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Did Bush Lie?

10 Jun 2008 08:11 pm

Fred Hiatt's preposterous editorial denouncing anyone who accuses Bush of having "lied" about Iraq has sparked renewed interest in this question. On some level, though, it's completely absurd that this question has dominated our national debate with, in particular, the "serious" and "grownup" position being that you can never say Bush lied. After all, we're right now in the middle of a major presidential campaign. The campaign, as campaigns tend to be, is waged by big league politicians. And I've heard Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, John McCain, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and all the rest all try to mislead the voters on a whole variety of subjects over the course of the months.

Nobody finds this particularly shocking. Indeed, anyone who doesn't recognize that there's a lot of BS and hocus pocus out there on the campaign trail would be dismissed as a naive child.

Meanwhile, the war sales pitch was deeply dishonest. No fair-minded person could possibly deny that the overall effect of the way the administration talked about Iraq was designed to get people to believe that there was a short-term threat that Saddam Hussein would transfer a nuclear weapon to al-Qaeda for use against the United States of America. It's equally clear that this was not supported by the evidence. But more to the point, it's perfectly clear that the whole pitch was made in bad faith. The administration had a different, more nuanced and more medium-term set of concerns about Iraq. It believed that preventive war was the best way to deal with those concerns. And it also believed, correctly I think, that the public would not support an action of pure "anticipatory self-defense." Thus they took bits and pieces of real intelligence plus some very flimsy stuff plus some made up stuff plus some rhetorical excess and they weaved their dishonest tapestry.

The reason a lot of people seem reluctant to admit that this is what happened is that they were in on the scam. No doubt Fred Hiatt understood perfectly well that the administration was presenting an alarmist account of the Iraq issue, calculated to induce panic and misunderstanding rather than accurate assessments of the situation. It's just that Hiatt believed, as did most elites on the right and the hawkish segment of the left, that the sheeplike American were insufficiently attuned to the genius of aggressive warfare and that a good scare story was needed to roust them from their isolationist slumbers.

But then it turned out that the war was a disaster, and the much-feared "isolationist" impulse which said that war is a tool to be used to counter bona fide aggression rather than on speculative ventures was vindicated. So now everyone wants to pretend that it was an honest mistake, some kind of whacky mix-up like the time I took a huge gulp of vodka thinking it was water then spit it out all over the table, rather than a serious ideas-driven blunder that deserves to discredit the ideas that motivated it.

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Comments (128)

Bush could have lied to get us into war, but arguably, Congress still had to buy the lie and vote for war. Arguably, members of Congress were in a position to know better, and Bush can always point to their "permission" and sort of diffuse his own culpability. Since we're never going to reach a definitive verdict on whether we were "lied into war" we would be better served as a nation (not that this is going to happen either) by focusing on the fact that since said war began, members of the administration are guilty of WAR CRIMES and should be PROSECUTED, IMPEACHED and ideally sent to PRISON.

Wow. Good one, Matt. Well said.

Exactly.

I'm not sure that Bush lied, because I'm not sure there was a moment at which he believed that there were no WMDs but nevertheless decided to claim that there were.

The fact that the best-informed war supporters realized that the pro-war arguments were fraudulent made an informed debate about the war utterly impossible. I realized pretty early on that a lot of the warbloggers understood the war exactly as I did: not about WMD, not about al Qaeda, but all about extending American power and perhaps creating a global empire in a monopolar world. The longer we argued, the more they smirked, and the more they denied what we both knew.

This is completely destructive of the possibility of democracy, but most of those guys were unenthusiastic about democracy too. Their anti-populist ideal was a unitary executive, two parties dominated by the war party, and occasional ritual changes of executive. (Even most of the liberals.)

One problem with nudge-nudge wink-wink politics is that a lot of people think they're in on the game, when actually they're just some of the suckers. These include the Christian Right, the nativists, and the little-government conservatives. Only the authoritarians, the neocons and the country-club conservatives got what they wanted.

Disillusioned conservatives can get pretty nasty. Time will tell how nasty.

I think you just tripled your long-term earnings.

I can't even begin to describe how much I hate Fred Hiatt and similarly manipulative sh*ts who think their obligation is to lie to the public to get us f***ing sheep to support whatever excrement they've convinced themselves we need.

And it isn't just on Iraq. It's on topic after topic after topic after topic. The degree of Hiatt's (and his ilk's) ignorance combined with absolute hatred of relevant knowledge with regard to Latin America is not indescribable, but it is far more work than he deserves.

In a way it doesn't matter if he lied. He is still guilty of the war. A President isn't supposed to be misled by the intelligence services.


The irony being that if there ever really was a merit based market system that the republicans keep claiming they long for, they'd all lose their jobs as a result.

They all lied, starting with Bush, going way down the food chain.

There was a little article at the appropriate time by Gregg Easterbrook (who was, I think, in favor of the war) pointing out two things which were obvious to anyone able to reason, but that helped clarify my thinking on the war, and too understand how we were being mislead:

1) The claims about Iraq and nuclear weapons were blatant nonsense, as anyone could easily discover at the time - even the WP and Times had articles discrediting the claims about nuclear weapons. It was obvious.

2) The term "WMD" is totally disingenuous. None of us should use it, ever. There are nuclear weapons, and there's everything else. Chemical weapons and biological weapons are not capable, at this time, of "mass destruction." Probably one day biological weapons will be capable. Maybe some day soon. But not yet, and not in Iraq (notably lacking in world-class Biology departments and facilities).

The very conflation of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons was itself pure propaganda, the Orwellian Big Lie. Sure, Iraq might have had (although they happened not to) some nerve gas or badly weaponized Anthrax. Those would not have been threats even if they had existed - they are ugly weapons, but in no way do they deserve the MD in the WMD. It was bad luck for the administration that they had actually gotten rid of the chemical weapons - they probably would have pulled it all off if not for that, and the talking heads would still be gravely talking about the "threat" posed by the nerve gas with no real delivery system.

This post from Matt is just deeply confused.

The idea that the American people had to be sold a war against Iraq on false premises is just laughable. Matt doesn't remember the 2000 election, since he was in Jr High back then, but the rest of us remember that the two candidates were busy arguing over who would be more likely to "take out" Saddam, and the reason they were arguing that way was because the US had been in a low-grade war with Iraq for 9 years by then, and almost everyone saw Saddam as a threat.

The war wasn't sold on the basis that Iraq was a short term threat. That's the whole point of moving away from a standard requiring a threat to be "imminent" before the US would act. The administration was clear that the threat from Iraq didn't (or probably didn't) meet that level.

Finally, I think it's also not right to say that the American people wouldn't have supported a war on the basis of anticipatory self-defense. We had tried the alternative in Afghanistan, one will recall, and that alternative approach didn't end well. I'm not sure why Matt isn't saddled with those bad facts--the approach he recommends led directly to 3000 dead on 9/11. That's the approach we moved away from, and the approach he thinks we should now re-adopt. Great, own up to the 3000 dead, and then we can talk about the best approach to dealing with threats that are less than imminent.

This "disaster" now has violence levels down to where they were in 2003. The WaPo is telling Obama that he needs to figure out a plan for victory. I can tell things are going better another way as well - Duncan Black (aka Atrios) rarely brings up the war now. Why do you suppose that is?

Here's a thought for Matt: any serious person recognizes that the Democrats have put partisan advantage ahead of the war effort since 2004. You like the way that sounds? Try it on for size, because it's the reality that the "reality based community" is going to have to deal with.

There's something on my site about the war or the people who love it almost every day.

Here's a thought for Matt: any serious person recognizes that the Democrats have put partisan advantage ahead of the war effort since 2004.

Serious observers will note that Republicans have put partisan advantage ahead of the interests of the nation and the men and women who serve it since 2002.

Excellent post Matt. Thanks.

That's the whole point of moving away from a standard requiring a threat to be "imminent" before the US would act.

This is what Thomas means:

"Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business." Michael Ledeen

Matt, what a weaselly stream of half-stepping equivocation. Lies? Hell yes. Sure, discredit the ideas that motivated the war. But that's meager consolation for all the survivors of the murdered and caregivers of the maimed. Bush, Cheney and others deserve to die for their genocidal crimes. Hang them. That's the discredit due to the human race. Wilhelm Keitel, Arthur Seyss-Inquart, Hans Frank and Wilhelm Frick would all be proud of Bush. He's cut from the same sadistic and sociopathic cloth as they were. He should receive the same justice meted out to them.

Matt, does this make you one of the liars, or does it make you a dupe?

Davis, no. It's a reference to this passage from the speech Bush gave before the invasion, in which he explicitly rejected the "imminence" standard that Matt insists he didn't reject:

"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

Matt's not a good reader.

Davis, no. It's a reference to this passage from the speech Bush gave before the invasion, in which he explicitly rejected the "imminence" standard that Matt insists he didn't reject:

"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

Matt's not a good reader.

"I'm not sure that Bush lied, because I'm not sure there was a moment at which he believed that there were no WMDs but nevertheless decided to claim that there were."

Regardless, Bush and his people very definitely lied about the likely cost of the war, and fired Lawrence Lindsey for making a public estimate that was too close to the truth for comfort.

That shouldn't be dismissed lightly. The lowball estimate Wolfowitz gave ($50 billion, repaid from Iraqi oil revenues) likely encouraged Congress to give even less scrutiny to the administration's claims.

After Afghanistan, it was probably easy for Congresspeople to think "it'll be quick, cheap, and easy, and even if the intelligence doesn't hold up, who cares?"

Had Wolfowitz estimated that it'd cost $1 trillion, I think even our spineless Congress would have sent Bush back to triple-check the intelligence.

To follow up steve duncan's comment:

Count One, from the International Military Tribunal, Nuremburg:

(a) Crimes against Peace: namely, planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a Common Plan or Conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing;

There are only 2 logical conclusions about the Iraq war:
1. Bush was a liar who got the US involved in this war for an ulterior motive, most likely oil.

2. Bush was an incompetent Commander in Chief. As President, he is ultimately responsible for the ability of the intelligence to "get it right".

The real irony is that for a long time the conservatives and Republicans argued that #2 could not possibly be true. They would say "how can you expect the President to be responsible for intelligence? He isn't running the CIA." Of course, he actually is running the CIA; as in he appoints all the people that run it and they report to him.

So I guess the conservatives are Ok with Bush lying. But then again, didn't Bush lie to America about firing Rumsfeld?

Thomas -

You're overemphasizing the word "imminent." Bush & co. walked a fine line, implying without stating that the threat was near-imminent - but your quote certainly demonstrates that they were careful about it.

Here's the reality, though: there was no threat. No nuclear threat, no conventional threat, not even the paper tiger threat of biological or chemical weapons. Lots of people knew better at the time, and we all should know it now. Iraq was the hollow shell of a state, unable to threaten anyone except its own people. And I believe you're right about Gore, although my memories are vague - that's one reason some of us voted for Nader. There was no threat of any kind, imminent or otherwise - unlike, say, in the case of Al-Qaeda, which we're ignoring (along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border) in favor of our vain attempt to establish middle eastern hegemony.

If you want to defend our attempt to build a Middle Eastern empire, do that. It would be a novelty to hear the case made honestly, at least. I'd even be interested in listening -- a middle eastern empire would be morally wrong, but perhaps not stupid. That doesn't mean Iraq posed a threat, though.


Excellent post except for one thing. I don't think most of the war supporters were "duped" into the war. Far as I can tell, they wanted sufficient payback for 9/11 from a major "Arab" country and a plausible justification for it.

Tom Friedman had it basically right when he said some other middle-eastern country would have probably done just as well. For a militarized superpower, bombing the rubble in Afghanistan would hardly count as retaliation.

Of course, now that the whole thing is a disaster, everyone is shocked, SHOCKED that the case for war was a tissue of lies. Well, that's the package Bush signed up for: all the glory and the blame.


OT:

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/10860844

Would any of you crack analysts over here want to offer up some more esoteric theories about the NBA home/win advantage? I don't want to say I told you so, but...

NBA = WWF

I think a lot of what the Administration did in the runup to war would technically be "bullshitting", not lying--see Harry Frankfurt's On Bullshit, a marvelous essay on the subject. And as Frankfurt claimed, "bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are."

Thomas is a moron who thinks we are all as stupid as he is. Bush made noises about all kinds of things. Hell, if you search hard enough you will find Bush claiming that we were going for humanitarian reasons. That was never true either.

No, the simple fact is that Bush wanted to slaughter people so he could be a War President. That was, he and his cabal of like minded mass murderers rightly saw, the path to a second term - especially for a "President" appointed by a bunch of partisan hacks on the Supreme Court.

There is a poster, whose name I forget but it sounds like Deus Ex Machina, who has consistently held the correct line on the war: It was the world's most expensive campaign commercial. That's why the Republicans played politics with it in 2002, 2004, and then discovered that through long use and the exposure of the lies that had sustained it for so long it no longer held them in 2006.

That this will devastate the Republican Party is the only possible good to come out of this. The Republicans have not been good on national security since at least the time that Richard Nixon started dropping bombs on the innocents of Cambodia for the crime of not being Americans. They certainly weren't good when Reagan was arming terrorists in Iraq to fund terrorism in Central America. All the Republicans are good for is to excite the morons like Thomas and James Robertson.

It might be useful to read Fred Hiatt's piece, as he digs into the report itself:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/08/AR2008060801687.html

Here are some relevant bits from the report released by Rockefeller:

"On Iraq's nuclear weapons program? The president's statements "were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates."

On biological weapons, production capability and those infamous mobile laboratories? The president's statements "were substantiated by intelligence information."

On chemical weapons, then? "Substantiated by intelligence information."

On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information." Delivery vehicles such as ballistic missiles? "Generally substantiated by available intelligence." Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information."

And while we're parsing President Bush's statements as to whether Saddam constituted an imminent threat, here's a statement worth pondering:

"There has been some debate over how 'imminent' a threat Iraq poses. I do believe Iraq poses an imminent threat. I also believe after September 11, that question is increasingly outdated. . . . To insist on further evidence could put some of our fellow Americans at risk. Can we afford to take that chance? I do not think we can."

That was Senator Rockefeller in October of 2002. Did he lie?

Thanks, Matt, for cutting through the bullshit. Every once in a while someone has to tell the truth about this stupid war. While I wish you saw through the bs at the time, I'm glad to see you're willing to call it out now.

The Hague for some, penal battalions for others

Well, it's a real dilemma. Did Bush willingly mislead the American public, aka lie to them? Or did he honestly promote a an extreme and phenomenally bad interpretation of reality?

Or was it a mix of the two?

The thing is, the alternative to him being a liar is only marginally better than him being a liar. So it's a classic lose-lose situation, however pundits twist it. Was he badly wrong this way, or that way? Point is, he was badly wrong.

Lie? If by lie you mean a massive marketing campaign based on knowingly false intelligence.

The idea that the American people had to be sold a war against Iraq on false premises is just laughable. Matt doesn't remember the 2000 election, since he was in Jr High back then, but the rest of us remember that the two candidates were busy arguing over who would be more likely to "take out" Saddam, and the reason they were arguing that way was because the US had been in a low-grade war with Iraq for 9 years by then, and almost everyone saw Saddam as a threat.

You are right. Bill Clinton lied to us about Iraq as well. This should not surprise anyone, as Clinton is well known to be a liar.

Your point is?

What I recall from 2000 is that Gore was talking about supporting opposition groups in an attempt to oust Saddam in a coup of some sort.

Meanwhile, Bush and Cheney were talking about the possibility of using military action to prevent Saddam from acquiring a nuclear weapon.

What I definitely do not recall is anyone suggesting we should mount a large-scale invasion and indefinite occupation of Iraq for the purpose of liberating Iraq from Saddam and setting Iraq on the path to becoming a pro-Western democracy, and then using it as a base of operations for similar invasions of countries like Iran.

And I think I would have remembered something like that.

Matt doesn't remember the 2000 election...,but the rest of us remember that the two candidates were busy arguing over who would be more likely to "take out" Saddam, and the reason they were arguing that way was because the US had been in a low-grade war with Iraq for 9 years by then, and almost everyone saw Saddam as a threat.


Not in my 2000, though I admit to not remembering a few things during my junior year(s) at university. Iraq was treated as another Cuba in the 2000 election cycle.

There are still Republican apologists so wedded to the lie that Iraq posed a threat to our national security that they think any wrong statement by any Democrat undermines the fact that Bush lied.

Listen up you stupid fucks: no one cares what Rockefeller said, what Bill Clinton said, what Hillary Clinton said. None of them drove us to war. And to the extent that they spouted nonsense suggesting that Iraq was a threat to our national security, yes, they too were lying.

I know there were Democrats who were wrong. Hell, our gracious host was wrong. But it was the Republicans who, under Bush's guidance, started a war of aggression against the people of Iraq. Bush lied and hundreds of thousands of human beings were slaughtered. It's that simple.

It is essentially such a truism that we don't get the complete picture before a war that calling a Pres a 'Liar' must stretch the english language. Wilson knew full well that we'd end up in WW I; he still campaigned on 'He kept us out of war'. And won. FDR knew full well we'd end up fighting Hitler (my opinion--he hoped to pacify Japan and fight only the Nazis) but kept LendLease and Destroyer sales to the RoyalNavy quite hush hush.
Most of us 'boomers' have our own opinion about the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident'--and many of us don't think LBJ is blameless is that manufactured 'provocation'.

Still, the Bush Administration (including those Dem's who backed the 'Authorization') entered new ground with his year-long drumbeat working all of us into a frenzied war fever. How unfortunate for them and for hundreds of thousands (possibly MANY hundred of thousands) of innocent Iraqis that they turned out to be completely wrong.

Well, there is a responsibility that comes with the decision to go to war without just cause.
However much our Rightwing friends hate it--they backed the wrong horse. They (Repubs and centrist, war-scared Dems both) have to take their medicine. It is amusing to 'See how they run like pigs from a gun. See how they (f)lie' from manly acceptance of responsibility.

My impression of Hewitt's attempt to show how the Bush Party is blameless: Cowardice. Moral Cowards. That what Repubs are. Fat chickenshit cowards. They got us into a war. When they saw what a war actually is, they ran crying. Now it's not their fault. Tomorrow, it will be the Left's fault that the war was lost. Don't be amazed--they will explain it to you.

Laura Rosen:

Pincus concludes: "WHIG's records would shed much light on whether, as Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), chairman of the intelligence panel, put it: 'In making the case for war, the administration repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when it was unsubstantiated, contradicted or even nonexistent.'" Hint, hint: Henry Waxman.
Update: A former US official who worked in the Middle East comments: "We will never see those records. Note there was not a single person in the group with any actual experience in intelligence, the Middle East, WMD, classical weapons, or indeed anything else. It is all about spin."

On some level, though, it's completely absurd that this question has dominated our national debate with, in particular, the "serious" and "grownup" position being that you can never say Bush lied. After all, we're right now in the middle of a major presidential campaign. The campaign, as campaigns tend to be, is waged by big league politicians. And I've heard Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, John McCain, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and all the rest all try to mislead the voters on a whole variety of subjects over the course of the months.

Nobody finds this particularly shocking. Indeed, anyone who doesn't recognize that there's a lot of BS and hocus pocus out there on the campaign trail would be dismissed as a naive child.

Alright, but, there is something I don't like about the tone of all this. The "serious" approach to talking about politics-- the contrast to Hiatt-- shouldn't be that it's okay to accuse people of lying just because politicians lie a lot. It should be that it's okay and adult to accuse people when they actually are misleading or lie, and otherwise, it's not.

We should just be clear about that. There should be no norm according to which anyone should have to accept pundits' calling them a liar just because they're in politics and running for election. Pundits who baselessly accuse politicians of lying should actually be disciplined by their employers.

Oops- this paragraph,

Nobody finds this particularly shocking. Indeed, anyone who doesn't recognize that there's a lot of BS and hocus pocus out there on the campaign trail would be dismissed as a naive child.

In my last post should have been italizized. It's a quote from Matt, not my own sentence, but somehow the tags on this page to format your comments have started working differently then they used to, and a space between paragraphs now takes the tag off.

From far outside the beltway it doesn't matter whether Bush thinks he lied or not. It doesn't matter whether Hiatt thinks Bush lied or not. It doesn't matter if Bush thought he was doing God's will or if Hiatt was his acolyte, or not.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and Bush has taken us down that road. Today, seven years after the election of this "conservative" president, our government is more intrusive in personal affairs, more indebted, less capable of protecting America, and has ceded influence throughout the Middle East to the Ayatollahs of Iran and throughout Asia to the Communist Chinese.

Whether they lied or are simply fools is for history to judge. Without question it's a pretty impressive set of failures of "conservative" values, and the fruit by which America's conservative tree should rightly be judged.

Today we know with assurance that if Bush's election was really God's will, as claimed by our friends in the religious right, then Pastor Wright's "intemperate" statement was correct in its conclusion.

Why not just admit that Bush mainly stuck to misleading, while delegating the lying to Cheney and the Cabinet?

Duncan Black (aka Atrios) rarely brings up the war now.

Jim-Bob appears to have reading difficulties on top of that fetish for licking human blood off his hands. Quel fucking surprise. But that was a nice Marshall McLuhan moment for him.

If Fred Hiatt had been sold a car by someone using the same rhetorical tactics as Bush to sell the war, he'd be suing the bastard. It's that simple. Whether he feels the impunity to continue bullshitting because he feels somehow implicated, or whether the reverse applies, and he has no stake in the consequences, as opposed to the personal loss of buying a lemon from a bullshit artist, is something only he knows.

Harvey, I have to emphatically disagree with your assertion that Saddam wasn't a threat. Of course he was, and of course the intelligence suggested he was more of a threat than he actually was. The question isn't whether the intelligence was right or wrong--we know the answer to that. That's not the issue Matt has raised.

Stupid, the bit I quoted was from a SOTU address, which I think is a pretty high-profile speech. This was the case made in the most prominent and direct fashion.

Mississippi, you don't remember Gore crowing about how Cheney had screwed up the Gulf War by leaving Saddam in power? He did.

Glaivester, my point is that Matt's version of the events is inconsistent with what we know about the American people. The American people were fine with Clinton's attacks on Iraq because they hated Saddam. There was no need to lie to the American people to motivate them to war against Iraq. The model of the American public that Matt is using is badly flawed, and to the extent that he thinks others must also be using it he doubles the mistake.

Nor as stupid as Thomas - Listen up you stupid fucks: no one cares what Rockefeller said, what Bill Clinton said, what Hillary Clinton said. None of them drove us to war. And to the extent that they spouted nonsense suggesting that Iraq was a threat to our national security, yes, they too were lying.

I love that trait in morons and little children - the belief that if they chant something repeatedly they can make it true. Rockefeller voted for it after seeing the intelligence briefs. Hillary voted for it. In fact the vote was 78-22 agreeing with George Bush, Al Gore, and Bill Clinton that Iraq was a threat. The only difference between that and the 1998 Vote Clinton had Congress do that the official policy of the USA was to seek regime change in Iraq - was that almost all Dems voted with Clinton that force might be necessary to get rid of Saddam. And the Congressional vote would make Bill's decision to pull the trigger legal.

But it was the Republicans who, under Bush's guidance, started a war of aggression against the people of Iraq. Bush lied and hundreds of thousands of human beings were slaughtered. It's that simple.

It was not Republicans, but the judgement of 15 nations on the Security Council, the intelligence services of 20 major countries most familiar with Irag, half the Democrats in Congress, almost all the liberal Democrats running the MSM, the Democrat-appointed CIA director, and Bill Clinton - that Saddam had to go or tell the truth.

If anyone lied, it was Saddam, who told his own generals that they had huge reserves of nerve gas and anthrax ready. The generals leaked this out. They also said, and this was confirmed by Saddam and 20 in his inner circle that he was just waiting for his bribes to end all sanctions - and he then would mount a crash nuke and ICBM program "to make Zionist Crusaders quake with fear, and to get the Bomb and a missile delivery system before the Persians did.

PS - the bulk of Iraqis killed were by AQI, Sectarian Iraqi death squads, and Iraqi religious fanatics. Same pattern as in other Muslim-on-Muslim mass slaughters in Iran, the Iran-Iraq war, Sudan, Lebanon, Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.

****************************
Steve Duncan - Bush, Cheney and others deserve to die for their genocidal crimes. Hang them. That's the discredit due to the human race.

Well Stevie, if you feel that strongly, by all means write or call your targets or send a letter to the newspapers and TV people explaining why you wish to have Bush, Cheney, Hillary, Bill Clinton, Harold Ford, Diane Feinstein, Lieberman and others who acted or voted to bring on the Iraq War. Please leave them your name and address.
Someone will get back to you.

****************************
In a way it doesn't matter if he lied. He is still guilty of the war. A President isn't supposed to be misled by the intelligence services.
Posted by Bengt Larsson

How insipid. You clearly have never been a manager or leader that has to act on incomplete or possibly imperfect information. Every President has faced significant intelligence failures and been blindsided by events or surprise hostilities.

Of course, maybe you are holding other Presidents like FDR (Pearl Harbor), Carter (embassy takeover) to a standard that only the Godlike Black Messiah can achieve by using his divine powers. For with his Earth-spanning awareness & intellect, Black Messiah will know when intelligence officials are wrong, and exactly what they missed. The Great One will also be able to tell American businesses what was wrong in the intel that went into economic forecasts, and know when doctors are about to treat a patient incorrectly based on other doctor's diagnosis being wrong or bad test results leading them astray....

There is a poster, whose name I forget but it sounds like Deus Ex Machina, who has consistently held the correct line on the war: It was the world's most expensive campaign commercial.

It's somewhere between that and the 'just because' explanation. When a Great Power launches wars of aggression just because, it deserves the consequences, because such actions are pure, dumb decadence.

In a way, the people who say 'the debate on whether it was the right decision belongs to the past' have a point, in the sense that the decision was made, the large minority of popular opposition was marginalised, and most high-profile dissenters were kept off the air.

The debate becomes this: can a country in which such things happen be saved? Fred Hiatt's continued ability to command a bully pulpit for bullshit is not determinative, but it is indicative.

. Wilson knew full well that we'd end up in WW I; he still campaigned on 'He kept us out of war'. And won.

How on earth could Wilson have known in the fall of 1916 that the Germans would reintroduce unrestricted submarine warfare in the spring of 1917?

I think this is the best post I've read on Matt's blog. Absolutely excellent; eloquent and spot-on.

Neo-Confederate Jew Fearer:

I love that trait in morons and little children - the belief that if they chant something repeatedly they can make it true. Rockefeller voted for it after seeing the intelligence briefs. Hillary voted for it. In fact the vote was 78-22 agreeing with George Bush, Al Gore, and Bill Clinton that Iraq was a threat.

Interestingly enough, that 78-22 vote doesn't make the majority right -- it just made the vote win.

That's how things work in a democracy. Voting a certain way doesn't make someone right.

The 22 were right, and the 78 were wrong.

The 22 got it right after not just 'having access' to the 'intelligence'. Some of them, like Russ Feingold actually read it, too -- unlike, say, Hillary Clinton.

Little children who think that a majority makes them right say such things. Surely no adult would make such a laughably bad argument -- i.e., if "both" Republican and Democratic politicians believe something, it must be true.

Matt - seriously, and I will be happy to send you my awful undergraduate paper on this - if you want added support on the fact that Iraq fit into a particular preconceived worldview and was an "idea-based" war rather than a drinking problem:

Rice, Condoleeza. "Promoting the National Interest."
Foreign Affairs 79.1 (2000): 45-62.

United States. National Security Council. The National Security Strategy of the United
States. Washington: GPO, 2002.

YES!!

I think you just diagnosed the cause of BDS there, buddy. And the wingers thought it was psychosomatic...

How can you not be deranged by anger in the face of what you accurately described as a bad faith scam?

Thomas, you sound uncannily like Robert Powell -- the exact same obsessions, the exact same pompous idiocy. I wonder why?

In any case, it's great to have you around to ridicule. I was concerned the original Robert Powell might have vanished after, in a moment of weakness, he admitted that the real reason he wanted this war is because he hates the dirty towelheads.

Thomas:

he explicitly rejected the "imminence" standard that Matt insists he didn't reject:
"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

Matt's not a good reader.

Actually, Bush did not reject the imminence standard -- neither there nor anywhere else.

However, I understand how extremely stupid people, like Thomas or Robert Powell, might think he had. This is because extremely stupid people aren't good readers.

He lied.

Thanks to 23456 for supplying a link so everyone can see what a lying scumbag he is. Saying that after several oil spikes caused by the Saudis, twelve years of Iraq's blatantly violating the ceasefire agreement, plus various murderous terrorist acts by Arabs culminating in 9/11, that the American people were "fed up with being jerked around by Arabs" only makes one a racist in the pitiful bunker inhabited by degenerates like 23456.

Anyone trying to make the case that Bush lied should read the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, written by a Democrat, passed in an overwhelming bi-partisan vote, and signed into law by Clinton. Documents captured after the fall of Baghdad indicate that Iraqi generals, and perhaps Saddam himself thought Iraq had wmd capacity in 2003, so
Bush knew better? It is to laugh.

The Bush people decided that the invasion was in the national interest so, rather like every other administration does, they enthusiastically made the case. Unfortunately, they chose to fill the airways with so many justifications that some of them were bound to turn out wrong. These of course are the ones focused on by opponents in a sleazy and dishonest attempt to re-write history.

There is solid evidence that most Americans had supported the idea of regime change in Iraq since 1991. Failure to "finish the job" was one of the main complaints of Perot voters who put Clinton in the White House, and good polling data shows that this attitude persisted. The idea that Bush had to lie to get support is unprovable nonsense.

Robert! It's great to have you and your wog-hatred back in town!

Why is it that you and Thomas sound so eerily similar, do you think?

perhaps Saddam himself thought Iraq had wmd capacity in 2003

Haven't lost your penchant for hilarious stupidity, I see.

Again, this idea that because the American people supported "regime change" they supported a large-scale invasion and indefinite occupation of Iraq cracks me up. "Hey, you said you wouldn't mind getting a new TV for our apartment, so obviously you supported my breaking into that other guy's apartment, murdering him in his sleep, and taking his TV."

By the way, this brings up a very important component of the bullshit that the Administration used in the runup to invading Iraq. In addition to bullshitting about the reasons why an invasion was necessary, they also bullshitted about how many troops a successful occupation would require, how much it was going to cost in terms of dollars and lives, how long it was going to last, and so on.

And to this day this rhetorical tactic remains a crucial component of GOP bullshit about Iraq: they talk about possible benefits to continuing our participation in the Iraq civil war (and increasingly about possible harms to discontinuing our participation) but what they never do is seriously attempt to account for the actual costs of our ongoing participation. And of course any policy can sound like a good idea if you only look at the possible benefits, and then ignore the costs. Which is how their bullshit about Iraq has always worked, but it turns out bullshitting the American people into ignoring the costs stopped working, and no later than the 2006 elections.

Matt: "The administration had a different, more nuanced and more medium-term set of concerns about Iraq. It believed that preventive war was the best way to deal with those concerns."

WTF? What the FUCK does THAT mean?

I'll tell you what it means. Yglesias is a fucking idiot.

He sits there - with tons of evidence that Bush and Cheney had four primary interests in Iraq - oil, ME hegemony (which means "oil"), Israel (well, the neocons did, not Cheney so much), and war profiteering - and tells us that Bush had a "more nuanced" view of the situation in Iraq that justified "preventive war"!

Somebody get this idiot off The Atlantic blog staff before he beggars the entire magazine!

What kind of brain dead, blind, stupid remark is that?

Yglesias does EXACTLY what he's supposedly bitching about here - he can't make the bald-faced statement, not only that Bush LIED, but that he LIED FOR CRIMINAL REASONS!

Why? Because "Very Serious Pundits" don't accuse the President of being a criminal!

Jesus Baron Von Christ!

> How insipid. You clearly have never been a
> manager or leader that has to act on incomplete or
> possibly imperfect information. Every President
> has faced significant intelligence failures and
> been blindsided by events or surprise hostilities.

Yeah - its not as if the CIA sends someone to the President's vacation home to hand him a red-bordered folder titled "bin Laden Determined to Strike in US".

Cranky

Re: Matt doesn't remember the 2000 election, since he was in Jr High back then, but the rest of us remember that the two candidates were busy arguing over who would be more likely to "take out" Saddam, and the reason they were arguing that way was because the US had been in a low-grade war with Iraq for 9 years by then, and almost everyone saw Saddam as a threat.

I wasn't in high school at the time and I do remember the election of 2000. Foreign plicy issues were way on the back burner. It was an election about domestic issues to the extent it was about anything. Though George Bush did promise a more humble foreign policy.

Re: We had tried the alternative in Afghanistan, one will recall, and that alternative approach didn't end well.

What are you talking about? If you mean to say that we ought hav been more vigilant against Al Qaida then no one disputes that. If you're trying to say we should attack any country anywhere that might maybe possible could be a threat to us someday, then that's bullshit. There's a huge difference between vigilance and aggressive imperialism based on lies.

JonF:

I wasn't in high school at the time and I do remember the election of 2000.

Yes, but Robert Powell -- like most people with pronounced racist tendencies -- can't differentiate between reality and his disturbed fantasies. In this particular case, because he wants Bush and Gore to have been striving to tell him how they were going to Smite The Brown People on his behalf, he truly believes that that's in fact what happened.

Remember, he's completely convinced that from 1991 onward most of America was filled with a deep yearning to invade Iraq. He's not sure what prevented this from happening before the giant post-9/11 propaganda campaign (sun spots?), but he knows this yearning was there. Presenting him with facts and history will only frighten and confuse him.


Interestingly the case that Tony Blair lied is much clearer and this kind of analysis has been the received wisdom in the informed west for a long time.

Firstly Blair did think it was possible that Saddam had some some small amount of chemical weapons so he only misled his public when he said that they had dangerous stocks of "WMD".

However Blair did unequivocally lie when he said that Iraq's offensive potential and the threat it posed was the basis for the UK going to war.

In the UK, as in the US, they got away with it because the establishment was in on the second big lie and generally comfortable with the idea of misleading the public "for the good of the nation" in this way. We are all Straussians now.

Of course among the educated classes world wide there was never any doubt that this was a discretionary war waged to terrorize and discipline the middle east, to increase western control over oil reserves and to give a hot "war" injection to the status of the ruling parties in the aggressor countries.

It really is only in US that anyone dares to suggest otherwise in public anymore. You should ask yourselves why.

But more to the point, it's perfectly clear that the whole pitch was made in bad faith.

Democrats will never come to terms with the bad faith of Bush/Cheney in the war with Iraq UNTIL they can admit that Bill Clinton peddled this "bad faith" stuff too - I mean IF Bush didn't have any real proof of WMD along the "mushroom cloud" status than Clinton did NOT have any proof either. Dems always say that people honestly thought Saddam had WMD because, you know, Bill Clinton peddled pre-emptive war and WMD too - remember.

Remember that Bill Clinton said those "sixteen words were just a mistake" but clearly those words were not just some little, tiny mistake. Bill said this even as Joe Wilson and Plame evidence were rising in the news. That said, at what point does BS turn into "bad faith"?

"Indeed, anyone who doesn't recognize that there's a lot of BS and hocus pocus out there on the campaign trail would be dismissed as a naive child."

I fully expect Obama to GET US OUT OF THIS WAR IN IRAQ. And I especially don't want partisan bloggers to make cheap excuses for Obama if he doesn't do this within the first two years of office. What good is the word "change" if Obama keeps Bush's torture and wiretapping policies, which are, among other examples of extremely astonishing acts of bona fide "Bad Faith".

Without impeaching Bush - it only demonstrates that US presidents my lie to us when ever they want, about anything - and we, citizens simply don't care. Why then does ANY president have to tell any truth at all to any American? It is very sad that Bush and Cheney will not be impeached. But unlike so-called conservative voters, who collectively don't like questioning a president (unless he is a Dem), I am truly hopeful that liberals will insist that their nominee, Obama does what he promises to do and that liberal voters WILL HOLD him to account if he fails to do what he has been campaigning about all this time.

Rumsfeld was given the opportunity to agree that the Admin's "knowledge" was simply a shorthand for "strongly believed". He rejected that with a display of impatience over such hair-splitting. Bush was responsible for his cabinet.

The White House knew it had misled the public over the "16 words" in the SOTU and issued a change. (Nobody ever sees the change.)

The White House suppressed the dissent about the aluminum tubes actual use.

The White House never acknowledged that it didn't have hard intelligence about anything. It had rumors and paranoia.

Lies are different than perjury. A potential perjurer is given the benefit of a doubt because it is a legal issue. A lie is a moral act and there isn't that leeway.

They lied. Repeatedly.

And it also believed, correctly I think, that the public would not support an action of pure "anticipatory self-defense."

The point that the American public would not support a preventative action in the face of the real threat calculus goes without saying, but you've conceded an absolute whopper there Matt.

"Anticipatory self-defense" is an accepted doctrine under international law. ASD is governed by the Caroline case rule, which requires strict proportionality, and is based on "a necessity of self-defence, instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment of deliberation."

The Iraq war was not a case of ASD, and nobody argues so. It manifestly fails to meet the Caroline case threshold of necessity and immediacy of action, and grossly breaches the proportionality requirement.

Remember, the new standard is that the evidence backing the invasion of Iraq Bush Jr & Cheney desired was persuasive because a lot of people were persuaded.

It's the kind of definitional gaming that right wingers used to get real mad at when Bill Clinton did it, but now it's some sort of magisterial way of protecting the public from its own skepticisms.

So many lies, so little time.

I am old enough to remember Nixon lying about Vietnam in the 1968 election ("I have a secret plan to end the war"). I certainly remember the bamboozlement that went on before the start of the Iraq war. It was clear to me at the time that the Iraq war was timed for maximum benefit for the 2004 US elections, and I have seen nothing since then that would indicate otherwise. Not having the facts on their side, and not able to reveal their true reasons, the administration did not hesitate to resort to the lie direct to make their case. There were many people who either bought into the lies, or who were willing to give us the benefit of the doubt, but the testimony of the deluded does not make the lies that deluded them into the truth. Fred Hiatt was actively complicit in this process, and why anyone now would pay the slightest attention to anything he had to say is beyond me. I would not trust him to take out the trash, and if he said that the Sun was shining outside I would assume it was raining.

Now, the bamboozlement continues, as we can see in this thread, but at this late stage it will only convince those who actively want to be bamboozled. The Security Council certainly did not support us going to war, and we would have lost the second vote, the one to authorize it, if we had let it happen. Neither the international community, or international public opinion, supported us going to war. Al Gore only ran on a policy to remove Saddam by force in some distant parallel universe where unicorns rule the Earth.

The invasion of Iraq was a war crime of the first order, and it essential to the health of our democracy that those responsible be brought to justice.

23456, I don't know why I remind you of someone else, but your pretending that I'm someone else confuses me. Am I to respond to your posts quoting me but saying your quoting someone else? It's a bizarre sort of behavior, but I suppose it fits with the generalized paranoia endemic on the left these days. (You are a truther, aren't you?)

JonF, you misunderstand the point. The doctrine that Matt proposes we follow would not permit the use of force in Afghanistan prior to 9/11. Would not permit it. That's the model of the world Matt has, so I say, great, own up to its successes and its failures. It would have kept us out of Iraq, and it did in fact keep us from Afghanistan when it would have saved American lives.


But then it turned out that the war was a disaster, and the much-feared "isolationist" impulse which said that war is a tool to be used to counter bona fide aggression rather than on speculative ventures was vindicated.

What?

When Bush talked about "isolationist", he was only playing a card trick developed by Karl Rove because people were starting to call Bush an isolationist on the grounds that Bush sees diplomacy as appeasement and therefore would not talk to anyone he didn't feel like talking too, nore listen to anybody that didn't see eye to eye with Bush and Cheney's agenda.

So Bush jumped out and immediately name-called Dems "isolationist" BEFORE he could be officially labeled with the term himself.

I think everyone knows (exact maybe Matt) that Bush and Cheney's war in Iraq was never anything BUT a speculative venture for that Big Oil pipedream known of as the Hydrocarbon Framework Law - I mean Bush/Cheney did not build those "billion" dollars bases and the US embassy in Iraq because they thought they would leave Iraq after the trumped-up "bad faith" issues of aggression had been deal with in the country.

If I were you Matt, I don't think I'd help Bush write a new definition of the word "isolationist". Republicans don't like diplomacy, nation building, or spending money for foreign aid projects so they are the true the "isolationist" cult but they don't like being labeled with that particular word, so they play word tricks, designed to "project" the word onto Dems, but of course, it doesn't fit Democrat culture, now than does it?


Am I to respond to your posts quoting me but saying your quoting someone else? It's a bizarre sort of behavior

"Thomas," I appreciate this is difficult for you to understand, given that you are very, very stupid. But the only place I claimed to be quoting you was when I was, in fact, quoting you.

Hiatt and the Post Oped folks routinely used the word exaggerated to describe the administrations arguments about WMD in Iraq. Quite apart from the Constitution's treatment of treaties and our being original signatories to the UN Charter, what Hiatt was implicitly saying was that the Bushies went to Congress and the people and exagerrated matters so that they could obtain public funds to prosecute a war that the Bushies wanted to fight. That makes what Bush et al did fraud---to exaggerate is not to be truthful. Now Hiatt isn't even being truthful about Hiatt et al wrote and published in their own names. And all of this is pretty obvious to anyone who read those Opeds, or like I did wrote to Hiatt repeatedly pointing out what the word exaggeration actually means.

Thomas:

Am I to respond to your posts quoting me but saying your quoting someone else? It's a bizarre sort of behavior

Also, "Thomas," in addition to the fact the only place I claimed to be quoting you was when I was, in fact, quoting you, I have never quoted you while saying I'm quoting someone else.

Obviously this is confusing you. It's almost like you're Robert Powell -- he, like you, is very, very stupid, and hence easily confused.

Hey, a-holes up the line here and there: Al Gore was AGAINST the invasion of Iraq, and he gave a scorching speech on the subject in San Francisco in October of '02. His reward: Being called "insane," off his rocker, blinded by that phlogiston of the GOP worldview, "Bush-hatred."

Look: When Condi said, "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud," every sane and sentient informed human being recognized that to be a declaration of rabid madness and demagoguery. If you didn't you are hereby disqualified from the debate, so STFU.

Harvey Lobster is right that a key aspect of the disinformation campaign was the use of the inaccurate phrase WMD to cover what used to be called unconventional weapons. Although I think that usage predates 2000, it allowed the Bush adminstration to use the fact that it was likely that Iraq had fairly harmless biological or chemical weapons as a way of indicating that they were likely to have nuclear weapons.

Thomas' memory of support for the Iraq war could not be further off from reality than it is. There was not majority support for the war in Iraq until the war in Iraq became inevitable. And then it was the inevitability that made the war popular. Amercians don't like to believe that we go to war for bad reasons, so once we know that we are going to war we seem willing to assume there are good reasons. So it seems more accurate to say that it is not that Americans supported the war because they believed that Hussein was involved in 9/11 or posed an imminent threat. Rather they believed that Hussein was involved in 9/11 or posed an imminent threat because we were going to war with him.

As for whether Bush lied about the war, this seems to be a similar question to whether Clinton perjured himself. It appears that both created purposely misleading pictures, but recognizing that some of the misleading picture would come out built in deniability. "You thought I said X but really I said something which sounded like X and you were stupid enough to believe X." Not surprisingly while this can be a good legal tactic because the jury can think you are a jerk without thinking you are guilty of a crime, it is a bad political strategy. Essentially the Bush people are in the position of telling the third of the country that are not dead enders, but supported the war out of trust for Bush, we aren't liars, you are just idiot that we played for fools. Not surprisingly Bush's popularity is not high among that third of the country.

Apart from the slip-up Thomas quoted above, Bush was generally very careful not to say that war was justified by something less than an imminent threat--because the US at Nuremberg had defined starting a war on less than imminent threat as a capital war crime. The Poles were more of a long-term threat to Hitler in 1939 than Saddam was to the United States in 2003.

At the same time, Bush didn't want to be accused of lying, so he was usually very careful not to claim that whatever threat Saddam supposedly posed was "imminent," either.

Probably, if you carefully analyzed the information content of the Administration's pre-war speaches, and cancelled out all the contradictions, you'd find that the Administration said nothing at all.

When writing about Iraq, using the term wmd should be either "wmd" or WMDtm! It is a term designed to obfuscate. Like WW1 era mustard gas and suitcase nukes pose the same threat.

For pro-war posters to use the term WMD in a serious way should invoke a term like Godwins Law i.e loss of argument.

I've done two minutes of googling, which is more than some people are apparently capable of, and found a discussion of a Gallup poll from 1998. That poll found that, in 1998, 60% of the American people said they would favor the use of ground forces in a war against Iraq. That was higher than the percentage who supported the Gulf War when it began. So, yes, I think there's good reason to say that the American people didn't need to be sold on a war with Iraq. Matt's position to the contrary has no support whatsoever.

rea, the Bush administration put out a national security strategy that had at its center a move away from the imminence standard.

elle, yes, we all know that Gore opposed the war in 2002. But that doesn't change history: in 2000, he mocked Cheney for refusing to take Saddam out in the Gulf War. Gore was taking the politically popular position in 2000.

rea:

Apart from the slip-up Thomas quoted above, Bush was generally very careful not to say that war was justified by something less than an imminent threat--because the US at Nuremberg had defined starting a war on less than imminent threat as a capital war crime.

This is mostly right -- it was extremely important for the Bush administration not to disavow the imminent threat standard, and they definitely did not. What it incorrect, however, is that Bush slipped up in the State of the Union and did so. In fact he did not -- read it again, and you'll see his words were crafted with extreme care to allow Bush to reply to people saying Iraq wasn't an imminent threat WITHOUT clearly disavowing the imminent threat standard.

"Hiatt:

On Iraq’s nuclear weapons program? The president’s statements “were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates.”

The actual report (pg. 15):

(U) Conclusion 1: Statements by the President, Vice-President, Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor regarding a possible nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community.

Hiatt:

On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.”

The actual report (pg. 49):

(U) Conclusion 5: Statements by the President, Vice-President, Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense regarding Iraq’s possession of weapons of mass destruction were generally substantiated by intelligence information, though many statements made regarding ongoing production prior to late 2002 reflected a higher level of certainty than the intelligence judgments themselves.

Hiatt:

Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.”

The report (pg. 57):

(U) Conclusion 8: Statements by the President, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State that Iraq was developing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) that could be used to deviler chemical or biological weapons were generally substantiated by intelligence information, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community."

I'm beginning to see a pattern emerge...

Note that this most recent report didn't deal with the manipulation of intelligence by the Bush admin, only how they used the intelligence they were "given" by the intelligence community. The fact that they were basically "giving" themselves the information that they wanted is elided. What other reason would Doug "Stupidest Fucking Guy in the World" Feith's Office of Special Plans exist in the first place?

There was a huge amount of dissent from both within and outside the US intelligence community on this issue, its just none of the dissenting view made it into either the nighly news, the NY Times and Wash Post, or into the brains of most the twits who enabled or continue to apologize for this atrocity.

"Hiatt:

On Iraq’s nuclear weapons program? The president’s statements “were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates.”

The actual report (pg. 15):

(U) Conclusion 1: Statements by the President, Vice-President, Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor regarding a possible nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community.

Hiatt:

On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.”

The actual report (pg. 49):

(U) Conclusion 5: Statements by the President, Vice-President, Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense regarding Iraq’s possession of weapons of mass destruction were generally substantiated by intelligence information, though many statements made regarding ongoing production prior to late 2002 reflected a higher level of certainty than the intelligence judgments themselves.

Hiatt:

Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.”

The report (pg. 57):

(U) Conclusion 8: Statements by the President, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State that Iraq was developing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) that could be used to deviler chemical or biological weapons were generally substantiated by intelligence information, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community."

I'm beginning to see a pattern emerge...

Note that this most recent report didn't deal with the manipulation of intelligence by the Bush admin, only how they used the intelligence they were "given" by the intelligence community. The fact that they were basically "giving" themselves the information that they wanted is elided. What other reason would Doug "Stupidest Fucking Guy in the World" Feith's Office of Special Plans exist in the first place?

There was a huge amount of dissent from both within and outside the US intelligence community on this issue, its just none of these dissenting views made it into either the nightly news, the NY Times and Wash Post, or into the brains of most the twits who enabled or continue to apologize for this atrocity.

Hiatt:

On Iraq’s nuclear weapons program? The president’s statements “were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates.”

The actual report (pg. 15):

(U) Conclusion 1: Statements by the President, Vice-President, Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor regarding a possible nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community.

Hiatt:

On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.”

The actual report (pg. 49):

(U) Conclusion 5: Statements by the President, Vice-President, Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense regarding Iraq’s possession of weapons of mass destruction were generally substantiated by intelligence information, though many statements made regarding ongoing production prior to late 2002 reflected a higher level of certainty than the intelligence judgments themselves.

Hiatt:

Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.”

The report (pg. 57):

(U) Conclusion 8: Statements by the President, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State that Iraq was developing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) that could be used to deviler chemical or biological weapons were generally substantiated by intelligence information, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community.

I'm beginning to see a pattern emerge...

Note that this most recent report didn't deal with the manipulation of intelligence by the Bush admin, only how they used the intelligence they were "given" by the intelligence community. The fact that they were basically "giving" themselves the information that they wanted is elided. What other reason would Doug "Stupidest Fucking Guy in the World" Feith's Office of Special Plans exist in the first place?

There was a huge amount of dissent from both within and outside the US intelligence community on this issue, its just none of these dissenting views made it into either the nightly news, the NY Times and Wash Post, or into the brains of most the twits who enabled or continue to apologize for this atrocity.

sorry for multiple posts, I keep getting error messages from the Atlantic's server...

The Bush people decided that the invasion was in the national interest so, rather like every other administration does, they enthusiastically made the case. Unfortunately, they chose to fill the airways with so many justifications that some of them were bound to turn out wrong.

I'm surprised you don't sympathize more, Robert. After all, you yourself have shown considerable difficulty deciding which justification to settle on -- instead shifting, whack-a-mole-style, from one to another to another as 23456 and others knock them down. Enforcing international law? Ensuring stable access to oil? Saving the Iraqis from Saddam Hussein? Slaking American public bloodlust for Hussein's head? Induling public impatience with feckless brown people? Which is it?

There is solid evidence that most Americans had supported the idea of regime change in Iraq since 1991.

Even if this were true (and it's far from "solid", for reasons others have pointed out -- almost anybody will sign up for hypothetical consequence-free regime change), it's neither here nor there. Public support for something doesn't make that something either morally justifiable or sound policy. We don't (or shouldn't) make war and foreign policy by public opinion poll.

The idea that Bush had to lie to get support is unprovable nonsense.

Also irrelevant. Whether he *had* to lie is hard to say in my book, but that doesn't change the fact that he *did* lie, which is the important thing. That anyone can honestly deny this at this stage is frankly incomprehensible to me. So that, I'm afraid, leaves dishonest denial as the only explanation.

Thomas:

the Bush administration put out a national security strategy that had at its center a move away from the imminence standard

No, you fucking moron, they put out a national security strategy that had at its center an adaptation of the imminence standard:

For centuries, international law recognized that nations need not suffer an attack before they can lawfully take action to defend themselves against forces that present an imminent danger of attack. Legal scholars and international jurists often conditioned the legitimacy of preemption on the existence of an imminent threat—most often a visible mobilization of armies, navies, and air forces preparing to attack.

We must adapt the concept of imminent threat to the capabilities and objectives of today’s adversaries. Rogue states and terrorists do not seek to attack us using conventional means. They know such attacks would fail. Instead, they rely on acts of terror and, potentially, the use of weapons of mass destruction—weapons that can be easily concealed, delivered covertly, and used without warning.

This was obviously a way to claim the threat from Iraq COULD be called imminent, and therefore an invasion of Iraq would still fall within the imminence standard. They were extremely careful not to "move away" from the imminence standard, because they would therefore be explicitly throwing out the UN Charter and most of international law.

But don't sweat it, Thomas -- I know that you are easily confused.

Thomas is obviously correct--American patience with the aggressive, genocidal antics of Saddam Hussein was extremely limited from the time he started the war with the invasion, rape, and annexation of UN member and US ally, Kuwait. It didn't grow during the intervening years, especially for those of us who deployed to the region in combat roles and our families, as we killed perhaps a million of the most innocent Iraqis enforcing the sanctions some folks like to say were "working" while they were tightening Saddam's grip on power and enriching his collaborators.

It takes an incredible amount of stupidity, venality, callousness, and/or ignorance to seriously suggest that in 2003 there was some issue with "imminence" or "pre-emption" when an active state of war already existed between Iraq and the US, as it had done more or less continuously since 1991.

Robert Powell:

It takes an incredible amount of stupidity, venality, callousness, and/or ignorance to seriously suggest that in 2003 there was some issue with "imminence" or "pre-emption"

Fascinating! Well, you fucking moron, maybe you should take this incredible amount of stupidity, venality, callousness, and/or ignorance up with Condoleezza Rice:

[N]ew technology requires new thinking about when a threat actually becomes "imminent." So as a matter of common sense, the United States must be prepared to take action, when necessary, before threats have fully materialized.

Preemption is not a new concept. There has never been a moral or legal requirement that a country wait to be attacked before it can address existential threats.

ryan--
So far no one, least of all the almost totally data-free 23456, has "knocked down" a single one of the many factual justifications for the invasion I've cited. But then, who's counting? This blog is mostly about lemming-like regurgitation of the current fashion-statement politics. Who needs real history, data, or facts. We've got conspiracy theories and cartoon bad-guys!

Great quote, bozo. What you omit is that this was being discussed as a general policy, not a justification for the invasion. Rice is on record repeatedly pointing out that Iraq was "a very special case", and that pre-emption was not the justification for the invasion rather the ceasefire and Resolutions violation. Ditto Lord Goldsmith in his written finding for Parliament.

That's the problem with you kids--you see something on tv, or lift a quote out of context, and you think your intelligent. Sorry, it's just garden-variety bullshit.

George Tenet said it was a "slam dunk."

What gets me is those who act like Saddam was some sort of Mandela type figure. He was a genocidal dictator and it's good he's gone.

Robert Powell:

the many factual justifications for the invasion I've cited

Yes, yes, Robert -- we know that you hate the filthy wogs. But that's to be expected from an old, tired, moronic white man who thinks black southerners are just about to start voting Republican.

23456 is obviously correct!

Robert Powell:

Great quote, bozo. What you omit is that this was being discussed as a general policy, not a justification for the invasion...

That's the problem with you kids--you see something on tv, or lift a quote out of context, and you think your intelligent.

Condoleezza Rice:

[N]ew technology requires new thinking about when a threat actually becomes "imminent." So as a matter of common sense, the United States must be prepared to take action, when necessary, before threats have fully materialized.

Preemption is not a new concept. There has never been a moral or legal requirement that a country wait to be attacked before it can address existential threats. As George Shultz recently wrote, "If there is a rattlesnake in the yard, you don't wait for it to strike before you take action in self-defense."

George Schultz:

Act Now

The danger is immediate. Saddam Hussein must be removed...


The evidence is clear that Hussein continues to amass weapons of mass destruction. He has also demonstrated a willingness to use them against internal as well as external targets. By now, the risks of inaction clearly outweigh the risks of action. If there is a rattlesnake in the yard, you don't wait for it to strike before you take action in self-defense.

Robert, I don't know if I've mentioned this previously, but you are the STUPIDEST FUCKING PERSON ON EARTH.

"What gets me is those who act like Saddam was some sort of Mandela type figure...."

Ah, there's a nice bed of straw for the rats to nest in.

23456 is obviously correct!

Ah, it's good to see that Zeffirelli's Jesus still has a stick up his ass the size of a telegraph pole, and will bullshit at will in the most pompous manner possible.

Even if his preposterous 'Oceania has always been at war with Iraq' argument had any substance, Bobbitt would be pressed to explain what changed on the ground to turn it into a conflict that gets Americans killed and maimed, other than that Bush wanted it to change, and fucktards like Bobbitt cheered it out.

It's like saying that the pot of water on the burner has been bubbling for ages, and it just so happened that Bobbitt dipped his nadgers into it.

Thomas:

23456, I don't know why I remind you of someone else, but your pretending that I'm someone else confuses me.

Robert Powell:

That's the problem with you kids--you see something on tv, or lift a quote out of context, and you think your intelligent.

Huh. Robert & Thomas -- I see you two share not just the same pompous idiocy, but make the same grammatical mistakes. Why do you think that is?

pseudonymous in nc,

I need to know right now who you are referring to as "Bobbitt," and why.

I know what I hope the answer is, but it's too beautiful for me to even hope it's true.

23456, I'm not Robert, and I'm sure Matt can confirm that for you, if you'd like. Further, I didn't make a grammatical mistake, and you should be embarrassed to think I did. (Robert did make a mistake, a common one in internet comments. Maybe every commenter making that mistake is really the same person--the truth is out there!)

Thomas:

I didn't make a grammatical mistake, and you should be embarrassed to think I did.

Actually, you did -- the problem is that in my rush to enjoy it, I accidentally clipped the sentence immediately before the mistake (where in fact you did use "your" correctly). Here you go:

23456, I don't know why I remind you of someone else, but your [not mistake] pretending that I'm someone else confuses me. Am I to respond to your posts quoting me but saying your [mistake] quoting someone else?

Now that we've cleared that up, I'm also available to help you understand that I never quoted you improperly.

To recap:

Many of the same people who found the evidence of an imminent WMD threat from Saddam's Iraq persuasive in 2003 still find that evidence persuasive.

Those people who as evidence revealed were actually correct in 2003 are supposedly wrong today for pointing out that the people who were persuaded in 2003 were both wrong in 2003 and now.

However, those persuaded in 2003 that Saddam's Iraq possessed an imminent level threat of WMD such that the U.S., the UK, and a fake coalition would invade & occupy the nation still claim that it is evidence in their favor that other people were similarly wrongly persuaded in 2003.

It's a concise, brilliant argument, in a sort of broken-headed way.

23456 is obviously correct!

23456 made a mistake! And admitted it! He's a moron! And everyone who's ever made a similar mistake is 23456!

As for my original confusion: JonF was clearly responding to my comment, and you, in response to his comment, referred to Robert Powell's comment, conflating mine and his. I know you think that Robert and I are the same, but I wasn't sure what to make of you're confusion.

(Now I'm just having fun with you. Perhaps you can tell Matt that misspellings are meaningful.)

23456 made a mistake! And admitted it! He's a moron! And everyone who's ever made a similar mistake is 23456!

Yes, indeed -- it would be quite a "burn," as the third graders say, if I'd ever claimed that making a mistake or making one and admitting to it makes someone a moron. Likewise if I'd ever said that each possible human mistake can only be made by one human. Of course, I never did, so you don't have, as the adults say, a "point."

What does make people morons is making mistakes and not admitting it. And so as to avoid that, I'll say that you are correct that I conflated you and Robert Powell in that instance (intentionally), and that I was mistaken not to understand that that's what you were referring to.

Now, perhaps you will admit you were wrong that Bush explicitly rejected the imminence standard in the 2003 State of the Union address, and that you made this mistake precisely because you're "not a good reader." Then you can admit you were wrong that the Bush administration tried to "move away" from the imminence standard in the 2002 National Security Strategy.

If you can do so, then we'll be making some progress for humankind. If not, I'll have to stand by my evaluation (based on the standards just stated) that you are indeed a moron.

Not that it matters, but I doubt Thomas and Robert Powell are the same person. For one thing, their preferred bottom-line justifications for the war are different. For Thomas, near as I can tell, it's "The threat really was real, really!" while for Robert, it's something like, "Saddam was a bad actor violating international law and after 9/11 people were pissed at Arabs behaving badly." OK, not a huge difference but a difference nonetheless.

I've said this before, but I suspect that if you got Robert on the analyst's couch, you'd find that what's behind his stubborn resistance to certain obvious truths is a fervent desire not to have to admit to himself that his service in post-ceasefire Iraq was service in an unjust cause -- that he was, in effect, used by his own government for cynical ends. He's roughly analagous to one of the French soldiers occupying the ex-German Rhineland after WWI -- serving to uphold a draconian semi-peace whose terms were so onerous and impossible for a sovereign country to meet that they represented a guaranteed recipe for future conflict.

The consistent thread of US policy toward Iraq from the end of the first Gulf War to the present day has been an effort to deny Iraq full sovereignty over its territory and airspace and to deny it the capacity to defend itself independently. These were illegitimate goals to pursue against a dictator whose external aggression had been (properly) rolled back and they are doubly illegitimate goals to pursue against a would-be sovereign democracy.

It's just that Hiatt believed, as did most elites on the right and the hawkish segment of the left, that the sheeplike American were insufficiently attuned to the genius of aggressive warfare . . .

I think you're too kind. They didn't see any "genius to aggressive warfare" -- they barely gave the war any thought at all. They saw that Bush was determined to launch a war, believed it would be quick, easy and painless, and they wanted to be on the winning team when the whole thing was over.

It was simply a question of wanting to be able to say they had supported America's grand and glorious Iraqi adventure. Except it turned out to be neither grand nor glorious, and now they don't want to admit that they barely gave it any thought at all.

It's just that Hiatt believed, as did most elites on the right and the hawkish segment of the left, that the sheeplike American were insufficiently attuned to the genius of aggressive warfare . . .

I think you're too kind. They didn't see any "genius to aggressive warfare" -- they barely gave the war any thought at all. They saw that Bush was determined to launch a war, believed it would be quick, easy and painless, and they wanted to be on the winning team when the whole thing was over.

It was simply a question of wanting to be able to say they had supported America's grand and glorious Iraqi adventure. Except it turned out to be neither grand nor glorious, and now they don't want to admit that they barely gave it any thought at all.

Ryan:

I doubt Thomas and Robert Powell are the same person

You may be correct, but if so, I think my surmise can be justified as understandable horror at the possiblity that America has two people this hilariously pompous and stupid.

In truth I was also struck initially by how much Thomas' argument echoed Robert Powell's.

23456

Why are you posting comments? Anything of value in your remarks is superseded by that chip on your shoulder!

I imagine that there are many millions of Americans whose "argument echoes" similarly. After all, the actual facts are that Saddam Hussein started the war in 1991; attempts to bring the war to an end without actually winning it caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people while undermining the only international system we have to oppose such states as Ba'athist Iraq; and given ample opportunity to resolve the situation peacefully, Iraq's regime opted to push for the win they felt collaborators like Chirac could provide them with.

Lots of us think that if we're dragged into a war by an aggressive, genocidal police state, we should try to win rather than play for a tie.

The geniuses here who think understanding history involves reading the minds of various leaders, subscribing to vast conspiracy theories, and basing their analysis on rumor, gossip, and assumptions from hindsight, should get a life. No matter how secure you feel in the echo-chamber, in real life I expect we'll be involved in Iraq at least long enough to frustrate your longing for an American defeat.

I think ryan and 23456 are the same person.

Powell:

Those who cheer and those who oppose the US' invasion & occupation of Iraq are both "secure" in the "echo-chamber", including yourself. The ones who are not secure are the troops serving in the field and Iraqis themselves, all possessing a variety of opinions on the matter and not some mute surrogates representing any degree of sacrifice on your part.

Your having argued that a U.S. invasion & occupation was necessary since 1991 makes you no less securely present in the echo-chamber, and the fact that your preferences have been expressed by the political leaders of the U.S. government do not make you some heroic crusader braving a dangerous world while those who disagree are cowering elsewhere.

Cut out the morality pretense -- you've done nothing virtuous by dint of having cheerled yourself.

(And, no, I don't think Powell is Thomas. Rather, Powell would like to be Timothy Garton Ash.)

Dearleader nyc: "I keep getting error messages from the Atlantic's server..."

This is because the IT staff at The Atlantic is too stupid to properly configure the Apache Web server which runs sixty percent or more of the Web sites in the world.

They're fucking morons.

Ignore the error messages, they mean nothing but incompetence on the part of the idiots at The Atlantic.

Powell is a fucking propagandist. Nobody could be as stupid as he appears to be. Therefore, he's a paid propagandist.

We KNOW that both the Republicans and the Zionist freak organizations have paid "astro-turfers" posting on the Net. That's been revealed in the MSM.

Powell - and probably Thomas, since he does use essentially the same arguments and style - doing "cut and paste" most of the time. Powell hasn't modified his line word for word in months here.

They're trolls. Ignore them.

You might have something mr. powell is you weren't lying about, well, prety much everything.

Yes, in defiance of international law and treaty the United States was committing acts of war against Iraq, and yes, both those illegal acts of aggression and the brutal sanctions put in place (mostly by the United States) were gravely harming the Iraqi people.

But to call the time between Iraq's surrender and Bush's unprovoked assault on the people of Iraq a war is to call an adult bully repeatedly smashing a brick in the face of a four-year-old a "fight."

Your pretending concern for the welfare of the Iraqi people would be a joke if it were not simply a reflection of how much you wanted to ensure they were brutalized by something far worse than Saddam Hussein - the chaos of occupation.

I am glad, by the way, that you bring up "hindsight." It reminds everyone of two things: first, that the grandiose claims of nuclear destruction from Iraq were proven to be untrue and second that the evidence that these claims were bullshit was available to any but the dumbest of Americans. Statements by Democrats cowed into supporting Bush's war of aggression do not change this. Statements by Democrats too stupid to notice the truth do not change this.

For Bush, who (as President) is responsible for Rice and Cheney's remarks it is clear that he knew there was no national security reason to invade Iraq. None of the evidence ever stood up to even minimal scrutiny. To claim Bush didn't know that he and his administration were peddling lies merely makes him the author of a brutal unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation because he was dumber than a dirty fucking hippy.

Karlene:

Anything of value in your remarks is superseded by that chip on your shoulder!

I wouldn't call it a chip on my shoulder, but rather well-earned horror and amusement at the inanity of human beings like Robert Powell. I mean, it was bad enough in (say) January, 2003, but to face the exact same thing today is a little difficult. Their determination to avoid reality is both very, very funny and very frightening.

Take this, for instance. Powell made the hilariously stupid claim that Condoleezza Rice was talking about preemption and imminent threats as "general policy," when she was obviously talking about Iraq in the same sense that the sky is obviously blue. It's not something sane humans can argue about. Yet when I produced evidence for this (there's much more, if you actually read the speech or were alive in 2002) he refused to acknowledge it, instead retreating to his standard pompous idiocy. He walked straight out of George Orwell's famous essay "Politics and the English Language":

[O]ne ought to recognize that the present political chaos is connected with the decay of language, and that one can probably bring about some improvement by starting at the verbal end. If you simplify your English, you are freed from the worst follies of orthodoxy. You cannot speak any of the necessary dialects, and when you make a stupid remark its stupidity will be obvious, even to yourself. Political language -- and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists -- is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. One cannot change this all in a moment, but one can at least change one's own habits, and from time to time one can even, if one jeers loudly enough, send some worn-out and useless phrase -- some jackboot, Achilles' heel, hotbed, melting pot, acid test, veritable inferno, or other lump of verbal refuse -- into the dustbin, where it belongs.

My (accurately) calling Powell a fucking moron is in part an attempt to "jeer loudly enough." If that means you don't get anything out of the evidence I provide, well, I regret it. But I would argue that it's you who should become more like me, not the other way around.

Thomas:

I think ryan and 23456 are the same person.

Yes, yes, that's a witty jape, Thomas. Congratulations.

Now: you were wrong that Bush explicitly rejected the imminence standard in the 2003 State of the Union address, and you were wrong precisely because you're "not a good reader." You were also wrong that the Bush administration tried to "move away" from the imminence standard in the 2002 National Security Strategy. Someone who was a non-moron would acknowledge this, and reflect on the reasons why he was so incredibly wrong.

It's sad that a guy who often references high legal and moral principle in defense of his favored policies abruptly falls back on name-calling and the standard wingnut slurs against the patriotism of critics when the foundational assumptions of his world view are substantively challenged.

Lots of us think that if we're dragged into a war by an aggressive, genocidal police state, we should try to win rather than play for a tie.

We did win, Robert. The US-led UN threw Saddam's forces out of Kuwait and destroyed his capacity to threaten Kuwait or his other neighbors again in any imminent way. That's the only goal that was ever legitimate and the UN achieved that. The war was over and won.

But then the US-led UN decided to declare the war not-over until Iraq's government, besides having its external aggression reversed, also did X, Y and Z. The US-led UN furthermore gave itself a sweeping mandate for continued interference in internal Iraqi affairs under an open-ended "restore peace and stability to the area" clause. It was the Treaty of Versailles all over again.

You yourself have said you think the decision not to depose Saddam in 1991 was a bad one. Lots of us just go the next logical step: that the things the US did *instead* of deposing Saddam were even worse -- worse not just because they were bad for Iraqis but also because they were morally illegitimate. And being morally illegitimate, Saddam's refusal to comply with them cannot, therefore, be legitimate grounds for war against him.

If you're going to give a dictator his country back, you can't at the same time strive to permanently deny him the capacity to rule it the way you let other dictators do, or to build up the means to defend it against neighbors the way you let other dictators and non-dictators do, or half-assedly encourage his people to try to overthrow him, or starve those people to death in order to punish him.

Here's the key thing you won't admit: No one forced the UN to impose no-fly zones or no-go zones or economic sanctions or weapons-restriction regimes not applicable to Iraq's neighbors. Iraq certainly didn't want those things! No one "dragged" the US into continued conflict with Iraq after 1991. The US chose it. In so doing it gave itself a blank check for resumed armed conflict, cashable whenever it felt like it.

Iraq's regime opted to push for the win

You make it sound like Saddam tried to take Kuwait back. He tried to take *his own country* back. That is not an act of aggression. I don't expect you to get this; you're clearly one of those Americans who believes that only the US has the right to full sovereignty, and that everyone else enjoys it at American sufferance, contingent on not having weapons as powerful as ours and not having natural resources the world needs under your soil and not threatening our friends who also possess those resources.

I'm not a sovereignty absolutist. Saddam used his for very bad things domestically. But if you're going to take the grave step of taking it away, at the very least show some inclination to give it back to the people of the country. Both in its past occupation conduct (too many instances to list) and in the extensive list of demands it has made for extraterritorial rights in Iraq going forward, the Bush administration had made clear it has little but contempt for Iraqi sovereignty (as, indeed, it has for the "international system" which you so piously claim to defend).

There's one way in which you're correct, though: If we define "victory" as meaning permanent US military bases in Iraq against the wishes of its people, and with its government only acceding to them via extortion, bribery, and a suspect political process, then yes, I do wish for American "defeat". In my view we've already had our victories -- in 1991 and 2003 -- and two different Presidents Bush squandered them both (with no help from Clinton along the way).

Ryan:

You yourself have said you think the decision not to depose Saddam in 1991 was a bad one. Lots of us just go the next logical step: that the things the US did *instead* of deposing Saddam were even worse -- worse not just because they were bad for Iraqis but also because they were morally illegitimate.

Whether they were morally illegitimate or not (I would agree they were) it's worth pointing out the actions of the US during the nineties were certainly far more serious "ceasefire and Resolutions violation" (as Powell puts it) than anything Saddam did. And of course that's not even getting into the wholesale shredding of international law by the Bush administration. Yet of course this doesn't matter for people like Powell; just as anything was legal for Richard Nixon if the president did it, it's legal for Richard Powell if America does it. His concern about "law" arises only if it can be used as a cudgel against the Brown People Out There.

If we define "victory" as meaning permanent US military bases in Iraq against the wishes of its people, and with its government only acceding to them via extortion, bribery, and a suspect political process, then yes, I do wish for American "defeat".

I think the right way to put that would be to have American in quotes rather than defeat. It would be a real defeat for "America" in the sense that a small faction of Americans would be defeated. On the other hand, it would be a victory for the actual country of America; most American don't want permanent bases in Iraq anymore than Iraqis want them.

Andrew Sullivan responds: "Maybe it's better to think of the Bush administration as having acted in broad good faith, with a critical piece of bad faith at its center."

Well... I would be more inclined to believe this IF Bush had a pattern of being truthful and dealing with others in good faith.

However, since the established pattern is the exact opposite, I would have to conclude that Bush deliberately lied us into war with Iraq.

Here are some words from someone not nearly as stupid as robert powell or Thomas:

Instead we got assertions about a nuclear program that turned out to be based on flawed or faked evidence; we got assertions about a link to Al Qaeda that people inside the intelligence services regard as nonsense.
And the author of those words wasn't looking back with the benefit of "hindsight" as our resident moron robert powell charges of those us who were right. No, that's from an article dated: March 18, 2003. The author? One Paul Krugman. How did he get this right?


Because, unlike those who are still arguing for Bush's unprovoked assault on the Iraqis, he's not a total fucking moron.

Ryan--
Your points are well-taken and for the most part reasonably stated. Although I think we had a concrete and serious obligation to oppose Iraq's cumulative record of misbehavior in 1991, we made a crucial error by trying to take the easy way out rather than, as you say, "give it back to the people of the country". Continuing to play along with Saddam Hussein was unforgivable, and finally deciding to stop doing so has been in my mind the principal justification for the invasion. I am not as open as you seem to be to the idea that we should have just put Saddam back in the driver's seat and walked away. Rather, I think eliminating the regime and starting a process like the one currently underway would have, at the least, saved the lives of many hundreds of thousands who died as a result of the initial repression of the "rising" we instigated, and the subsequent criminal sanctions regime.

We made tragic errors in Iraq before and after both invasions. At this point I believe there is solid evidence that we are in the process of actually letting Iraq govern itself--Iraqis have been demonstrating significant independence. Initially they demanded, and got, elections rather than US-appointed exile leadership; subsequently pulled the plug on Fallujah I; voted in huge numbers on the constitution and new government, in the process dumping politicians we favored; insisted on defining their own relationship with Iran; and at this point increasingly support the government and the national security forces. I think it would be a mistake to let political bias prejudice us against what is today the most representative and legitimate government in the Arab world.

Initially they demanded, and got, elections rather than US-appointed exile leadership; subsequently pulled the plug on Fallujah I; voted in huge numbers on the constitution and new government, in the process dumping politicians we favored; insisted on defining their own relationship with Iran; and at this point increasingly support the government and the national security forces.

Millions of large-sample, good-methodology Gallup polls taken every three minutes since 1874 show that Americans won't stand for this. We're fed up with being jerked around by Arabs!

Anyone who knows Real Americans understand this country desperately wants another $3 trillion war that kills a million people. Anyone who says differently just isn't familiar with history and facts.

23456,

it's worth pointing out the actions of the US during the nineties were certainly far more serious "ceasefire and Resolutions violation" (as Powell puts it) than anything Saddam did.

I'd be interested to hear in what way that's so. It's not an angle I've given much consideration to.

I think the right way to put that would be to have American in quotes rather than defeat.

Fair enough.

Robert Powell,

Continuing to play along with Saddam Hussein was unforgivable, and finally deciding to stop doing so has been in my mind the principal justification for the invasion.

Right, I get that. Again, though, Saddam didn't want to "play" at all. It was the US that initiated the game and imposed the rules on him. Another way to "stop playing" would have been simply to lift the crippling sanctions, stop trying to deny Iraq its own airspace, let the IAEA deal with suspected weapons violations, etc.

Yes, I concede, if the US had done that, there'd probably still be a brutal dictator in charge, albeit one whose people were better fed than they'd used to the be. I don't begrudge the Iraqi people either the somewhat improved daily existence many of them now enjoy or their newly won capacity to have a say in their own political destiny. Nor do I have any "prejudice" against the Iraqi government -- it's not my place to judge it, as it has no obligations to me.

My complaint, rather, is with the US government and how it has conducted itself with respect to Iraq. (I won't go into its offenses, in the course of the Iraq War, against the American people and their freedoms, or its brazen disregard for the larger international order. Since you defend the war in terms of its benefits to Iraqis, for the moment I will stick to that framework.) Simply put, the US has manipulated outcomes in Iraq to serve its own benefit. It has given freedom with one hand while taking it away with the other. It has partially liberated Iraq's people w/r/t their daily existence at the same time as it has striven to bind the Iraqi state in a relationship of dependency.

How so? Disbanding Iraq's army, way back, for starters. Privatizing everything. Picking and backing favorites among the political factions. Declaring some groups beyond the pale of the legitimate political process and subject to armed suppression (until they agree to fight other such groups, anyway).

More recently: demanding large numbers of long-term military bases, autonomy for US forces operating in Iraq (e.g. to arrest Iraqis), legal immunity for private armies, a US right to determine whether Iranian actions constitute a threat to Iraq security justifying armed response (in effect, a veto over Iraq's Iran policy), etc. Threatening to hold frozen/protected Iraqi financial assets hostage in efforts to win these and related concessions -- effectively, taking advantage of Iraq's Chapter 7, not-fully-sovereign status to arm-twist it into preemptively surrendering much of the sovereignty it stands to win back.

In short: If Bush gets his way, the Iraqi people will have more freedom than under Saddam but Iraq will have less sovereignty. The crime, of course, is that the US had the power to confer both, but has chosen not to, preferring instead to increase its own power in the region at Iraq's expense.

The one hope is that Bush will not get his way. The American people won't accept an out-and-out US puppet regime in Iraq, and the resultant necessity of observing democratic forms in Iraq makes it harder for the US to manipulate outcomes. Also, the next President might not be inclined to do so.

I've never advocated immediate withdrawal of US forces. I'd rather see a truly sovereign Iraq government demand that, if it chooses to. But Bush is doing his best to ensure there never is a truly sovereign Iraq government. That's why Congress should long ago have taken steps to put an end to Bush's capacity to work mischief with Iraq's future. It's never too late to start, though.

Ryan:

I'd be interested to hear in what way that's so. It's not an angle I've given much consideration to.

First of all, our treatment of the UN resolutions was always in bad faith -- significantly worse than Saddam's. The resolutions said (1) the sanctions were to be lifted once Iraq disarmed, and (2) Iraq's disarmament was to be the start of the creation of a WMD-free mideast. We now know from the CIA WMD report that Saddam told his ministers several times that Iraq would give up even any ambition to restart its completely defunct WMD programs if the UN followed through and the mideast as a whole was disarmed.

Meanwhile, the US goal, from the day the Gulf War ended, was to oust Saddam whether Iraq disarmed or not. Therefore we pretended we wanted Iraq to disarm, while in reality we were determined to make sure UNSCOM never declared that they had -- because we saw the sanctions as a useful tool to create Iraqi misery and a desire to overthrow Saddam.

The problem was that Iraq was in fact WMD-free by the end of 91. So the Clinton administration (with an assist from Iraq's deceit) just drew out the process indefinitely. This inevitably led to Iraqi resistance to inspections, particularly because the US had infiltrated UNSCOM with spies attempting to organize a coup against Saddam.

Then there were the no-fly zones, which had no basis in international law. And most importantly, the various bombings of Iraq during the nineties -- in 1993 for the (apparently imaginary) attempted assassination of George H.W. Bush in Kuwait, in 1998 during Desert Fox -- all without UN Security Council approval and all in violation of international law.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant, because international law only applies to Dirty Brown People.

yeah enough already...i have watched frontline, why we fight and also mcclellan's interviews....the guy believed there were wmd's and stuff, which cheney, rumsfeld and wolfawitz was pushing. The dept of defense and the CIA were at odds, cheney never trusted the cia and this is what happened....yet the motive to create a democracy in the m,iddle east is the main objective....it is a clear statement of "it is what it is".....people on the left have their ideology and will simply harass you if you dont agree, which is how the right was before going into war.....

he didnt lie, but he he never checked the facts......

get a grip folks...it is amazing how the right keeps avoiding the mistakes, and how the left claims dishonesty and then votes democrat, who also didnt check the facts.....

the real threat to this country is the right and the left, and the real wmd is their propaganda

yeah enough already...i have watched frontline, why we fight and also mcclellan's interviews....the guy believed there were wmd's and stuff, which cheney, rumsfeld and wolfawitz was pushing. The dept of defense and the CIA were at odds, cheney never trusted the cia and this is what happened....yet the motive to create a democracy in the m,iddle east is the main objective....it is a clear statement of "it is what it is".....people on the left have their ideology and will simply harass you if you dont agree, which is how the right was before going into war.....

he didnt lie, but he he never checked the facts......

get a grip folks...it is amazing how the right keeps avoiding the mistakes, and how the left claims dishonesty and then votes democrat, who also didnt check the facts.....

the real threat to this country is the right and the left, and the real wmd is their propaganda


Comments closed June 24, 2008.

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