A Different Way

There Netherlands is poised to ban smoking tobacco in public places, but smoking marijuana will still be allowed in licensed "coffee shops" as long as it's not mixed with tobacco.

I also note that I learned went I went to the Netherlands this past fall that there are fewer coffee shops around than there used to be, and that there have been a variety of measures put into place to make it more difficult to get a license. This is in part a consequence of the socially conservative smallish Christian Union Party joining the governing coalition.

Photo by me, available under a Creative Commons license

Comments

Yglesias's 2nd paragraph lead sentence? Right from a Netherlands coffee shop.

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | June 23, 2008 8:43 AM

A lot of people in the Dam mix their mj with tobacco, so this will certainly crimp their style, and probably just get them higher

Posted by Andrew Fly | June 23, 2008 8:57 AM

MY:
I know it can be charming in an odd sort of way but you really do need to learn how to proof read before you post.

Posted by Joe Klein's conscience | June 23, 2008 8:57 AM

The substance of the last paragraph is about as good as the grammar- the increase in difficulty of getting a license is a part of left-wing quality of life Labor policies supported by the Mayor of Amsterdam, Job Cohen, who has also been cracking down on the red light district, in order to make Amsterdam seem like a classier destination (which it is, outside of a few tourist-heavy areas.) To put it bluntly, the Christian Union's presence in the national government is irrelevant to the new policies (though they are not exactly opposed.) If there is any religious impulse, it comes from the Muslim Labor members of the Amsterdam city council, not conservative Christians.

Posted by Kevin | June 23, 2008 9:20 AM

This policy is bizarre -- some studies have shown smoking a joint to have equal carcinogenic properties as an entire pack of smokes. While this may be exaggerated, it would still point to marijuana being at least on par with, say, three cigarettes, which is the usual amount smoked during an outing of this sort. So why exactly was pot given a free pass?

Posted by really? | June 23, 2008 10:28 AM

Heh, the Dutch will have to start smoking American-style, all-pot joints rather than the massive tobacco-pot blunts they typically enjoy.

Posted by TW Andrews | June 23, 2008 10:36 AM

Heh, the Dutch will have to start smoking American-style, all-pot joints rather than the massive tobacco-pot blunts they typically enjoy.

Posted by TW Andrews | June 23, 2008 10:42 AM

Ah, just five more weeks until I return to my adult Disneyland in Amsterdam.

Posted by Mikelx | June 23, 2008 10:50 AM

To Kevin: "it comes from the Muslim Labor members of the Amsterdam city council, not conservative Christians".

I realize that shouting 'Muslim, Muslim' is the currently preferred Dutch mechanism for obscuring their hidden racism, especially since Fortuyn turned 'tolerance' into an expletive. But honestly, I guess you must have learned about the link between Muslims and declining number of coffeshops from Wilders' Fitna movie, for all it's truthfullness, and to put it bluntly.

The decline in the number of coffeshops in A'dam is indeed a result of Labour policies to 'clean up' the city in order to attract more international criminals, sorry, investors. Same for the decline of the squatter movement. However, this started, and was mostly completed, in the 90's, long before islam-bashing became fashionable. In fact, we 'allochtonen' rather enjoy our joints. (BTW: 'allochtoon' = 'not of dutch origin', another way of saying 'black' without being obvious).

Posted by Gerhard Kleinhans | June 23, 2008 11:01 AM

Cite for "some studies" really? Because as far as I know no connection has been made between cancer and marijuana - quite the opposite: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html

Posted by Mike in Denmark | June 23, 2008 11:05 AM

@MiD: Here:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUKT9240120080129

That WaPo article implies that THC kills pre-cancerous cells, which seems ludicrous on its face -- how it could accelerate apoptosis or whatever of 'dangerous' cells, while ignoring healthy cells, makes little sense. Silly arguments of that sort make the study sound more than a wee bit biased, adding yet another unambiguous laurel to THC's crowded pate.

Regardless, there is a significant, unfiltered amount of tar in marijuana. To argue that tar doesn't contribute to lung cancer is as laughable as the arguments and 'controlled studies' trotted out by Big Tobacco back when this country bought their lies.

Posted by really? | June 23, 2008 11:18 AM

From an a priori stand point, marijuana is probably less harmful overall than tobacco, so the policy makes some sense, but I still think that if someone wants to burn a leaf and inhale the fumes in the privacy of their home or if a business wants to allow customers to do this, they should be able to get a license to do so. The only reasons, by the way, that cannabis is less harmful than tobacco is that it is less addicting, meaning you are less likely to smoke it often enough to give yourself cancer. Another reason is that cannabis doesn't have to be smoked - it can be safely eaten. If you tried to eat tobacco, you would get seriously sick or die (nicotine is poisonous at much lower concentrations than cannabinoids). Finally, there are some studies showing that THC has some anticancer properties, but i doubt that is enough to offset the damage caused by all the other agents in smoke of any kind. Nicotine has been shown to have protective effects against neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. So, I guess at the end of the day, you just have to pick your poison. I see little reason to outright ban either tobacco or cannabis.

Posted by Chuck | June 23, 2008 12:03 PM

Sucks about the difficulty in obtaining a license but as long as the Grey Area stays open, I'll be happy.

Posted by John B | June 23, 2008 12:39 PM

Posting images of big-city nightlife on a Monday morning should be a sign of bad etiquette.
It induces physical discomfort in a lot of people.

Posted by thebystander | June 23, 2008 1:31 PM

Gerald-
I speak Dutch, I know what allochtonen means:) How old are you? In all the years I spent at Leiden I knew maybe 6 students (Dutch, not the ubiquitous foreigners) who smoked pot on a regular basis. It was rare among my friends, and while one heard rumors of an occasional Green Party pothead, the foreigner-to-Dutch ratio at coffeshops was always about 10-1. And I wasn't blaming the Muslims- I think they are actually an improvement to the Amsterdam council- but they are more likely to effectively object to what are, after all, municipal policies on the regulation of coffeeshops, than ChristianUnie politicos in The Hague, who don't control the relevant ministries anyway (unless the Ministry of Defense wants to stop troops getting high in their offdays.)

Posted by Kevin | June 23, 2008 1:44 PM

Gerald-
I speak Dutch, I know what allochtonen means:) How old are you? In all the years I spent at Leiden I knew maybe 6 students (Dutch, not the ubiquitous foreigners) who smoked pot on a regular basis. It was rare among my friends, and while one heard rumors of an occasional Green Party pothead, the foreigner-to-Dutch ratio at coffeshops was always about 10-1. And I wasn't blaming the Muslims- I think they are actually an improvement to the Amsterdam council- but they are more likely to effectively object to what are, after all, municipal policies on the regulation of coffeeshops, than ChristianUnie politicos in The Hague, who don't control the relevant ministries anyway (unless the Ministry of Defense wants to stop troops getting high in their offdays.)
and anyway, isnt allochtonen politically incorrect these days?

Posted by Kevin | June 23, 2008 1:46 PM

Gerald-
I speak Dutch, I know what allochtonen means:) How old are you? In all the years I spent at Leiden I knew maybe 6 students (Dutch, not the ubiquitous foreigners) who smoked pot on a regular basis. It was rare among my friends, and while one heard rumors of an occasional Green Party pothead, the foreigner-to-Dutch ratio at coffeshops was always about 10-1. And I wasn't blaming the Muslims- I think they are actually an improvement to the Amsterdam council- but they are more likely to effectively object to what are, after all, municipal policies on the regulation of coffeeshops, than ChristianUnie politicos in The Hague, who don't control the relevant ministries anyway (unless the Ministry of Defense wants to stop troops getting high in their offdays.)
and anyway, isnt allochtonen politically incorrect these days?

Posted by Kevin | June 23, 2008 1:46 PM

Gerald-
I speak Dutch, I know what allochtonen means:) How old are you? In all the years I spent at Leiden I knew maybe 6 students (Dutch, not the ubiquitous foreigners) who smoked pot on a regular basis. It was rare among my friends, and while one heard rumors of an occasional Green Party pothead, the foreigner-to-Dutch ratio at coffeshops was always about 10-1. And I wasn't blaming the Muslims- I think they are actually an improvement to the Amsterdam council- but they are more likely to effectively object to what are, after all, municipal policies on the regulation of coffeeshops, than ChristianUnie politicos in The Hague, who don't control the relevant ministries anyway (unless the Ministry of Defense wants to stop troops getting high in their offdays.)
and anyway, isnt allochtonen politically incorrect these days?

Posted by Kevin | June 23, 2008 1:48 PM

People are teasing Matt about grammer, but what about the camera angle... is it art or partying?

Posted by American Citizen | June 23, 2008 4:26 PM

From an a priori stand point, marijuana is probably less harmful overall than tobacco, so the policy makes some sense, but I still think that if someone wants to burn a leaf and inhale the fumes in the privacy of their home or if a business wants to allow customers to do this, they should be able to get a license to do so.

In their home, maybe. At least for now. But not in an enclosed space shared with other people who have to breathe the same air.

Posted by Mixner | June 23, 2008 9:30 PM

'This is in part a consequence of the socially conservative smallish Christian Union Party joining the governing coalition.' Yes, but as an international trend the blame--and I do blame--belongs rather with Bloomberg and other authoritarian idealists who are looking out for We the Besotted People. When liberals of the world, lovers of freedom and sensation, liberality and pleasure, lose Amsterdam, will we all gain the 16th century? The Clash of Civilizations looks nearer every day! (I hyperbolize, a tad.)

Posted by Robert | June 23, 2008 9:41 PM

But not in an enclosed space shared with other people who have to breathe the same air.

Generally I would agree with you, but these are establishments specifically designed for smoking. There is no other reason to enter a coffee shop other than to inhale burned leaves. None.

Then again, this was the reason I started smoking tobacco in the first place, so maybe it's not such a bad thing.

In their home, maybe. At least for now.

Riiight. Because the government is doing sooooooo well at controlling substances right now [rips bong].

(And this little bit of fascism coming from the guy who thinks driving a car is an inalienable right. LOL!)

Posted by scythia | June 24, 2008 2:15 AM

USA = Washington, D.C. Netherlands = central Amsterdam.

Posted by James Wimberley | June 24, 2008 7:40 AM