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Biden's Got Game

10 Jun 2008 03:09 pm

Like Ezra Klein I think there's something to be said about the idea of Joe Biden as a VP candidate. In terms of his record on national security issues, he's neither the best nor the worst Democrat in the Senate. But he does have one thing that sets him apart from most Democrats in terms of talking about foreign policy -- confidence. When given the chance to talk foreign policy he's eager to do it and confident that he'll win the argument:

Democrats have a tendency to get timid, get defense, or get high-minded (condemning the "politics of fear" or "politicizing" this or that) when attacked by Republicans. Biden, though, just responds in kind as if he's obviously right, and his opponents are obviously wrong and stupid. There's real value in that. At the same time, I think putting someone on the ticket who voted in favor of the 2002 AUMF would prove problematic. I don't see an open and shut case for or against Biden or most of the other people I've seen. But certainly he should be used as a national security surrogate in a high-profile way, one way or other -- it's simply useful to have someone up there who's hungry and eager to deride Republicans on national security issues.

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Comments (44)

Mr Yglesias:
Please invest about $100 in the writings of Dilip Hiro on Iraq. He provides the chapter and verse on why we should have known there were no WMDs, provides reasons to doubt the "plan to assassinate Bush I.

Is he chewing gum in that video?
Biden is certainly the most fun candidate of the names being thrown out and he's certainly "ready for day one"

I don't really think anyone over 60 should be Veep... I want to have an heir apparent in that spot. The person also shouldn't reinforce the meme that Obama is "inexperienced" and needs somebody like Biden to be his training wheels. (Also a problem with Webb)

Double down on youth and change with a 50 something... preferably with someone who, as you mention, didn't vote for the AUMF and who has been publicly against the war.

Um, yes, he's eager to talk about Iraq.

Not sure you needed the last two words of that sentence.

Would Biden accept? When he was still a candidate, he seemed to harbor a genuine dislike for Obama, perhaps because he could have possibly been the primary underdog to take on Hillary had Barack not run. I also don't see him pulling in more people than a Jim Webb would.

No. Oh GOD no. By all that is holy, please God do not inflict Joe Biden on our country. Yglesias you are SO far off base with this one.

I'm sorry but Joe Biden is a fucking blowhard. And he's not confident at all. He's a Joe Klein type of weasel who gets real confident when beating up people to his left in order to prove his bona fides to his overlords on his right. How many times have I seen that smarmy little pussy kissing GOP ass? Biden is a huge fucking pussy. God, Matthew, sometimes you go so badly wrong...

You can be pretty damn thick sometimes, Yglesias. Joe Biden's big idea on Iraq for the last year and a half has been partition. Now: are you in favor of America forcibly partitioning Iraq, with all that that entails (i.e., American-supported ethnic cleansing)? Maybe you are and I've just never noticed. But I'd sure like to see you or Ezra Klein or anyone else singing the praises of Joe Biden stop and take a look at the actual policies he's advocating before you give him your seal of approval.

Seems too close to the 1960 ticket. The young fresh "historic" (Catholic) charismatic senator pairing with the older, safer, wiser senator.

Of course, Kennedy beat Johnson for the nomination, so that would militate for Hillary's selection....

But it was a winning ticket.

I'm sorry but Joe Biden is a fucking blowhard.

Also, this is absolutely correct. If there were an official position for Senate Majority Mascot, or Court Jester, or anything else that would officially require Joe Biden to ham it up in front of the cameras while keeping him way the fuck away from anything like actual power, then I'd say sure, give him that. But Biden has a long and tortured history of saying tough-sounding stuff for the cameras and then shitting all over himself when it comes time to actually do something meaningful.

True, Matt, but Webb brings this as well, in addition to early opposition to the war in Iraq.

Plus Biden is something of a blowhard.

But I'm really sick of this idea that if Obama picks someone with foreign-policy experience he's "caving in" to a GOP criticism of him. This makes no sense. The ultimate "cave in" is to NOT pick someone simply out of FEAR of reinforcing your opponents message. Thats dumb.

If Joe Biden, or Jim Webb, or anyone else with foreign policy experience is the best choice for VP, then they should be chosen for VP, regardless of what the opposition might do. And having someone with that kind of experience isn't such a bad idea in the first place.

>Like Ezra Klein I think there's something to be said about the idea of Joe Biden as a VP candidate.

Uh, how many electoral votes does Delaware have?

No. The VP pick has to come from the South or the West (funny how Senator Obama is such an Eastern elitist coming from Chicago).

My vote would be Jim Webb: Sews up Virgina's votes and Obama's ticket gets instant military cred.

He carries some baggage, and would be difficult to keep under wraps. I can imagine a scenario where in Obama's first 100 days Biden says something stupid/controversial, and all the headlines are "Can Obama control Biden?"

I'd prefer Dodd or Richardson for Veep if we're going to talk about failed presidential candidates.

Biden will never shake the plagiarism charge. End of story.

Plus, he's a tool.

I've said this before, but Im going to say it again.

Joe bide is a poor man's Jim Webb. Stupider, artless (Webb's 1980s writing mean less than Biden's daily renderings), and clearly less formidable on Foreign policy.

On Iraq: Biden supported the War and then the subsequent partition of Iraq against the will of every major stakeholder in the Middle East, outside of the Kurds.

Seriously, Matt is getting all excited about the attack dog toughness of Biden, but derides the same qualities in Webb, who is incredibly more sincere. I thought it was "fan-boy" worship to like Webb's toughness, but the same qualities in blowhard Biden are of "real value."

And whereas it's capitulatory to nominate Webb, because its admitting a weakness in Obama, for Biden it represents "confidence" in "foreign policy." Yeah, because Webb is a real timid foreign policy type. And, oh yeah, unlike biden he was right about Iraq and actually knows a thing or two.

This is a total case of glaring double standards. Kinda pathetic if you ask me.

Some of the many reasons to keep Biden off the ticket:

1. He got Iraq wrong.
2. Obama's running as the anti-business as usual politician. Biden is the poster boy for baup's.
3. He's a self-important blowhard in the pocket of Big Credit.4. The hair plugs are kind of annoying too.

Gaffe-prone, unnecessarily verbiose, voted the wrong way on the AUMF. More use in studio settings as a surrogate, where he's much more comfortable with the format and the interrogators, than on the stump.

Obama really ought to look west of the Mississippi. I'm not convinced by the prospect of Webb on the ticket, for reasons I've outlined before: Virginia's pool of high-profile Democrats is too thinly stocked to raid.

Yes, but doesn't Obama do pretty well at fighting back against Republican attacks on foreign policy? And if even Jim Webb doesn't even bring much as far as increased votes, I don't see how Biden does. That said, Obama should create a group of people who can supplement the ticket as far as being the people to go to in certain areas. If the media wants to hear someone on an issue, the campaign would direct them to X (Biden on foreign policy, etc.)

The case for Hillary Clinton is much stronger than for Biden. The thoughtful appraisals of what her candidacy has meant for women (on TAPPED, Taylor Marsh, and elsewhere) have changed my mind about whether she should be vice president.

I think the conversation we need now is not about Hillary per se, though, but about how the Obama campaign can reach out to women, feminist women.

I can see four basic ways, the first having to so with the role of women in the campaign and the administration. Either make Hillary the vice presidential nominee, or find another high-profile role for her in the campaign and/or in the new administration. If not Hillary for vice-president, then pick another woman, such as Kathleen Sebelius. And make a commitment to use women generally in a high-profile way in his campaign and in his administration, maybe even a goal or commitment of having half of his administration's top posts go to women.

Second, commit to a broad feminist agenda, including a family policy.

Third, make it clear, through a speech or otherwise, that he strongly opposes sexist attacks against Hillary and other women candidates, not only in the media but on the blogs, and that he won't tolerate that among his supporters.

Fourth, commit to a goal of having equal numbers of Democratic male and female office holders and/or candidates on all levels by X date (2020?), and of establishing the infrastructure and cultural conditions to make it possible. Making Hillary the head of that effort would be a powerful step.

Matt, you just haven't been around long enough. To echo others, Biden is both a blowhard and a tool. The plagiarism charge isn't going away, but more serious are the hours of video of Biden saying ridiculous things at great length, usually with a weird grin on his face.

Obama doesn't need someone to shore up some perceived weakness. He needs someone who is a credible president. That ain't Joe Biden.

He's proud Delaware was a slave state.

Non-starter.

You really nail Biden's best asset -- assertiveness. It's so frustratingly rare for a Democrat to speak as forcefully and confidently about foreign affairs.

Which is also a reason not to put him on the ticket. The VP's goal should be securing EV in swing states. Luckily, Biden's best asset can be utilized in exactly the same way whether he's VP or a surrogate (with the idea of him as SOS floating around). I hope the campaign uses him often.

Another voice in the choir here, but that's spot on, Matt. It's not that Biden is really even all that great--I would say he's better than most, particularly since about 2004 or so when he became a go-to Kerry surrogate. But the real difference is that he sounds like he means what he says and that it matters. The most important thing for Dems to start doing now (what they should have been doing for a long time already) is drawing lines around certain GOP-neo-con policies and saying: "OK, so it's now proven that this was a REALLY awful, stupid idea and we should never do this again. Furthermore, the morons that came up with this are not to be trusted and should have no role in government in the future." Biden's been doing that since way before it was cool.

Biden the plagiarist?

Biden who badly mis-managed the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings?

Biden who, if he's lucky, might be able to deliver the electoral votes of Delaware?

Puh-leeez!

Biden brings nothing to the ticket that a dozen better candidates couldn't supply.

Biden's (D-MBNA) support of the bankruptcy bill alone should disqualify him for VP.

Secretary of State, absolutely, he'd be great. But they'd need to keep him on the short list in the campaign...gaffe-prone is correct...

Would Biden accept? When he was still a candidate, he seemed to harbor a genuine dislike for Obama, perhaps because he could have possibly been the primary underdog to take on Hillary had Barack not run.

Is that why he encouraged all his people in Iowa to go for Obama as their second choice? And yes, of course he would accept; he's already said that the campaign has asked him to be a foreign policy surrogate and he's already demonstrated that he'd be more than eager to fill that role. And when Bush did his Chamberlain-appeasement attack, Biden was Obama's biggest and best defender (see here).

And that's the same thing Matt's talking about re: assertiveness and confidence. They're good assets in an attack dog or campaign surrogate. And they're two things notably lacking in many Dems.

Jim Webb, Jim Webb, Jim Webb.

The best alternative to Webb would be Chuck Hagel. Either would generate enthusiasm and shore up Obama's bonafides.

Biden used to brag about his friendship with Netanyahu. Now, maybe, post-Iraq he's a little more cognizant than he used to be about the zionist evil that's controlling our government, but not enough so you'd notice. The Perle Cabal could run circles around an Obama-Biden Administration. Not so with Obama-Webb. Biden can be likeable in a kind of semi-idiotic way, but he is not a net plus.

The best alternative to Webb would be Chuck Hagel. Either would generate enthusiasm and shore up Obama's bonafides.

I don't see how anyone can diss the idea of Biden while arguing in favor of making a Republican the Vice President.

I like that Hagel has split from his party, I like that he's come close to endorsing Obama, and I'd like for him to go all the way and for us to find a way to use him in the years to come in some role or another. But he's a Republican. The Vice Presidency isn't an option.

You really nail Biden's best asset -- assertiveness.

Not very convincing. You know who's assertive? Dick Cheney.

Biden:

Negative: he's an establishment blowhard.
Positive: he's not Hillary.

Biden assertive? That is truly comical.

Is it possible to be assertive while grabbing your ankles? Is it possible to be assertive when you're buns-up-kneelin' spreading cheek for some truly assertive Republican?

"You can be pretty damn thick sometimes, Yglesias."

Actually, quite often.

I wonder why Matt won't consider Webb - who appears to be seriously against an unnecessary Iran war?

Could it be that Matt doesn't care about an upcoming Iran war?

The upcoming Iran war is THE most important foreign policy issue in existence today - and Matt can't talk about it, nor can he recommend someone who has introduced legislation against it as a potential VP.

Perle and Wolfowitz's top choices for Obama's VP:

1. Bayh
2. Vilsack
3. Hillary
4. Bloomberg
5. Feinstein
6. Biden

Perle and Wolfowitz's top choices NOT to be Obama's VP:

1. Jim Webb
2. Chuck Hagel
3. Brian Schweitzer
4. Wes Clark
5. Tony Zinni

There's only one reason why a liberal/progressive would be against Webb: They want to cover for the ziocons. The feminist angle (Webb is a "misogynist") is a distant second. Webb wants to root out these pullulating fifth column maggots. Hagel feels similarly.

Ah, Trevor the wannabe crusader king would be funny if he wasn't such a bigot.

The Senate suits Webb. Having two Democratic Senators and a Democratic governor next year is good for keeping Virginia blue in years to come. West is best in the veepstakes.

I think another more subtle reason that Biden might work well politically is because the minute he was named the media would drag up all those "clean and articulate" clips from last year. The fact that Obama picked him anyway would underscore the image of Obama as not the type to hold a grudge against sometimes racially clueless white people. I know it sounds silly but I could see this being very reassuring to certain low-information voters (Hillary's "base") who fear that having a black president will lead to a recriminatory atmosphere against whites.

I'm with Pseudonymous. The West is the place to look-- and, specifically, Brian Schweitzer is the candidate to pick. I certainly hope that Obama's team is giving serious thought to the Governor of Montana.

I love it: Jim "Countrywide" Johnson vetting Joe "bankruptcy bill" Biden on behalf of Barack "tort reform" Obama.

Rich bastards are rich bastards, regardless of color, creed, and party.

I'm with Pseudonymous. The West is the place to look-- and, specifically, Brian Schweitzer is the candidate to pick. I certainly hope that Obama's team is giving serious thought to the Governor of Montana.

Biden is awesome - well spoken, dead confident, and a foreign policy expert who has a tough oratorical style that would mesh well with Obama's more eloquent oratory. If Biden doesn't get the VP spot, he really should be offered a position in Obama's cabinet.

Schweitzer is doing a good job in Montana, but he just seems too naive and "country" - I can imagine going cow-tipping with Schweitzer, and while that might be appealing, it's not going to win over many folks in the business community.

Webb seems a good choice but is a bit scary given his loose cannon tendencies and distaste for politicking.

If you want to lock down the white working class vote though, I can't think of anyone better than John Edwards. His campaign was all about the working class, and his message really resonated this time around...

When given the chance to talk foreign policy he's eager to do it and confident that he'll win the argument

And Mr. "Soft Partition" is confidently and completely WRONG about Iraq.

Biden would be a great VP candidate if he wasn't constantly saying really stupid things. How anyone can call Webb as loose cannon when compared to Joe Biden is just stunning. The man constantly speaks without thinking first.

Biden is originally from Pennsylvania. Anyway, the idea that a VP "delivers" a state has been thoroughly debunked. Hasn't mattered since LBJ.

As for voting for the war... If you're going to exclude everyone who supported the Iraq war, you're going to be excluding a LOT of Democrats. The question is how they handled themselves afterwards. If there's one Democrat out there who supported the war but still has credibility in critiquing Bush's foreign policy, it's Biden.

The people saying that he's such a blowhard and so long-winded must not have seen many of the debates, where he was fantastic. He could have taken off if the media had given him any attention.

Webb fans need to read today's Politico article about Jefferson Davis, er, I mean, Jim Webb and his love for the terrorists who broke our country to try to preserve slavery. I don't care how many electoral votes Virginia has. I don't want Webb in the White House if he's going to talk about how many Americans "misunderstand" the Confederacy. I understand it fine. There's a word for what Webb's heroes did: treason.

Jim Webb is a monster on women's issues, as well. Does anyone honestly think Obama's going to win back Clinton supporters with Mr. Tailhook dragging him down on the ticket?

Biden's plan for Iraq, by the way, is not "partition." Not "soft partition" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), either.

Biden's plan is based on the Dayton Accord model for the Balkans, which worked, by the way, and calls for a federal system (which is already called for in the Iraqi constitution). Federalism is not partition, in the least. Iraq would be one country with regional governments handling issues that don't need to be decided and mandated for the whole country. The federal government in Baghdad would handle national defense and the oil fields. Seriously, read the plan and don't fall into the Fixed News talking points about "splitting" Iraq.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200605020007

With all due respect, you people are pretty dense on Biden.

Biden has the best democratic foreign policy credentials in the U.S. Senate.

You're right: he was wrong on Iraq. Newsflash, so was everyone else. I love all of these johnny-come-latelies who deride people who got it wrong because Bush lied.

He's one feather to stick in your cap: Biden is one of the few high profiel legislatures threatening to ignite impeachment hearings in the event of an unprovoked attack on Iran. The man learned his mistake...Christ, give up the self-righteous/moveon.org attitude, will you?

Regarding gaffes, I can't deny that, but sans the beginning, Biden managed to learn how not to say troublesome things as the campaign wore on.

Personally, I like Webb and Sebelius. The former gives you a lot of the same authority I like in Biden; the latter is a BETTER Hillary (minus Bill).

If you have questions, you need look no further than YouTube and the tears that Biden has been on in the last month. He has almost single-handedly annihilated the republicans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IJWp9kAEUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2IRYCHy3y4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKh5JH3Mj7g

That's just a few.

With all due respect, you people are pretty dense on Biden.

Biden has the best democratic foreign policy credentials in the U.S. Senate.

You're right: he was wrong on Iraq. Newsflash, so was everyone else. I love all of these johnny-come-latelies who deride people who got it wrong because Bush lied.

He's one feather to stick in your cap: Biden is one of the few high profiel legislatures threatening to ignite impeachment hearings in the event of an unprovoked attack on Iran. The man learned his mistake...Christ, give up the self-righteous/moveon.org attitude, will you?

Regarding gaffes, I can't deny that, but sans the beginning, Biden managed to learn how not to say troublesome things as the campaign wore on.

Personally, I like Webb and Sebelius. The former gives you a lot of the same authority I like in Biden; the latter is a BETTER Hillary (minus Bill).

If you have questions, you need look no further than YouTube and the tears that Biden has been on in the last month. He has almost single-handedly annihilated the republicans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IJWp9kAEUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2IRYCHy3y4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKh5JH3Mj7g

That's just a few.


Comments closed June 24, 2008.

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