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The world only spins forward, but sometimes it spins in fits and starts

28 May 2008 12:18 pm

[Alyssa]

There's lots on Hillary Clinton and issues of feminism and sexism to read today. Harold Myerson warns her die-hard supporters not to "turn feminism into the last refuge of scoundrels," but I think the more important piece is Michelle Cottle and Amanda Fortini's discussion over at The New Republic.

The Democratic field this year was a cornucopia of opportunities for voters to address their anxieties about what it would be like for a black man, a Latino man, or a woman to run the country. And while opportunities like those are exciting, they also involve deciding which societal ill to address first, and no matter the scenario, that's a profoundly uncomfortable decision for anyone who cares about eliminating both racism and sexism.

Of course the chance to address race, or sex are far from the only things that matter. Mechanics of the campaign, the candidates' personal histories, voting records, speaking abilities, etc., have all been crucial in this race, and those elements shaped how Clinton and Obama presented the narratives of their respective gender and race. But race and gender were visible and important issues in this race; it wasn't just about mechanics, and it's not just about societal perceptions. And as Michelle puts it so eloquently:

You have pundits like Andrew Sullivan waxing rhapsodic about how fantabulous it would be for America's image, how great and glorious a morning it will be, when we have an African American taking the oath. You would never hear someone say that about a woman. Even if they're talking about the historic nature of it, they don't talk about it in such grand and soul-cleansing terms. And I think part of it is that in the history of this country, slavery, Jim Crow, and racism have been much uglier, more overt, nasty phenomena than sexism.

Sexism is here, sexism is present, but it's been more paternalistic, and presented in soft, warm and fuzzy terms...Women weren't persecuted for burning their bras. Feminism is a different cause than civil rights. Slavery is kind of a moral scar for America, so we can be poetic about how great it's going to be when we, at last, elect an African American. And we just can't talk that way about electing a woman.

Whether that was a conscious choice we made or not, America's going to seriously grapple in a general election with what it will be like to have the first black president before it takes on what it will be like to have the first woman president. That's not a right or wrong priority, it's just what we've got. But it doesn't make it wrong for people who care about seeing a woman in the White House to be frustrated about that their vision is still a ways away from reality.

Update: Quick clarification. I don't think that electing a black man, or a woman, or a Latino, or anyone in particular is going to--in and of itself--produce substantive change in the lives of Americans, much less produce a magically just society where everyone gets a pony, seasons tickets to the sports franchise of their choosing and a mint-condition copy of "Meet the Beatles." But I do think that who is in the White House gets folks talking and thinking about what the role of that office is, what qualities matter in leadership, and the face we present to the world, and those conversations are one stop on the road to much bigger, and more pressing, changes.

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Comments (44)

As a woman, as the mother of daughters, and more importantly, as someone who has worked mosts of her life on environmental issues, I really would love to have greater feminine, yin, motherly, nurturing, compassionate influence in our national politics.

Senator Clinton, who prides herself on her toughness, who voted for the war I protested, who sticks to being a fighter, brings none of that yin balance to the yang overload we currently bear.

1) I kinda think this a crock. Neither the election of a women or an African-American to President will change things that much for millions of people who get screwed every day. Including African-American women.

2) Pareto's iron law still holds. A small percentage of the people have the money and the political power. An even small percentage owns the news media.

We have required courses in high school civics and a shitload of posturing on TV to conceal that fact.

3) The elites pay the Republicans to screw us. And when we get finally wake up and start to get angry, they put Democrats in charge to convince us that things have changed.

Things never change.

In time, the Democrats screw us. And when we get angry over that, it will be time to bring the reform Republicans back in.

4) Think I'm wrong? Look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:United_States_Income_Distribution_1967-2003.svg

See any improvement for the bottom 50 percent over the last 40 years?

Sexism is universal, whereas African-American racism is, well, American. So countering racism -- or producing an image that seems to counter it, which is what Sullivan's talking about -- fits into an American-exceptional narrative.

Also, it seems a lot of people feel that sexism is less in need of correcting than racism (e.g. "sweetie").

All that said, if Hillary didn't have such a Liebermanesque foreign policy I think she'd have won.

The Democratic field this year was a cornucopia of opportunities for voters to address their anxieties about what it would be like for a black man, a Latino man, or a woman to run the country. And while opportunities like those are exciting, they also involve deciding which societal ill to address first, and no matter the scenario, that's a profoundly uncomfortable decision for anyone who cares about eliminating both racism and sexism.

Obama and Clinton are not magical healers sent to cure society's evil "isms". They are politicians. They have established records on a multitude of domestic and foreign policies, and have also offered a variety of general and specific proposals on domestic and foreign policies. I would suggest that the impact of whichever one is elected on our Middle East policy, our China policy, our health care policy or our education policy will be much more pronounced and profound than on the more amorphous concerns of racism or sexism.

Electing Obama is probably not going to do a great deal more to address the societal ill of racism than would electing any other progressive Democrat. Neither would electing Clinton do a great deal more to address the societal ill of sexism and gender discrimination than would electing any other progressive Democrat. The notion that this race represents some great societal choice about which societal ill to address first is specious.

It doesn't help rational thought if you see the President not as the head of one branch of the government, but as, in the words of Giblets, the Priest-Avatar of the State; I don't think there was similar soul-searching in (say) Britain or India when they elected their first female prime ministers. No one was dense enough to think that electing Margaret Thatcher would be "addressing the societal ill of sexism".

Point taken, I suppose. But as a young woman, I'm sick to death of being told that I am only excited about the prospect of an Obama presidency because he is African-American. At the end of the day, I would be THRILLED to vote for a woman to our highest elected office. I dare say there would be millions who agree with that sentiment. But Hillary Clinton is not the kind of candidate that inspired that thrill or zeal - I respected her a whole lot back when she was First Lady and have consistently spoken in her favor since that time, but I never wanted her to run for president.

Truthfully, I think it has been to the detriment of the feminist -- or more appropriately, humanist -- cause that Hillary is our first real gambit at the presidency. She has polarized for years; there are many more women out there that I will vote for when the time comes, and how would be better suited to the cause now.

Dear Delicious Pundit,

I'm 45, live in the south and women I do not know call me "dear" and "hon" all the time. Is that sexism? I don't think so, and neither is sweetie.
It's not appropriate, but it's not sexism.

"You would never hear someone say that about a woman." is only true if you ignore all of the people who actually did say that, and continue to say that every day.

I really want to see a woman in the White House for the sake of my daughter's dreams and because I think sexism is a huge problem, and having a woman president would inevitably force progress in that area.

But right at this moment, I think this country has bigger problems than sexism (Iraq, the economy, the environment) and so I voted for the person I think is best equipped to handle those problems. Sexism and racism had nothing to do with my decision.

I voted for Dixie Lee Ray (no, not the burlesque queen) because I thought it would advance the cause of women to have a woman governor. It's not a mistake I'm going to make twice.

Alyssa: And while opportunities like those are exciting, they also involve deciding which societal ill to address first

Except that selecting a female or minority nominee is not, in and of itself, a means of addressing those social ills--let alone "eliminating racism and sexism." At best, it's a symbolic act that creates an opportunity for the country to talk about those ills, although it's by no means certain that the candidates would take that opportunity. Clinton didn't seem interested in addressing sexism until she was hopelessly behind in delegates and flailing for a reason to continue her campaign. And Obama ran as the "post-racial" candidate until the Wright mania forced him to address race.

Your framing also presents voting as a decision on which social ill to confront first, which is just odd. I volunteer for Obama because I think he's the better candidate and because I want to end the Iraq war, not because I think racism is worse or more urgent than sexism. Maybe there are voters who base their decisions purely on which symbolic gesture they want to make, but I would rather pick the best person for the job.

Beth: I really would love to have greater feminine, yin, motherly, nurturing, compassionate influence in our national politics.

Setting aside the fact that this list is just as cliched and reductive as, say, a yearning for masculine, yang, fatherly, protective, courageous influence... (if you're rolling your eyes at one, you should be rolling them at the other)... the first women to come to power in most democracies are usually cut from the Margaret Thatcher/Indira Gandhi/Golda Meir mold, i.e. power-hungry warmongers who overcompensate for any perceived "feminine" weakness by adopting all those cliched "masculine" traits, crushing anyone who stands in their way.

In other words, exactly the kind of president Hillary Clinton would like to be. It would be nice if her spectacular failure destroyed the viability of this particular role so a genuine feminist can become president. Or, at the very least, so a woman can become president without having to run to the right of George W. Bush on matters of war.

All that said, if Hillary didn't have such a Liebermanesque foreign policy I think she'd have won.

Thats the thing isn't it. For all the talk about whether sexism or racism is the operative factor, this was Clinton's race to lose. As much as I am an Obama supporter, he would have had no chance if Clinton had not given him such an opening on the Iraq issue. Obviously she couldn't go back in time and change her vote but even if she had just admitted she was wrong earlier and with more genuine contrition, she would have won this thing handily. Indeed, I doubt Obama would have even run this time around. But here we are.

Sexism and racism have certainly played their part but there are issues that have simply trumped both of those factors and the Iraq war was most certainly one of them.

Too bad (but telling) that the excerpt starts off with Andrew Sullivan, the poster child for the MSM's virulent dislike of all things Clinton, particularly Hillary (and I think sexism plays a role in this). In other words, I think there's a connection between the muted reaction to the whole "first woman" thing and the fact that the woman in question is a Clinton. There's no telling whether there would have been rhapsodies about another woman -- truth be told, I don't think so. After all, most of the MSM's coverage of Nancy Pelosi has been either negative or patronizing, or both. But maybe, in the blogosphere . . . ? Or maybe I'm just being too hopeful.

Don't get me wrong. I certainly believe that slavery and segregation are original sins and have always been at the center of our political, cultural, and economic history. And that (white) America has never grappled with this, except during a couple of brief moments in the middle of the 19th and 20th centuries, which were marked by varying degrees violence and unrest and fear and progress, and were followed by repression and regression. And yes, of course, sexism and racism are not the same, and it's pointless to argue over which is "worse."

But the patronizing attitudes toward women in public life, which fall away as soon as they lose their ability to keep these women in their place and are replaced by contemptuous, even vicious namecalling (or worse), are not warm and fuzzy. That's just a story we tell ourselves, just like the one about how "we" always supported civil rights for all and admired MLKjr as a noble and selfless force for good in the world. (And so on.)

The thing I don't see mentioned much, but was almost alluded to by Michelle, is that there is a fundamental difference between racism and sexism. It does not deny the exsistence of sexism to say that since everyone is biologically either male or female, sexism is fundamentally different from racism, since by definition, everyone is not a member of a racial minority. The election of an African American man would indeed be a very noteworthy thing in lots of parts of the world, whereas the election of a woman would be a bigger deal for *us* than others, since we're so remedial in that area, and so self-obsessed anyway.

I understand the yearning some women have to have a woman president, but I would hope it would be kept in perspective, that other considerations would trump fairly early. Otherwise we are in danger of subscribing to the George W. Bush school of diversity (ie 'MY hacks and toadies are black, female, hispanic - you name it! Condi is African American AND a woman!'). In other words, literalism. In other words, tribalism. I hope HRC's failure to win this time marks the beginning of the end of what i would call Commercial Feminism - an obsolete, symbolic cohort of feminism we've been stuck with in the last 35 years. I would guess that most people under 50 are beyond symbols, and I hope beyond tribalism, too. It would be an undeniable milestone of progress to have a female POTUS, but it simply isn't the most important thing - especially since the presidency is such an incredibly rare office (we've had only 43 in 200+ years).

Slavery is the country's big, cronically infected, pus-oozing wound. And it's an explicitly *political* sin. Electing an AA man is a very big deal indeed.

"And while opportunities like those are exciting, they also involve deciding which societal ill to address first,"

only if you view your choice is predicated on this, and I dunno that most people view their choice on that basis.

It is more in sadness than in anger that I am forced to conclude that ajay has forgotten the difference between Giblets and the Medium Lobster.

That said, his(?) invocation of that classic Fafblog post is exactly on point. Arbitrary details of presidential background simply have an outsized importance in the American landscape. I tend to think that's a consequence of our constitution, which separates presidential from legislative elections so thoroughly that voters with low partisan commitment are almost just picking personalities.

But the cause matters less than the effect: A Black president, or a woman president, would simply by taking office have non-trivial effects on the lives of Black folks and women. I'm not sure I ever saw an all-Black panel discussing race in America on mainstream cable before the Obama campaign. I'm anecdotally informed that the Clinton campaign has been good for female reporters. Yes, these are all effects on media professionals, but those are of outsized importance by themselves, as some other posters have said.

Also: mary, right on.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to think that electing a female President would do less for the image of the United States in other countries than electing a black President. That has nothing in particular to do with comparing the ills of racism and sexism, but rather the fact that women have already been the elected leaders of many countries, including the UK. Meanwhile, in the United States women have already been Governors, Senators, Representatives (including now Majority Leader), and Justices of the Supreme Court. So even assuming people in other countries know that the United States has never had a female President, I think it is reasonable to suspect they view that more as a historical accident than indicative of something fundamental about the United States.

But the cause matters less than the effect: A Black president, or a woman president, would simply by taking office have non-trivial effects on the lives of Black folks and women.

Highly implausible. Did Margaret Thatcher, simply by taking office as Britain's first female prime minister, have a non-trivial effect on the lives of British women? Not that anyone has been able to show.

Maybe I am wrong here, but I think Michelle Cottle has forgotten something. A lady named Margaret Thatcher. Sullivan swooned over her before and still does to this day. So he obviously has nothing against women.

Mixner, my case is based on the distinctive cultural role of the US president, which is quite different from that of a PM in a parliamentary system.

Sullivan swooning over Thatcher is like Republicans swooning over JC Watts.

"...waxing rhapsodic about how fantabulous it would be for America's image, how great and glorious a morning it will be, when we have an African American taking the oath. You would never hear someone say that about a woman."

Let's step outside of the provincial bubble that we are in. In the three countries outside of the US where I have spent much of my life (Argentina, Ireland and the US), the idea of a "woman president" as some kind of enormous breakthrough that will revive US stature is absolutely preposterous. Kristina Fernandez de Kirchner, the current Argentine president, was repeatedly described in the US media as "the Argentine Hillary" -- first lady, Senator, woman, presidential candidate -- which leaves out the obvious counterpart: at best, had she won Hillary would have been the "US Kristina." In other words, a woman in the White House might be a big advance in the USA, but it would hardly make the US some kind of political gender-equity model in the Americas; at best, it might mean that we catch up with Chile and Argentina (which would be great, actually).

Nicaraguans, Argentines, Chileans would greet the "ground-breaking" notion of a woman president in the US with a very polite "Oh, that's nice. It's good to see you in the 21st century, with the rest of us." And, as much as Sen. Clinton might be "a fighter," I just don't see her holding a candle to the personal narrative of someone like Chilean president Michele Bachelet.

In other words, for much of what Sullivan was saying -- the importance of an African-American US president for US image abroad -- Hillary Clinton would be irrelevant beyond simply being a vast improvement over Bush. Obama, on the other hand, would be akin to someone like Evo Morales (if we can imagine that the indigenous population of Bolivia were a minority), who, in fact, has changed the perception of Bolivia abroad.

1) You people are fools.

2) George Bush's press secretary just admitted that Bush lied through his teeth to trigger an unnecessary, bloody and hugely expensive war.

3) He also confirmed that the new media tripped over themselves helping George sell his lies.

4) Your entire view of the world is based upon what you hear from the news media. If they lied to you before, what makes you think they aren't lying to you now?

If they hide information from you before, what makes you think they aren't doing so now?

Who, after all , has paid a price? Bill Moyers noted in "Selling the War" that the people who conned America prospered in their careers. New York Times even gave William Kristol a column.

5) Do any of you think George Bush made the decisions in his Administration?

6) But instead of discussing reality you're discussing a puppet show.

And arguing over whether the puppets should be African-American puppets or white female puppets.

Whether they should wear blue clothes or red clothes.

Whether the puppetmaster should have them do a Kubuki or dance the tango.

Since a major subtext to this debate is a tamed-down version of the question of whether African Americans or women should be "up to bat" so to speak, I haven't seen any demographic breakdown that would touch the only group that has lived both sexism and anti-African American racism: African American women. Where are their votes going, and in what percentages?

Now, I don't mean at all to imply that this would somehow be a decisive thing in all of this, but it does seem to me that it would be good to know the opinions of those (other than my friends -- a politically self-selecting group to start with) who have had to deal with both racism and sexism. At the very least, it is a factor that shouldn't be left out of the conversation.

Anyone know of a good polling breakdown of African American women?

After Meyerson's dubious post at Tapped before Super Tuesday he is about the last person any Clinton supporter, die-hard or not, is going to listen to. He doesn't help his case by writing this obvious falsehood, "Obama and John Edwards complied with the DNC's dictates by removing their names from the Michigan ballot." His piece is directed at neutrals and/or Obama supporters.

If we’re going to continue with the racism vs. sexism meme, then I’d like to point out that white women have been eager and active participants in the racism directed against African Americans. With the exception of white men, there is NO OTHER group in this country with more privilege and power than white women. Every time I hear white women wondering why African American women aren’t marching in solidarity with them I just laugh. It never occurs to them that they are a guilty party. When you lie down with dogs, don’t be surprised when you get fleas.

Of course what do I know…I’m just a white dude.

I have always read the references to the Obama being good for our (American) image more in terms of what the world thinks of us than what we think of ourselves. Perhaps I have read these references incorrectly. But my impression is that from a world view it is a big change for an non-white to be president of the United States - yes, bigger than a woman president.

Western countries have already had and currently do have women in roles of head of state - Hillary is not that big of a change for anyone but us. But I can't think of ONE western country that has had a head of state that is not white. In this, I think the world will sit up and take notice that a WESTERN country will elect a person of color (be it black, brown, yellow or some other color I have forgotten). Of course, my memory of foreign heads of state could very well be faulty - please correct me if I am wrong.

Please understand that I don't think it is the number one reason to vote for one person or another - the reasons to vote for a candidate are and should be more complex than one single issue. But I think perhaps it is long past time for us to start thinking about how we look to the rest of the world as one of the many issues to consider.

A presidential election is not about whose historical "wrongs" are addressed first.

It is about picking the person who would best lead the country.

Obama has won that contest hands-down.

I've heard Clinton invoke gender many times on the campaign trail to garner votes for herself.

I have not heard Obama do the same for race. In fact, he (with the exception of the "More Perfect Union" speech) has deliberately skirted it.

"I don't think so, and neither is sweetie."

Don't be disingenuous. Context matters. Men, until recently, used diminutive terms when addressing women in almost all social situations. Women addressed men using the same terms was then, and is now, very exceptional.

Don Williams, just come out and say what you really think: that they're all puppets of the Jooooooooooooooooooooooooooos.

A couple of things here;


First, look at the difference between the costs and the results of the Civil Rights and Women’s Rights Movements respectively.

How many women were killed for protesting their right to vote? How many African-Americans were killed protesting for the same right? How many were killed simply for the color of their skin?

In the last hundred years, there have been three African-Americans elected US Senators and two elected Governor of one of the 50 states. And so far only one of them, Sen. Edward Brooke, a liberal Republican from Massachusetts, actually won reelection.

In that same time frame, how many women have been elected US Senator or Governor of a state? I’m not going to bother to look it up but the number is far, far greater than the equivalent for African-Americans. Sure, you can say that there have not been enough women in public office, considering that women make up about 51% of the population. But that leads into another point.

There will be a woman President someday, maybe not in the lifetime of 60’s era feminists but as long as women are half of the population, it will happen. But what are the chances that you’ll see another African-American elected President if Barack Obama can’t make it? African-Americans are what percentage of the population, 13% or so? That number is not going up to any great degree. Indeed, very soon African-Americans will become the second biggest minority group in American, after getting passed by Latinos. Sen. Obama might not be their only chance but he is probably their best chance.

Secondly, do feminists really want Hillary Clinton do be the first woman President? Does anyone actually think that she would ever been elected a US Senator, much less be a serious contender for the US Presidency, if she hadn’t married Bill Clinton? (Bill Clinton, not exactly the ideal husband, political or otherwise.) That’s not to say she isn’t smart and tough and talented and a bunch of other things. But compare Hillary with Speaker of the House Rep. Nancy Pelosi. Madam Speaker did it herself; she became the first female Speaker in our nation’s history through 100% of her own efforts. The biggest help she got from a man was probably her father, the late Mayor of Baltimore, who perhaps passed on some good pol DNA to her. Really, Speaker Pelosi’s biggest stoke of bad luck is that she is the Representative from San Francisco, CA. If she had been the Representative from Des Moines, Iowa or Lincoln, Nebraska or something, who knows if she could have gone even further.

"... waxing rhapsodic about how fantabulous it would be for America's image, how great and glorious a morning it will be, when we have an African American taking the oath. You would never hear someone say that about a woman."

It's not "an" African American, or "a" woman. It's Obama and Clinton. It would not be fantabulous for America's image to have Clarence Thomas or Colin Powell become president. And I can think of some women who would be fantabulous for America's image.

If it were just about race and gender, elect Condi Rice and see what that does for America's image.

This woman vs black talk distracts from the main thing, which is that the candidates are dissimilar. Obama excites and offers hope, like Kennedy did. Clinton promises competence (though her awful campaign leaves me wondering), like Bush senior did. At really bad times in history, competence just isn't enough.

Mary wrote: "Too bad (but telling) that the excerpt starts off with Andrew Sullivan, the poster child for the MSM's virulent dislike of all things Clinton, particularly Hillary (and I think sexism plays a role in this)."

Based on the polling data, it's not just the MSM that has a virulent dislike of, perhaps not all things Clinton, but certainly Hillary.

IMO, the absolute deal breaker is the whole "two for one" deal. I don't want Bill hanging around as an unelected President. The notion that HRC would become president, meaning (potentially) that members of the same two families would occupy the highest office of the land for an entire generation (1988 to, potentially 2016, which makes for 28 years, not even counting GHWB's two terms as VP) is profoundly, profoundly wrong.

Is this unfair for HRC as a person? Perhaps, but there it is.

It's also true that female heads of state are more common than black heads of state in non-black-majority nations.

Europe, Latin America, Asia, and Africa have all had women leading countries.

(Swedish PM Fredrik Reinfeldt's great-grandfather was African-American, but Reinfeldt doesn't carry any visible 'black' traits that would lead to racial bias against him.)

From that perspective, a female President is not particularly historic in a world-historic sense. They have and do run leading first-world countries. A black man or woman leading a first-world country *would* be world-historic.

And this is completely ignoring the fact that some of the most prominent, successful monarchs in the last half-millenium have been women: Elizabeth 1, Catherine the Great, Victoria.

Recent female heads of state featured in movies: Elizabeth, Queen Victoria
Recent black heads of state featured in movies: Idi Amin

"Recent female heads of state featured in movies: Elizabeth, Queen Victoria

Recent black heads of state featured in movies: Idi Amin"

Ouch! But true.

Mixner, my case is based on the distinctive cultural role of the US president, which is quite different from that of a PM in a parliamentary system.

What case? You haven't made one. In what ways relevant to this issue does the "cultural role" of the president in the U.S. differ from that of the prime minister in Britain? Your claim seems more a matter of wishful thinking than a conclusion based on evidence.

"In what ways relevant to this issue does the "cultural role" of the president in the U.S. differ from that of the prime minister in Britain?"

I don’t know how the system of democratic government makes a difference. But we Americans seem to have a somewhat dysfunctional need to like our Presidential candidates on a personal level. I don’t know, did the English worry about if Thatcher or Blair were the kind of people you’d want to have a beer with? Are there any other Western Democracies like this? Our candidates definitely seem to have to check the “Christian” box if they want to win. In times of crisis our President often almost acts as “Pastor in Chief”, that’s definitely different.

Raindog

Nancy Pelosi is not the best female politician to use to make your point. She was part of the Burton machine and was hand picked by Sala Burton to succeed her. Take a good look at the women in the Senate, it appears about a third got their start in politics due to family connections.

Theoretically, African-Americans got the right to vote in 1870 while it took women until 1920.

“Nancy Pelosi is not the best female politician to use to make your point. She was part of the Burton machine and was hand picked by Sala Burton to succeed her. Take a good look at the women in the Senate, it appears about a third got their start in politics due to family connections.”

I’m actually aware of how she got her House seat; Burton was dying of cancer right? At least her benefactor was a fellow woman. But I’d think you’d have to say that she got her Speakership all by herself, which was my point.

Lots of pols get their start from family connections. But Hillary? God, her entire political career is a by-product of Bill’s success. That’s why her whole “35 years of experience” chaffed me so much. That’s why I went against her.

Bill wins a political office and Hillary gets to pick her assignment that she wants. The people working for the Governor/President know they have to do as HRC says because she’s the boss’ wife. But when she screws up, (Healthcare in 93-94), there are no consequences and she gets a new project.

When she finally has to do it herself, she pulls a shameful act of carpet-bagging and moves to NY. (At least RFK lived in NY for years before he ran the Senate). And she gets a seat handed to her on a silver-platter, pushing out a NY Congresswoman in the process. Nina Lowery I think was her name, it was her turn but she had to suck it up because the President wanted his wife to get a Senate seat. It’s not that Hillary isn’t smart or tough, as I said. She never really has made it in politics on her own. Bill and HIS political machine has always been there. The worst part is it’s been so calculating, everybody knew when she ran in 2000, the WH in 2008 was her goal. At least Teddy waited for 18 years between his first Senate run and his WH run.

I don’t really begrudge her anything but her running for the WH on a claim of experience. She can have her Senate seat for life, I even think she’d make a great Senate Majority Leader.

"Anyone know of a good polling breakdown of African American women?

Posted by Charly Gardel | May 28, 2008 2:16 PM"

From what I've seen, mostly going to Obama, but not to the same extent as African-American men.

I largely agree that we shouldn't be picking a president primarily to say "we've moved past (insert type of bigotry)!" We should choose the person most qualified from all running with the best judgment. After all, if the race was Harold Ford vs. Clinton, I probably could have easily seen myself backing Clinton because Ford has an even more conservative track record and I bet that a good portion of Obama supporters, including black voters, would have felt the same way. That wouldn't mean I would think sexism is worse / more important than racism or vice versa, but that it would come down to the individual. If it was Feingold vs. Clinton, would it be about anti-Semitism vs. sexism? If it was Boxer vs. Clinton, would it be the same thing? In both of these two scenarios, I would be voting for Feingold or Boxer because of their better progressive track record. Then again, I would back Clinton vs. Lieberman, in part because Lieberman isn't actually even a Democrat. The president isn't a magical fairy who can make all of our sins wash away when they take the Oath of Office.

I also think that breaking the monopoly on white (supposedly) straight Christian (or often described as Christian, though Lincoln wasn't a self-described Christian and many early presidents were deists) males with an Obama presidency also makes it easier to have a female president, a Latino, Asian, Middle Eastern or Native American president, a gay, lesbian or bi president, a Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or atheist president, etc. sometime in the future on a long enough time line. As long as Obama does a good job in office and gets re-elected, he can show that it doesn't take only one demographic segment to run this country.

"Theoretically, African-Americans got the right to vote in 1870 while it took women until 1920."

What a word, "Theoretically". How much death has followed the utterance of that word.

Again, how many women died for trying to vote? How many African-Americans died for similar reasons?

Theoretically, African-Americans got the right to vote in 1870 while it took women until 1920.

Practically, not until after the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and many blacks were disenfranchised in Florida in 2000.

This all reminds me of Tony Stark:

Tony Stark: O.k., seriously, I feel like you're driving me to court martial. This is crazy. What did I do? I feel like you're gonna pull over and snuff me. What, you're not allowed to talk? Hey, Forest...

Jimmy: We can talk, sir.

Tony Stark: Oh, I see. So it's personal. Alright.

Ramirez: You intimidate them, sir.

Tony Stark: Good God, you're a woman! I honestly couldn't have called that. I mean, I would apologize, but isn't that what we're going for here? I thought of you as a soldier first.

Ramirez: I'm an airman.

Tony Stark: Well you actually have excellent bone structure there. I'm having a hard time not looking at you now. Is that weird?

"I've always met more discrimination being a woman than being black.

Wow, and here I thought the election was about the candidates themselves.

When's Matt coming back?


Comments closed June 11, 2008.

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