John McCain doesn't seem to realize that there hasn't been a country called "Czechoslovakia" for about fifteen years. One wag joked to me that we should cut him some slack since "When he was studying geography, the place was called Bohemia." In fact, however, the Czech Republic is to this day composed of two provinces, one of which is Bohemia and the other is Moravia.
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07 May 2008 09:09 am
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In fact, however, the Czech Republic is to this day composed of two provinces, one of which is Bohemia and the other is Moravia.
The internal divisions of the Czech Republic are called kraje ("regions") and there are 13 of them plus the capital city.
It is true that the CR is comprised of historic Bohemia and Moravia, but there is also a piece of Silesia.
I storngly disagree with Jake: obviously, nothing could possibly be more important to American liberals at this point in time than proper understanding of Czech geography and internal politics.
-- Senator, don't you think this decision runs the risk of simply antagonising the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Can we afford this in view of the threat posed by the Kaiser to peace in Mittel Europa?
-- Senator, doesn't this run counter to our existing treaty obligations with His Majesty the Tsar of all the Russias?
-- Senator, the Brookings Institution has released a study saying that the missile defense program will cost approximately 300 thousand golden ducats, and will do nothing to deter aggression by the Horde of Subotai Khan. Any comment on that?
-- O Senator senilis! Cur nescitis scutagium contratelicum nimis carum inutilisque esse?
"One wag"? C'mon, it's a good joke -- give credit. Didn't you get all pissy when someone called Ann Friedman "one blogger"?
I'm sorry Matt - I think blurting out "Czechoslovakia" is forgivable for anyone over 40. If you say it over and over again, then you may have an issue but old habits die hard, it doesn't prove McCain is ignorant, just old.
And you're correct, that unnamed wag is insulting Moravians everywhere. Calling the Czech Republic "Bohemia" would arguably be worse than calling it Czechoslovakia.
Hey, he didn't call it Great Moravia, did he?
"One wag" is a lot more old-fashioned than "Czechoslovakia".
McCain raises a good point, though. A defense system in Czechoslovakia would be an important counterweight to the growing missile threat from the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
I think that The Economist joked, many years ago, that since The Czech Republic was awkward to say, not only would changing the country's name to "Bohemia" sound better, but there was really no better name for a country whose president (at the time) was a chain smoking playwright.
This atlas must be out of date. It doesn't have Siam or the Ottoman Empire!
So I guess McCain is trying to be a little less Abraham Simpson and a little more Mr. Burns.
Maybe it's part of a subliminal strategy with white ethnic voters. All the old timers where I used to live were Slovenians, and they still recall everyone being referred to as "Austrians" because that's what Slovenia was a part of until 1919.
Matt, how many Americans actually know or even care about the differences between Czechoslovakia and the Czech Republic?
It could get a bit touchy at least on the gaffe-o-meter. The sub-unit identities are powerful, and that's what our planet's nation states are getting down to. One of my Slovenian friends points out to me that "to us, there was absolutely no such thing as Yugoslavia. It was dead to us."
Isn't the question, how many Americans expect their President to know the differences? It's obviously not the most important thing in the world, but given that the President is supposed to be our foreign policy head, I suspect most Americans think it's at least a good thing for him/her to be able to tell one country from another.
The man is showing signs of an incipient senile dementia. It's about time that the MSM acknowledged that.
Matt, how many Americans actually know or even care about the differences between Czechoslovakia and the Czech Republic?
Well, I'm sure that, sadly, most Americans could care less, but don't you think the Czechs and the Slovaks have some legitimate interest in McCain knowing the difference, especially if he wants to install a missile defense system there?
Prague is beautiful.
Also, at this point can we start referring to McCain as the "scourge of Moldavia, sorrow of Carpathia," etc?
It's 3 AM in the White House. Riiiiing, riiing.
"Mr. President, it's the President of the Czech Republic on the line. Because they've placed silos for the US missile shield, Germany has declared an economic embargo, and Russian troops are threatening to invade!"
"Czech Republic? Never heard of it. Probably a prank call. Have Bobby Jindal handle it, and I'll follow up in the morning after my prune juice."
I'm more than willing to give regular people a pass on this kind of mistake. Seriously, how often do the finer points of Eastern European diplomacy come up in their jobs?
But I'm sorry, when you're running as the experienced hand on foreign policy, you should have paid enough attention over the last 15 years to have picked up on this name change! In post-Soviet bloc annals, the peaceful partition of Czechoslovakia was incredibly important, and anyone who cared about winning the Cold War should have been paying close attention to that.
And it's flatly ridiculous to make this mistake when you're talking about the missile shield. Right now, the Czech Republic appears nearly committed to signing a deal where they would be part of the US Missile shield plan. Slovakia, on the other hand, has been outspoken in its total rejection of the missile shield, and they're really repeating Russia's talking points on this issue. In February a Slovakian ex-premier went on the record about how this is going to start a cold war!
I could see where you might make a mistake and talk about Czechosolvakia in the context of economic growth--since the Velvet Divorce, both of the successor countries have had high-growth economies. But in the context of a missile shield--where each of these countries has a position diametrically opposed to the other--how could you possibly talk about Czechoslovakia?
And this is the same guy who doesn't understand the difference between Sunnis and Shiites and who we're fighting in Iraq. He's another un-serious student like Bush--the only real difference between them is that McCain, to his credit, was willing to put his money where his mouth was and actually fight in the totally misguided war that he supported. That means I respect him. But it doesn't mean I want him picking which war we fight next. Because he clearly hasn't paid enough attention to what's going on to make a smart strategic decision.
You are all being completely ridiculous. I have an MA in Central European Studies, I've worked in the Czech Republic and I can speak basic Czech. I know how the Silesian dialect in Ostrava differs from the Prague dialect, I've read Kundera and Hrabal, I can tell you all about Jan Hus, I like knedliky and svickova. Hell, I'm sure I know more about the Czechs than 99% of Americans. But because I spent the first 25 formative years of my life saying "Czechoslovakia", even I will on occasion slip up and say "Czechoslovakia" when I mean "Czech Republic". Of all the myriad things to attack McCain on, this is just unserious.
To be fair, Matt, there isn't any distinction in the Czech language between "Bohemian" and "Czech". They're both 'český'
Ah, senility. I'll bet McCain breaks out a "Soviet Union" rather than "Russia" from time to time also.
It's not quite as moronic as being unaware that Canada has a Prime Minister rather than a President - which Barack Obama is apparently unaware of. But it's getting up there.
vanya is right. Bush proved you don't need to know anything about foreign countries to have a big strong manly foreign policy that puts the world on notice and further proves America is #1. Czechs will respond to whatever McCain wants to call their little country because he takes no guff and says it like it is.
The kingdom of Bohemia consisted for most of its existence of the provinces of historical provinces of Bohemia and Moravia.
I can't wait for McCain to address Japanese-American relations: "The Japanese? Those sandal-wearing goldfish tenders? Ha ha! Bosh! Flimflaw!"
Can't we have someone smart, who knows what they're talking about, in the White House for once? Please?
The kingdom of Bohemia consisted for most of its existence of the provinces of historical provinces of Bohemia and Moravia.
scourge of Moldavia, sorrow of Carpathia
Sung to the tune of "Biko" by Peter Gabriel
Only one way for McCain to get on top of this story -- schedule a photo-op slivovitz-with-a-Pilsner-Urquell-chaser event.
And with Condi Rice on the ticket constantly calling Russia "Soviet Union", it''ll be perfect.
They can stay stuck in Cold War Fantasy Land forever.
But because I spent the first 25 formative years of my life saying "Czechoslovakia", even I will on occasion slip up and say "Czechoslovakia" when I mean "Czech Republic". Of all the myriad things to attack McCain on, this is just unserious.
I'm with vanya. I still make this mistake all the time, and my 17-year old son has to correct me. If it can be shown that McCain has foolish of ignorant ideas about the Czech Republic or Slovakia, that is worth pointing out. But tittering about some difficulty in breaking the linguistic habits of a lifetime is childish and unserious.
Also, further to the above, Obama seems to think that Roosevelt negotiated with Hitler and Tojo. Ooooops!
Maybe someone should inform Obama that Roosevelt pursued a George W. Bush-ian strategy in WWII, and did not negotiate with Hitler.
Calling the place Czechoslovakia is no more anachronistic than calling smartasses "wags."
Calling the place Czechoslovakia is no more anachronistic than calling smartasses "wags."
Calling the place Czechoslovakia is no more anachronistic than calling smartasses "wags."
Collectively, Bohemia and Moravia formed the Kingdom of Bohemia, an integral part of the Holy Roman Empire, and subsequently the Austrian (Austro-Hungarian after 1867). I forget now the sequence of marriages and wars which unified the major parts of the empire (other than Germany except in a nominal way) and placed a Swiss family (well, the Habsburgs were, originally) on the throne. Something about the Jagellons and Hungary, I believe.
Anyway, Prague is a great city and wonderful for walking. The beer is quite good too.
I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian consulate in Siam by aeromail. Am I too late for the 4:30 autogyro?
It’s seems like just yesterday the Archduke Ferdinand was driving peacefully through the streets of Sarajevo, where has the time gone.
Much as I'd like to get the name right, I worry more about someone who wants to further his militarist boondoggle there. Unlike in Iraq, he may even know who the players are. He just wants to use them to waste our money and threaten others.
The difference between vanya, dan and McCain is, that, as far as I know, only the latter is running for president and wants to install a missile defense shield in the Czech Republic.
Come on, they've been completely separate and sovereign countries for 15 years now - do you still consider Eritrea part of Ethiopia or East Timor part of Indonesia?
"Collectively, Bohemia and Moravia formed the Kingdom of Bohemia, an integral part of the Holy Roman Empire, and subsequently the Austrian (Austro-Hungarian after 1867). I forget now the sequence of marriages and wars which unified the major parts of the empire (other than Germany except in a nominal way) and placed a Swiss family (well, the Habsburgs were, originally) on the throne. Something about the Jagellons and Hungary, I believe."
The Hapsburgs' ancient castle was in what is now in Switzerland, but that wasn't Switzerland at that point (there was no Switzerland then or for a couple centuries afterwards). It was then part of the duchy of Swabia, an administrative unit of the Carolingians and the Hohenstaufens. Numerous other families also came from Swabia, including the Hohenzollerns.
Essentially, the old ruling house of Bohemia died out (the Luxemburgs) with the sole remaining female heir married to the Hapsburgs. The Hussite civil war happens and the Hussites crown a Hussite noble and the Catholics crown first Matthias Corvinus and then the Jagellonians. The country is effectively in a long civil war and run by a chaotic combination of local nobility, city-states, warlords and Turkish invaders. The Jagellonian Louis II gets killed by the Turks in the Battle of Mohacs (1526) and has no descendants. The old hereditary claim of the Hapsburgs is then revived, as well as the Hapsburgs being the great remaining standard-bearers of Catholicism in Central Europe on top of being the only force strong enough to resist the Turkish invasion. Ferdinand I eventually conclusively defeats the Bohemian estates in 1547, and the Hapsburg control of the country is quite solid until the mid nineteenth century.
"Collectively, Bohemia and Moravia formed the Kingdom of Bohemia, an integral part of the Holy Roman Empire, and subsequently the Austrian (Austro-Hungarian after 1867). I forget now the sequence of marriages and wars which unified the major parts of the empire (other than Germany except in a nominal way) and placed a Swiss family (well, the Habsburgs were, originally) on the throne. Something about the Jagellons and Hungary, I believe."
The Hapsburgs' ancient castle was in what is now in Switzerland, but that wasn't Switzerland at that point (there was no Switzerland then or for a couple centuries afterwards). It was then part of the duchy of Swabia, an administrative unit of the Carolingians and the Hohenstaufens. Numerous other families also came from Swabia, including the Hohenzollerns.
Essentially, the old ruling house of Bohemia died out (the Luxemburgs) with the sole remaining female heir married to the Hapsburgs. The Hussite civil war happens and the Hussites crown a Hussite noble and the Catholics crown first Matthias Corvinus and then the Jagellonians. The country is effectively in a long civil war and run by a chaotic combination of local nobility, city-states, warlords and Turkish invaders. The Jagellonian Louis II gets killed by the Turks in the Battle of Mohacs (1526) and has no descendants. The old hereditary claim of the Hapsburgs is then revived, as well as the Hapsburgs being the great remaining standard-bearers of Catholicism in Central Europe on top of being the only force strong enough to resist the Turkish invasion. Ferdinand I eventually conclusively defeats the Bohemian estates in 1547, and the Hapsburg control of the country is quite solid until the mid nineteenth century.
Come on, they've been completely separate and sovereign countries for 15 years now - do you still consider Eritrea part of Ethiopia or East Timor part of Indonesia?
Novakant, don't be so thick. I'm well aware that the Czech Republic is a sovereign country, and quite different from Slovakia. As I pointed out, I worked there (last year), I can read and speak the language, I know the history of the place. I'm sure Dan is well aware that they are separate countries, and I bet McCain is too. It's just the sound correspondence and years of habit that leads older people to slip up. I never would say Czechoslovakia for Slovakia or Yugoslavia for Serbia. If Serbia was called "The Yugo Republic" than I probably would slip up from time to time. Only smug 20 year olds can really believe that a slip of the tongue implies ignorance.
Come on, they've been completely separate and sovereign countries for 15 years now - do you still consider Eritrea part of Ethiopia or East Timor part of Indonesia?
Novakant, don't be so thick. I'm well aware that the Czech Republic is a sovereign country, and quite different from Slovakia. As I pointed out, I worked there (last year), I can read and speak the language, I know the history of the place. I'm sure Dan is well aware that they are separate countries, and I bet McCain is too. It's just the sound correspondence and years of habit that leads older people to slip up. I never would say Czechoslovakia for Slovakia or Yugoslavia for Serbia. If Serbia was called "The Yugo Republic" than I probably would slip up from time to time. Only smug 20 year olds can really believe that a slip of the tongue implies ignorance.
Someone with such an amount of historical knowledge should know that it's Habsburg, not Hapsburg. Or is that an American thing? I've read it a few times now on the Interwebs.
"Hapsburg" and "Habsburg" both appear in a comment above. And both are, apparently, correct. What I want to know is when "Habsburg" appeared in English? Was it around the time of pristine pronunciations of Italian and Spanish names showed up on radio?
Think of it this way: if more Americans knew about a country where the poorer regions demanded independence, and the richer bits said 'okay, fine, off you go', it might have certain, er, implications.
Will Czechoslovakia join the new League of Nations?
I'm well aware that the Czech Republic is a sovereign country, and quite different from Slovakia.
Vanya, I'm aware that you're aware of that - but McCain is a politician promoting some major policy shift (missile defense) in the region and it's not too much to ask that he get his terminology right, especially since he is perpetuating ignorance by mixing these things up in public. Some older people still speak of "Ceylon" and "Rhodesia" and most of us would consider that rather ignorant - how long exactly do you think such a change should be allowed to sink in?
"When he was studying geography, the place was called Bohemia."
It's a scandal!
But McCain is a politician promoting some major policy shift (missile defense) in the region and it's not too much to ask that he get his terminology right, especially since he is perpetuating ignorance by mixing these things up in public.
Yes, that is a reasonable point, novakant. A president is the face of US foreign policy and diplomacy, and should therefore get the names of foreign countries right. The problem was that Matt said, "John McCain doesn't seem to realize that there hasn't been a country called "Czechoslovakia" for about fifteen years." That claim is almost certainly false, and seems a bit frivolous, and an agist cheap shot.
Cut him some slack guys, I'm pretty sure he meant Yugoslavia.
Cut him some slack guys, I'm pretty sure he meant Yugoslavia.
"Hapsburg" vs "Habsburg" wait, there's more: Prague, Prag or Praha? Bratislava, Pozsony, or Pressburg? Lemberg, Lviv, Lvov? (actually, the Austrian terms are seldom if ever used any more). Gosh, it's been years. Probably Setton-Watson did the most to change the spelling; "Habsburg" is generally preferred now.
Central and Eastern Europe have multiple spellings for the same location - often some or all were in use at the same time. Cannot be sure whether "Hapsburg" originated with the French, the British or others.
and thanks to burritoboy for the rundown!!!
Obama seems to think that Roosevelt negotiated with Hitler and Tojo.
Nice try, Al.
First, Obama didn't say "Franklin" Roosevelt, so you're assuming that's who he meant.
Second, even if that's the correct assumption, Obama also referenced neither Hitler nor Tojo -- just "our enemies". FDR negotiated with our enemies the Soviets, even to the point of forming a four-year alliance of convenience with them. (Which, incidentally, would explain his mentioning Roosevelt in the same breath as Kennedy and Truman, who also negotiated with the Soviets.)
But you knew that, and as usual are just being deliberately obtuse. (Really, if you don't want it to be so obvious, you might stop beginning half of your comments with "Huh?")
Congrats, though, on sending me scurrying to the Obama speech, which I hadn't heard. It's a good speech.
"Hapsburg" vs "Habsburg" wait, there's more: Prague, Prag or Praha? Bratislava, Pozsony, or Pressburg? Lemberg, Lviv, Lvov? (actually, the Austrian terms are seldom if ever used any more). Gosh, it's been years. Probably Setton-Watson did the most to change the spelling; "Habsburg" is generally preferred now.
Central and Eastern Europe have multiple spellings for the same location - often some or all were in use at the same time. Cannot be sure whether "Hapsburg" originated with the French, the British or others.
and thanks to burritoboy for the rundown!!!
"Hapsburg" vs "Habsburg" wait, there's more: Prague, Prag or Praha? Bratislava, Pozsony, or Pressburg? Lemberg, Lviv, Lvov? (actually, the Austrian terms are seldom if ever used any more). Gosh, it's been years. Probably Setton-Watson did the most to change the spelling; "Habsburg" is generally preferred now.
Central and Eastern Europe have multiple spellings for the same location - often some or all were in use at the same time. Cannot be sure whether "Hapsburg" originated with the French, the British or others.
and thanks to burritoboy for the rundown!!!
It's my own fault, really, that I followed an AI link.
AI, you're such a disingenuous douchebag. You make me stupider every time you post, whether I read the post or not.
The problem was that Matt said, "John McCain doesn't seem to realize that there hasn't been a country called "Czechoslovakia" for about fifteen years." That claim is almost certainly false
Let's hope so ;).
Well, from March 15, 1939 (when McCain was 2 years old) to May 13, 1945 (when McCain was 8 years old and no doubt busy learning geography) it was called The Protectorate_of_Bohemia_and_Moravia. Right?
Well, from March 15, 1939 (when McCain was 2 years old) to May 13, 1945 (when McCain was 8 years old and no doubt busy learning geography) it was called The Protectorate_of_Bohemia_and_Moravia. Right?
FDR negotiated with our enemies the Soviets, even to the point of forming a four-year alliance of convenience with them.
The Soviets were our enemies before 1945? Who knew?!
"Maybe someone should inform Obama that Roosevelt pursued a George W. Bush-ian strategy in WWII, and did not negotiate with Hitler."
Ryan already did a fine job of bringing down the ox but let me dish out the coup de grace.
FDR's strategy was nothing like "W"'s. FDR prepared for war but didn't start one. He waited until the Third Reich declared war on America. The WH was actually worried about how they could possibly fight Germany unless they (Germany) attacked or issued a declaration of war. It was a nerve-wracking few days in between Pear Harbor and Hitler's Reichstag speech declaring war on America.
The Soviets were our enemies before 1945? Who knew?!
Aw c'mon Al, no "Huh?" You disappoint me.
Hmm, let's see... US and allies intervene with troops to try to topple the Bolsheviks in 1918... US refuses to recognize Soviet government until 1933... Soviet alliance with Hitler 1939-41... Soviet spying on the American atomic program before 1945...
I'm afraid you're off the GOP reservation on this one, Al, and they might no let you back on. If you'd asked any Republican in the prewar Roosevelt years whether the Communists were enemies of America they'd have said yes. And yet even some of them were willing to go along with FDR to do deals with them for mutual advantage. I guess they were just pussies when it came to standing up to dictators, right?
"The Soviets were our enemies before 1945? Who knew?!"
Smart people, then and now.
Oops, after hearing McCain's "League of Nations" reference, I realize that novakant was right. Probably not a slip of tongue, McCain really is out to lunch.
I wonder if he's going to pick Fred Thompson as VP so they can gang up on Czechoslovakia and the USSR. You know, where all the Shii'tes, er Sunnis, er Kurds, whoever they fuck they are, are.
"Someone with such an amount of historical knowledge should know that it's Habsburg, not Hapsburg."
Stop being a prat. Either spelling is acceptable in an Anglo-American context. Anyone from Central Europe (as I am myself) is well aware that spellings vary all over the place. My family's traditional hometown has at least two equally commonly accepted spellings and is about 20 miles from Lviv/Lvov/Lwow/Lemberg.
"The Soviets were our enemies before 1945? Who knew?!"
You're unaware that the Americans and Brits had an army (north of 11,000 troops) fighting the Bolsheviks for almost an entire year? Nearly two hundred American soldiers died during the fighting. The Americans also had an extensive espionage effort (which they wisely kept under wraps unlike the British flameout with Lockhart) against the Bolsheviks in Moscow and St. Petersburg during the 1918-1919 period. The US refused to recognize the USSR until 1933.
The Soviets were our enemies before 1945? Who knew?!
The much-maligned Woodrow Wilson. Why forget the little American invasion of Russia? (I wonder why that's not taught in schools.)
I'm with Vanya. We are just talking about missiles that will be pointed at Russia. McCain doesn't know where exactly we will put them and people are acting like the exact location is important. I'm sure McCain's lack of knowledge is no reflection of the time he has invested in the issue.
OTOH, when combined with the remark that Americans won't pick lettuce for $50/hour and the stubborn refusal to learn the difference between Shia and Sunni, (which will probably be important in resolving the conflicts), has McCain said anything coherent in the last three months?
Comments closed May 21, 2008.
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Heads in the Sand
Sorry to hijack Matt, but you need to grab some coffee (or caffeinated beverage of choice) ASAP.
Drudge is reporting that HRC loaned her campaign 6.4M over the past month, and will loan more to continue.
Steph said the Obama campaign will roll out superdels in bunches soon to lock up the nomination.
Get on it man!
Posted by Jake | May 7, 2008 9:28 AM