« NARAL Blowback | Main | Burma, Deep Background »

Traffic Stop

15 May 2008 03:43 pm

Spencer Ackerman:

Geoffrey Millard, a soldier with the New York National Guard, was a general's assistant in Iraq. He related a story he attended a briefing his boss about: a soldier at a traffic control point, faced with a speeding, oncoming car, "made a split-second decision" to fire "more than 200 rounds into the vehicle," killing its inhabitants. "He then watched as the mother, father and two children were carried from that car.

"That evening, as it was briefed to the general -- and I flipped the slides for that briefing -- Col. [William] Rochelle, from the 42nd Infantry Division, DISCOM [Division Support Command] commander -- and I have to apologize for a little vulgarity here, but I feel it's intricate for my testimony -- he turned in his chair to an entire division-level staff, and he said, and I quote, 'If these fucking Hajjis learned to drive, this shit wouldn't happen.'"

To me, in a sense, it's these checkpoints incidents, more than anything else, that exposes the fundamental folly of occupation.

If you're an American, it's just not going to be tolerable to have a bunch of foreigners who only speak Arabic manning traffic stops while heavily armed and ultimately accountable only to an all-foreign chain of command. Nobody would put up with that -- it's absurd. And of course if an American cop had put 200 rounds into a car and killed a whole civilian family over a traffic violation there would have been a shitstorm about it in local politics and the legal system. Even if the shooter evaded any criminal sanction, there would be consequences -- you couldn't possibly just brush it off and put the guy back out there directing traffic!

And conversely, suppose you were asked to finish up your basic training and then go to a foreign country where you don't speak the language but there is a domestic insurgency that forms one part of a complicated patchwork of oft-violent political machinations that you have no way of understanding. You've got a gun, some of your colleagues have been blown up, and here's car speeding right toward you. How am I going to blame you for opening fire? And can you imagine orders going down the chain of command asking U.S. soldiers to radically increase their chances of getting killed in order to somewhat reduce the odds of Iraqis being killed in good faith mistakes? Or putting your life in the hands of your fellow soldiers and then turning around and ratting them out if their errors led to loss of civilian life?

The whole thing is maddeningly impossible. I can't at all imagine the right way to handle these situations. Shrugging it off with an "If these fucking Hajjis learned to drive, this shit wouldn't happen" clearly isn't the right answer, but is there one? I say, no there isn't -- there's just no good way to be a long-term occupying power. American soldiers are (rightly) accountable to American politicians who are (rightly) accountable to American voters but that means they can't be the ultimate source of authority in Iraq in any kind of reasonable way.

Share This

Comments (75)

That last sentence sums it up. Now, of course American politicians should care more about 1 American life, including the life of an American soldier, than 1 Iraqi life. However, this also undermines the effectiveness of our troops ability to get the average Iraqi on their side. When the most powerful actor with the most potentially violent power in the country cares more about a group of foreigners who don't even speak the language and sometimes torture the locals than the actual locals, that actor will bleed authority over the locals.

Can someone more well-versed in military/occupying tactics explain to me what the 'good' of a checkpoint is at all? What purpose do they serve?

This is the photo that led the international news in every country but the United States the day Bush was inaugurated for his second term, a checkpoint shootat at Tal Afar.

There is no good way but McCain and Republicans are not looking for a good way. Firing 200 bullets for a traffic violation is OK for most Republicans, just as torture is. Hey it's legal.

We can beat our chests all we want, and the polls may say that most Americans want to have a sensible way to deal with intractable foreign policy issues which are only intractable because it's a feature of the Republican approach, not a bug, but in the ultimate analysis we will vote for the person who is able to tar the opponent as an appeaser and a terrorist sympathizer.

We are all fucked. We should resign to four years of McCain.

You use checkpoints to control the movement of people and munitions. Without them, it would be a helluva lot easier for insurgents to move fighters and weapons.

Hey, every innocent family blown to bits is a great advance for FREEDOM and LIBERTY!

Stay strong!!

Thanks, calipygian.

And people wonder why I sincerely desire that Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Lieberman, both Clintons, and roughly 200,000 others, be tried as war criminals and, upon conviction, be hanged by the neck until DEAD DEAD DEAD?

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who DOESN'T want that is a baby killing monster.

Wolverines!

I mean, look at it this way. Think about how most Americans feel about Al Queda. Basically, from the perspective of the Iraqi on the street, the United States IS Al Queda, except worse by more than two orders of magnitude (in terms of deaths caused).

In in re the above, I'm againt torture even for monsters such as Bush and Cheney. But I would be in favor of forcing them to watch a few hunderd hours of the film of the chilren and other innocents that they have killed, before sending the two of them to an eternity of suffering in the fires of hell.

"To me, in a sense, it's these checkpoints incidents, more than anything else, that exposes the fundamental folly of occupation."

Anytime you have an enemy that targets civilians with car bombs and suicide bombers, you need checkpoints to protect the civilian population from them. If some innocent civilians ignore warnings to stop and speed right toward the checkpoint, and are subsequently killed, that's a tragedy, but it doesn't expose any "fundamental folly". This could just as well have happened during a humanitarian intervention you would presumably support. Would it then expose the "fundamental folly" of humanitarian intervention?

Right.

By my very rough estimate, American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan fire about 10,000 bullets in anger (i.e., not for training) every hour. That's a quarter of a million per day, a 100 million or so per year.

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/10/number-of-bullets-fired-in-iraq.html

That's not a way to win friends, especially in a culture where cousins are honor-bound to avenge deaths.

Calipygian, are there any metrics for how much easier it makes it? I'm asking honestly here, I really don't know. Does "easier" means that, if there were no checkpoints, five (or ten or fifty) more GIs will be killed over the course of a year? If we don't have some estimate how much the cost is actually going to be, we really can't judge how reasonable the checkpoints are.

Shorter Fred: We have to kill the civilians in order to save them.

Fred,

I sincerely hope that some cop blows away you and yuor family at a drunk driving check point.

just saw this on The Corner (i go there to laugh). i feel bad for poor Matt:

Selling Well Is the Best Revenge [Kevin D. Williamson]

Bearing in mind the usual caveats that apply when writing about a colleague, I am happy to hear that Liberal Fascism is marching toward the six-figure mark in hardcover sales. Conveniently, some of those snarky media types who were most dismissive (and worse) about the book also have books out of their own.

A pleasing sales update, via Bookscan:

Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg: 91,246


Great American Hypocrites by Glenn Greenwald: 3,854

Right Is Wrong by Arianna Huffington: 5,495

Heads in the Sand by Matthew Yglesias: 705

Liberal Fascism may have been out a bit longer than these, but not that much longer. Unless Yglesias's mom starts ordering books by the pallet, it doesn't look likely that he'll catch up.

Fight! Fight! Fight!! From Jonah Goldberg:


Schadenfreude Alert

I know how hard it is to write a book. I know how capricious the market can be. And I know how unseemly gloating can be. Still, I can't help but smile a bit at the news that Matt Yglesias has sold 705 books according to Bookscan.* (My Bookscan number is 91,246).

Matt was smarmy, sneering, haughty and even dishonest about my book for years before it came out and even worse after. I remember , after he wrote his lame review of LF my editor, Adam Bellow, advised me to laugh it off. All of Matt's whines about how terrible it was and what a chore it was to read were really compliments he explained. Yglesias felt he had to read my book (or at least he felt he had to claim he read it). My book mattered enough that he couldn't ignore it. Adam was right. I remember telling an audience at a talk at the Borders on L street at the time that I doubted I'd feel like I'd have to read Matt's book when it came out. It turns out I was right. Indeed, it seems the feeling is quite widespread.

Substitute a perjorative racial epiphet for Vietnamese (rather than his perjorative racial epiphet for an innocent Iraqi family) in this Colonel's remark, and you've just jumped back in time forty years.

Stay classy, Rochelle.

"Shorter Fred: We have to kill the civilians in order to save them."

As part of the 'surge' there has been a been a big increase in the number of check points (by both American and Iraqi troops). The result has been a huge decrease in the number of Iraqi civilians killed.

"Would it then expose the 'fundamental folly' of humanitarian intervention?"

Yes, actually, if that "humanitarian intervention" led to a similar long-term hostile occupation by American forces.

Um...didn't Matt's book JUST come out? Not that I think it will unseat the Pantload anytime soon (nor do I care).

Evidently if enough morons buy your book, it proves you aren't a moron. Or something.

"I remember telling an audience at a talk at the Borders on L street at the time that I doubted I'd feel like I'd have to read Matt's book when it came out."

It's true, he really did say this. He also was unable to provide a coherent answer to my question about whether his book concedes the golden era of American prosperity (1945-1972) to succesful liberal "fascist" economic policies, but his book isn't really big on coherence or intellectual integrity.

"I remember telling an audience at a talk at the Borders on L street at the time that I doubted I'd feel like I'd have to read Matt's book when it came out."

It's true, he really did say this. He also was unable to provide a coherent answer to my question about whether his book concedes the golden era of American prosperity (1945-1972) to succesful liberal "fascist" economic policies, but his book isn't really big on coherence or intellectual integrity.

"I remember telling an audience at a talk at the Borders on L street at the time that I doubted I'd feel like I'd have to read Matt's book when it came out."

It's true, he really did say this. He also was unable to provide a coherent answer to my question about whether his book concedes the golden era of American prosperity (1945-1972) to succesful liberal "fascist" economic policies, but his book isn't really big on coherence or intellectual integrity.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, don't conservative screeds usually outsell liberal screeds anyway? And will it make a damn bit of difference in November?

"And of course if an American cop had put 200 rounds into a car and killed a whole civilian family over a traffic violation there would have been a shitstorm about it in local politics and the legal system."

If the family in the car were black, the cop would get off in NY.

Unless Yglesias's mom starts ordering books by the pallet, it doesn't look likely that he'll catch up

It is well known that conservative interest groups and organizations such as the RNC will often buy back pallets of unsold conservative books from book stores to keep them high on best seller lists (books that are returned to the publisher are subtracted from the overall sold count, thus lowering sales #s). The fact that the doughy pantload's wingnut sugar daddy's engage in this behavior while their is no mirror image strategy on the left should explain much of the discrepancy here. Also the fact that Jonah's "book" has been out since January, and Matthew's official publication date is 4/14/08. But why let facts get in the way of a good screed?

Indeed, these books aren't in the same market, so comparing market shares makes little sense.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, don't conservative screeds usually outsell liberal screeds anyway?

Exactly. Congratulations, tubby, you're now almost successful enough to carry Ann Coulter's luggage. I'm sure that proves your intellectual victory.

Jonah knows in his heart he wrote a shitty fraudulent book. In the end that's what matters. It's nice for his wife and kids that his intellectual whoring is putting food on the table, but it's clear that Jonah is smart enough to realize deep down what a fraud he is.

I wonder how many books Michael Moore has sold.

Erm, I forgot when we decided that popular success would be a stand-in for quality?

I know that I'd much rather watch The Office tonight rather than Two and a Half Men, but I'm sure that shitshow gets a lot more viewers than my favorite mockumentary show. Does that mean it's better? Nein.

I know that I'd much rather watch The Office tonight rather than Two and a Half Men, but I'm sure that shitshow gets a lot more viewers than my favorite mockumentary show. Does that mean it's better? Nein.

No, no, what it means is that any political argument put forth by Charlie Sheen automatically trumps any argument put forth by Steve Carrell, now and forever, bwahaha.

No, no, what it means is that any political argument put forth by Charlie Sheen automatically trumps any argument put forth by Steve Carrell

So legalized drugs and prostitution from now on? Yes!!!!

I'm inclined to side with Fred on this one. It is tragic, but in a land where chaos is the norm, it's understandable why the soldier shot.

Do we have a reason why the car was speeding towards a checkpoint? Most checkpoints have signs in both English and the local language, so I don't see why they would be speeding.

Additionally, it seems that newer checkpoints involve long turns or metal posts that must be navigated to prevent 'ramming' tactics. Do we know what this checkpoint looked like?

"If you're an American, it's just not going to be tolerable to have a bunch of foreigners who only speak Arabic manning traffic stops while heavily armed and ultimately accountable only to an all-foreign chain of command."

Holy cow, Matt! Why do you hate America so much? In one sentence, you've committed nearly every unforgivable sin against the doctrine of American exceptionalism:

- Equating foreign lives with American lives.
- Denying that English is the one true international language.
- Painting a scandalous picture of foreigners in control of US traffic stops.
- Suggesting that American troops could be perceived as other than benevolent by anyone but a scoundrel.

Seriously, though, this is the sort of analogy you'd expect from Noam Chomsky--and I mean that in a good way. I'm just wondering what happened to that starry-eyed young pundit with such a promising future.

Yes, in a country and city where car bombs and roadside bombs are a frequent everyday acquaintance and armed groups kill members of differente religious sects, it is frankly impossible to understand why someone might drive fast at some point.

It is tragic, but in a land where chaos is the norm, it's understandable why the soldier shot.

Everyone understands why the soldier shot. Everyone expects the soldier in those circumstances to shoot. Everyone, if they were a soldier, would have done the same thing.

But I'd just like to point out that in 2002, Iraq was not a land of chaos and our soldiers weren't in situations where they totally understandably and without any malice shot families on the street.

And please don't tell me Saddam was worse. Yes, he was worse. And our government supported him when he was worse. The Iraqi people know this, too.

The solution to this problem isn't driver's ed. And heck, even if it were, it's too dangerous to go to school anymore.

This is a clear example of why the US should not invade countries...where they don't speak English!

I've been pushing an invasion of Canada. They have lots of stuff we want - oil, lumber, ice, salmon. Our military can just hop on the highway in their Hummers and be in Canada in a day. People are polite and they can speak English (even in Quebec), so you won't have these unfortunate incidents at the checkpoints.

Yes, in a country and city where car bombs and roadside bombs are a frequent everyday acquaintance and armed groups kill members of differente religious sects, it is frankly impossible to understand why someone might drive fast at some point.

I'm inclined to side with Fred on this one. It is tragic, but in a land where chaos is the norm, it's understandable why the soldier shot.

Do we have a reason why the car was speeding towards a checkpoint? Most checkpoints have signs in both English and the local language, so I don't see why they would be speeding.

You are totally missing the point. Matt conceded that the reaction of the soldier was understandable under the circumstances.

His point is that in an occupation like in Iraq events like this are (a) bound to happen and (b) breed resentment in the already skeptical to hostile population that undermines every chance that the occupation will be a success, if success is defined as "making the country a stable democracy and a good ally of the US". This it what makes the occupation a folly.

Patrick,

Yes, I'll concede that point readily. But I don't think 'checkpoints' expose the ultimate folly of trying to win the population over. I would argue that it's more a conflict of culture/attitudes. After all, soldiers also go out into the towns on certain missions to support the local populace, which generates goodwill (hopefully countering ...badwill?... from incidents like these.)

Daddy Love,

Speeding up towards a checkpoint is somewhat ridiculous. As noted, there are usually (multiple) signs indicating the presence of one, and proper actions, as well as consequences.

LnGrrrR,

I hope that you and your family are killed in a hail of gunfire by by a police officer at a drunk driving checkpoint, you evil fuck.

And can you imagine orders going down the chain of command asking U.S. soldiers to radically increase their chances of getting killed in order to somewhat reduce the odds of Iraqis being killed in good faith mistakes?

If they truly want to win, then yes. The insightful military historian Martin van Creveld has argued that a primary reason the British have not lost in Northern Ireland is that they have taken more casualties than they have inflicted. Obviously the US military in Iraq falls short on this metric by an order of magnitude or more. And it is not credible to believe that the American public (or the service members serving in Iraq) would be willing to endure such a high cost. So if we're not willing to do what it takes to win, then yes, we should just get out.

Firing 200 rounds from a M249 would take ~10-13 seconds. Seems like a hell of a long time to be firing after a "split second" decision!

but it's clear that Jonah is smart enough to realize deep down what a fraud he is.

No its not.

I hope that you and your family are killed in a hail of gunfire by by a police officer at a drunk driving checkpoint, you evil fuck.


Obviously written by a dickhead who's never manned a checkpoint a second in his life.

but it's clear that Jonah is smart enough to realize deep down what a fraud he is.

No its not.

I hope that you and your family are killed in a hail of gunfire by by a police officer at a drunk driving checkpoint, you evil fuck.


Obviously written by a dickhead who's never manned a checkpoint a second in his life.

A horrific story.

Truly.

I'm thus not being facetious when I say it's a shame Spencer Ackerman can't write at the highschool level.

He can't. It really is a shame.

I went to the link assuming Matt had just botched the transcript. But no, that's the actually incoherent paragraph.

Again: I don't want to trivialize the revolting importance of what's detailed. But, man, Ackerman needs to find an editor or a co-writer. Or he needs to start attending some sort of remedial Freshman Comp class.

I apologize for being an asshole, but the above is illiterate.

Ackerman would be doing the people he cares about, his stories and his readers a great favor if he took measures to somehow produce coherent prose. A partner might be the answer. He could report; the other could write it up.


"You use checkpoints to control the movement of people and munitions. Without them, it would be a helluva lot easier for insurgents to move fighters and weapons."

Completely false. Does absolutely nothing to stop insurgent movements of weapons and personnel.

As is obvious, since we haven't seen one single study indicating HOW MANY insurgents have been captured at checkpoints. And we would have if any significant number had actually been caught.

Why? Because the insurgents know where the checkpoints are within minutes of their being set up and either don't go through them - or use them as attack points for car bombers and snipers.

Watch the "Baghdad sniper" videos - they're all about the snipers targeting the US morons standing around at checkpoints with signs on them saying, "I'm an American moron! Shoot me!"

Worse, the checkpoints are frequently set up on a moment's notice - meaning that an Iraqi family that went THAT WAY a half hour ago doesn't realize that when they go back THAT WAY a half hour later, there's a new checkpoint - in the dark, poorly visible, despite all the bullcrap about how the US troops do this so "professionally" with waving flashlights, bull horns, warning shots, warning shots "into the grill" (yeah, right) and the rest of that crap.

Go reread the account of the shooting of the Italian journalist a couple years ago at a US checkpoint.

The reality is that US troops have poor training, poor weapons control, and are scared to death of being blown up because their tactics are stupid.

I was in a bunker with my platoon in Vietnam at Vung Ro Bay after Vung Ro was attacked in June, 1998. I watched my team mates scared to death, hearing noises out in the jungle which my excellent hearing could not detect at all.

I remember the stupid 2nd Louie telling us that if we saw anything not to open fire. I remember the machine gunner telling us after the 2nd left that "if that asshole tries to prevent me from shooting, I'm gonna deck him."

This is the sort of troops you have manning checkpoints in Iraq. Morons. The worse morons are the morons who think such tactics have any value.

Not to mention that the US does not have enough troops to make such tactics work. The proper ratio for an insurgency is 20 troops per thousand population - essentially a platoon IN EVERY NEIGHBORHOOD. Do the math for Iraq. We would need 500,000 troops in Iraq to do that sort of population control.

And even then, you can run an urban insurgency if you're smart enough - and the Iraqis are.

Glossing over this stupid crap by saying, "Well, you have to do it" is idiotic.

LarryM,

Have you ever been overseas manning a checkpoint? A drunk driving checkpoint in the states is a very pedestrian affair, opposed to a military checkpoint in a foreign country, especially one with as much strife as Iraq.

What's evil about questioning the reasons for a car speeding towards a checkpoint, and being regretful that it turned out not to be a threat?

Would any of us claim it was horrible if it turned out to be a 'bad guy'? As stated before, no one's blaming the soldier, so what is evil of me to ask if the person driving the car was to blame?

LnGrrrR

Listen asshole, I have some sympathy for the soldier at the checkpoint. I have no sympathy for the evil monsters who put him there, who should, as I stated before, be hanged by the neck until dead as war criminals (after a fair trial, of course).

And as for your disgusting attempt to blame the victim, please just put a gun to your head and pull the trigger. It will make the world a much better place.

To the moron arguing up above that "people shouldn't drive fast near checkpoints" the whole point of the checkpoints, presumably, was to find and stop terrorists. Since the people killed were *not terrorists* but an innocent family that proves that *driving fast* and *missing the checkpoint* are both possible and not signs that the cars occupants are dangerous. So any system that routinely shoots people who *are not terrorists* is a system that is 1) missing the real terrorists
2) not necessary because the terrorists are doing something else
3) counter-fucking-productive because in killing innocent civilians it produces more terrorists.

The people who think this makes the slightest sense are the same idiots who insist that nursing monthers empty their bottles of baby milk, and passengers empty their water bottles, 100 percent of the time to locate .000000001 percent of the flying passengers who might possibly be terrorists. its stupid and counterproductive and yet it looks like doing something to the people in charge.
aimai

To the moron arguing up above that "people shouldn't drive fast near checkpoints" the whole point of the checkpoints, presumably, was to find and stop terrorists. Since the people killed were *not terrorists* but an innocent family that proves that *driving fast* and *missing the checkpoint* are both possible and not signs that the cars occupants are dangerous. So any system that routinely shoots people who *are not terrorists* is a system that is 1) missing the real terrorists
2) not necessary because the terrorists are doing something else
3) counter-fucking-productive because in killing innocent civilians it produces more terrorists.

The people who think this makes the slightest sense are the same idiots who insist that nursing monthers empty their bottles of baby milk, and passengers empty their water bottles, 100 percent of the time to locate .000000001 percent of the flying passengers who might possibly be terrorists. its stupid and counterproductive and yet it looks like doing something to the people in charge.
aimai

I would also add to this the following article which establishes that the US military in Iraq is deliberately attempting to inflate body counts.

Killing by the numbers

In 2007 elite U.S. snipers executed an unarmed Iraqi prisoner in cold blood. Have the insidious tactics that led to atrocities in Vietnam reemerged in Iraq?

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/05/09/snipers/

Money Quotes:

Three snipers with exemplary military records from the 1st Battalion of the 25th Infantry Division's 501st Regiment were charged in Khudair's killing. They were tried by the military judicial system in Iraq beginning in 2007. But the most important question raised by his death remains unanswered. Why would these elite American soldiers kill an unarmed prisoner in cold blood? The answer: pressure from their commanding officers to pump up a statistic straight out of America's last long war against an intractable insurgency.

A review of thousands of pages of documents from the legal proceedings obtained by Salon shows that in the months prior to Khudair's death, the young snipers, already frustrated by guerrilla tactics, were pressed to their physical limits and pushed by officers to stretch the bounds of the laws of war in order to increase the enemy body count. When the United States wallowed in Vietnam's counterinsurgency quagmire decades ago, the same pressure placed on soldiers resulted in some of the worst atrocities of that war. A paratrooper who remembered the insidious influence of body counts in Vietnam warned Salon in 2005 that the practice could also ensnare good soldiers in Iraq. "The problem is that in Iraq, we are in a guerrilla war," said Dennis Stout. "How do you keep score? How do you prove you are winning?"

The pressure from above for more bodies was also toxic in Iraq, where the isolated, outnumbered and outgunned snipers of the 1st Battalion had to make split-second life-or-death decisions. When those decisions landed them in a military court, it was the lowest-ranking soldiers, not the brass, who paid the price, and a sergeant who said he was pushed into taking a fatal shot who wound up with a long prison sentence. It was battalion commander Lt. Col Robert Balcavage, who pushed for a higher body count, who initiated the prosecution of three of the battalion's snipers. "Yes, the chain of command deserves to burn in hell," one sniper who served with the unit wrote Salon in an e-mail. "But I am not going on record saying that, well, cause I am still in the fucking Army."

The Law of Armed Conflict requires soldiers to identify "hostile intent" before pulling the trigger. "You have to decide if the individual you are looking at is a combatant or a civilian," explained Scott Silliman, executive director of the Center on Law, Ethics and National Security at Duke Law. "You must conclude that the individual is a combatant." There is no requirement that a target be armed, but he can't be hors de combat -- injured, surrendering or detained.

The nature of guerrilla warfare makes it difficult, however, to nail down exactly what that means on the battlefield. Lt. Matthew Didier, the officer directly in charge of the snipers, offered a tautology in one hearing late last year, explaining that the snipers could shoot if they had "reasonable certainty that the military target is, in fact, a military target." Knight, the senior noncommissioned officer in the battalion, told Army investigators who later looked into the killing of unarmed Iraqis that the snipers were instructed that they could fire when they had "reasonable certainty that someone is committing acts of violence against coalition forces or Iraqis."

The snipers remained nervous because, at best, the guidelines they were getting from their commanders were nebulous. The snipers felt they were being pressured to interpret "hostile intent" loosely to justify kills. During testimony, sniper Spc. Joshua Michaud said that Lt. Col. Balcavage and Command Sgt. Maj. Knight "constantly pushed for 'If you feel threatened, you know, obviously eliminate the threat.' But they kind of said it in a manner in which a lot of us took it like, 'Hey, you need to go out there and you guys gotta start getting kills.'"

At worst, the rules explicitly allowed the killing of unarmed Iraqis under certain circumstances, a particularly dicey concept given an enemy that does not wear a uniform and hides among civilians. Specifically, the snipers were allowed to shoot unarmed people running away from explosions or firefights. The chain of command was particularly frustrated by insurgents fleeing after attacks from roadside bombs, called improvised explosive devices. The notes from Army agents who later investigated the shootings said the battalion leaders, Balcavage and Knight, worried that the snipers had "let a lot of guys go after IED explosions." The snipers called these fleeing, sometimes unarmed Iraqis "squirters." Of course, it's not unusual for innocent people to run from explosions.

Didier, who has since been promoted to captain, said that "if that individual makes contact with you and then breaks contact of their own accord and disarms themselves while they are breaking contact, they are still an engageable target because they are not wounded, nor did they surrender." He explained, "They are only breaking contact so that they can engage coalition forces at a later time." In court, Sgt. Anthony Murphy, one of the snipers who was responsible for a questionable kill, testified that he interpreted this order about breaking contact so they can engage at a later time as: "Engage fleeing local nationals without weapons."

Can you say, "morons"? I knew you could.

This is just stupid tactics. The very notion of just wandering around shooting people who MIGHT be insurgents is idiotic. Either you target the enemy in charge and get some results or don't waste your time. Do these morons really think that just by randomly shooting individual insurgents that some day there won't be any more? What kind of stupid thinking is that? Every one they shoot generates two more. That IS what counterinsurgency is supposed to be combating - that very effect.

If Petraeus supports this crap, he's an idiot.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-07-31/fm3_07x31.pdf

From the Army Field Manual on checkpoints:

a. Roadblocks and CPs are a means of controlling movement on roads, tracks, and footpaths. A roadblock is used to block or close a route to vehicle or pedestrian traffic. Checkpoints may have a more limited and specific purpose, usually apparent from their title, as vehicle CP, personnel CP etc. For simplicity, they are all referred to as roadblocks. Roadblocks are set up for one or more of the following reasons: (1) Maintain a broad check on road movement to increase security and the assurance of the local population. (2) Frustrate the movement of arms or explosives. (3) Assist in the enforcement of movement control of people and material. (4) Gather information and related data on suspected persons, vehicles, and movement.

Everything you ever wanted to know about checkpoints but were afraid to ask is in Section IV-3.

RSH,

That's why I wanted to know what type of checkpoint it was, and how it was set up. Permanent checkpoints (for instance, ones leading to military bases) seem to work much better than temporarily erected ones. Don't have any metrics/training on this though, just admittedly limited experience.

And really, the people who are sickeningly defending the murder of innocents in this incident are missing the point. It may well be true that the very nature of a checkpoint in a nation occupied by a foriegn power trying to defeat an insurgency aimed at ending that occupation makes incidents like this inevitable. That's all the more reason why we shouldn't conduct such occupatons, and all the more reason why the architects of the occupation deserve to pay the ultimate price.

LarryM,

If you're a rational person, and a skeptic, then it's only natural you question both sides. What is so evil about asking whether the driver was driving too fast? If the picture showed that he was given ample information to stop in time, would it still be evil to suggest he was acting improperly? Though I doubt your rational credentials, as you're perfectly fine with me shooting myself due to questioning the incident.

I disagree with the war as well, and think the atrocities not only allowed but ENCOURAGED at the highest levels are disgusting. That has nothing to do with whether or not the person driving disregarded any signs.

Aimai,

Checkpoints involve routinely shooting innocents? Have numbers on that one?

LarryM,

I agree we shouldn't be over there in the first place. However, we ARE there, and as such, I'd like to see if the checkpoints we are using are adequate and well-prepared (meaning the driver would be at-fault) or they're hasty and poor (meaning we should develop better checkpoint or work up better tactics).

It's not so much a matter of blaming the driver, as determining who was at fault, and, if it was the fault of the checkpoint, to determine better ways to carry out these aims/goals.

Fred:

This could just as well have happened during a humanitarian intervention you would presumably support.

This is the sort of claim that folks on the right make all the time, as a point of rhetoric. But this is a factual assertion. Is it true? How many of these types of incidents occurred in, say, Bosnia?

APS

Checkpoints involve routinely shooting innocents? Have numbers on that one?

The story above was something presented at the winter soldier meeting. I can't look it up right now but I think it's in the archives at wbai.org. There are a whole shitload of these stories and basically the ROE guarantees you have no idea who you are killing if you doing things properly.

"Roadblocks are set up for one or more of the following reasons:


No, everything you want to know on checkpoints is NOT included there.

What IS included there are the stupid rationales for checkpoints, NONE of which are effective in practice on the ground.

The US military has a lot of notions about how to conduct warfare, let alone COIN, which are not effective on the ground.

Take these points one at a time:

"(1) Maintain a broad check on road movement to increase security and the assurance of the local population."

What the fuck does that even mean? A "broad check on road movement"? Does that mean "if nobody drives, nobody can move material?" Duh!

"The assurance of the local population"? "Uh, yeah, we're here protecting you from the insurgency." Yeah, right, homey.

"(2) Frustrate the movement of arms or explosives."

Right - clearly has been effective in Iraq AFTER THE US MILITARY LEFT A MILLION TONS OF EXPLOSIVES AND WEAPONS LYING AROUND AFTER THE INVASION IN UNSECURED AMMO DEPOTS.

Morons. As I said, the insurgency knows perfectly well when and where checkpoints are set up. They have CELLPHONES and INFORMANTS!

3) Assist in the enforcement of movement control of people and material."

Merely a restatement of point one. Stupid.

"(4) Gather information and related data on suspected persons, vehicles, and movement."

Excuse me? If you have an insurgent stopped at your checkpoint, you ARREST HIS ASS. You don't "gather information" on him. And as soon as you do arrest his ass, they gain more intelligence on YOU than you do on him - because they will change their routes to avoid that checkpoint. Suspected vehicles? What, the insurgents register their vehicles, then repeatedly use the same ones to move their operations? "Hey, we saw that car blow up last week!"

Movement? Insurgents go where the targets are. If you know where their targets are - i.e., where YOU are - you know where THEY are - when they are attacking you. When you can't do anything about that is where you have a PROBLEM. When you don't know where they are when they are NOT attacking you is your actual PROBLEM. Watching their vehicles is not going to solve that problem.

Infiltrating their organization or gaining intelligence from current or former members of their organization is the ONLY way to deal with that problem. And foreign military forces are not capable of using those methods because they are not indigenous to the country and do not have the street cred to use those methods.

Which is why five years after invading Iraq, the US military STILL has almost zero penetration of the Iraqi insurgency and not much apparent comprehension of the composition, motivations or capabilities of the various insurgent organizations. Which is why the US military has arrested thousands of Iraqis who have nothing to do with the insurgency and used torture to try to get useful information.

Anybody who can't figure out that this is total bullshit hasn't got basic reasoning ability.

"It's not so much a matter of blaming the driver, as determining who was at fault, and, if it was the fault of the checkpoint, to determine better ways to carry out these aims/goals."

No, genius. The problem is that the TACTIC IS STUPID.

What part of that don't you get?

If you apply this tactic, it doesn't matter how good you are at doing so if the tactic itself is stupid.

The end result of establishing checkpoints is that the troops manning them become TARGETS - and then anybody near them becomes "the enemy" - and then you end up with dead civilians.

This is a natural "one-two-three" progression that anybody with any knowledge of the history of guerrilla warfare - namely, the "great counterinsurgency expert", General David Petraeus - should instantly understand. The minute his boots hit the ground in Iraq, checkpoints should have been abandoned.

ANY deployment of US troops in an obvious manner should have been abandoned in favor of using camouflaged counterintelligence methods, similar to what Navy SEALS have done in Beirut and elsewhere. Dump the uniforms, dress like the locals, go into deep cover, start bribing people who might know things and can be bribed for information. Even then, your odds of being able to do more than take out a few cells is problematical. Getting to the leaders is extremely unlikely unless they are easily betrayed because the majority of the population don't like them.

Look how long it took to get Saddam or his sons, for Christ's sakes. You'd have thought he could be found in twenty minutes. It took General Odierno MONTHS to even get close, all the while claiming Saddam's capture was right around the corner.

Of course, none of that would make the slightest difference at this point. With scores of thousands of insurgents in Iraq, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the US military to "win" anything even remotely resembling a "victory" or even a "stalemate".

Which means all the civilian shootings - not to mention all the air strikes on civilian neighborhoods - have been a complete and utter waste of civilian life.

So arguing over whether the checkpoints are "done right" is nothing to the purpose.

A lot of people here also don't seem to realize how orderly American driving conditions are compared to the rest of the world. Whenever members of any military (including our own) go to neighboring Kuwait on official business, the soldiers are forced to attend lectures on avoiding being killed in the traffic, which is apparently the most dangerous in the world outside of Somalia (a classmate of mine used to talk about how when he was with the Korean military in Kuwait, people would actually crash into their military vehicles and then get mad at the soldiers). Americans think drivers in New York and Boston are crazy, but outside the first world New Yorkers and Bostonians are considered timid drivers. Living in Beijing, I wonder why I don't see more people die (China has about half the cars on its roads we have but twice the accidents). Basically we're saying to Iraqis adopt our traffic norms or we are going to kill you and your entire family and its your own damn fault if you die. Don't you see how this can create resentment?

Steven,

What part of this statement didn't you understand?

"It's not so much a matter of blaming the driver, as determining who was at fault, and, if it was the fault of the checkpoint, TO DETERMINE BETTER WAYS TO CARRY OUT THESE AIMS/GOALS."

And yes, you are right in your larger point, but you're discussing the strategy overall of the war, and I'm discussing whether checkpoints are useful/properly applied.

I don't have formal training, but it would seem to me that checkpoints should only really be used for hardened facilities, such as bases or outposts. I'll have to do research for checkpoints of the like being set up in Iraq. (Sadly, I doubt there are metrics released.)

Yes, checkpoints are useful for hardened facilities.

What has that go to do with what is under discussion here?

What you SAID was:

"I'd like to see if the checkpoints we are using are adequate and well-prepared (meaning the driver would be at-fault) or they're hasty and poor (meaning we should develop better checkpoint or work up better tactics)."

And I pointed out that all that was completely bass-ackwards because the entire concept of checkpoints at all is WRONG,

And the reason I am discussing the overall strategy is because strategy determines your tactics, not the other way around.

Therefore discussing checkpoints is a waste of time, because checkpoints are USELESS in COIN - and in fact, COIN is useless unless it is conducted by the indigenous military - NOT a foreign military.

There is no way to perform COIN effectively as a foreign occupier - with the possible exception of actually being invited by a government which IS popular with the indigenous people and where the indigenous people have no complaint against the United States.

Now find me a country outside of maybe Japan where those conditions might be even remotely true. I don't think even Switzerland would qualify, let alone Iraq.

The only successful application of COIN I can think of in recent decades is the Bolivian elimination of Che Guevara - because he was a foreigner, had no local support, and was a small, localized insurgency.

You can't even count "The Awakening" in Iraq against Al Qaeda in Iraq because 1) some of the members of the "Awakening" groups ARE former members of Al Qaeda in Iraq, and 2) they signed up with the US solely because they decided they couldn't fight the US and the Shia at the same time, and 3) they have no intention of stopping fighting against the Shia in the future.

So that isn't exactly a COIN success story.

COIN is a joke concept with a very limited application. Anybody who thinks Petraeus understands it is very naive. By definition, in Iraq, he doesn't.

Richard,

I'm afraid I don't have a broad depth of understanding on COIN operations, so I can't debate with you there. I will say that, given Petraeus' installment as CENTCOM Commander, and Robert Gates' recent words, that it looks like "classical warfare" is going to be dimmed down, in light of this new COIN (or whatever they will call it.)

This whole thread assumes that the car in question was speeding towards the checkpoint in an unreasonable way.

I submit that we don't have enough information to know that. There is always another side to these stories and we don't know that one. We can expect that when civilians are killed in such an incident the shooter will be inclined to exaggerate the threat in his description. This is just human nature.

You are right on target Richard. David Hackworth would be proud.

"Basically we're saying to Iraqis adopt our traffic norms or we are going to kill you and your entire family and its your own damn fault if you die. Don't you see how this can create resentment?"

If there weren't a constant threat of car bombings that have killed tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, I might buy your idea that Iraqis ought to be able to continue to drive like crazy Arabs and speed directly at military checkpoints, ignoring repeated warnings. But if the Iraqis have two brain cells to rub together they'd realize that this sort of crazy, aggressive driving is how car bombers drive, and maybe they ought not drive like car bombers.

If we got rid of all the checkpoints, we might save the lives of a half-dozen innocent-but-stupid Iraqi drivers, but then thousands more Iraqi civilians would get killed by car bombers. That doesn't seem like a humane outcome.

And if wishes were ponies, we'd have a pony in every young girl's house!

Given that the checkpoints are a) demonstrably not stopping car bombers (you better believe that if a checkpoint *ever* caught a carbomber, General Petroleum would call a press conference and announced that it was made with Iranian bombs and President Darth Cheney would immediately order airstrikes against Iran), and b) demonstrably have killed over 1,000 innocent Iraqis (*not* dozens as claimed by the above poster), I prefer to go with what can be seen and observed, rather than hypotheticals like "if wishes were ponies we'd have ponies in all young girls' bedrooms" or "if checkpoints didn't exist we'd have thousands more dead from car bombs." Sorry. It's that whole "reality" habit that I just can't kick no matter how much delusional thinking I'm exposed to -- I mean, who should I believe, your hypotheticals or my own two eyeballs?!

The fact remains that we are an occupier in a foreign and alien land that we don't understand, and thus any sort of anti-insurgency operations conducted by our own military are, by definition, futile. Insurgencies are defeated via counterintelligence, not via military force. Even Joseph Stalin understood that one -- after the Red Army failed utterly to put down the Ukrainian insurgency after WWII, Stalin pulled them out and sent in the NKVD secret police and special forces, who then infiltrated the insurgency until if three insurgents met, two were probably NKVD moles. That strategy terminated the insurgency within four years. And note that the Red Army had the advantage that Ukrainians all knew and understood Russian due to hundreds of years of Russian rule, and due to the hundreds of years of Russian rule had basically the same culture as the Ukrainians -- neither of which applies to our Iraq adventure, where most Iraqis do not understand English and the average American has no more knowledge of Iraqi culture than he has of Martian culture.

Now, that said, there *is* a way to win against an insurgency using conventional military forces. It is the way that the British used against the Boer in the Boer War, or that the U.S. used against the Filipinos in the Filipino-American War. It is best described by Joseph Stalin, once again: "No people, no problem." I.e., genocide. Kill all military age young men, gather up all the women and children into concentration camps, and voila. Of course, then the women and children are dependent upon the logistical tail of your army for their food, water, housing, and clothing, which is most definitely not up to the task of providing these necessities for 20,000,000 people, so after a few months you end up with 15,000,000 corpses, but hey, what's a few million dead wogs, wot? We killed about a million Filipinos out of a population of five million on Luzon Island, mostly via starvation and disease in the concentration camps, but hey, we won, and that's all that matters, what's a little genocide amongst friends anyhow, right? Right?

So yeah, we could win in Iraq via military force -- if we wanted to surpass Nazi Germany as the biggest committer of genocide in world history. Is that what you want? If so... well, there's not much I need to say about that, hmm?

And if wishes were ponies, we'd have a pony in every young girl's house!

Given that the checkpoints are a) demonstrably not stopping car bombers (you better believe that if a checkpoint *ever* caught a carbomber, General Petroleum would call a press conference and announced that it was made with Iranian bombs and President Darth Cheney would immediately order airstrikes against Iran), and b) demonstrably have killed over 1,000 innocent Iraqis (*not* dozens as claimed by the above poster), I prefer to go with what can be seen and observed, rather than hypotheticals like "if wishes were ponies we'd have ponies in all young girls' bedrooms" or "if checkpoints didn't exist we'd have thousands more dead from car bombs." Sorry. It's that whole "reality" habit that I just can't kick no matter how much delusional thinking I'm exposed to -- I mean, who should I believe, your hypotheticals or my own two eyeballs?!

The fact remains that we are an occupier in a foreign and alien land that we don't understand, and thus any sort of anti-insurgency operations conducted by our own military are, by definition, futile. Insurgencies are defeated via counterintelligence, not via military force. Even Joseph Stalin understood that one -- after the Red Army failed utterly to put down the Ukrainian insurgency after WWII, Stalin pulled them out and sent in the NKVD secret police and special forces, who then infiltrated the insurgency until if three insurgents met, two were probably NKVD moles. That strategy terminated the insurgency within four years. And note that the Red Army had the advantage that Ukrainians all knew and understood Russian due to hundreds of years of Russian rule, and due to the hundreds of years of Russian rule had basically the same culture as the Ukrainians -- neither of which applies to our Iraq adventure, where most Iraqis do not understand English and the average American has no more knowledge of Iraqi culture than he has of Martian culture.

Now, that said, there *is* a way to win against an insurgency using conventional military forces. It is the way that the British used against the Boer in the Boer War, or that the U.S. used against the Filipinos in the Filipino-American War. It is best described by Joseph Stalin, once again: "No people, no problem." I.e., genocide. Kill all military age young men, gather up all the women and children into concentration camps, and voila. Of course, then the women and children are dependent upon the logistical tail of your army for their food, water, housing, and clothing, which is most definitely not up to the task of providing these necessities for 20,000,000 people, so after a few months you end up with 15,000,000 corpses, but hey, what's a few million dead wogs, wot? We killed about a million Filipinos out of a population of five million on Luzon Island, mostly via starvation and disease in the concentration camps, but hey, we won, and that's all that matters, what's a little genocide amongst friends anyhow, right? Right?

So yeah, we could win in Iraq via military force -- if we wanted to surpass Nazi Germany as the biggest committer of genocide in world history. Is that what you want? If so... well, there's not much I need to say about that, hmm?

"A lot of people here also don't seem to realize how orderly American driving conditions are compared to the rest of the world. Whenever members of any military (including our own) go to neighboring Kuwait on official business, the soldiers are forced to attend lectures on avoiding being killed in the traffic, which is apparently the most dangerous in the world outside of Somalia (a classmate of mine used to talk about how when he was with the Korean military in Kuwait, people would actually crash into their military vehicles and then get mad at the soldiers). Americans think drivers in New York and Boston are crazy, but outside the first world New Yorkers and Bostonians are considered timid drivers. Living in Beijing, I wonder why I don't see more people die (China has about half the cars on its roads we have but twice the accidents). Basically we're saying to Iraqis adopt our traffic norms or we are going to kill you and your entire family and its your own damn fault if you die."

While I can see how this would create resentment, this is the first time anyone has put forward a rationale for putting the US military in Iraq that makes sense and describes how they might do some good.

As for car driving in general, I thought everybody knew by now that outside the US and maybe England, everybody on the planet drives like lunatics.

I mean, what's the standard joke about Italy? That two crazy Italian drivers crash into each other and start screaming in Italian! Hell, it happens in New York!

I read about crazy drivers in the world decades ago.

Apparently somebody forgot to schedule those lectures referenced in the post above to the troops in Iraq. You'd think the troops could at least use their own eyes while in Iraqi traffic and LEARN that Iraqis don't drive well. But that would entail paying attention to "hajis" - the Iraqi equivalent of "gooks" in Vietnam - and I know from my experience in Vietnam that US troops aren't into that.

And that is why no amount of "COIN" is going to work.

upthread someone wrote: "Jonah knows in his heart he wrote a shitty fraudulent book."

i don't believe it, because i don't think jonah
is smart enough to do any kind of abstract thinking. his la times columns are so stupid that no one in the blogosphere even bothers to make fun of them.


Comments closed May 29, 2008.

Copyright © 2008 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.