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Why Negotiate?

21 May 2008 05:25 pm

Noah Pollack being dense as usual is a good opportunity to repeat something:

Why is McCain allowing himself to be dragged into a debate about presidential-level diplomacy, when the more important question — and the question whose answer is more politically favorable to McCain — is whether diplomatic engagement will actually get anything accomplished? McCain should be asking Obama what concessions he realistically thinks he’s going to get from the Iranians upon going hat in hand to Tehran. UN Security Council sanctions have done virtually nothing to impede Iran, nor have EU diplomacy or IAEA reports. Russia and China continue to stand as the major impediments to the kind of UN sanctions that might so cripple Iran that it would give up its nuclear development.

The problem here is that, once again, we see hawks not understanding what diplomacy is. But think of diplomacy as a kind of bargaining. Like you might do at a yard sale or something. Diplomacy doesn't exist at one end of a spectrum of coercive measures -- we try war, we try sanctions, we try diplomacy -- any more than bargaining operates on a smooth continuum with robbery. The point of bargaining with a vendor is to see whether or not it's possible to find mutually acceptable terms that improve both parties' positions. In terms of diplomacy with Iran, the idea isn't that Obama's steely gaze would force concessions out of the Iranians, the idea is that we might be able to give Iran something Iran deems more valuable than weapons-grade nuclear material, and in exchange we would get verifiable disarmament.

The "something" here would presumably be some form of security assurances plus an accommodation to Iranian interests in Iraq, along with Teheran and Washington laying out a pathway to gradual normalization of relations in exchange for an end to Iranian support for terrorism and Palestinian rejectionist groups. Would it be possible to strike such a deal? Maybe, maybe not. But the purpose of a negotiating session would be to find out by attempting to do the bargaining rather than having five more years of back-and-forth blog posts speculating about the possibility. The general theory of diplomacy is that rational actors should, through negotiations, be able to achieve positive-sum settlements rather than negative-sum conflicts. It's always possible that your would-be negotiating partner will prove irrational (as George W. Bush did when he rejected Iranian peace overtures several years back) and the process will fail, but it's worth attempting in good faith.

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Comments (107)

Appeaser!

So fitting that Yglesias provides the smack-down to Sully's pathetic "Yglesias Award Winner" of the day. Keep up the good work. You're on fire today.

when the more important question — and the question whose answer is more politically favorable to McCain — is whether diplomatic engagement will actually get anything accomplished?

Right, 'cause John McSame could just say "it's the year 2013, and diplomacy has accomplished nothing."

Game over.
.

But the purpose of a negotiating session would be to find out by attempting to do the bargaining rather than having five more years of back-and-forth blog posts speculating about the possibility.

Do you really think no one in the State department is talking to no one in Iran? Seriously?

What Obama is talking about is a face-to-face Presidential meeting. There's not really any point to that unless there is something to announce. There's nothing to announce because Iran wants a free hand to develop nuclear weapons and project influence over the Middle East and we won't give it to them. We have no carrots to trade them to prevent them from doing so, so we keep threatening the stick: bombing campaigns.

This whole "debate" about meeting them vs. not meeting them is just posturing on both sides. If Obama thinks we should be offering something we're not, he should say so.

To carry the analogy further, it would appear that wingers of McCain's and Bush's ilk view diplomacy as a zero-sum game--if we give anything to the Iranians, they've won, and we're appeasers. It's stupider than schoolyard logic....

Once again Matt misses the point.

No one is against diplomacy. Some of us are against broadcasting your diplomatic strategy in advance to America's adversaries and boxing oneself into unconditional meetings with leaders of rogue regimes.

Tim K wrote: "No one is against diplomacy. Some of us are against broadcasting your diplomatic strategy in advance to America's adversaries and boxing oneself into unconditional meetings with leaders of rogue regimes."

John McCain has a secret plan to end the war against Islamofascism!

I agree with the post's general point about diplomacy, but I think you overstate and oversimplify it in certain ways. In particular, I wouldn't place too much emphasis on this:
-----------
QUOTE:"The general theory of diplomacy is that rational actors should, through negotiations, be able to achieve positive-sum settlements rather than negative-sum conflicts."
-----------
In general, those kinds of theoretical statements are not very reliable in predicting the actual behavior of an individual state. And even if we accept that "general theory" and assume rational actors on both sides, there are still reasons that we can expect costly conflict to sometimes occur instead of mutually beneficial agreement - misperceptions, problems of credible commitment, etc.

One other obvious problem - if Iran believes that their position will be stronger later on (for example, when their nuke program is farther along) they will have an incentive to deliberately prolong unproductive negotiations, rather than attempt to reach any agreement.

Ruling out diplomatic overtures is foolish, but the usefulness and benefits of diplomacy shouldn't be oversold.

Haaretz is reporting that Olmert regards it a "national duty" to join the appeasement camp:

Amid scattered applause, the prime minister said that security along Israel's northern border was the principal source of concern for regional conflagration. "Under these circumstances it's always preferable to speak than to shoot. And I am happy that both sides decided to speak."

This is very good and clever. Trouble is that in a yard sale if no deal is possible you walk away because you conclude that life will go on without that Perry Como LP at $xx.xx - you'll get some other geegaw from the myriad other actors and opportunities of the yard sale of life. But in the international arena the actors are far more limited, the things you want also fewer (verification for US, enriched uranium for Iran), the people who can provide them likewise usually unique, and these things are far, far more important to you.

It may be that the continuum you speak of does not 'exist' in a yard sale because it is so long that its other end is out of sight (unless you are insane about Perry Como). In diplomacy that same spectrum can be remarkably short, like in 1914 or 1939. In the case of Iran it may be that it is far longer than McCain/Bush believe; but it just may be shorter than you or Obama would hope.

Tim K. said... Some of us are against broadcasting your diplomatic strategy in advance to America's adversaries and boxing oneself into unconditional meetings with leaders of rogue regimes.

As I pointed out in the last thread on this topic, you're basically babbling. You took "I would meet without pre-conditions" to be the same as...

discuss publicly, in specific detail, how you are going to conduct your diplomacy: what conditions you will demand, who the meetings will be with, when they will take place, and even if they will. That's the whole point.

As I said before, you've just taken a very basic statement by Obama that had virtually no details and managed to weave your own incredibly detailed fantasy narrative around it.

Exercise for Tim: Why is Obama saying "no pre-conditions" vastly more detailed and telegraphing of intent then McCain saying "only with pre-conditions"? (Hint: Neither statement has any real details.)

BTW, diplomacy with pre-conditions isn't diplomacy, it's a demand.

Some of us are against broadcasting your diplomatic strategy in advance to America's adversaries and boxing oneself into unconditional meetings with leaders of rogue regimes.

Why should the President be afraid of meetings with foreign leaders, conditional or not? It seems that this point of view is based on the premise that simply meeting with our president qualifies as some sort of prize to be doled out to foreign governments on our "good" list. The arrogance is astounding. Talking things over is a good thing. If the person on the other side of the table proves to be irrational after talking, then it can be announced that negotiations have failed and other forms of leverage can be applied as necessary. But seriously, why in God's name would it be "naive" (as Tim K. called it in the previous thread) to announce one's intentions to talk with other people?

Tim, what exactly is the problem with "unconditional meetings with leaders of rogue regimes"? What terrible thing can happen? The idea that refusal to talk with somebody is a valuable pressure tool in itself is crap. It's only a valuable pressure tool if the other side is MORE interested than you in negotiations. ¿What makes you think that Iran is MORE anxious to solve the current crisis than the USA? They don't have 100.000 soldiers stuck in an endless war, you know?

The neocon model of "diplomacy":

1. Invade country.
2. Overthrow government.
3. Install people who like you.
4. Open talks with those people.

Some of us are against broadcasting your diplomatic strategy in advance to America's adversaries

Yeah, like the Hillarity strategy of saying, in essence, 'I'm crazy enough to nuke ya!' How tedious. It's the flipside of American exceptionalism: the capacity to bear 50- and 25-year grudges.

LFC:

Are you honestly asking me to explain to you the difference between no pre-conditions and pre-conditions?

We're not talking about negotiating with or without preconditions. Lower-level diplomats from both sides can talk secretly and freely on a whole range of issues. What we are talking about is promising a face-to-face meeting between a President Obama and a Kim Jong Il or an Ahmadinejad, probably with a public press avail afterward. What exactly would such a meeting accomplish on it's own other than bestowing legitimacy on that person?

Lower-level diplomats from both sides can talk secretly and freely on a whole range of issues. What we are talking about is promising a face-to-face meeting between a President Obama and a Kim Jong Il or an Ahmadinejad, probably with a public press avail afterward. What exactly would such a meeting accomplish on it's own other than bestowing legitimacy on that person?

Indeed, although I don't know that we care so much about the "legitimacy" point. It's just that the entire exercise is pointless unless you have a deal determined in advance. There's no deal in the offing, so why would Obama meet with them? Surely he doesn't need to shake hands with Ahmadinejad in order for terms to be reached.

There is some serious misunderstanding on this blog about what Obama is proposing and what McCain is proposing. It's 99% posturing without any difference. The remaining 1% indicates Obama wants to strike a deal for the sake of doing so, while McCain doesn't -- which is not very clarifying.

I really don't see what incetive Iran has to make any kind of deal. Do you really think all Iran wants are "security assurances"? It's pretty obvious to anyone that the US isn't going to attack Iran being so bogged down in Iraq. Such assurances are therefore meaningless and therefore so is the premise of Matt's entire argument.

In terms of diplomacy with Iran, the idea isn't that Obama's steely gaze would force concessions out of the Iranians, the idea is that we might be able to give Iran something Iran deems more valuable than weapons-grade nuclear material, and in exchange we would get verifiable disarmament.

And herein lies the Bush/McCain problem. Due to the setting of pre-conditions and thus a failure to meet, we don't have a freakin' clue what Iran might deem more valuable than weapons-grade nuclear material. Due to the Bush/McCain rhetoric, there may now be nothing more important to them than obtaining a nuclear weapon. If I was in their shoes, that's the way I would feel with the world's only superpower being led by a trigger happy "shoot first" moron. And McCain's words won't change that view of us. Do you think they're so stupid that they can't see the difference between Pakistan and Iraq?

Can we truly reach an agreement with Iran? I don't know. And neither does Bush or McCain. Why don't they know? Simply for lack of trying. And McCain's "pre-conditions" guarantee that we will continue to not know.

Something Tim K. doesn't understand is that meeting does not necessarily mean negotiation. It can be a simple matter of getting to know what you're up against, and trying determine how another country thinks. That's powerful knowledge. Bush and McCain throw any chance for that away, gaining nothing in return.

And that's the true definition of "naive".

Tim, sorry to inform you, but the government of the USA is currently uncapable of bestowing legitimacy to anybody. Nobody abroad sees a government that uses torture and tries to legalize it as an entity whose recognition is valuable.

matt misses pollack's point, viz: we can't trust those slick persians.

the neocons believe that the iranians are congenitally untrustworthy and will not follow through with any negotiated terms (e.g. ending support for terrorism). hence, negotiating with them is in fact a zero-sum affair in which any concession we make will not be met with positive concessions on their part. if that's your premise going in, then why bother negotiating?

drjmcooper:

You are simply displaying the standard left-wing world-view that has America as simply one country in the world, no more important than any other and not worthy of any special regard or consideration. Call it American Unexceptionalism. You just seem to reduce the President of the United States to the status of Prime Minister of Belgium with a nuclear stockpile.

Carlos:

What could very easily happen is "nothing" in terms of advancing US interests and strategic goals... which would represent wasted time, effort and resources. And the "something" could be giving the opportunity to a rogue regime to stage a PR coup that could undermine political opposition at home. Maybe Ahmadinejad could engineer a meeting with Obama ahead of his next election (where he is in electoral trouble) to bolster his image?

Tim K. said ...Are you honestly asking me to explain to you the difference between no pre-conditions and pre-conditions?

Uh, no. I asked why is one position more detailed than the other. Read ... for comprehension.

You weaved a whole fantasy world on the position of no pre-conditions, ascribing all sorts of details and specific information to a basic statement. It was truly bizarre.

right said... Obama wants to strike a deal for the sake of doing so, while McCain doesn't -- which is not very clarifying.

Man, you're as bad as Tim K. In what fantasy world does "I will talk" equal "I want to strike a deal, any deal"? What planet are you guys on? Are you both hitting the crack pipe? Somebody lays out a very general premise to simply talk with zero details, and you end up with all kinds of bizarre conclusions.

LEARN ... TO ... READ!

LFC:

Read this for comprehension: Obama shouldn't have said whether there would be pre-conditions or not!!

LFC:

I realize nothing gets you more excited than the thought of the President of the United States having a meeting with a brutal tyrant, but you don't have to resort to hyperbole involving drug paraphernalia.

I also realize you think that anyone who is literate would think Barack Obama (aka Soul Healer) is the best thing since sliced bread, but that's also naive.

Obama shouldn't have said whether there would be pre-conditions or not!!

Still missing the point, Timmy. Why not? What harm does it cause? Why are you afraid? How could that possibly effect the possible outcome of talks / negotiations? Here's a worst case scenario for you:

Obama: "Let's talk without pre-conditions."
Iran: "OK. We demand A and B and C and D and E."
Obama: "No."

There, now that's not so scary, is it? It didn't endanger your safety, right? Why are you joining the GOP pants wetters?

I wonder if the Israeli 'peace' move with Syria is to make them look more reasonable if they then bomb Iran.

LFC:

You aren't really listening to what we're saying.

LEARN ... TO ... READ!

I read just fine. There's no need to be an asshole.

In what fantasy world does "I will talk" equal "I want to strike a deal, any deal"?

In the real world, the substantive negotiations do not happen when President Obama sits down to lunch at Camp David with President Ahmadinejad. They happen prior to this with lower level diplomats working out the details. Then Presidents meet to put a smily face on it and shake hands.

Obama is pledging a smily-face meeting with Ahmadinejad for absolutely no purpose. McCain is simply saying there are certain things we demand in negotiations -- i.e. that Iran will not develop nukes. They aren't agreeing to that so we can skip the smily-face time.

Do you actually believe that no one in the State department is talking to anyone at all in Iran? That's not what this debate is about.

...but you don't have to resort to hyperbole involving drug paraphernalia.

Well there has to be some explanation for how somebody can take a simple statement, ignore the actual facts of that statement, and create a colorful and strange fantasy out of it instead. Drugs? Stupidity? Hate? It's something, and that something isn't good.

I also realize you think that anyone who is literate would think Barack Obama (aka Soul Healer) is the best thing since sliced bread, but that's also naive.

Nice. If A then Z. Great logic.

I think you're illiterate because you take a statement and then state things that were never part of, or even intimated by, the original statement. Again, it could be any of the reasons outlined above, or some other pathology, but it certainly isn't logic and it certainly isn't literacy.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to supply me the citation of those 3 "Obama campaign talking points" you alleged that I repeated concerning public funding. Where are they? Or were you just making stuff up to try to score points? Still waiting to hear from you, Timmy.

Note to commenters: Long flame wars with wingnuts render the thread unreadable.

Once again, Matt veers between being unable to say anything substantive on Iran and coming perilously close to revealing his true opinions,

"the idea is that we might be able to give Iran something Iran deems more valuable than weapons-grade nuclear material, and in exchange we would get verifiable disarmament."

First, Iran HAS NO "weapons-grade nuclear material", nor any indication they WANT any.

Second, the IAEA has ALREADY VERIFIED that NONE of the Iranian nuclear assets declared have anything to do with ANY nuclear weapons program. Every single IAEA report has emphasized this.

Third, what the US should be doing is adhering to the NPT which REQUIRES the nuclear nations to assist non-nuclear nations in developing nuclear energy as needed. The US should also be offering Iran security guarantees against attack from the US OR Israel absent any direct threat from Iran to either. In return, the US could ask Iran to ratify the Additional Protocol - which Iran observed for three years despite not having ratified - and allow intrusive inspections. The US could also be pressuring Israel to join the NPT and agree to disarm its nuclear arsenal - to prove to Iran that the US means business.

None of this is going to happen, under Bush, under McCain, under Clinton, or under Obama. While Obama is more likely to be influenced in that direction, while he believes - LIKE MATT - that Iran is a "threat", clearly he will not do this.

Meanwhile, Matt seems to answer my question one here when he HINTS - without being able to say his real opinion - that Iran HAS a nuclear weapons program

Grow some balls, Matt, and answer my two questions.

LFC:

Listen, I want Obama to win the election. I just don't think he's on the right track at this point. Calm down.

the thought of the President of the United States having a meeting with a brutal tyrant

Sigh. For the hundredth time, Ahmadinejad is not a tyrant. One of the necessary conditions for being a tyrant is to actually be in charge. He's not the most powerful person in Iran, and his freedom to act is sharply constrained. Try to keep up.

And right, the State dept. was talking in 2002 to Iran as well, and our chance to strike a mutually beneficial deal against a common enemy (Taliban) was blown out of the water by the dick-swinging "axis of evil" crowd.

Only the weak are afraid of looking weak.

In the real world, the substantive negotiations do not happen when President Obama sits down to lunch at Camp David with President Ahmadinejad.

Presidential talks come in all flavors. Some are big and flashy affairs, other very quiet. Talks can be face to face or on the phone. Ambassadors talk to world leaders all the time.

Just because you have one brand of talking in mind, as betrayed by your term "substantive negotiations", does not mean that other forms can't occur. (Except that in McCain's case, they can't occur.) You have already created a narrative in your head of exactly what these talks consist of, of the groundwork that will take place, etc. The fact is that all of that is complete conjecture, and is based on your world view, not on Obama's statements.


Do you actually believe that no one in the State department is talking to anyone at all in Iran?

About Iraq, I imagine they are. About their nuclear program, I'm not so sure. Judging from the tension, I'd say either "no" or that whatever is being discussed is being ignored by Bush.

"It's pretty obvious to anyone that the US isn't going to attack Iran being so bogged down in Iraq."

You're a fool if you believe that.

It's not "obvious to anyone". It's not obvious to Sy Hersh. It's not obvious to Scott Ritter, who says there's a ninety percent chance. It's not obvious to Philip Giraldi, who says the National Security Council has signed off on an attack on alleged "insurgent camps" in Iran. It's not obvious to Ray McGovern. It's not obvious to a lot of people who are paying attention to what is going on.

It should be obvious that being unable to finish a war with Iraq didn't stop the neocons from starting one.

The Bush-Cheney view is that the Iran war can be started from the air and sea. What happens on the ground later is just so much more war-profiteering, just like Iraq is.

If you can't comprehend that, you're a fool - or a Bush supporter.

LFC:

You have got to be joking. You think the first face-to-face meeting between a US President and the leader of the Iranian government in over 30 years is going to be low-key? Talk about silly season.

Getting away from the merits and on to the politics:

I love the Obama campaign's tactics here. The "no preconditions" line Obama has used in the primaries must look like a horrible gaffe to establishment insiders, who know the "right answer." But if it is a gaffe it is a minor, technical gaffe that boils down how you define "preparation" and "preconditions." That's pretty weak rhetorical sauce.

Meanwhile this "gaffe" opens up the whole issue of the adminstration's approach to diplomacy (i.e., their against it) and lets Obama be Reagan and Kennedy while McCain is Bush.

It's brilliant.

The point to haveing an 'agreement' is that the counterparty to one's agreement future behavior will be different due to the existence of said "agreement".

Thinking that the Iranians will figure in the existence or non existence of any agreement with the US as to what they might or not do in the future is beyond naive, it's ludicrous. The Neville Chamberlain point about appeasement wasn't that he gave the Germans what they wanted in Munich, but that little piece of paper that he waved for the crowd to see on his return having any effect on AH's future behavior was a pretty ridiculous notion.

I don't think taking this into account means we invade Iran, but thinking that making agreements with them will affect what the Iranians might do in the future, beyond changing their take on what the US might or might do, is ridiculous. Therefore negotiating agreements with them is an activity entirely without a point.

You use diplomacy to solve your differences. The idea is to say, let's talk, and see if we both can achieve our goals.

Bush/McCain basically say, you give us what we want up front and then we'll talk. Bush/McCain get it backwards.

That's the opposite of negotiation and doomed to fail.

Of course the other nation/party will just reject the Bush/McCain offer. Then there are really only 2 options left:
1) The situation continues along the same trajectory and gets worse...or
2) Bush/McCain start a war because it's the only way they'll get what is wanted.

I think one reason why Bush/McCain do not want to use diplomacy and talk is because it leaves war as the only inevitable option and the natural working out of the situation.

Be afraid of a McCain presidency...very afraid. He is more bent on war than Bush, and you can bet that he would take us to war against Iran, which would end up being a debacle worse than Iraq.

Leo:

You could be right. I doubt, however, if the average voter really cares that much about diplomacy relative to other issues in deciding where to assign their one vote, however. On the other hand, I think Obama's blunder makes him vulnerable to a McCain 3:00 AM -style argument by making him seem naive and unsteady on foreign policy, and weak in general.

More specifically I think the promise to meet with Raul Castro could hurt him with Cuban Americans, and meeting with Ahmadinejad could whittle down his advantage with Jewish voters. That alone erases any hope of competing in Florida.

Therefore negotiating agreements with (Iran) is an activity entirely without a point.

I'm entirely in agreement that we should not concede large swaths of foreign territory to Iran in return for easily-broken promises to behave well in the future.

You win a point for avoiding the retarded P.R. angle that Tim K. is pushing, but your contention that Iran is pointless because the Iranians will never negotiate in any good-faith or enforcable context is still exactly the same as calling them "evil."

Behold the shifting allegiances of the concern troll.

southpaw:

Calling everyone who criticizes Obama a "troll" is really embarrassingly lacking in class.

Tim,

He isn't calling everyone a Troll, he's calling you specifically one.

In order for a Presidential meeting to have impact, a ton of lower level work has to be done first. Obama claiming that he'll have an open meeting is just pointless - it's like me thinking that I can pick a company, chat up their CEO at an event, and expect to get a software sale out of it.

Like sales, diplomacy basically works bottom up. Your notions of top down diplomacy working are right in line with the increasingly less relevant idea that top down selling works well.

To get a sale, you need a relationship. To get diplomatic engagement, you need a relationship as well. Obama is naive because he thinks he can jump the line and get something to magically happen.

I'm not sure the Iranians are evil because they'd view any agreement made with us as the colloqial legal definition of a verbal contract, worth the paper it was written on. The Europeans are rather cavalier about signing agreements too, let's handicap that they would live up to any Kyoto type agreement they might sign, for example. They might, if they can do it without bothering to try.

So whether or not that's the same as calling them evil, there is no point to negotiating with the Iranians, about anything.

Tim: I think McCain spending the better part of a week explaining why his foreign policy approach will not differ at all from Bush's can do nothing but good for any Democratic candidate.

Note forget the Decemberists and indie bands. Obama got Tom Lehrer's endorsement


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/02/05/DI2008020502027.html

"I am authorized to repeat one more thing about this non-interview, and it is quite appropriate for this very day. Iasked Lehrer if there was anything he'd like to add, in this chat, about the current president. After a bit of pause he said, "Just tell the people that I am voting for Obama." "

That fella Nixon sure knew how to lay down the gauntlet. He'd never talk to no nucular nations astirin' up trouble for our glorius kingdom on the hill--WE AINT NO BELGINS! without no preconditions, oh no.

Now you got uppity sumptin' or nother types going on all weak on us, like thay know not a gotdam thing about histry. And, I tell ya, I am SCARED. Sheet, I got a wet trouser leg, alright.

TimK, haven't you worked it out yet? You live under a bridge, harass goats, and have a terrible personal aroma. The signs are there for you to read. Put on the glasses, face the mirror bravely, and you can start your road to redemption.

Tim K. -

Your "fear" of Obama's stance on Cuba and Iran are exactly why the Democrats in Congress have been such a failure since taking control. Republicans yell BOO!, and the Democrats scatter.
The refreshing thing about Obama is that he confidently presents an alternate point of view on foreign policy. Barack has a simple fact on his side in this argument - Bush's only foreign policy successes have come when he engaged in negotiations. War and "tough talk"? Not so much.

Rontrel translation:

If only the Democrats behaved like European-style Social Democrats they'd have a 67% approval rating and win 300 seats this November.

In your dreams.

As far as substance goes (forgetting matters of U.S. foreign policy attitudes & ideology, and electoral maneuvering), this is one of the single stupidest pseudo-debates I've ever encountered with regard to U.S. foreign policies.

In order for a Presidential meeting to have impact, a ton of lower level work has to be done first.

No shit. Nobody was suggesting that Obama would just click on over to Orbitz, book himself a flight to Tehran, and waltz up to Ahmedijinad for a chat. "Hey Ahmed, what's up buddy?"

Obama claiming that he'll have an open meeting is just pointless

As pointed out above, nobody has said, or implied this. Nice strawman, though.

it's like me thinking that I can pick a company, chat up their CEO at an event, and expect to get a software sale out of it.

In fact, sales are often made this way. While it's unlikely that a stranger could walk right up to some CEO he/she wanted to do business with, under the right circumstances, these types of serendipitous meetings often lead to sales relationships. Not that it's relevant to our discussion.

Like sales, diplomacy basically works bottom up. Your notions of top down diplomacy working are right in line with the increasingly less relevant idea that top down selling works well.

You're analogy is stupid, but, if we were to extend it, I'd say that Obama is actually a more powerful CEO of a bigger company. If the CEO of GE walked up to the CEO of a small startup Video on Demand tech company, the GE CEO could engage in a potentially fruitful conversation with the start-up CEO. The only "advance" work that would have to be done would be finding out where the event is, and ensuring the safety of all parties.

To get a sale, you need a relationship. To get diplomatic engagement, you need a relationship as well. Obama is naive because he thinks he can jump the line and get something to magically happen.

No magic need happen. Obama can pick up the phone, say, "Get me (world leader)" and then speak with them. In what world is this naive? You may think that this type of engagement with our enemies is "pointless" but in what possible way can it hurt? Can anyone explain how this hurts the US. If anyone truly believes that the United States could be damaged by simply talking, you need to get a firmer grasp on reality.

I'm not sure the Iranians are evil because they'd view any agreement made with us as the colloqial legal definition of a verbal contract, worth the paper it was written on. The Europeans are rather cavalier about signing agreements too, let's handicap that they would live up to any Kyoto type agreement they might sign, for example. They might, if they can do it without bothering to try.

Unlike the current U.S. administration that follows Geneva, the rule of law when it comes to torture, the rule of law when it comes to capturing people in friendly countries like Germany, the rule of law when it comes to rendition, etc. Yeah ... right.

I agree that negotiations with Iran won't work at this time, and won't work with McCain. Why? Because only a fool would trust us to keep our part of the bargain. The Bush administration has amply proven that they will ignore any bargain or treaty the moment it suits their purpose.

If only the Democrats behaved like European-style Social Democrats they'd have a 67% approval rating and win 300 seats this November.

In your dreams.

Posted by Tim K

Perhaps, but that's opposed to, what, if Democrats act like DLC / Clinton Democrats they will lose the Congress for a dozen years, like the last time?

One thing that's a definite non-starter with the Iranians is asking them to abandon Hezbollah and Hamas. There's no debate anymore as to who the settlements, settlements, and more settlements "rejectionist" party is. Even Condi Rice or the Shin Bet old hands don't try to ingratiate themselves with Mona Charen anymore on that score. bin laden's recent tape is instructive here- Hezbollah and Hamas have gained enormously in stature over the past 18 months. Christ, even Jeffrey Goldberg has jumped off the ziocon bullshit trolley. He didn't want to get stuck at the Purim 'Singles Night' in Suffern.

Why do people keep insisting that meetings with the head of Iran would involve Ahmadinejad? Do they also expect him to go to the UK to confer with Queen Elizabeth?

Mike wins the thread.

The neocons don't want a secure Iran

That's the whole point. The WMD stuff is pure-d rationalization, the line they hope that they can sell the rubes to get them to buy into their con. We're not going to make the neocons happy by negotiating away Iranian nukes. That would just mess with their grift.

It's not that they don't understand what diplomacy is. They just want something, the destruction of Iran, and indeed the destruction of any furthest and least impediment to Israel, that Iran will never give up in negotiation.

Worst case scenario: we meet with these people, they come off as intransigent a**holes to the rest of the world, and thus they help us regain our standing as the world's official Good Guys.

And who knows--maybe they aren't intransigent a**holes, and we find we do have something to talk about. But again, worst case scenario, we benefit anyways.


Here's a good case for the kind of deal we might be able to make with Iran in negotiations, from the New York Review of Books:

A Solution for the US-Iran Nuclear Standoff

I believe the form of diplomacy being referred to is "jaw-boning". It is the way that GWBush has kept gas prices so low (ht Atrios).

Bush must have known about the Israel/Syria discussions going on in Turkey when he attacked "appeasers", which were either ongoing or on the calendar. Do you suppose he was attacking the Israeli left?

Everyone knows the Israeli left is way less militant (except for them actually serving in the military) than most of our Republicans.

Could he really have been attacking Israeli "appeasers"?

DTM:

No, the worst case scenario is that a dictatorship in Iran or Cuba secures a public relations coup that undermines their domestic political opponents, and the prestige of the US presidency is weakened in the process. Diplomacy isn't some kind of panacea, a no lose proposition that can never back-fire or have unintended consequences. Every tool in the foreign policy tool box (presidential summits, economic sanctions, visa restrictions, use of force) can have consequences, negative and positive, and need to be carefully weighed.

I think many people have learned the wrong lessons from the Bush administration. It is not that they were too tough with America's adversaries, so therefore the next president must over-compensate by being soft. It is that Bush was tough with the wrong folks and used force in the wrong places and to the wrong degrees. I want the next president to be ready to use force where appropriate, and know when to meet with leaders on America's terms and where good things will be accomplished.

Too much damage has been done to America's reputation abroad to afford replacing 4 years of a failed neo-conservative strategy of misplaced aggression with a failed liberal strategy of accommodation at any price.

Bush did know Israel was negotiating with Syria when he called folks that negotiate with enemies "appeasers", according to Mother Jones:

"The Bush administration, which knew the talks were taking place, even as the president was making his controversial remarks, offered reluctant support."

http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/05/8310_syriana_as_jeru.html

The problem is that while militantly refusing all negotiations, Bush has awarded one of the major goals of Iranian foreign policy for centuries without any return- significant influence over Iraq. This is such an important prize, I wonder what else we could offer - Bush has already given the store away. This administration has caused disaster everywhere we look.

The problem is that while militantly refusing all negotiations, Bush has awarded one of the major goals of Iranian foreign policy for centuries without any return- significant influence over Iraq. This is such an important prize, I wonder what else we could offer - Bush has already given the store away. This administration has caused disaster everywhere we look.

The problem is that while militantly refusing all negotiations, Bush has awarded one of the major goals of Iranian foreign policy for centuries without any return- significant influence over Iraq. This is such an important prize, I wonder what else we could offer - Bush has already given the store away. This administration has caused disaster everywhere we look.

the worst case scenario is that a dictatorship in Iran or Cuba secures a public relations coup...

Tim K, please name one instance in all of recorded history when a country has lost face solely as a result of conducting diplomatic relations with another nation. Name one.

What nonsense. Right now, if Cuba's domestic political opposition maintained 100% of some measure of popular support, it means precisely zero for their effect on the political system.

Again, the U.S. has once again helped maintain a tyrannical regime in power by closing off the kinds of contacts which would in measurable fact, as opposed to spiritual measures, increase the strength of civil, political and social movements.

The absurd notion that keeping Cuba isolated from the U.S. (as opposed to from Latin America, Africa, and Europe, most of which ignores the embargo when the U.S. doesn't threaten them too much) somehow has given power to the domestic opposition -- more than any internal moves by the Cuban government -- is ridiculous.

It's an argument that diplomacy is more about metaphor than measurable, objective policy changes.

Which is par for the course, since most of U.S. foreign policy debates -- Iraq, for example -- have almost no grounding in any sort of rational and measurable reality and all about staunch moral declarations, weak and inappropriate metaphors, and stupid analogies.

One wonderful consequence of the Bush diplomacy is actually encouraging other countries to seek a nuclear program by essentially saying: "If you may have nukes, we'll take you seriously - if you don't, we'll invade".

What has been gained by a half dozen years of talks with Iran? Nothing for us. But lots of stalling has gotten the ayatollahs to the threshold of being a nuclear power.

Pretending this is not a problem and everything will be fine if we just "talk" is simplistic and willfully ignorant.

This is a rogue regime that had no respect for diplomatic relations, considering Ahm-a-dim-jihadi himself was one of the "students" that held 52 Americans in our embassy hostage for 444 days. Ask Jimmah Carter what he accomplished by "talking" to them.

Also, you have the example of what talking got us in North Korea: a nuclear North Korea. Congratulations, Chamberlain-lite!

El Cid:

That's actually not the case. Even authoritarian regimes require a certain degree of popular consent in order to govern effectively. It's rather simplistic to ignore that dimension of the debate.

Obama always points to Kennedy negotiating with Khrushchev as an example, but I don't recall ever reading about Kennedy promising an unconditional face-to-face meeting with Khrushchev to take place within the first year of his administration. And while Nixon did go to China and meet with Mao Zedong, it was secret until the last moment and followed years of behind-the-scenes negotiations. It came at the end of a process, not at the beginning as a gesture of good will.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/22/opinion/22thrall.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Here's an article in the NY Times today highlighting one such instance of a presidential meeting strengthening an adversary.

Tim K:

I think that you make some decent points from where you start from, but one of your basic assumptions is wrong. Obama has not to my knowledge promised an unconditional meeting at the time and place of (pick a leader of questionable morality)'s choosing.

my take was that he was saying he would not instantly rule out talking with those people, not that his first rule of business upon taking office would be setting up a face to face with every leader bush won't talk to. i think no preconditions in the context meant that he would not force them to give up something like intrusive nuclear inspections before he would talk with them.

i don't believe that it meant he would naively meet with them at a time that was ripe to give them a pr victory, or without pursuing the proper diplomatic channels etc.

while i see your point that foolish diplomatic talks can have negative consequences, i don't see how being open to talk, given the right circumstances, would hurt.

Another important question is whether we can afford NOT to negotiate. Can we really afford another war when we haven't even finished the one we started?

To think so is to completely and naively ignore reality.

As usual, you don't pay much attention to what you're criticizing. Its spelled Pollak, not Pollack. As one of your acolytes posted here already: learn to read.

As for your theory of diplomacy as bargaining, its really quite interesting. You seem to think that diplomacy is some kind of supra-national yard sale. Your analogy might work if the yard sale in question was being run by a psychotic antisemite/religious fanatic who regularly threatens to murder one of your best friends. Oh yes, and he's building a small nuclear device in his basement. Needless to say, I wouldn't be much interested in what such a person was selling.

As usual, all the morons here ignore the main point which makes all of this irrelevant:

The Iranians don't HAVE a nuclear weapons program, and there is no evidence they ever did. None. Nada. Zip. If there were, the US would have presented it with bells and whistles at a major press conference.

Seen one lately? Even the one about the Iranian weapons in Iraq - canceled - because the weapons turned out not to be from Iran. And now the US just "postponed" their "report" on the subject.

The only thing Cheney has left to start his war with is the unconfirmed, unproven, no evidence claim that Iran is running "camps for Iraqi insurgents" somewhere in Iran. No photos. No evidence except "confessions" tortured out of some Iraqi insurgents by the Iraqi or US torture squads.

Therefore there is nothing to negotiate about. The whole issue is made up from whole cloth, just like the Iraqi "mushroom cloud" bullshit Bush and the "Big Dog Democrats" sold to Matt (the "Little Dog Democrat") with ease.

Which is the point Obama - and Matt - are clueless about.

But, you see, Obama - and Matt - think Iran is a "threat". To whom? How? With what? For what reason? On what evidence?

No answer.

And that tells you all you need to know about Obama, Clinton, McCain - and Matt.

At least Matt can claim ignorance and stupidity and a Harvard philosophy degree.

Tim K: I'm well aware that authoritarian regimes require "a certain degree of popular consent".

For example, they must continue to work, and allow roads to function, etc. Their responses to polls or surveys or vague measures of how the political opposition has or has not been undermined, however, is irrelevant.

This is a fake argument, and you know it. However, it is a useful fake tool for the enthusiasts of the disastrously wrong recommended policies of Hillary Clinton to bash Obama.

Looking historically, had the U.S. not been completely opposed to working with an actually independent and socialist Cuba, they easily could have been our ally, and not a Soviet puppet which dramatically reinforced the tyrannical form of the regime as well as massively retarding the island's economic development, so I don't need lectures about the U.S.' brilliant Latin America policies from the knucklehead mainstream which caused the problems in the first place.

By the way, a minor heads up on the Iran crisis.

Is an attack on Iran a big risk?
By Yossi Melman, Haaretz Correspondent

The standard assumption is that a military attack by the United States or Israel to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons would be disastrous for the attackers, and would threaten the stability of the entire Middle East.

Various experts outline doomsday scenarios for such an occurrence, and warn especially of Iran's harsh reaction. Fearing the reaction of the ayatollahs has a paralyzing effect. Even before the first shot has been fired, Iran can credit itself with a success. It created an image of an omnipotent country that will not hesitate to use its power to respond and avenge a military operation against it. This is an impressive psychological achievement.

But a new paper, to be published this month in the U.S. by two well-known experts on the subject, sketches a different and more complex picture. The paper is "The Last Resort," written by Patrick Clawson and Michael Eisenstadt of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

The main point, notes Dr. Clawson in an interview with Haaretz, is that the success or failure of a military attack depends on many variables, and not just the degree of damage the attack would cause.

...[Question:] In other words, you're basically saying that things are not as they seem? That Iran is like a dog whose bark is worse than his bite?

[Response:] There's something to that. My assessment is that contrary to the impression that has been formed, Iran's options for responding are limited and weak.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/985895.html

Note that, once again, by "Last Resort," we really mean "Next!"

More importantly, Yay!!! We can bomb them and still encounter only "limited" or "weak" responses!!! Yay!!! It's just like heaven!

RightWeb summary on WINEP:

In 1985, Martin Indyk, former research director of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), founded WINEP. While AIPAC focused its lobbying on Congress, WINEP was founded as a think tank that would primarily interact with the executive branch to set U.S. policy toward Israel and the Middle East. In contrast to the obviously partisan character of AIPAC, WINEP has projected itself, at least until the administration of George W. Bush, as an objective institute.

During the Bush Senior and Clinton administrations, WINEP was undoubtedly the most influential think tank on Mideast policy. Its 1998 report, Building for Peace: An American Strategy for the Middle East, helped shape the George H. W. Bush administration policy toward the Israel-Palestinian conflict. The report advocated that the incoming administration "resist pressures for a procedural breakthrough until conditions have ripened." Writing for the Middle East Report, Stanford University professor Joel Beinin stated: "Six members of the study group responsible for the report joined the first Bush administration, which adopted this stalemate recipe not to change until change was unavoidable. Hence the United States acceded to Israel's refusal to negotiate with the Palestine Liberation Organization despite the PLO's recognition of Israel at the November 1988 session of the Palestine National Council" (April 6, 2003).

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1568.html

When I read threads like this I get increasingly worried about the future of our country. The collectively intelligence of Americans in astonishingly nil.

OBAMA: We have to negotiate with our enemies because throughout history this has proven to be an effective tool of conflict resolution in many, but not all, situations. Imposing pre-conditions to negotiations that demand the very concessions that are to be negotiated serves to prevent negotiations all together. This is bad because the end result is we will not have tried diplomacy, a proven conflict resolution technique. Iran was on record shortly after we invaded Iraq as being willing to put all important items on the table for negotiation. Bush rejected the offer to talk, and now sets preconditions that prevent negotiations. Instead of having said preconditions, lets try actual negotiations to see if we can reach mutually beneficial results, make the region a safer place, and avoid war.

IGNORANT AMERICANS: Obama want to talk without preconditions. Obama is going to have a face to face meeting the first day of office. America is going to look bad. Obama is just going to agree with everything the Iranians want. Obama this Obama that Obama this Obama that.

MY VIEW: Are you people really this ignorant? Do you actually think Obama can set forth his nuanced approach to negotiations with a hostile foreign country in a made-for-tv debate when given 1 minute to respond to a question? Isn't it possible Obama was merely conveying a different approach, i.e., one that DOESN'T MAKE THE SUBJECT OF THE NEGOTIATION A PRECONDITION TO SAID NEGOTIATION, THEREBY PREVENTING NEGOTIATIONS TO BEGIN WITH? ISN'T THAT OBAMA'S POINT? Of course there will be lower level talks. Of course there will be numerous preparations. Of course any negotiations with Iran will receive the utmost attention by the admistration's officials. This entire debate has been a stawman and many Americans (cough Tim K cough) are either too ignorant to understand they have no idea what they are talking about or simply unwilling to engage in a course of action that focuses on resolving conflict and not war.

El Cid,

Cuba's illegal political opposition enjoys very little popular support. They are seen as a bunch of malcontents, former oligarchs, traitors and foreign spies. As they should be, since for the most part that's what they are.

The United States' shameful war against the Castro government for 50 years eminently justifies most of the island's political repression and is one of the myriad crimes that characterize our foreign policy.

Implying Americans are stupid not to agree with one is not the way to win the White House.

We know that the demographic who most supports Barack Obama within the Democratic party (with the exception of African Americans who are voting for an historic first) are college educated, high income whites who think they are better than other Americans. This above post is typical of that sort of liberal snobbery and elitism. It is a world-view that sees lower income, less educated, or conservative Americans as ignorant, dumb, or otherwise unworthy of their candidate: Saint Barack Obama.

The problem is this segment of the Democratic party, while an important part of the party's coalition, has never been sufficient to win a presidential election and has always demonstrated terrible political instincts in supporting failed candidates like George McGovern, Mo Udall and Bill Bradley.

It's time to think seriously about how best to unite the Democratic party to ensure victory this November. Insulting Clinton suppo