« If You Build It | Main | The Colombia Scenario » Rove on Stress Positions01 May 2008 11:28 am Great catch by Jon Chait: Rove writes, "Another McCain story, somewhat better known, is about the Vietnamese practice of torturing him by tying his head between his ankles with his arms behind him, and then leaving him for hours." So, wait, now putting prisoners in stress positions is torture? I was going to say "it's funny because it's true" but it's really not all that funny that we now torture people as a matter of policy in the United States. Comments (36)
It must be difficult for these guys to keep all their BS consistent. So much of their agenda & talking points is not just internally inconsistent but literally contradictory. Of course, as Atrios explains, we can solve this one simply by noting that, when *we* do this, of course it's OK b/c we're the "good guys." The Viet Cong, however, were definitely bad guys. So when they did it, of course it was torture. 
We know the effect of torture on the tortured...Pain! But, what is the effect on the person doing the torturing? I wonder does it screw them up? I mean, more then they already are!
I don't think the U.S. public can grasp the concept they've elected a torturing genocidal sociopath as their President. Must be like getting a phone call from the local police, your kid is in jail for robbing a bank. What?! Not my kid! You're nuts! A discussion of meting out justice to Bush and his assorted henchmen goes nowhere, with anyone. You're received as some sort of trouble making heretic. Putting him in the docket at The Hague is so alien a notion you might as well be spouting off about string theory. Nevertheless Bush should hang. Were he leading another nation and wrecking the sort of havoc and mayhem we see now he'd be hunted down and tried for his crimes. Sort of like we did with Saddam. No, exactly like we did with Saddam.
steve duncan, exactly so. You know, right after we won WWII, we put some of our former enemies to death for doing what we're doing right now. This does not even cause the deserting coward or his master, the Dark Lord Cheney, to so much as blink. They've mastered the principles of INGSOC, they have.
Had a long conversation with a good friend just a couple nights back (we were consoling one another about the latest in a long, long string of Phoenix Suns' playoff collapses) who is in the military, served a four-year stint at the Pentagon doing very hush-hush long-range strategic planning with some very high-up brass, even was in Rummy's office a few times. He's pretty disgusted with the torture thing. "If we're going to preach to other nations - and America can get pretty preachy at times - then we absolutely have to maintain the moral high ground, or else why would anyone listen to us? Besides, torturing detainees and prisoners puts all of our troops in jeopardy of being tortured themselves should they be captured." That kind of talk will get you branded a coward and a capitulator to islamofascists, in certain circles...
We don't torture because we are Americans. And what Americans do is good for the world. And so pursuing those ends is God's will for the world. And God's will is not to torture, so we don't torture. It is not torture because it is us doing the interrogations, and we would never torture.
To back up Reader's point, Giuliani also claimed that whether or not something is torture depends on the circumstances and on who is doing it. Yoo also made several variations on this argument, including the laughable "self defense" argument.
I'm sorry, I fail to see how this reflects poorly on Sen Clinton. What is this, HillaryClinton.com, or something?
Waiting for Al or someone to argue that *that particular* stress position is not currently used by the US military, so no, Rove isn't conceding that we torture...
Steve Duncan, I agree wholeheartedly with your post except that part about how Bush should hang. We are more civilized than we were in Nuremburg days... or to be more precise, those of us who consider ourselves civilized, are more civilized than those who considered themselves civilized 60 years ago. We don't execute war criminals any longer. I'd be content with Bush rotting away in a prison cell for the rest of his life.
In defense of Rove, he did not vote for the Military Commissions Act. John McCain did. So Rove can apply the 'torture' label to stress positions. John McCain, however, can never claim he was tortured because he voted to define his treatment as not being torture. Not that the media would call him on it, of course.
Waiting for Al or someone to argue that *that particular* stress position is not currently used by the US military Maybe he knows that's called a "short shackle" and it *is* something we admit to.
Renato, I agree capital punishment is something that on many levels is repugnant. I think murderers deserve life in prison instead if for no other reason than sometimes mistakes are made during trial. However, when murder is conducted on such a grand scale as that committed by Bush my aversion and qualms evaporate. One life ideally is worth as much as 1000. Murder is murder. Should I want a man to pay with his life for killing either sum? Well, equal treatment is the goal. The man in jail for killing my neighbor is not a good person. That said his level of evil is exceeded several magnitudes by George Bush. I'd turn my head if the door dropped under Dubya, though I'd still listen for he snap of his neck. Vengeance soils all parties involved. I'd live with my share of the dirt on my soul.
Ed,
So, he's complaining because the enemy interrogated him? What did he expect?
So, he's complaining because the enemy interrogated him? What did he expect?
No thugs in our house, are there dear?
Steve Duncan, I agree with Renato and find capital punishment as nothing more then revenge. Adolf Hitler was afraid, no, terribly afraid, of being caught by the Allies and put on trial and then, Hitler thought, being displayed as some type of circus freak. And I believe that Kurt Vonnegut had a interesting viewpoint: instead of capital punishment for war criminals, put the war criminal on display and open it up daily to the public who would be free to taunt and otherwise verbally harangue the war criminal. On special ocassions, the war criminal would have to face a jury and go through the whole process of a trial, just to make sure that history doesn't get revised. It is my feeling that this would be the most terrifying thing for arrogant and pyschopaths like Bush and Cheney.
Torture is a matter of policy, but we only torture terrorists and those who look like terrorists and those who aid and abet terrorists and those who look like they could or would aid and abet terrorists--so a small group. And torturing terrorists is like committing a crime against subhumanity: it doesn't count.
death is the easy way out for such people, Steve Duncan. Having to live day after day, alone in a prison cell with only one's thoughts and (perhaps) regrets over the things one did which got one to where he/she is... that's far worse than death as far as I am concerned.
Rove writes, "Another McCain story, somewhat better known, is about the Vietnamese practice of torturing him by tying his head between his ankles with his arms behind him, and then leaving him for hours." Shouldn't that be "the Vietnamese method of aggressively interrogating him"?
No Stefan, I think you have your quasi-fascist lingo wrong. It should read "the Vietnamese practice of enhanced interrogation techniques I think that was the preferred nomenclature, dude. But I may also be wrong. It's hard to keep up.
The Vietcong wore black so obviously they were the bad guys. Besides, maybe McCain didn't tell the truth when he sang like a bird and cried like a little girl. Oh wait. That would mean torture isn't effective. So he must of spilled the real beans. Traitor.
The Vietcong wore black so obviously they were the bad guys. Besides, maybe McCain didn't tell the truth when he sang like a bird and cried like a little girl. Oh wait. That would mean torture isn't effective. So he must of spilled the real beans. Traitor.
Hey Maybe we should consider torture warrants? Don't be silly, Torture is amoral , counter productive , nominally only useful to cow civilians in Totalitarian Terror States, produces lousy Intel and is illegal , but if we HAVE to , what if there's a bomb under LA? That's ridiculous and sophist...Mr president? We Don't Torture...Mr Yoo ? The president can torture anyone he likes, it's fine ...Mr President? Yeah, but we don't..Mr Attorney General? It isn't torture unless it hurts as bad as a burst kidney or just before you die...Who told you that ? Mr Yoo...but I agree with it ...Mr President? We Don't Torture ...Oh no , Abu Garib! Mr. President? that wasn't US, that was some Looney tune soldiers out of control. Mr. Limbaugh? That wasn't torture , that was a frat hazing...Mr Attorney Gen? Were any kidneys burst?Oh no !Black Sites!Mr. President? We Don't Torture...Mr Attorney General? What black sites? any Kidneys Burst that you know of ? Oh No !Enhanced interrogation Approved at the Highest levels of the Government!Mr Yoo? they told me to say that ...Who?The Presidents Baby Sitters...I mean his elves...oh you know , Rice and that bunch...who asked them to ask you ? Mr Yoo? The President...Mr President, did you approve the torture we now use? You're goddamn right I did ! Well, finally that's settled....
Hey Maybe we should consider torture warrants? Don't be silly, Torture is amoral , counter productive , nominally only useful to cow civilians in Totalitarian Terror States, produces lousy Intel and is illegal , but if we HAVE to , what if there's a bomb under LA? That's ridiculous and sophist...Mr president? We Don't Torture...Mr Yoo ? The president can torture anyone he likes, it's fine ...Mr President? Yeah, but we don't..Mr Attorney General? It isn't torture unless it hurts as bad as a burst kidney or just before you die...Who told you that ? Mr Yoo...but I agree with it ...Mr President? We Don't Torture ...Oh no , Abu Garib! Mr. President? that wasn't US, that was some Looney tune soldiers out of control. Mr. Limbaugh? That wasn't torture , that was a frat hazing...Mr Attorney Gen? Were any kidneys burst?Oh no !Black Sites!Mr. President? We Don't Torture...Mr Attorney General? What black sites? any Kidneys Burst that you know of ? Oh No !Enhanced interrogation Approved at the Highest levels of the Government!Mr Yoo? they told me to say that ...Who?The Presidents Baby Sitters...I mean his elves...oh you know , Rice and that bunch...who asked them to ask you ? Mr Yoo? The President...Mr President, did you approve the torture we now use? You're goddamn right I did ! Well, finally that's settled....
steve duncan - Re: "I don't think the U.S. public can grasp the concept they've elected a torturing genocidal sociopath as their President." Nit-pick: They didn't elect him. Nino and his homies (homeys?) did. And Ken Blackwell re-upped it four years later. Semi-cogent point: OK, maybe it wasn't so cogent ....
steve duncan - Re: "I don't think the U.S. public can grasp the concept they've elected a torturing genocidal sociopath as their President." Nit-pick: They didn't elect him. Nino and his homies (homeys?) did. And Ken Blackwell re-upped it four years later. Semi-cogent point: OK, maybe it wasn't so cogent ....
"The Vietcong wore black so obviously they were the bad guys." The Vietcong didn't wear uniforms, and black is an expensive dye. No doubt some VC wore black, but they probably wore other colors at a greater frequency. The NVA wore black, but they had uniforms.
Oh Jeebus, it looks like a paint-by-number media attempt to mislead the public into believing that Bush is supposedly distance himself from McCain. And where else would you post this flim-flam crap put at the Republican owned TNR? Chait magically produces right on que too, doesn't he? It's all just a little too dramatic for my taste. Another one of those dress-up dolly moves by Bush's brain, intended to declare mission accomplished - yeah right, Bushie hates McCain now - my ass. BUT you know, that when Bushie is as low in polls as Bushie is right now, what does Bush have to lose? Sorry, this BS has gimmick written all over it. I see that Murdock is buying Newsday now, and conservative interest also buy Newsweek, Jeebus, you think sometimes this supposed liberal people are Repug plants or something? At one point TNR was really in big financial trouble and the Mag regroup but for so unknow reason kept all the non-money make writers on board? Perhaps the Mag is not so much in the business of a making a profit as it is pushing certain agendas and objectives.
You mean to say John McCain was tortured in Viet Nam? I hadn't heard that.
"You mean to say John McCain was tortured in Viet Nam? I hadn't heard that." Well of course you didn't hear that. Because under US law, he wasn't tortured. It was just a simple interrogation. And surely he feels the same way, having voted for that law.
Fact-check: 1. What was the medical attention that McCain's adopted daughter required to live? Who provided it and where? At whose cost? 2. The child that was adopted by McCain's aide - how was immigration arranged in 5 days for this child? What was the child's immigration status? What does it mean when the adoptive grandfather says that he never saw a hospital bill? International adoptions take MONTHS or YEARS. Either immigration laws were circumvented or Karl Rove's article is incorrect. Anyone?
Ed, One we have never admitted to (formally) using is the guy from Abu Gharib standing on the box with the electrode's hooked up to him. That one is called "The Vietnam" and it's always amazed me that this group of low level enlisted folks according to the official story just happened to re-invent it in a serendipitous event down to the last tiny detail and everyone takes this narrative seriously.
Where's Mixner? This is his bailiwick, arguing in favor of torture.
Comments closed May 15, 2008. |
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Heads in the Sand
Not only that but I wonder what conclusion about McCain as a person we are really supposed to draw from this prisoner history. He told them operational stuff? Or he didn't tell them operational stuff? Or he had no operational stuff to tell them? Getting tortured isn't really much of a sign of anything except that you are helpless and your captors can do it. No great heroism there one way or another. But one thing we can say: at least the vietnamese were at war with McCain and not just torturing him because he was a limo driver for his father, the admiral, or some 14 year old kid they'd bought from an intermediary. If we are to admire mccain for having been tortured, shouldn't we be considering nominating Jose Padilla for president of the republican party? As I understand it, he's been tortured too. and hey, at this point, he's certainly crazy enough to qualify.
Posted by aimai | May 1, 2008 11:52 AM