liberalism -- has always been a locus of imperialist thinking. As Greg Grandin fairly persuasively argues, one way of understanding the Bush foreign policy is that he's taken ideas and techniques developed in America's (mis)treatment of our near abroad and gone global with them. Obama wants to do the reverse, and bring the internationalist spirit of respectful engagement and cooperation to the Western Hemisphere:

No wonder, then, that demagogues like Hugo Chavez have stepped into this vacuum. His predictable yet perilous mix of anti-American rhetoric, authoritarian government, and checkbook diplomacy offers the same false promise as the tried and failed ideologies of the past. But the United States is so alienated from the rest of the Americas that this stale vision has gone unchallenged, and has even made inroads from Bolivia to Nicaragua. And Chavez and his allies are not the only ones filling the vacuum. While the United States fails to address the changing realities in the Americas, others from Europe and Asia – notably China – have stepped up their own engagement. Iran has drawn closer to Venezuela, and just the other day Tehran and Caracas launched a joint bank with their windfall oil profits.

That is the record – the Bush record in Latin America – that John McCain has chosen to embrace. Senator McCain doesn’t talk about these trends in our hemisphere because he knows that it’s part of the broader Bush-McCain failure to address priorities beyond Iraq. The situation has changed in the Americas, but we’ve failed to change with it. Instead of engaging the people of the region, we’ve acted as if we can still dictate terms unilaterally. We have not offered a clear and comprehensive vision, backed up with strong diplomacy. We are failing to join the battle for hearts and minds. For far too long, Washington has engaged in outdated debates and stuck to tired blueprints on drugs and trade, on democracy and development -- even though they won’t meet the tests of the future.

I think this is the correct way of making the Bush-McCain linkages. A lot of people chafe at the idea that Bush and McCain are "the same" since the animosity between them is well known and insofar as one can tell about these things (not so far, in my view, but nevertheless...) they seem to have rather different characters. But across very large swathes of the issue landscape, they have the same policies with Bush having adopted some of John McCain's 2000-vintage ideas and McCain having adopted some of Bush's ideas, leaving us with few areas in which McCain even says he wants to change Bush's policies.

Share This

Comments (57)

It's just my personal bias, but I tend to focus on foreign policy in evaluating a president (each voter has his or her own area of preferred focus, I'm sure).

On this, McCain really is Bush III.

I like McCain in general. I think a Republican party that looked more like him and less like the Bush years would be a competitive, often viable, alternative to the Democrats (in other words, a Republican party that's jettisoned the crazies). But McCain's foreign policy approach is a huge and insurmountable liability in my eyes.

Wow. Strangely enough, Barack Obama's speech apparently is drawn word-for-word from Grandin's book, which is sort of unusual, I would think. That's pretty powerful.

What does that speech actually say? This, for instance:

"We have not offered a clear and comprehensive vision, backed up with strong diplomacy. We are failing to join the battle for hearts and minds."

Can you get any less specific? If you don't like how our policy is toward Venezuela now, tell us how you'd change/improve it. More rhetoric without anything behind it.

Yes Obama's speech yesterday was a shift in tectonic plates big. It was historically aware (he referenced the Monroe Doctrine without even having to say that, closed with throwing out the name of Hidalgo) savvy about the little things that matter to Latin Americans and a serious display of understanding of how people who do democracy promotion of the ground by focusing on institutions, transparency and civil society. There is a lot of agreement from scholars and policy experts who actually pay attention to Latin America, or are from Latin America, so I wouldn't say this is just about drawing from Grandin but drawing on a wider circle of knowledge than the very stale one the current administration does.

Obama wants to do the reverse, and bring the internationalist spirit of respectful engagement and cooperation to the Western Hemisphere:

Well, maybe. But it seems that you are just assuming that more diplomatic engagement and more effective public diplomacy are the same thing as "internationalism". They are not. Soft power imperialism and increasing ones competitive edge through effective public diplomacy are not the same thing as internationalism. Obama seems to be framing the issues here is conventional US competitive terms. The "problem" in Latin America is declining US power and influence, and shrinking opportunities for US capital. Why are Latin Americans launching joint ventures with Europeans, Chinese and - heavens to Betsy - the Iranians, instead of with our guys?

He seems to be suggesting that the entire leftward drift in Latin America is part of the problem, and represents a failure by the US to capture "hearts and minds". Capture them on behalf of what? The Washington Consensus? The American Way of Life? Whatever it is, the passage contains nothing about internationalist initiatives. He's just talking about a big US PR push that will help expand our business opportunities and chase away competitors.

Well, you can understand why McCain wants to keep his Banana Republics -- he was born in Panama. Back before the natives got restless. Cause we had the machine guns and they didn't. Besides, Panama was a nice place to be during the Great Depression. Fruit on the trees for the picking.

Ah, the White Man's Burden.

Look, can someone tell Matt please that he's got 2 of the same quoted passages when I'm pretty sure he meant to have 2 different things up there?

Wow. This may be Matt's first post without a spelling error, and yet he knocks off a doozy of a meta-typo by reblocking the same quotation. Help me out, is this hypertextuality or heteroglossia?

No wonder, then, that demagogues like Hugo Chavez have stepped into this vacuum. His predictable yet perilous mix of anti-American rhetoric, authoritarian government, and checkbook diplomacy offers the same false promise as the tried and failed ideologies of the past. But the United States is so alienated from the rest of the Americas that this stale vision has gone unchallenged, and has even made inroads from Bolivia to Nicaragua. And Chavez and his allies are not the only ones filling the vacuum. While the United States fails to address the changing realities in the Americas, others from Europe and Asia – notably China – have stepped up their own engagement. Iran has drawn closer to Venezuela, and just the other day Tehran and Caracas launched a joint bank with their windfall oil profits.

That is the record – the Bush record in Latin America – that John McCain has chosen to embrace. Senator McCain doesn’t talk about these trends in our hemisphere because he knows that it’s part of the broader Bush-McCain failure to address priorities beyond Iraq. The situation has changed in the Americas, but we’ve failed to change with it. Instead of engaging the people of the region, we’ve acted as if we can still dictate terms unilaterally. We have not offered a clear and comprehensive vision, backed up with strong diplomacy. We are failing to join the battle for hearts and minds. For far too long, Washington has engaged in outdated debates and stuck to tired blueprints on drugs and trade, on democracy and development -- even though they won’t meet the tests of the future.

Matt:

You've block quoted the same passage twice.

What does that speech actually say? ... Can you get any less specific?

Yes. By not even addressing that there's an anti-American drift occurring down there.

Current events in Mexico are so disturbing that, perforce, our concerns there are going to become more than a Lou Dobbs sideshow.

Here is but one example which I pulled from the LA Times site to illustrate my point:

Homicides related to organized crime have jumped 47% in Mexico this year, the country's attorney general said Friday in a rare confirmation of how bad the violence has become.
The statistic reflected what many in Mexico already knew: Drug-related killings have soared.

There are almost daily reports of outright warfare between the Mexican government and drug cartels. High ranking officials are being assassinated; the police and military have been infiltrated.

Matt, what do you mean by "before the rise of liberalism"? Liberal foreign policy notions (which certainly have an ancestor in Jefferson)? Liberalism qua market-society? The shift to contract law over status-law? Please clarify.

PROOFREAD, MOTHERFUCKER.

Yes! As a US citizen of Latin American origin, I think he hit it out of the park. Somebody in the thread was asking for specifics, but what I see as important here is the change of attitude. Latin Americans are tired to be treated as children that need to be told what to do. I think the US would be much more successful in Latin America we engage in a 2-way conversation. Definitively, Brazil and Chile are ready for something like that, but I would argue that Argentina and even Chavez Venezuela would be more agreeable.

Yes! As a US citizen of Latin American origin, I think he hit it out of the park. Somebody in the thread was asking for specifics, but what I see as important here is the change of attitude. Latin Americans are tired to be treated as children that need to be told what to do. I think the US would be much more successful in Latin America we engage in a 2-way conversation. Definitively, Brazil and Chile are ready for something like that, but I would argue that Argentina and even Chavez Venezuela would be more agreeable.

I don't know. I've been in both Iran and Venezuela and it seems to me that they look like the rest of the world in this aspect: their elections concern domestic issues above all. Show me the Iranian or Venezuelan voter who will use his/her vote to spite the US or to please the US.

Chavez is all right, certainly better than the corrupt class the US wants to put back in power. I don't know if he wants an opening to the US, though, since he'd miss the fun of yankee-baiting. Let him be.

I find the speech, especially the antagonistic portion quoted by Yglesias, disgraceful - this is the opposite of diplomacy. A shockingly bad speech - treating Latin Americans as children.

"No wonder, then, that demagogues like Hugo Chavez have stepped into this vacuum. His predictable yet perilous mix of anti-American rhetoric, authoritarian government, and checkbook diplomacy offers the same false promise as the tried and failed ideologies of the past. But the United States is so alienated from the rest of the Americas that this stale vision has gone unchallenged, and has even made inroads from Bolivia to Nicaragua. And Chavez and his allies are not the only ones filling the vacuum. While the United States fails to address the changing realities in the Americas, others from Europe and Asia – notably China – have stepped up their own engagement. Iran has drawn closer to Venezuela, and just the other day Tehran and Caracas launched a joint bank with their windfall oil profits."

This is really offensive.

Here you have Obama speaking of Latin Americans as though they were ignorant children and fear-mongering about Iran in some strange way I don't get. This is a terrible foreign policy speech and should not be allowed to go uncriticized because Obama made it - just the reverse.

So you're a Hugo Chavez fan, Jen? Shocking.

South Jerk, you are a bullying ignorant worm.

This speech was terrible and shows disdain for Latin Americans who can choose the leaders they wish. Lots of people admire Evo Morales, so why the insult for Bolivian voters? This speech was an American imperial statement that should immediately be rejected.

Can you manage to understand South Jerk

Hugo Chavez was fairly elected and even survived a coup attempt that immediately we supported. The Venezuelans can elected the president they wish.

Venezuela has good relations with the Kennedy family from what I have read.

No wonder I will not be voting for President. The Obama supporter bullies are the real authoritarian crazies.

To hell with the Obama supporter bullies.

Obama is playing at being the tough guy in insulting Chavez and anyone in Latin America who may admire Chavez as many do. To insult Bolivians and Venezuelans because they do not vote as an American president might wish is terrible. What sort of diplomacy can this be?

Flowery rhetoric I would love to agree with, but it seems to me the worst imperialists around these days are the labor barons and their demagogues that are blocking CAFTA. Please allow our little brown brothers into our markets, and not blame them for the problems caused by our sclerotic union work rules and bureaucracy.

Alert: Reporting a double standard
Get These Latest Designs
Hill Referencing Kennedy
This and more on…

http://sensico.wordpress.com/

Listening to the whole speech clarified some of the questions regarding Chavez. Obama acknowledges he was elected democratically but questions if he governs democratically. Also points out issues of violence, it does not matter where the violence is coming from for the citizens, whether from a right wing paramilitary, a leftist terrorist or drug cartel. Also points at Bush's clumsy interventions in the region.
I think its great and far reaching. Let the Latin American citizens take the lead in the direction they want their country to go.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gGCMCY/commentary

No wonder, then, that demagogues like Hugo Chavez have stepped into this vacuum. His predictable yet perilous mix of anti-American rhetoric, authoritarian government, and checkbook diplomacy offers the same false promise as the tried and failed ideologies of the past. But the United States is so alienated from the rest of the Americas that this stale vision has gone unchallenged, and has even made inroads from Bolivia to Nicaragua. And Chavez and his allies are not the only ones filling the vacuum. While the United States fails to address the changing realities in the Americas, others from Europe and Asia – notably China – have stepped up their own engagement. Iran has drawn closer to Venezuela, and just the other day Tehran and Caracas launched a joint bank with their windfall oil profits.

That is the record – the Bush record in Latin America – that John McCain has chosen to embrace. Senator McCain doesn’t talk about these trends in our hemisphere because he knows that it’s part of the broader Bush-McCain failure to address priorities beyond Iraq. The situation has changed in the Americas, but we’ve failed to change with it. Instead of engaging the people of the region, we’ve acted as if we can still dictate terms unilaterally. We have not offered a clear and comprehensive vision, backed up with strong diplomacy. We are failing to join the battle for hearts and minds. For far too long, Washington has engaged in outdated debates and stuck to tired blueprints on drugs and trade, on democracy and development -- even though they won’t meet the tests of the future.

It appears that the long-time leader of the FARC guerrilla movement, Manuel Marulanda (aka "Tirofijo" or "SureShot") was killed in a recent set of bombings of FARC operating areas.

One can only hope it might lead to both the continued decay of the FARC side of Colombia's civil war and the continued rooting out of the right wing narco-paramilitary death squads which were promoted throughout Colombian society as the right's way of fighting mafia with mafia, and ended up killing far more than the FARC ever did.

No wonder, then, that demagogues like Hugo Chavez have stepped into this vacuum. His predictable yet perilous mix of anti-American rhetoric, authoritarian government, and checkbook diplomacy offers the same false promise as the tried and failed ideologies of the past. But the United States is so alienated from the rest of the Americas that this stale vision has gone unchallenged, and has even made inroads from Bolivia to Nicaragua. And Chavez and his allies are not the only ones filling the vacuum. While the United States fails to address the changing realities in the Americas, others from Europe and Asia – notably China – have stepped up their own engagement. Iran has drawn closer to Venezuela, and just the other day Tehran and Caracas launched a joint bank with their windfall oil profits.

That is the record – the Bush record in Latin America – that John McCain has chosen to embrace. Senator McCain doesn’t talk about these trends in our hemisphere because he knows that it’s part of the broader Bush-McCain failure to address priorities beyond Iraq. The situation has changed in the Americas, but we’ve failed to change with it. Instead of engaging the people of the region, we’ve acted as if we can still dictate terms unilaterally. We have not offered a clear and comprehensive vision, backed up with strong diplomacy. We are failing to join the battle for hearts and minds. For far too long, Washington has engaged in outdated debates and stuck to tired blueprints on drugs and trade, on democracy and development -- even though they won’t meet the tests of the future.

Just thought I'd mention that again.

Dannity makes a good point. Someone should forward it to one of Obama's speechwriters.

El,
Dannity's point is a quote from Obama's speech, check it out in his website, its fairly comprehensive and a real change in mindset on Americas policy

Chavez staged the coup of '91, that destabilized Venezuelan economy, sufficently enough to allow
hor his election 7 years later. He did this with
support from the FARC as the new computer files show. He was allied with the Marxist Red Flag movement, some seven years before that; and played
a small role in an attempted coup d'etat back in 1985. The Clinton administration accomodated him despite his appointment of former Red Flag guerilla Ali Rodriguez as OPEC chief back during the previous oil spike of 1999-2000; his extreme
negligence during the Vargas Flood incident of 1999; and the growing influence of Cuba on the Venezuelan economy, society and politics.

Matt: "There's a tendency, given the urgency of the moment, to treat "foreign policy" as equivalent to "Iraq" for political purposes but of course it's a whole much broader subject than that."

Yeah - there's Iran, too.

Or did you forget to mention it again?

Obama: "And Chavez and his allies are not the only ones filling the vacuum. While the United States fails to address the changing realities in the Americas, others from Europe and Asia – notably China – have stepped up their own engagement. Iran has drawn closer to Venezuela, and just the other day Tehran and Caracas launched a joint bank with their windfall oil profits."

Excuse me?

Is there something wrong with China and Iran making deals with other countries - like the US does?

Is this the Obama "changed mentality" in foreign policy we've heard so much about? The notion that the world is a zero-sum game which only the US is allowed to win - and nobody else is allowed to play?

Dan Kervick: "Obama seems to be framing the issues here is conventional US competitive terms. The "problem" in Latin America is declining US power and influence, and shrinking opportunities for US capital. Why are Latin Americans launching joint ventures with Europeans, Chinese and - heavens to Betsy - the Iranians, instead of with our guys?

He seems to be suggesting that the entire leftward drift in Latin America is part of the problem, and represents a failure by the US to capture "hearts and minds". Capture them on behalf of what? The Washington Consensus? The American Way of Life? Whatever it is, the passage contains nothing about internationalist initiatives. He's just talking about a big US PR push that will help expand our business opportunities and chase away competitors."

Dan gets this exactly right.

This is "Bush Lite", not some major change in US foreign policy.

And last but not least:

Matt, next time you decide to shave your beard...

HIRE A PROOFREADER INSTEAD!

Jennifer, did Obama promise another coup attempt in Venezuela? Are American politicians not allowed to be wary of or against other state's leaders just because there was an election? Chavez is the one treating Venezuelans like children by doing things like pulling off any television programs that are critical of him or support values he doesn't like, which thus robs Venezuelans of the right to make their own viewing choices. He was explaining how American foreign policy - the policy of treating Latin Americans like children - has led to the rise of the likes of Chavez. You just seem to want to be angry about something a lot of the time.

Reality Man, I don't like Chavez or Castro and I'm praying daily that Obama will get elected - but actually Jennifer is making a good point here, that is she points out an aspect that the people of the US almost always ignore:

Even the most benevolent hegemony will encounter justified resentment and, as Dan Kervick pointed out, there's a fine line between hegemony and internationalism. The latter is hard to achieve as long as US foreign policy is partially driven by an aggressive military-industrial complex and democracy promotion goes hand in hand with expansionist capitalist interests. I hope that Obama will be able to cross the line to a true internationalism, but the US being what it is, I have my doubts that he can prevail against forces beyond his control.

"Even the most benevolent hegemony will encounter justified resentment and, as Dan Kervick pointed out, there's a fine line between hegemony and internationalism. The latter is hard to achieve as long as US foreign policy is partially driven by an aggressive military-industrial complex and democracy promotion goes hand in hand with expansionist capitalist interests. I hope that Obama will be able to cross the line to a true internationalism, but the US being what it is, I have my doubts that he can prevail against forces beyond his control.

Posted by novakant | May 25, 2008 6:02 AM"

Good point. However, one also has to read this keeping in mind Obama's previously-stated preference for "dignity promotion" over "democracy promotion," which can be read as the US helping to an alternative model for people in developing democracies and autocracies to pursue through 1) being a model whose values we don't violate (stopping torture, etc.) and 2) helping with transparency, civil society groups, etc. Obama has also positioned himself to the left of the Clintons on things like the Washington Consensus (ironically based on recent Latin American history, only to be more disastrous in the 1990's in Latin America than almost everywhere else).

In addition, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that in the vacuum of our loss of influence (in part because we have become so toxic to so many Latin Americans and we have become so illiberal as of late that we have made liberal capitalist democracy look hollow), other states like Iran and China have filled that gap. Combining moral arguments with appeals to self-interest are a common form of argument because they are effective. Of course the US under any president (including Nader) would want its influence and power to be as high as possible without creating blowback in just about any region of the world.

Your point about the military-industrial complex being able to undermine a hypothetical president's good intentions is fair. However, while the likes of Boeing and such do play an outsized role in our policy creation, to a certain extent pointing to the military-industrial complex as the villain screwing everything up is looking for someone concrete to blame. While funneling money to Boeing is probably a big reason the GOP is so hawkish, the reactionary nationalism of so many in the GOP base is probably a bigger factor. If only Boeing supported the GOP's foreign policy vision, the GOP would quickly disappear.

However, the right-wing electorate is at this point rabid in the need to kick some brown (often Muslim) ass. A GOP Congressional member in a deep-red district or state who took a more sensible stance would probably be voted out of office even if Boeing wrote them a blank check. If we can figure out how to make this part of the electorate smaller by leaching off some of them with other issues, registering new voters in their districts/states to dilute their influence (unregistered voters in Georgia, especially new Latino citizens, are a potential goldmine to turn that state purple for a while) and so on, it can probably be a lot easier to have a more sensible foreign policy. After all, the most famous example of a dumb policy we have in Latin America - the Cuban embargo - is in place to appeal to Cubans in Florida and New Jersey, not because the military-industrial complex wants it. We get enough voters on our side and keep them engaged and informed, which is part of the appeal of Obama's grassroots movement, and Boeing can only have so much influence.

Reality Man,

Chavez has been pulling programs that are openly traitorous or seditious off the air. Good for him. While he's at it, he has also been trying to reomve pornography and sexually inappropriate advertising. I don't believe that we do have an unfettered right to choose what to watch. Freedom of the press, in a perfect society, would be modulated by the duty not to corrupt the values of society. In this regard I agree with what Che Guevara said in the 1960s when an American journalist asked him about why Cuba didn't have free speech. "If your 'freedom of speech' includes the right to call a black man 'n---r', then to hell with your freedom of speech, we don't want it.' Or with what a Cuban folksinger said decades later about free speech. 'No we don't have free speech, for example we don't have the right to glorify pornography, racism, and war, and thank God for that.' Indeed.

Chavez is exactly what the Venezuelan people need right now. I believe that it is literally the hand of Providence that has put him in the seat of power, and that he is legitimized by Something much greater and more important than any 'democratic election.' Let there be two, three, many Chavez.

In other words, Reality Man, it's not Bush who has made liberal capitalist 'democracy' look hollow. It IS hollow. Liberal capitalist democracy is never going to meet the needs of Latin America, because it's based on fundamental falsehoods. That by setting individuals free to pursue their economic and political self interest we can achieve a good result for society as a whole, that all people's political opinions are equally valid and should carry equal weight, that legitimacy ultimately flows from popular elections, that people should be able to accumulate vast fortunes through the ownership of property, that there is no moral difference between property income and labor, that we have an unfettered right to say whatever we want, these are all pernicious lies.

Chavez is not our problem, nor Obama's problem.

He's Venezuela's problem, or maybe its solution...

Who knows?

Why are we worried about Hugo Chavez?

Hector, when you keep on pushing the line we should all be Christians and live in Christian-only societies that are enforced by the state, you are just saying nobody should take your political prescriptions seriously. Your version of political Christianity is hollow. I bet you were happy Che's political camps became a dumping ground for gay people with AIDS because they were engaging in what you determine to be unethical activity that harms society and thus can be removed from society. Also, comparing using the n-word to refer to a black man to a telenovela that might be critical of Chavez (which by itself is not sedition) is downright insulting.

treating Latin Americans as children

Posted by Jennifer | May 24, 2008 4:26 PM

If many Latin Americans possess your infantile mindset, Jennifer, perhaps this isn't so misguided.

Reality Man,

So you agree that the State should prohibit use of the N-word. Very good. So do I. You've already acknowledged that the state can limit the right to free speech. I would just draw the line in a different place than you, and would (in a state like Venezuela) prohibit sedition, pornography and other assaults on public morals as well.

Those telenovelas were produced by a parasitic and predatory social group that is characterized by untramelled greed, contempt for the people and insane hatred towards those who would try and take away their privileges. They have shown that they will stop at nothing to hold on to their wealth and privileges- assassination, mutiny, secession, lying, fraud, extortion. They cannot be trusted and need to be stripped of all influence in the halls of power- in the media, the courts, the economy, and in the political arena.

WHile I don't support everything the Cuban regime has done, by a long shot, I do support their mandatory hospitalization of AIDS patients. That policy saved millions of lives, and saved many people from themselves. It is endorsed by eminent American intellectuals like Paul Farmer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_farmer
and Nancy Scheper-Hughes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Scheper-Hughes. (Both Catholic Christians by the way). Perhaps you know more about human rights than either of these two people, but I doubt it.

Hector:

You are seriously scary. Despite my agnosticism, I thank God that you only represent the smallest of wacko fringe groups, like vegetarian neoNazis, or rational Hillary Clinton supporters.

Hector, did I say that I support criminalizing the use of racial slurs? I don't like it and I think we should legally recognize the idea of "fighting words," (if you call someone a racial slur and they beat your ass, that's your own damn fault), but I don't like the idea of police going around arresting people for saying bad things. I don't agree with flag-burning, but I would be pissed if we criminalized that.

"Those telenovelas were produced by a parasitic and predatory social group that is characterized by untramelled greed, contempt for the people and insane hatred towards those who would try and take away their privileges. They have shown that they will stop at nothing to hold on to their wealth and privileges- assassination, mutiny, secession, lying, fraud, extortion. They cannot be trusted and need to be stripped of all influence in the halls of power- in the media, the courts, the economy, and in the political arena."

I'm no fan of the Venezuelan right either, but when you criminalize airing soap operas just because you don't like the political values therein, you in effect end up making them (for lack of a better term) "martyrs." We're talking about soap operas here. I don't like the values in movies like "Saw" and "Hostel" and don't get why anyone would enjoy this new torture porn fad in movies, but I'm not so insecure I feel the need to ban everything I don't like. I don't agree with Frank Miller's values, yet I enjoyed "Sin City," just as I disagree with the Chinese government's views yet enjoyed Zhang Yimou's "Hero." In addition, banning things doesn't make them go away. Just the other day here in Beijing I was in a mainstream counterfeit DVD shop that was selling "Striptease," "Showgirls" and some Jenna Jameson porno next to copies of "Happy Feet," "Shrek" and (the banned in China) "Over the Hedge."

Just because you are so sure your way of life is the right one doesn't mean anyone else has to respect it. The fact that you want to force it on others is just plain creepy. I highly doubt that if Jesus was real and returned, he would waste his time going around banning porn and telenovelas.

Reality Man,

I have no idea exactly what happens when Jesus returns. But we have been told, in St. John's Apocalypse, that it will involve a hell of a lot of war, bloodshed, and destruction, and that he that sits upon a white horse shall 'rule the nations with a rod of iron'. It seems to me that banning porn and telenovelas would be among the LEAST of it.

It is quite possible, in fact pretty necessary, to always try to look at Venezuelan politics in some sort of perspective, and to realize that the citizenry there make their political choices within the bounds of what actual choices they are presented -- and not some fantasy roster of what they might prefer.

So, for example, in almost all major elections recently (and a narrow loss in the really stupid giganto-referendum move) they have chosen to back Hugo Chavez and allied political movements over their alternatives.

It doesn't mean that Venezuelan citizens are therefore all lining up behind a 'Chavez is a flawless leader bringing us a socialist paradise' and 'Chavez is plunging us into a Communist hell'.

So far the opposition has offered a pretty cruddy, revanchist platform that has not appealed to the majority, and it's not surprising given the extremely elite right wing group which makes it up.

Back to the context of Obama's speech, which was so important Matt printed it twice in a row, the fact that the United States' typically crappy and hostile interventionism throughout Latin America has been distracted by the Bush Jr regime's destruction of Iraq has overall been a good thing for the entire region.

It has led to a degree of independence which is quite unprecedented, and which the U.S. foreign policy establishment will have a real problem reversing, even if its typically preferred right wing market fundamentalist douchebags get back in power. At some point, even the nationalist right wing business leaders throughout Latin America got tired of giving up all prospects of some sort of decent national development.

BTW, is this the same Jennifer which usually only appears in conjunction with Chris Ford post and which usually involves repetition of the word "scummy" or "scumbag" and the like? Sure is odd, that.

Hugo Chavez came to power during the Clinton Administration, and was first elected President of Venezuela in 1998, two years before the Bush Administration took office.

Richard1: That is correct, but in the old days, over time the U.S. would have poured prodigious energies into reversing any leftist or independent liberal advance -- such as they did by supporting the Chamber of Commerce coup against Chavez. Had the coup succeeded, things would be greatly different, but maybe not entirely opposite.

Perhaps an equal, if not larger development, was Argentina walking away from running its economy as U.S. and Western advisers demanded via the IMF loan and restructuring programs. And that took place after Clinton.

The transition in Brazil from Hernando Enrique Cardoso to Luis Inacio "Lula" da Silva also took place under Bush, as did the elections of Rafael Correa and Evo Morales. Chile's Lagos won at the last years of the Clinton presidency, but was also succeeded by a liberal reformist in Bachelet.

Colombia is a huge exception, but the lessons and impacts are hard to predict -- as you may have a permanent institutionalized and popular enshrinement of Uribe if he ends up finally breaking the FARC, while the judiciary and political parties are completely re-working the political system Uribe founded by founding the support of his coalition with the narco-paramilitary death squads.

The U.S. support of separatist movements, first in Bolivia and soon in Venezuela, are one attempt to try and return the paths of government to the style to which the U.S. prefers.

Yet even with leading conservative governments (i.e., Colombia and Mexico), there is a degree of political and economic independence that has been noted by scholars and observers all over the political spectrum.

PS: The FARC now confirms that Manuel "Tirofijo" Marulanda is now dead -- though they claim it was from a heart attack, not any Colombian military assault.

http://www.elespectador.com/noticias/judicial/articulo-farc-admiten-muerte-de-tirofijo

Hector wants the "good ol' days" back when the Pope had armies and could torture people and burn them at the stake.

Hector deserves a bullet in the brain pan - where it would rattle around a lot since there is no brain in the brain pan.

Wow I actually agree with the Hack man. Hector is a pretty frightening individual.

Well, Hack, at least I have enough brains (and morals) not to commit armed robbery. How was Leavenworth, by the way?

Wow I actually agree with the Hack man. Hector is a pretty frightening individual

"Pretty frightening"? The guy is a certifiable freakin' WACKO. He sees himself as "moral" and "just" when actually he comes across as a repressed little Mama's boy with serious anal retentive issues. Hector, we know you're a loser who obviously has complicated issues you can't deal with. You have a modicum of our sympathy.


Comments closed June 07, 2008.

Copyright © 2008 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.