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Handgun Heaven

27 Jun 2008 12:41 pm

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I'm a Jewish liberal from New York City so naturally I grew up to believe in gun control. Crime is bad, gun crimes are deadly, gun enthusiasts are weird, the NRA should get off our backs. I changed my mind on the subject because I started reading Mark Kleiman, who's also very much the sort of person who'd be for gun control -- a liberal Jewish professor living in Los Angeles. But he's a professor of public policy and specializes in crime control issues and well it turns out:

There's simply no evidence that keeping guns out of the hands of those currently eligible to own them under Federal law (adults with no felony convictions, no domestic-violence misdemeanors or restraining orders, and no history of involuntary commitment for mental illness) reduces the level of criminal violence. Nor is there evidence that allowing anyone who can pass a background check and a gun-safety course to carry a concealed weapon increases the level of criminal violence. All that matters is keeping guns away from people who demonstrably shouldn't have them. Present law does that, but the gun lobby has done many things to make that law impossible to enforce.

With any luck, taking the "gun confiscation" card out of the political pack might actually reduce the fervor of the opposition the NRA can whip up to sensible measures such as requiring background checks for gun sales by private individuals (the current rule that requires them only for purchases from gun dealers), computerizing data on which dealers are selling the guns that get used in crimes, and developing and deploying technology that would allow police to identify, from a bullet or a shell casing found at a crime scene, when, to whom, and by whom the gun that produced that metal was lawfully transferred.

Maybe that optimistic take is right, or maybe that optimistic take is wrong, but either way there's no reason to be afraid of the Heller decision and Kleiman here points the way toward the compromise we should be seeking. Gun confiscation formally and credibly off the table, with a firm understanding that law-abiding competent adults have a right to buy and own guns if they so choose combined with an understanding that law enforcement agencies need serious tools with which to track and identify guns used to commit crimes.

Photo by Flickr user Robert Nelson used under a Creative Commons license

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Comments (66)

Too bad Mark is just plain wrong.

Washington, D.C.’s handgun ban is no longer valid. That’s got considerable ramifications for public safety. A careful study that compared the nine year period before the ban was enacted with the nine years following enactment, and then compared what happened in D.C. with the immediately surrounding areas in Maryland and Virginia, found that the handgun ban reduced gun-related homicides by 25% and gun-related suicides by 23 percent. Colin Loftin, Ph.D., et al., “Effects of Restrictive Licensing of Handguns of Homicide and Suicide in the District of Columbia,” 325 New Eng. J. Med. 1615 (Dec. 5, 1991). The law did not turn Washington into the Garden of Eden, and crime rates fluctuated, particularly during the last few years of the study when the use of “crack” cocaine was increasing and homicides increased dramatically. Nevertheless, the effect of the law was both immediate and sustained, and things would have been worse without it. So a dangerous city is likely to get quickly more dangerous.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/heller-discussion-board-a-toe-in-the-water/

Gun confiscation formally and credibly off the table, with a firm understanding that law-abiding competent adults have a right to buy and own guns if they so choose combined with an understanding that law enforcement agencies need serious tools with which to track and identify guns used to commit crimes.

Amen.

Now, NRA kooks, how about those "serious tools?"

Gun confiscation formally and credibly off the table

Except it isn't. Gun confiscation is one Obama-appointed Supreme Court Justice from being back on the table.

Gun confiscation is off the table once we have incorporation, (Gun confiscation has been mostly a state and local offense.) and assuming one of the majority don't croak in the next 8 years, and get replaced by Saul Cornell. I don't believe a mere Supreme court ruling is going to cause the anti-gun movement to back down in the slightest.

Give us a decade or so, with no reversals, and we might relax a bit. This ruling just marks a change in the battle, not an end to it.

Crime is bad, gun crimes are deadly, gun enthusiasts are weird, the NRA should get off our backs. I changed my mind on the subject...

So, now you believe gun crimes aren't deadly, gun enthusiasts are normal, and the NRA should stay on our backs?

This isn't the conclusion I draw from reading Kleiman. My conclusion is that moderate gun control that has been implemented in the U.S. has no effect one way or another. If gun control increased crime, then you could say its bad. If it had no effect, what's so bad about it?

Obviously, there's no question that draconian gun control would have a huge beneficial impact on crime. This is politically impossible, however, so its a moot point. I agree with Kleiman that one possible good result of this ruling is the NRA getting off our backs so that reasonable measures he describes could be taken.

Gun confiscation is one Obama-appointed Supreme Court Justice from being back on the table.

Al: We don't even need another liberal judge. We can "confiscate" some kinds of guns (machine guns, say) now, post-Heller, right? We just cannot confiscate them in an overly broad fashion.

"If gun control increased crime, then you could say its bad. If it had no effect, what's so bad about it?"

That's precisely backwards. If gun control reduced crime, then you could say it's good. If it has no effect either way, then it's bad, because it would be wrong to take people's guns away for no good reason. It's wrong to ban any item or behavior for no good reason.

"If gun control increased crime, then you could say its bad. If it had no effect, what's so bad about it?"

It's not bad to impose on people for no good purpose?

There is nothing in Heller that will prevent individual states from having most of their safety regulations or their Assault Weapons Bans. There might be some question about open-carry laws that will have to be adjudicated.

Now, NRA kooks, how about those "serious tools?"
If you want gun owners to trust you not to confiscate their guns, you should probably stop calling them kooks, whatever you actually think of them. You might also try reining in your various leaders such as Mayor Dayley, who fully intend to fight this to the bitter end. Then, and only then, will you find gun owners willing to work toward a more rational, effective control regime. But right now, speaking as an NRA life member and someone who would, by the standards of those outside of the gun culture, qualify as a gun nut, but who at the same time is willing to accept a fair degree of restrictions in principle, we do not trust you any further than we can throw you, and oppose you at every turn because we believe that regardless of what you say when you're running for election in Pennsylvania, you hold us in contempt and wish to crush us. We find it very difficult to put any stock in the pronouncements of politicians and activists who say that they favor only "reasonable, common sense" gun laws, but in practice don't find any restriction, even the ones in Washington DC, NYC, or even England too onerous as to be "unreasonable."

I've read that the study in question did not control for the significant population decline in DC during the study period, masking a rise in the per-capita homicide rate. Can't remember my source, though, so I might as well be making it up for all the credibility it has.

There is nothing in Heller that will prevent individual states from having most of their safety regulations or their Assault Weapons Bans. There might be some question about open-carry laws that will have to be adjudicated.

Maybe you've heard of it, but "A Well Regulated Militia" by William Weir is the best discussion of the issue I have seen. He comes down for background checks on any transfers and a national license before purchase (I think).

The "strife of interests" part is what's always missing from these analyses. Gun manufacturers REALLY DO want bad guys to be able to buy guns. It's not some big misunderstanding. Guns purchased with the intent of being resold illegally make up a sizable minority of legal gun purchases in the US. Criminals are, wonder of wonders, a big target demographic for gun sales.

The NRA exists to protect the interests of gun manufacturers. That's its only purpose. It's not going to one day say "OH! You only wanted to prevent ILLEGAL gun sales? Why didn't you say so?" There's no big misunderstanding on this issue. Just one side with a lot of money and another side with a lot of dead people.

I personally subscribe to the same basic ideology you seem to be saying you subscribe to (that gun bans per se are not a useful means of preventing crime) but let's not kid ourselves that there is some great constituency hungry for compromise on this issue.

The vast majority of Americans want it to be hard for criminals to buy guns. The gun industry wants it to be easy, so it uses its PR arm, the NRA, to scare gun owners into unreasonable positions on common-sense gun legislation and enforcement.

That's the state of play and it's not going to be ameliorated by "taking confiscation off the table."

APS

Given that Wayne LaPierre and the rest of the Middle Aged White Men Hoarding Guns To Protect Them From Negroes Association (NRABLA for short) is headed off to Chicago to challenge its gun laws, I think we know the way this one's heading.

I've read that the Loftin study did not control for the significant population decline in DC during the study period, masking a rise in the per-capita homicide rate. Can't remember my source, though, so I might as well be making it up for all the credibility it has.

No way the gun whackos are backing off. They advocated total access to round that can pierce body armor. They have made statements that say the core of the Second Amendment is to allow individuals to protect themselves from the government, which would essentially mean that individuals should be able to own grenades, RPGs, bazookas, or anything else the military has. They scream about gun registration because they don't want to take responsibility for the firearms they own.

While I think an outright ban is overkill, don't expect the right wingnutosphere to back off in any way, shape, or form.

"There is nothing in Heller that will prevent individual states from having most of their safety regulations or their Assault Weapons Bans."

To the extent those regulations and bans actually have any rational basis, at any rate, rather than simply being the result of anti-gun animus.

Which means most of them are at risk. There's quite a bit of state to state diversity in firearms regulations, which means that you can prove that there's no rational basis for thinking the regulations in the harsher states actually advance any legitimate state purpose, since the states with 'lax' regulation get by just fine without them.

There are gun regulations that can stand strict scrutiny, but not most of what goes under the name of "gun control".

It's not bad to impose on people for no good purpose?

Its nothing to get too worked up over. The way some of these gun nuts carry on, you'd think the government was seizing their first-born child.

TheOtherCyrus,

I think it would be helpful to note that there are not really two disparate camps here. MY has supported the idea of gun ownership in the past- even opposing the DC handgun ban. I don't think he is a closet confiscationist, and neither are most of the people who support reasonable restrictions on gun ownership and a corresponding commercial regulatory state.

While I appreciate your annoyance with the confiscationist movement, please recognize that there are plenty of people out there who truly desire reasonable solutions. Those people may sympathize more with the Daley's than the NRA's kooks of the world, but that is just choosing between two extremes, neither of whose policy preferences are close to their own. They may just regard the Daley world end-state as preferable to the most extreme NRA position.

And NRA people who are even in principle opposed to any restrictions on gun ownership deserve to be called kooks. That's really a silly position and a lot of the arguments attached to it are similarly silly.

I wonder if it would be possible to gain some ground on revamping our asinine drug policy if we were to frame it as a gun control issue. Just as Prohibition was great for illicit tommy gun sales, our draconian drug laws make handguns a pretty solid commodity on the black market, where dealers have a lucrative product to protect and not much to lose by stacking a weapons crime on top of a drug conviction. Get rid of that market, and gun use doesn't seem as bad to most people, since it's less often associated with murderous crack dealers. So if we tell Joe Woodsman and his peers that a vote for softer drug laws is a vote for keeping their vast collections of Confederate pistols safe from Uncle Sam, maybe they'll be a little closer to coming around.

There is nothing in Heller that will prevent individual states from having most of their safety regulations or their Assault Weapons Bans. There might be some question about open-carry laws that will have to be adjudicated.
That's one interpretation. There are other plausible interpretations of the ruling that would invalidate "assault weapons" bans and the "sporting purposes" clause, though machine guns, etc., would appear to be off the table. Really, it's up to whatever a judge wants to do on a particular day, so I find all the tea leaf reading going on rather dubious. If the question starts with "Can a Federal judge...?" the answer is "Yes," and that goes double for the Supreme Court. I don't like it, but that's how it is.

The problem is, as long as you've got a steady flow of guns to legal owners, you're also going to have a steady, healthy black market for the illegal owners.

So to stop one, you're pretty much got to stop the other, and you have to do it at the federal level. There's no empirical evidence to support that because America has never really tried to do that.

"While I appreciate your annoyance with the confiscationist movement, please recognize that there are plenty of people out there who truly desire reasonable solutions."

Quite true. The problem is that, to the extent that they take their notion of what's "reasonable" FROM the people who are actually part of the "confiscationist" movement, it's a distinction without a difference. They still end up fighting for the same ends, even if they're not clear about what they're doing.

What leads you to believe the NRA will support reasonable gun control measures?

"Gun confiscation is one Obama-appointed Supreme Court Justice from being back on the table."

Al,

Maybe or maybe not. Remember that the 4 dissenting justices in the Heller case (the 4 who wanted to uphold the D.C gun ban) conisted of 2 Clinton appointees, a Ford appointee, and a Bush I appointee, while the Supreme Court majority consisted of 2 Reagan appointees, 2 Bush II appointees, and a Bush I appointee. Seeing how the Bush I appointees split on the Heller decision, even if Obama fully intends for his appointees to vote to overturn the Heller decision, there is no guarantee that his appointee(s) actually will.

Brett said... There's quite a bit of state to state diversity in firearms regulations, which means that you can prove that there's no rational basis for thinking the regulations in the harsher states actually advance any legitimate state purpose, since the states with 'lax' regulation get by just fine without them.

Wrong. You are assuming that every state has the exact same demographics as every other state. You simply can not make any meaningful comparison between New Jersey (highly industrialized) and Wyoming. Heck, you can't even compare Buffalo, NY to New York City.

Don't we need a more nuanced understanding of "gun crime" than some aggregate number? It seems like a career criminal using a gun to hold up a liquor store (whether or not he kills the clerk) is a different problem than a jealous husband with no criminal record flying off the handle and shooting his wife, right? Given that so many murders happen between people who know each other, even family members, it seems like this is a legitimate distinction.

I'm not that invested in gun control laws, but part of the reason I've been in favor to an extent is that it seems like you don't have to be a career criminal to do bad shit with a gun, intentionally or unintentionally.

On the meta-question of what comes next, it is indeed silly to think this will make the NRA itself wake up and see reason, nor should that be the goal. The question is whether the decision lessens the ability of the NRA to demagogue people into supporting their more rigid positions. If so, this could give rise to some sort of working coalition on the issue.

"What leads you to believe the NRA will support reasonable gun control measures?"

LOL! The NRA has this public reputation for being uncompromising, and they're happy to have it so, because it makes them more popular with gun owners, but anybody who's active in the pro-gun movement will tell you how open they are to compromise.

The National Instant Check System? That's their baby. They just a while back put their weight behind a law to increase access to state records for it, too, much to the annoyance of 2nd amendment purists who hate having to crawl to the government for permission to buy a gun.

Why can't I buy a new machine gun? The 1986 FOPA the NRA helped get passed banned sales of new machine guns.

The NRA is fine with "reasonable" gun regulation, more comfortable with it than many activists like. The reason they won't sign on to most gun control is that it ISN'T "reasonable.

The NRA is actually considered by many in the pro-gun community to be a bunch of accomodationists. Go to gun bulletin boards right now and see how many threads you find castigating the NRA for its initially lukewarm response to the Heller litigation. I write this to defend, somewhat, the organization's reasonableness. I say somewhat, because I appreciate that to many who read this blog, perhaps a majority, civilian firearms ownership is prima facie unreasonable and its advocates moreso. Now, no doubt there are members of the NRA who oppose any and all restrictions on firearms and firearms ownership, but that is not the stance of organization as a whole or the majority of its members, despite the common progressive caricature.

NRA is also not a lobby for the (rather small, usually financially beleaguered) gun industry. There is no "big guns" as there is a "big pharma" or "big oil" flush with industry cash. Most firms in the industry amount to an accounting error at ExxonMobil or Pfizer. NRA, and the various pro-gun organizations really are what they claim to be, that is large, basically grassroots lobbies subsisting on donations from people like me.

I doubt that Heller will open up new vistas for effective gun law enforcement. That argument had forerunners in those who hoped that welfare reform in 1996 would clear the way for effective anti-poverty measures now that the unpopular program direct money to the poor was off the table. A win is a win, and the NRA won.

Seeing how the Bush I appointees split on the Heller decision, even if Obama fully intends for his appointees to vote to overturn the Heller decision, there is no guarantee that his appointee(s) actually will.

I don't think you are reading the history correctly - at least since Truman. The history shows that Democrats never screw up and put conservatives on the Supreme Court; Democrat-appointed Justices are always liberal. Republicans, on the other hand, often screw up and put liberals on the Supreme Court.

Accordingly, the history shows that Obama will reliably put a liberal on the Supreme Court.

Accordingly, the history shows that Obama will reliably put a liberal on the Supreme Court.

This is completely wrong. Obama will reliably put at least 2 or 3 liberals on the court.

Al, this is just insane. The Democratic nominee has made a big deal, throughout the primary season, about how he supports an individual right under the 2nd amendment (with sensible regulation). And now there's a Supreme Court decision affirming that same individual right. For liberals, the equivalent would be a Republican winning his nomination after loudly proclaiming during the primaries that Roe and Casey correctly identified a constitutional right that needs to be protected, and only proposed enacting sensible legislation to make abortions more safe.

When the presidential nominees of both parties agree with the Supreme Court about something, and you like the consensus, it really is time to move on. You've won. Go home.

found that the handgun ban reduced gun-related homicides by 25% and gun-related suicides by 23 percent

In addition to the problems with this study noted above, I notice that this sentence doesn't say that homicides or suicides decreased. That would seem to be the more relevant number.

Y'know, TheOtherCyrus, since your total argument so far is to vehemently assert that your position is "reasonable" and "moderate," one can pretty much apply your words to any group one chooses--often to humorous effect.

I've been having a good chuckle mentally substituting "NAMBLA" for "NRA" and "pedophile" for "gun" in all of your comments.

I don't care what cards the NRA/gun-nut segment plays, I hope Obama puts 8 years worth of anti-gun judges in the judiciary and we really move toward a national handgun ban. You want a rife or shotgun? Fine. You have the right to bear arms, but banning handguns is reasonable.

Memories are long. I say bury 'em.

"You won. Go home."

That's essentially right.

And that describes the Republican agenda as a whole. Meaning the bulk of their agenda that paints an urban vs. rural divide along with their economic prescriptions of lower taxes and less regulation as universal remedies - don't apply anymore.

Their economic ideas are barren because they already lowered taxes and deregulated about as much as can be.

Their urban vs. rural divide is weakened because the economy and infrastructure has hurt their rural base such that those folks are looking for something that may actual help them.

The Republican agenda doesn't resonate in a "get out the vote" fashion any longer - because they won.

And so they don't have a rallying cry - except for Guns and God - (in the form of Anti-Abortion).

Guns has just been taken off the table as an urgent, get out the vote issue.

And so I look to more God talk to be the only effective means the GOP has to bring their folks out. And, truthfully, I don't think the GOP wants Roe v. Wade overturned... it would remove their most effective wedge.

FWIW: The NRA is to gun rights what the HRC is to gay rights. Both have reputations as being radical organizations committed to absolutist views on those issues. In reality, though, these organizations are primarily hacks concerned more with their own political clout than they are with actually advancing the agenda of the people they purport to represent. As a result, the groups responsible for the major victories on gun and gay rights actually had to achieve those victories without any real support from the NRA and HRC, respectively.

FWIW: The NRA is to gun rights what the HRC is to gay rights. Both have reputations as being radical organizations committed to absolutist views on those issues. In reality, though, these organizations are primarily hacks concerned more with their own political clout than they are with actually advancing the agenda of the people they purport to represent. As a result, the groups responsible for the major victories on gun and gay rights actually had to achieve those victories without any real support from the NRA and HRC, respectively.

The history shows that Democrats never screw up and put conservatives on the Supreme Court;

Since Truman? Is that inclusive or exclusive? If it's inclusive, then you've got Harold Burton, Fred Vinson, and Tom Clark as not particularly liberal justices (Sherman Minton was the only reliably liberal Truman appointee).

Going forward from Truman, only three Democratic presidents have had the chance to appoint a total of 6 justices. Goldberg, Fortas, and Marshall were reliably liberal. Wizzer White proved, more or less, to be a conservative. Clinton's two appointees have been fairly moderate, especially Breyer - they are less liberal than Stevens, who was right in the middle of the Burger Court.

I don't think you are reading the history correctly - at least since Truman. The history shows that Democrats never screw up and put conservatives on the Supreme Court

Byron White?

Hi:

I have friends in law enforcement, own some guns myself, and have sat through many hours of testimony from ballistics experts in capital homicide trials.

The idea that it is possible to document distinct markings produced by a gun on casings and bullets and then use those records to ID a gun used in a crime is, well, it shows that the formulator of the idea doesn't really understand how the current state of the art of ballistics analysis works.

When you have both the gun and a bullet (and a casing if you're that lucky) it is sometimes possible to link the bullet and gun with a high level of certainty, like 85-95%. Other times the bullet is shattered and no link can be made, or the bullet's marking are indistinct and your degree of confidence is more like 30 or 40%, not too useful.

But using a database of images, or even possessing sample bullets from every gun sold just won't allow you to trace a bullet in a victim to the owner of the gun that fired it. Sorry, just can't be done.

The markings on bullets and casings are just not that different from gun to gun, or from ammo lot to lot. In most cases the lab experts are very lucky just to tie evidence from rounds fired to a gun when in possession of the gun, the unfired ammunition, and the expended rounds.

And using automated image recognition to search through tens of millions of stored data points is something we are years away from, if we ever really get there.

So we'll just have to depend on investigators asking intrusive questions, for the most part.

Nice reading your site, keep up the good work. When you want to discuss firearms, touch base with some experts before posting the articles.

Thanks,
JR

Sothpaw says:
"The Democratic nominee has made a big deal, throughout the primary season, about how he supports an individual right under the 2nd amendment (with sensible regulation)."

Two obvious flaws here.

1. Obama is lying for potical gain.

2. That's a canyon of a parenthetical. The statists like Breyer will colloborate with the three other anti-Heller votes, plus Obama's first, and find each and every restriction perfectly legitimate. Obama himself (peace be upon him) belives the Chicago ban is reasonable. If the media ever breaks from its fascination with how diverse he is, maybe they'll actually pin him down on specifics rather than swoon at his hopiness. If Obama comes out and says the Chicago ban is the type of regulation that is too broad and he won't appoint a justice who endorses such view, then the issue may rest. Until then, no way that this issue goes away

Even then, does anyone here actually believe anything this guy says on the campaign trail? He's shameless. But he smokes and is suave and hip and diverse, I'll grant you that.

Nor is there evidence that allowing anyone who can pass a background check and a gun-safety course to carry a concealed weapon increases the level of criminal violence. All that matters is keeping guns away from people who demonstrably shouldn't have them.

Except for this: the larger the pool of gun-owning individuals (law abiding though they may be), the larger the pool of guns you have available to be stolen and used illicitly.

Here in Canada, where we have much more stringent handgun control, gun right advocates point out that 99% of gun crimes are committed with illegally owned handguns. Whether or not this statistic is true is irrelevant: these illegal handguns originate from two sources - they are either illegally imported from the US, or stolen from lawful owners in Canada in break-ins. So our much lower rate of gun crime is in large part due to minimizing the available *legal* handguns.

Since Truman? Is that inclusive or exclusive?

Exclusive. And Whizzer White was not a conservative - he was a moderate, in the Potter Stewart, Lewis Powell, Sandra Day O'Connor mold. Breyer and Ginsburg are reliable liberal votes. So no screw ups by Democratic Presidents. OTOH, Republicans have nominated Earl Warren, William Brennan, Harry Blackmun, John Paul Stevens, and David Souter.

I think the core driver for gun control (pr)opponents is the NIMBY effect: the vast number of NRA members are in rural or suburban areas with a low rate of gun crime; the vast number of gun controllers are looking at an urban problem.

One sees gun crime as NIMBY, and don't see why they should suffer for someone else's problem. The other sees gun crime as a problem that can be solved only when guns are NIM(urban)BY.

This inevitably leads to demographic pissing and moaning, given who tends to live in which environment. Years ago, someone posted a gun crime abstract on USENET which purported to show that US gun violence among Caucasians was at Canadian/European levels, while the rates for AA's and Latinos was through the roof.

Unfortunately, a half hour of search hasn't been enough to dig anything like this chart back up, so I can't vouch for the data. However, even though it's hearsay, I still think it's important to mention, because...

Whether this data is true or not, the 2nd Amendment-is-personal types *think* it's true, which adds to the NIMBY issue above.

If it *is* true, this might suggest that a solid sales tracking system would pay nearly the same crime-rate dividends as outright confiscation, and be considerably more politically feasible than trying to mop up 250+ million firearms.

From what I recall of a Chicago PD pilot program to track where the criminals' guns were coming from, it seemed that getting serious about nailing the suburban dealers for breaking existing State and Federal trafficking laws was the low hanging fruit.

By affirming both an individual right to bear arms and the ability of the government to regulate the ownership and use of weapons, the Court has embarked upon is a decades-long project of legislation from the bench. Now it is for the Justices hammer out how much regulation is too much, just as they have spent the last thirty years haggling over parental notification requirements, mandatory waiting periods, and the like in the abortion context. As if the Constitution has anything to say about it!

I look forward to learning which sorts of regulations impose "undue burdens" on the individual right to bear arms. Background checks? Carrying restrictions? Assault weapons bans? Excuse me while I consult the Constitution.

Oh well, if you can't beat them, join them!

http://eatatjims.blogspot.com/2008/06/what-kind-of-handgun-should-i-buy.html

By affirming both an individual right to bear arms and the ability of the government to regulate the ownership and use of weapons, the Court has embarked upon is a decades-long project of legislation from the bench. Now it is for the Justices hammer out how much regulation is too much, just as they have spent the last thirty years haggling over parental notification requirements, mandatory waiting periods, and the like in the abortion context. As if the Constitution has anything to say about it!

I look forward to learning which sorts of regulations impose "undue burdens" on the individual right to bear arms. Background checks? Carrying restrictions? Assault weapons bans? Excuse me while I consult the Constitution.

Oh well, if you can't beat them, join them!

http://eatatjims.blogspot.com/2008/06/what-kind-of-handgun-should-i-buy.html

I think this is the first post of Matt's that I've read here that is completely correct from the first sentence to the last.

See? I don't hate Matt. When he's right, he's right.

I don't even hate Josh Marshall. When he's right, he's right.

"Except for this: the larger the pool of gun-owning individuals (law abiding though they may be), the larger the pool of guns you have available to be stolen and used illicitly."

Ask the next question. So now you ban handguns on the theory that they won't be available.

Now you have two more problems:

1) HOW do you ban handguns? Oh, sure, banning NEW sales by legal suppliers is easy. How do you mop up the remaining hundred million or two weapons already extant? Do you do what Ross Perot suggested - hire the military to go door to door and confiscate them? Yeah, that'll work. What happens is that millions of weapons go "underground" - where they will not be tracked and will become more available, not less, to criminals.

An example: Years ago the Feds decided no more Class III (automatic weapons) firearms licenses for individuals. So the law established a one year grace period where automatic weapons that were currently unlicensed could be brought forward and licensed without penalty. At the time the law was passed, there were around 100,000 registered automatic weapons in the US.

During the grace period, ANOTHER 100,000 unregistered weapons were registered.

This means, of course, that there is at least ANOTHER 100,000 unregistered automatic weapons that will NEVER be registered.

2) How do you deal with the inevitable black market? Criminals will continue to get weapons, and citizens who would use legal weapons for self-defense will not. Advantage: criminals.

Meanwhile, the non-professional criminal homicides continue to occur with baseball bats and the suicides use drugs instead of bullets to kill themselves with. Professional criminal homicides will continue to be done with professional criminal guns that were never seized.

But the woman who would have used her legal firearm to defend herself from a rapist dies.

It happens. I remember a story about a woman who was grabbed in a supermarket parking lot, thrown into a car trunk, and driven out into the countryside. We'll never know what the criminal wanted to do because when he popped the trunk, she put six .38 rounds from her "lady's revolver" into his chest.

No gun banner has EVER answered these two questions - because there are no answers.

Banning guns might or might not have a significant impact on the homicide rate in a particular area for a particular time. The overall cost/benefit of extending such a ban to the entire country, however, is not so clear cut.

And extending that concept to banning all guns is simply physically and economically impossible, if for no other reason that the void will immediately be filled by black marketeers from all other countries with access to weapons.

If you can't ban drugs, you can't ban guns. It's that simple.

Richard's agreeing with Matt, I'm agreeing with Richard.... strange day.

Dude, let's say Obama really does have no integrity. What makes you think he's going to pick this issue to make a stand on? The politics are against it; he doesn't gain anything at all, since anyone who's in favor of more gun control is 100% in his corner anyway. Even with your nutty premises, it makes no sense.

Unbelievable. He believes it because it comes from a fellow Jew? Conservatives have been saying essentially the same thing for years. Now for the link between pornography, masturbation and crime...
www.dickmanagement.com

On the issue of whether Obama will be able to appoint a reliable liberal: Remember that he will almost certainly be submitting the nominee to a Democratically controlled Senate. The reason Bush I had to nominate Souter as a stealth candidate was that he had to get him through a Democratically controlled Senate. I think Obama will be able to get, say, Elena Kagan through a Democratic senate and I don't think there's any doubt about how she will vote on politically controversial cases.

I'm neither Jewish nor from New York or L.A. I grew up in the Midwest, hunting with my father. We never had handguns, but that doesn't mean I haven't had rather too much experience with them.

In 1981 after working late, I took a bus home in San Francisco. Three men and five kids boarded. The men had two handguns and a sawed-off shotgun, which they used to hold us up while the kids collected our valuables. I can never forget the frozen fear of looking down the barrel of a handgun. No one, thankfully, was hurt in this robbery.

In the early 1980s, a relative in his 70s bought a handgun after his house was burgled. A year or two later, after a painful episode of shingles on the brain that lasted a few months, he used it once -- for suicide.

Last year, my nephew and friends were on spring break in Denver to see a concert. Afterwards they wandered into the wrong neighborhood in search of a working ticket machine at a Metro stop. Two gang members attacked, shooting my nephew and several friends. Shot in the face, my nephew nearly died. He carries the bullet in his jaw. Imagine too the terrible anguish (and huge medical expenses) this caused his parents and siblings.

This spring, a disgruntled man walked into a Kirkwood, Missouri, city council meeting and shot the mayor, a city official, and others, before he himself was shot and killed. My parents knew the major and official, with whom they went to church. They and the entire city were traumatized.

Handguns are everywhere in this country. Each one has no possible use but to shoot people. Each one is a tragedy waiting to happen. Handguns are a menace to us all. I have walked the streets of nations where handguns are nearly unknown -- in Canada, Europe, and even India -- with greater sense of security than in my own country. Why should my right to feel secure not outweigh a right to own deadly weapons, a right for the first time now established out of an ambiguously worded amendment from the eighteenth century? Why is my right to security not clearly implied by the Constitution's stated purposes of establishing justice and promoting the general welfare? Why should those noble purposes not shape interpretation of the Second Amendment to leave us safer and more secure in our homes, our workplaces, and our streets?

We desperately need a Supreme Court that shows greater wisdom and understanding than this one.

I'm neither Jewish nor from New York or L.A. I grew up in the Midwest, hunting with my father. We never had handguns, but that doesn't mean I haven't had rather too much experience with them.

In 1981 after working late, I took a bus home in San Francisco. Three men and five kids boarded. The men had two handguns and a sawed-off shotgun, which they used to hold us up while the kids collected our valuables. I can never forget the frozen fear of looking down the barrel of a handgun. No one, thankfully, was hurt in this robbery.

In the early 1980s, a relative in his 70s bought a handgun after his house was burgled. A year or two later, after a painful episode of shingles on the brain that lasted a few months, he used it once -- for suicide.

Last year, my nephew and friends were on spring break in Denver to see a concert. Afterwards they wandered into the wrong neighborhood in search of a working ticket machine at a Metro stop. Two gang members attacked, shooting my nephew and several friends. Shot in the face, my nephew nearly died. He carries the bullet in his jaw. Imagine too the terrible anguish (and huge medical expenses) this caused his parents and siblings.

This spring, a disgruntled man walked into a Kirkwood, Missouri, city council meeting and shot the mayor, a city official, and others, before he himself was shot and killed. My parents knew the major and official, with whom they went to church. They and the entire city were traumatized.

Handguns are everywhere in this country. Each one has no possible use but to shoot people. Each one is a tragedy waiting to happen. Handguns are a menace to us all. I have walked the streets of nations where handguns are nearly unknown -- in Canada, Europe, and even India -- with greater sense of security than in my own country. Why should my right to feel secure not outweigh a right to own deadly weapons, a right for the first time now established out of an ambiguously worded amendment from the eighteenth century? Why is my right to security not clearly implied by the Constitution's stated purposes of establishing justice and promoting the general welfare? Why should those noble purposes not shape interpretation of the Second Amendment to leave us safer and more secure in our homes, our workplaces, and our streets?

We desperately need a Supreme Court that shows greater wisdom and understanding than this one.

RSH, in response to my post, says:

Ask the next question. So now you ban handguns on the theory that they won't be available.

But there is no next question, because you have misunderstood my point; nowhere in my post do I advocate banning handguns. As you point out, there is simply no viable (political) way of making it happen (in addition to the constitutional impediments), so there's little point in advocating it.

My point is was in response to Matt's (and Kleiman's) suggestion that putting guns in the hands of law abiding people is consequence free. It isn't.

I don't pretend to have a lot of answers to the US gun violence issue. But it is a fallacy to think that cutting off the legal supply of handguns to criminals, while putting more handguns in the hands of law abiding folk will make things all better.

I appreciate that comparing the US to Canada is an apples to oranges situation. There are no constitutional guarantees to firearms here, and thus a much less ingrained gun culture (at least with respect to handguns - long guns is a little bit different). We have pretty low rates of gun crime, and a large part of that is that we don't have a lot of handguns. The handguns that *are* used in crimes often originate from the homes of people who had them lawfully, but lost them through theft and burglaries. Which brings me back to my response to Matt's implication, which I believe to be erroneous, that increasing the supply of handguns to law abiding folk is without consequence.

Can someone explain why so many 2nd Amendment supporters claim an individual right to own guns, then immediately launch into a preemptive defense that of course they don't mean ex-cons, domestic abusers and the mentally ill when they say "individual"? From Scalia's opinion to Kleiman's quote above, they're all doing it. I don't have to pass a background check to exercise free speech. If I am certifiably batshit insane, I can plop my soapbox in the middle of the town square and proclaim that the world is going to end next Tuesday. (In fact, if I was, I probably would). Why is it that the individual right to own guns has all these restrictions applied to it, restrictions not outlined in the Constitution, and not applied to any other Amendments? (Yes I know there are limits to free speech, inciting a riot, obscenity, etc., but there's a difference between having limits on your exercising of a right and not being able to exercise that right at all.)

I am not a kook, by my opinion is that the 2nd Amendment, if read in a manner consistent with the interpretation of the rest of the Bill of Rights, does protect an individual right to own guns. (Of course, this wouldn't be much of an issue if the Founders had been able to write a simple declarative sentence.) I do not believe it refers to the right of select individuals to own guns. If the placard-wielding kooks outside the courthouse had any intellectual integrity, they'd be honest enough to admit that their fighting for the right to arm ex-cons, wife beaters and escapees from the loony bin.

Chris Rock had a routine where he said that the solution to gun violence was to sell bullets for $5,000 each. Maybe he was on to something. There's nothing in the Constitution about that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFcVwDw4YLE

"Al, this is just insane. The Democratic nominee has made a big deal, throughout the primary season, about how he supports an individual right under the 2nd amendment (with sensible regulation)"

What's insane is taking Obama's protests about how he really supports the 2nd amendment seriously, when,

a) He's got an extensive record of being extremely anti-gun.

b) He always immediately qualifies those protests to such an extent as to render them meaningless.

He's for a 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms, EXCEPT that it shouldn't stop every community that wants to from enacting laws every bit as onerous as DC's were until yesterday. What kind of civil right is it, that can be abolished by any local government that wants to?

The problem here is a common one smart liberals have: He assumes the people who disagree with him aren't just (on average) less smart than him, but are instead uniformly stupid. He thinks he's putting one over on them, and all he's doing is pissing them off by being so obvious about thinking they're idiots.

"Chris Rock had a routine where he said that the solution to gun violence was to sell bullets for $5,000 each. Maybe he was on to something. There's nothing in the Constitution about that..."

Why, you're right, in precisely the same sense that there's nothing in the Constitution prohibiting Congress from levying a $5,000 an ounce tax on ink. After all, it's freedom of the press, doesn't mention ink at all...

KdNicewanger , don't be silly. If the 2nd Amendment was to be read that way, then the 1st Amendment would be too. Are you saying that "no law" really means that any speech in any place and in any manner should be legal?

Yeah, I know -- it was just empty rhetoric.

Brett, are you sure Obama's pissing that many people off? It wasn't just the media folks who drank the Kool-Aid on that speech he made back when the Wright thing first blew up. I think Obama's as good a panderer as Bill Clinton, maybe even better.

M Stoll: No, we don't need a Supreme Court with better wisdom and judgement. It isn't their job to decide whether the Second Amendment is a good idea. Their job is to decide what it means. Unfortunately, what it means is that the FFs preferred an armed citizenry to a disarmed citizenry.

Don't like it? Well, there's the amendment process. Get to work.

Having said that, I'm not a big fan of Scalia's opinion. When he talks about personal defense from criminals being relevant to the Amendment, it's pretty obvious that he's just making this stuff up wholesale. His "originalism" has always been something of a facade, but usually he fakes better than this.

Given that Wayne LaPierre and the rest of the Middle Aged White Men Hoarding Guns To Protect Them From Negroes Association (NRABLA for short) is headed off to Chicago to challenge its gun laws, I think we know the way this one's heading.

Posted by pseudonymous in nc | June 27, 2008 1:10 PM


Pseudonymous, this is actually kind of funny to me. Take a look back at history and tell me when laws started to be put in place restricting posession and concealed carry of handguns and you will see that it was right after the Civil War. Why is that significant? The people in power, whites, were trying to prevent blacks from having guns. The 14th ammendment said that you couldn't single out any one group in a law, so laws were put on the books to prevent everyone, but then individuals were granted permission by the sherriff. How many blacks do you think got permission from white sherriffs?

For some reason blacks tend to protect the same laws that were designed to take away their rights. That makes as much sense to me as the Hispanics trying to make sure their children aren't forced to learn English in our schools. It is obvious to me that law abiding citizens of any color benefit from having more rights, not less, just like it is obvious that you will have a better chance of being successful in any country if you at least speak their language.

Whizzer White = Sandra Day O'Connor?


Sure, that makes sense. Of course, O’Connor was Pro-Roe and White was one of the actual dissenters in 1973…but never mind that. Pesky facts always get in the way.

We do not need more but less government control in our lives. Maybe, if we took care of our own (people) and worried less about what some other country or person is doing we would be better off. Just because a person owns a hand gun doesn't make him a criminal any more that some one running their mouths makes them one.

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Please just leave me alone, as windbags and know-it-alls bore me, and I like the smell of burnt gunpower.

Semper Fidelis

I've been an Atlantic Monthly reader for years. However, the recent endorsement of Obama and the constant hate from the left regarding gun ownership has forced me to rejoin the NRA. When any regulation of our lives is placed under the banner of "for the children" yet savage child rapists are not allowed to be executed then the cold fact comes to mind is - generally - the left in America can't be trusted.

I have little hope for the future of America and know that ultimately the left and right will never get along.


Comments closed July 11, 2008.