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Relativism and Time

01 Jun 2008 02:28 pm

Will Wilkinson rails against relativistic defense of Thomas Jefferson's slaveholding that posit that it was somehow okay to be a slaveholder in the late eighteenth century because a lot of other people were doing it too:

Now it seems to me that you actually do want to incorporate a slightly relativistic approach to evaluating people. If you compare a dictator like Francisco Franco to a dictator like Charles V, I think it's got to be relevant that in Franco's time there was a viable and well-known alternative to dictatorship. As soon as Franco passed from the scene, a morally responsible leader like King Juan Carlos was able to shift the country to democracy rather than simply try to rule as a good dictator. But to blame the sixteenth century heir to a multinational empire for not embracing fundamental liberal political reforms seems silly as such reforms just weren't part of the consciousness of the time -- it wasn't within the realm of the possible.

Somewhat similarly, when you look back at the record of Abraham Lincoln he said and believed a lot of stuff that would count as unforgivably racist were you to say or believe it today. But he lived in the middle of the nineteenth century and his views were clearly progressive ones relative to the times in which he lived as reflected in the fact that his policies were a boon to African-Americans even though the underlying sentiments didn't always reach the standards of contemporary egalitarianism.

But this, to me, is really where Jefferson starts to look terrible. The idea that chattel slavery was morally wrong was in wide circulation in Jefferson's time. Outside of the southern states, it was conventional wisdom that this was a bad institution. And Jefferson was not only aware of the view that slavery was bad, he appears to have found the evidence convincing. But he was too selfish, personally, to make the sacrifices that would have been involved in freeing his slaves and he was unwilling to take any meaningful political risks on behalf of the anti-slavery cause.

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Comments (113)

I tend to think Thomas Jefferson truly believed that the Union would collapse if the worthiness of slavery came to dominate American political discourse. And I'm certainly no staunch defender of the man or the president (particularly his second term). I also think his views, upon reflection in Virginia near the end of his life, had evolved from his 1801-09 term. Yet, above all else, Jefferson possessed a lifelong weakness for understanding matters in concrete terms (with few exceptions: e.g., opposition to the Federalist Party, post-1798) as opposed to the abstract. He was a man of ideas, but, in part due to his mediocre rhetorical abilities, relied heavily upon his surrogates, especially James Madison, to enact his agenda.

Jefferson also wished to remain popular among the masses, whatever he thought of their collective or individual intellect, and thus he chose to avoid the subject. Most importantly, the anti-slavery movement barely registered during his presidency and for a long time after, save for discussions about returning slaves to Africa, etc. Besides, he considered the eviction of Federalist judges from the bench something of a higher priority.

Lastly, it is worthy to note that Jefferson died in 1826, only six years after the Missouri Compromise, and still five years before Nathaniel Turner ushered in his "fires of jubilee," and even longer before the US Congress imposed a gag order on slavery. It remains an open question if he would have adopted the "slavery as a positive good" ideology that came to describe increasingly paranoid southern politicians in the 1840s, rather than the "necessary evil" of earlier times.

Jefferson was not only intellectually opposed to the idea of slavery, he attempted several times to put his ideas into practice in law:

In 1769, as a member of the House of Burgesses, Jefferson proposed for that body to emancipate slaves in Virginia, but he was unsuccessful.

In his first draft of the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson condemned the British crown for sponsoring the importation of slavery to the colonies, charging that the crown "has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere." However, this language was dropped from the Declaration at the request of delegates from South Carolina and Georgia.

In 1778, the legislature passed a bill he proposed to ban further importation of slaves into Virginia; although this did not bring complete emancipation, in his words, it "stopped the increase of the evil by importation, leaving to future efforts its final eradication."

In 1784, Jefferson's draft of what became the Northwest Ordinance stipulated that "there shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude" in any of the new states admitted to the Union from the Northwest Territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

None of which is to suggest that he was some sort of morally transcendent character free of the views of so many of his time -- in general he didn't think Africans / African Americans were of equal intellect to whites.

More directly relevant, I don't think the two speakers outlined what the intellectual consequences would be -- i.e., what exactly would happen should one decide that Jefferson's ownership of slaves in the past was more okay or less okay than a lot of other wrong things?

Maybe the argument is really over whether or not it is either a good idea or even realistically possible to have members of contemporary society express a ritualistic (i.e., simplified yet commonly shared) admiration for historical figures who in reality were quite flawed even by the standards of their times?

And if not, how can we express admiration for the historical contributions of people without trying to make those people into caricatures themselves?

Making matters worse, Jefferson actually became more pro-slavery as he aged, even knowing abolitionism became a more prevailing viewpoint the older he got as well.

If you want to make a relativist excuse for a slaveholding individual, George Washington is a much better example -- he stopped selling slaves in 1778 after he no longer wanted to break up families, and in his will he freed his slaves (upon the death of his wife).

Washington and Jefferson seemed to go in opposite directions on slavery, with Washington becoming increasingly opposed to slavery and Jefferson becoming increasingly in favor of it.

Lincoln did have viewpoints that today are unquestionably racist, including opposition to interracial marriage. Of course, he supported universal suffrage, black officeholders, and initiated emancipation. His support of women's suffrage makes him all the more progressive relative to his time period. In the late 19th century, his legacy was not as highly regarded, with many viewing him as having been an overly radical president.

That's all well and good, M. E. G., but the issue is Jefferson's personal owning of slaves, not whether his public work was directed towards the question. He could see it as something unresolvable and hurtful to the union to discuss at the time, but still have freed his slaves. Instead he seems to have recognized, at least somewhat, the wretchedness of it, but still participated in it personally. He didn't have to rail against slavery in public in order to free his slaves.

Also, regarding Washington, I've always found it somewhat pathetic when someone wants to repent by changing something at the end of their life or even in their will. Washington wasn't willing to forgo the use of slaves for himself or his wife, but was for everyone else? If he truly had the courage of his convictions, he would have freed them while alive. It's as pathetic as Marcus Aurelias wanting to restore Rome to a Republic at the beginning of the movie Gladiator, but only upon his death.

I'm reminded of how Albert Schweitzer remarked that one of the most disappointing things to him about contemporary discourse on morality was that it was an "ethic 'at rest.'"

I suppose the idea is that in addition to looking at the value of someone's morally-laden actions, you should also look at the time-derivative of that value.

In the late 19th century, his legacy was not as highly regarded, with many viewing him as having been an overly radical president.

This is not at all my understanding of the post-Reconstruction consensus on Lincoln. My sense (and those with better command of this issue can certainly correct me) is that the dominant view was that Lincoln, who had during his presidency opposed the projects of radical Republicans like Charles Sumner and Thaddeus Stevens, would have pursued a moderate course on Reconstruction. "With malice towards none, with charity towards all," and so forth, Lincoln would have moved quickly to bring the defeated southern states back into the union without retribution to former rebels. Basically, that he would have implemented a lenient Reconstruction policy along the lines of the one Andrew Johnson adopted, except without the horrible political skills that led Johnson to be superseded by the Radicals in congress as director of Reconstruction policy.

Basically, that Lincoln would have brought about the post-Reconstruction Jim Crow consensus without the traums of Radical Reconstruction. See Birth of a Nation for an extreme version of this view, for instance.

I found it interesting to learn a bit about some of the 'personal sacrifice' Jefferson would have been making. Since he was perpetually in debt, he wasn't completely at liberty to just free his slaves... not that he couldn't and shouldn't have gotten around that (maybe stop perpetually building), but it is an interesting factor to consider along with all the political and moral calculations.

Many of Jefferson's slaves were also his family.

Intellectuals in England ridiculed many of our Founding Fathers over their hypocrisy regarding slavery. Jefferson, Washington, etc were terrible hypocrites even by the standards of their own day. It isn't a charge that's been cooked up by modern revisionist histories.

But if we relativize the standards we hold people to, that will drastically reduce the number of people to whom I can feel morally superior.

It used to take great imagination to conceive of the races being equal. Hell, in the 1800s the Irish were considered an inferior race. There was no genetics, no cultural anthropology. You really had to have huge heart to see people were really all the same, because looking around it was hard to see. We shouldn't underestimate how hard it was back then.

I grew up in the late 70s/early 80s in an all-white town. It was really easy to be antiracist. My favorite TV shows all starred wisecracking black kids. We only listened to golden-age jazz in the house. So I was a liberal before I had actually ever met a black person. Now I live in the big city (Seattle) and the only black folks I ever interact with (excluding East Africans) are panhandlers and door-to-door scam artists. It's grim. If I only relied on my own experience, if I had no knowledge of the wider world, I'd probably be a racist.

Matt's dead on though. Jefferson had no excuse.

It's always been welcomed to criticize the moral hypocrisy of some rival nation's leaders.

British intellectuals and public figures got all het up when it seemed like some other nation would subject their exports to bans or tariffs, but much of their own textile industry was based upon de-industrializing the previously better and more efficient Indian textile industry such that it would only produce cotton as a raw material export crop -- cotton to lessen its dependence on the slavery-subsidized Big Cotton of the U.S., so that they could then criticize the immoral USA for the slavery which helped subsidize their industry. And so on and so forth.

Like today's Republicans screaming about the ills of Communism and totalitarianism, just waiting in eager lines to make money off of U.S. corporations who send great parts of their labor-intensive production to China, so as to take advantage of that totalitarian labor control they otherwise decry.

You are my favourite little man

Seriously, people. You can't very well debate this topic - at least on a moral basis - without considering that Sally Hemings, the mother of six of TJ's children, was the half-sister to Thomas Jefferson's wife Martha Wayles. Sally Hemings (as property) fell to Martha Wayles Jefferson from her father's estate and thus became the property of Thomas Jefferson. Many of Sally Hemings' siblings (also half-siblings to Martha) were also part of the Wayles estate. Martha Wayles Jefferson died in 1782, many years before Thomas Jefferson fathered children with Sally Hemings, Martha's half-sister.

I don't know if I quite agree with holding Jefferson's moral insight on slavery against him -- I'd think worse of if he'd not had it. I prefer people with moral ability who aren't able or willing to devote their life to acting on all of it to those without it.

Yglesias post would be more compelling with a list of the sacrafices made in his own life. Donating half his income to help mitigate the almost unimaginable suffering in Africa, for instance. Future generations might believe only a depraved soul would living such a fine life while others starved.

How easy to feel superior to Jefferson, holding him defective vs. a moral standard almost nobody meets. Mother Teresa can write such things. Perhaps the rest of us instead should concentrate on eliminating our own moral failings, rather than writing yet another moral judgement on Jefferson.

It would be interesting to see how Jefferson would reply to the Pharisees commenting here.

I just don't see the point of passing moral judgment on people who are long dead. What's the point?

On the other hand, we can make purely factual comments about people in the past, and should accept them even if doing so makes us uncomfortable. Was Abraham Lincoln a racist? Absolutely, as were the vast majority of white people at the time. One can acknowledge this without denying the good work he did as President.

Re doug

Excuse me, the DNA evidence relative to the ancestry of descendants of Sally Hemings only proves that a Jefferson fathered at least one of her children, not necessarily Thomas Jefferson. It could have been any relative who shared his Y chromosome.

It would be interesting to see how Jefferson would reply to the Pharisees commenting here.

Jefferson might make a defense of his actions, which isn't the same thing as saying he would regret the debate.

It was against the law to free your slaves without making substantial material provision for them. (The purpose wasn't humanitarian; it was to prevent formation of a class of formerly enslaved desperados.) Jefferson definitely opposed slavery (see 1st draft of the Declaration of Independence), but he cdn't afford to free his slaves financially--rather like a current green zealot who discovers that the basement tile contains asbestos, but blanches at the cost of by-the-book EPA-approved removal.

"Also, regarding Washington, I've always found it somewhat pathetic when someone wants to repent by changing something at the end of their life or even in their will."

It's actually worse than that - when he staying in Philadelphia (then the U.S. capitol), he carefully planned how to exploit a loophole in the 1780 Gradual Abolition Act, rotating slaves in an out of PA before they hit the 6-months residency mark that would allow them to apply for free status.

"and in case it shall be found that any of my Slaves may, or any of them shall attempt their freedom at the expiration of six months, it is my wish and desire that you should send the whole, or such part of them as Mrs. Washington may not chuse [sic] to keep, home — for although I do not think they would be benefitted by the change, yet the idea of freedom might be too great a temptation for them to resist. At any rate it might, if they conceived they had a right to it, make them insolent in a State of Slavery."

See here.

Now, there were certain practical matters - most of the fellow humans he was holding in a state of bondage were considered not his property, but rather "owned by the estate of Mrs. Washington's first husband, and were held in trust for her four grandchildren" - but still, disgusting.

Far and away the best commentary on this topic is Frederick Douglass's "Oration on the Memory of Abraham Lincoln" (1876), which he gave at the dedication of the Freedmen's Monument In Lincoln Park. Douglass understood that people must be judged by the society they live in, but he also understood that even so, they must be judged. It's a beautiful and profound speech, well worth reading in full, http://www.teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint=39

Here are just a few sentences:

Abraham Lincoln was not, in the fullest sense of the word, either our man or our model. In his interests, in his associations, in his habits of thought, and in his prejudices, he was a white man... Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined...

Few great public men have ever been the victims of fiercer denunciation than Abraham Lincoln was during his administration... He was assailed by Abolitionists; he was assailed by slave-holders; he was assailed by the men who were for peace at any price; he was assailed by those who were for a more vigorous prosecution of the war; he was assailed for not making the war an abolition war; and he was bitterly assailed for making the war an abolition war.

But now behold the change: the judgment of the present hour is, that taking him for all in all, measuring the tremendous magnitude of the work before him, considering the necessary means to ends, and surveying the end from the beginning, infinite wisdom has seldom sent any man into the world better fitted for his mission than Abraham Lincoln.


SLC - true, but Thomas Jefferson was present at Monticello at the time of conception of the Hemings children, and, of course, Sally was in Paris with Thomas when Madison Hemings was conceived. Thomas Jefferson's son, Madison Hemings revealed the family history to an Ohio newspaper in 1873, and also revealed that Thomas Jefferson had promised to free his children upon his death, which, by his will, he did. There are also contemporaneous accounts of the physical resemblance of the Hemings children to Thomas Jefferson. In other words, the already mountainous volume of circumstantial evidence that TJ fathered these children was corroborated by the DNA evidence. There is no other Jefferson DNA carrier who had the same proximity and opportunity. So give up on that old denial. The foremost expert on this subject (surprising that Matthew is ill-informed on this) is Annette Gordon-Reed, a black Harvard Law grad and law professor at New York Law School. Her book Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, An American Controversy, which was written before the DNA testing, is superb. Jefferson and Hemings had a 38-year affair that produced six children. The discussion of Jefferson's morality with regard to slavery can't be had without considering this fact.

Denouncing Jefferson seems to include an element of self-congratulation. As in "If only I had inherited a Virginia plantation in 1770, what moral sacrifices I would have made."

Very flattering. However, for most of us our personal history gives little basis for such a belief.

John, perhaps your understanding is correct, but I'm just going off the lecture for my Civil War/Reconstruction class. My take is that Lincoln did want a softer reconstruction, and it wasn't so much the soft reconstruction that made Jim Crow and Klan violence possible (Lincoln was assassinated before Klan violence became a problem), but the repugnant deal to resolve the 1876 election that simultaneously ended reconstruction and made Rutherford B. Hayes president even knowing he clearly had lost to Samuel Tilden. Lincoln, on the other hand, was a strong supporter of civil rights, and despite having never been an ardent abolitionist, upon deciding upon emancipation, he executed the policy with fullness in heart despite being massively criticized for it. When it comes to reconstruction, I think Lincoln would have been much, much softer than Thaddeus Stevens, probably more in the mold of Charles Hays, a pro-Union slaveholding member of the plantation elite who became a rather progressive Republican Congressman from Alabama at the end of the war (the "scalawag" to end all "scalawags," he campaigned heavily in black neighborhoods), who wanted to invest heavily in the economic development of the south and move the region toward a post-slavery economy. His efforts, of course, failed, as the radical reconstructions wanted to be tough on the south, and white southerners had no interest in supporting a politician who wanted to remake the south in the image of the north.

My understanding --which may be wrong because I haven't checked the sources in depth -- is that Jefferson intended to free his slaves but was unable to do so because of a large debt he had incurred. He had co-signed a large loan to a friend which the friend was unable to repay when his business went ..er..south. I believe his family also lost Monticello when Jefferson died.

Which doesn't excuse Jefferson, of course.

Doug's story about Sally Hemmings has been strongly supported --but not conclusively proven -- by DNA analysis.

Which also indicates Jefferson may have been our first Jewish President (well, maybe not according to the Nuremberg Laws.) A Sephardic Jew, actually.

See http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/28/us/28jefferson.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

The position Jefferson died with seemed to be that slavery as practiced by the Greek and Roman ancients was, all considered, a relatively humane and functional way of accommodating drastic and inevitable power differentials; while the practice of slavery that developed in the Americas exhibited few of these virtues and more vices besides. And I think he's probably right.

Also, as someone in the "Jefferson was a hypocrite who should be criticized for owning slaves" camp, we should maintain a fair amount of respect for the past, and relativism is perfectly applicable in many instances. For example, we all realize (or hopefully realize) that astrology as practiced today is dumb, and that astrology, really, has always been wrong. But we shouldn't think that people in Medieval Europe were dumb because they believed astrological explanations for the Black Death -- after all, astrology as practiced then required incredible knowledge and practice of mathematics even knowing its premises turned out to be untrue. They simply lacked our current knowledge of a universe that was not centered around our planet. So, while Jefferson was clearly a hypocrite whose views devolved considerably over time, it's still important to have respect for the past -- not to excuse all actions, but to understand that if we had lived then, our attitudes and psychology would be vastly different, and hundreds of years in the future, people might look back and think, "wow, 21st century Americans were dumb."

And then they'll say, "until they got universal health care."

In the case of Washington, they weren't his slaves, they were his wife's. Washington married into money.

For what its worth, if these guys (Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Monroe) had freed their slaves or had no slaves, we would never have heard of them. In the slave states, the wealthy class, the political class, and the slaveholding class were all one and the same. If you didn't own slaves in the South, you just weren't going to have any chance at a political career.

So if Washington had not married Martha Custis, someone else would have and stepped into his place. This is also why the only slaveholding society to abolish slavery on its own was Brazil, very late, facing international isolation, and with no real attempt to provide for for the newly freed slaves. In the Caribbean slavery was abolished by the European countries running the colonies, in the US by the northern free states during a war with the southern slave states.

This doesn't so much excuse the slaveholders, as to highlight that plantation slavery is a horrible system that degrades or compromises everyone that is a part of it. The people with the real morale dilemna were the politicians from the northern free states, who had to decide how much to compromise with their southern counterparts and their "peculiar institution".

Many of us find the case for non-violence all the way up to and including pacifism to be convincing, yet we continue to finance a fairly pro-violence government. This probably means something.

There's no inconsistency in the opposing slavery and also opposing freeing slaves. Jefferson's view was that freeing the slaves would lead to some kind of a race war or at least racial conflict, since the ex-slaves would want revenge. Jefferson described the dilemma thus: "But as it is, we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other."

So much of our ambivalence toward questions like, "How do we judge Thomas Jefferson? How do we judge Charles V?" is unnecessary - it comes from a conflation of evaluating the moral quality of the act and judging the moral quality of the person.

We can say with some degree of certainty that slaveholding and ruling as an absolute monarch are wrong, and wrong for all times and places. We say that with the benefit of several extra centuries of moral discourse to draw upon, but that doesn't in and of itself change the fact that those things are wrong.

When we judge individuals, though, there's an "ought implies can" problem to deal with, and that's where our clearer moral vantage point becomes relevant. Charles V had very little liberal tradition to inform his decision to crack down on Protestants, etc. But Thomas Jefferson was clear on the arguments against slavery. Whatever reservations he sometimes expressed, he was fundamentally in agreement with them, and all the same he chose to live exorbitantly and pile up huge debts instead of free his slaves. So we can judge him personally pretty harshly on that score.

And to respond to Fabius, there isn't any element of self-congratulation in saying this. If I say that Charles V should have been more tolerant toward religious minorities, I don't necessarily imply that I would have done anything different had I sat on the Habsburg throne in the 16th century. And when Jefferson criticized slave drivers, that made him a hypocrite, but it didn't make his criticism wrong.

I didn't watch the video yet but let me offer an analogy.
I believe you yourself has said something to the effect of 'Yes, it is courageous for individuals to try to live a completely carbon neutral or carbon negative lifestyle but the answer is in institutional change.'
Among other energy using activities if you didn't fly on planes to attend conferences or represent your book or other writings and simply lived off the land and occasionally blogged (the amount depending upon the surplus you had built up with your personal wind mill or solar collector) then other folks probably wouldn't read you that often or take your opinions with much weight. You wouldn't be a possible opinion changer, you'd be some ranting hippie with occasional blog posts spitting at the wind.
An institution rarely changes until people within it, with built up credibility with other members, begin to work to change their opinions. Ghandi didn't have an effect because he was poor, he had an effect because he was an elite who chose poverty and tapped into the vast majority of his country's people because they also lived in poverty.
Jefferson could have sold all his slaves but his ability to change the minds of the power brokers of the time would have garnered a footnote in history at most.

correction: "Jefferson could have FREED all his slaves..." not SOLD.

Matthew Struhar - in terms of the view of Lincoln I presented, that was not my view, but my understanding of the late 19th/early 20th century view of Lincoln and Reconstruction.

Basically, in that school, Johnson's presidential reconstruction was a good idea badly executed. Congressional Reconstruction was a disaster which tried to give political power to freed slaves, who were not worthy of it and created corrupt and tyrannical governments in the southern states with the help of northern carpetbaggers. Sometimes added to this, by the more racist, is that southern whites understandably turned to violence, and thus to the KKK, in order to resist these tyrannical governments, upheld only by the sword of the Union army. As a result, the Reconstruction governments were disastrous failures, and the best thing to do was to abandon the whole experiment, and allow southern whites to regain control of their states and resume political power. This, of course, is what Johnson wanted in the first place, so wouldn't it have been great if that result (the natural result which takes into account the natural inferiority of the Black race, etc. etc.) could have been achieved without the pain and violence of radical reconstruction and the reactions to it?

Thus, when looking at Lincoln, this view would have it that if Lincoln hadn't been assassinated, he would have been more successful at implementing a lenient reconstruction policy than Johnson, and thus obviating the rise of radical reconstruction. The result might not be Jim Crow exactly, but would certainly involve white Democrats continuing to run the south, as ended up happening anyway.

Basically, the old view of Reconstruction was that Lincoln was good because he was a moderate who would have opposed those awful radical Republicans, and Radical Reconstruction, not its abandonment, was the bad thing about the aftermath of the Civil War. In the aftermath of the civil rights movement, most of this has been turned on its head, but that's how Lincoln was viewed up to the 50s or so.

On the plus side, Jefferson never carpet bombed Indo-China or Iraq, nor occupy them either. But clearly time-traveling Thomas Jefferson has a few moral paradoxes to clean up.

Re doug

As I stated, the DNA evidence only conclusively showed that the descendants of one of Sally Hemings' children were also descendants of a Jefferson, not necessarily Thomas Jefferson. This was proven by comparing the Y chromosome of all the known living male descendants of Sally Hemings with the Y chromosome of a living descendant of a relative of Thomas Jefferson (since Jefferson had no known male children, at least by his wife). It is my recollection that the known Jefferson descendant in question was descended from a 1st cousin of Thomas Jefferson whose father was a brother of Thomas Jeffersons' father. Because the male line from the cousin to the Jefferson descendant was known to be unbroken, it can be inferred that it was a match to Thomas Jeffersons' Y chromosome. Of course, it was also a match to the cousins' Y chromosome so he could also have been the father of the Sally Hemings son in question.

Your understanding of history on this is incorrect. It would have been quite exceptional for anyone outside of the Society of Friends to have had their conscience troubled by the issue of slavery in the late 18th century.

I am a Quaker and not long ago read a biography of John Woolman. It seems that Quakers, who are well-known for their abolition work, were slave owners pretty universally, up until the time of the revolution. In about 1750, Woolman, while working as a shipping clerk, had the insight that buying and selling humans was deeply wrong. He quit his job and spent the rest of his life as a minister, which for Quakers, does not mean that he had a congregation, but that he went from meeting to meeting to convince other Friends to give up their slaves. It took forty years before he convinced enough Quakers to oppose slavery and organize a petition to the government. For Friends it takes more than a majority, but not every member for Yearly Meetings to take a stand, which they did finally in 1790. And Quakers would have been an outlier in their time.

Anti-slavery ideas were no more mainstream at that time than most of modern Quaker ideas are even today.

There is still slavery, even in the United States, but it is overlooked. In point of fact, there are more slaves today worldwide, in absolute numbers, than there were in 1860, as you can verify by visiting the website freetheslaves.net, an organization run by a modern day Woolman named Kevin Bales. (I believe he won an Emmy for a documentary a year or so ago.)

If you are going to object to Jefferson's not freeing his slave, an act which would have halved his net worth, you should trouble yourself to know the conditions of the enslaved in the twenty-first century.

P.S. I think the world of you, Matt, and read everything you write.

Fair enough, John, and I think we basically agree. I apologize for misunderstanding your point.

In any case, I think it is better to pretend that morality is entirely independent of the times we live in. Morals are just eternal principles that have no relation to culture and history. Let's all just keep repeating that to ourselves so we don't hyperventilate.

Anyway, if torture can sometimes be right, how can slavery not be? What if you had a ticking-time slave that was going to nuke L.A.? And the only way to save millions of people was to enslave blonde women? Or something. Think about it.

Regarding Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers, I've always found much truth in what King George had to say about them: "How strange that we seem to hear the loudest cries for liberty from the drivers of Negroes."

Regarding Jefferson's affair with Sally Hemings, it is perhaps worth noting that under the laws of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, it was illegal for a man to have intercourse with his slaves, and the penalty for doing so was castration. In regard to the treatment of slaves, the medievals appear to have been a bit more civilized than Americans of Jefferson's time, including Jefferson himself. Slavery was commonly practiced in many countries throughout history, but that which characterized the colonial and postcolonial New World was a particularly virulent and inhuman form of the institution.

It also appears that Spain- with one of the lowest fertility rate in the world, empty churches, and the looming spectre of creeping Islamization- has lost quite a bit since Juan Carlos took the throne. They are richer and freer than they were some decades ago, of course, but at the cost of losing the sense of meaning, purpose and national pride that they had in the past. I am no fan of Franco, by any means, and my symnpathies in the civil war are (with much qualification) with the Republic. But it looks as though the wonders of modernity, capitalism and 'liberal democracy' have not done too well by Spain either. The Zapatero regime is managing to accomplish what neither the Moors, the French, the Anarchists or the Communists could accomplish in thirteen centuries of trying.

The fundamental principles of the American Revolution were deeply radical. It's hardly surprising that it took awhile for people to follow the logic of universal rights through to it's obvious conclusions. Jefferson was an enlightened man in numerous ways, with a deep moral blind spot on slavery. This is something that he shared with an entire culture - and recall that women got the right to vote 100 years after Jefferson died. It is cheap and easy to claim moral standard that no one alive in 1800 would be able to satisfy. Is there some point to doing so?

Jefferson successfully challenged the divine right of kings, championed a democratic alternative, and remains a radical inspiration. His Jefferson Bible (where he took his glue pot and scissors and removed all sections of the Bible contrary to known scientific fact, including the resurrection) can still be bought today. If you read what he wrote there are clear elements of prejudice intermixed with ideas that are still radical today.

Re: Anti-slavery ideas were no more mainstream at that time than most of modern Quaker ideas are even today.

In the US, maybe, but anti-slavery sentiment caught on rapdily in Europe. Bishop Wilberforce was not a Quaker after all. And the French Jacobins passed a law banning slavery in French territory, though it was fairly effectless and later rescinded afetr the Jacobins fell.

Re: There is still slavery, even in the United States, but it is overlooked.

I wouldn't say that American slavery is "overlooked". When cases are brought to light it is usually vigorously prosecuted.

Hector: Zapatero has managed to follow his predecessors in guiding Spain into a modern, European Union democracy and economy -- and the problem that you would see given too many non-European immigrants (you only see the Mooozlim ones, but miss the Romanian and Latin American new-comers) only arises because of Spain's success.

Spain under Franco was a place people fled. Just like the American South was up until the last few decades, and that too reversed and yeah, a lot of Southerners complain about how it used to be so great here before, you know, all that happened.

But with the European Union and the modernization of the economy (a lot of rebuilding of Franco's decrepit and faked and crumbling / falling infrastructure), yeah, lots of folk cultures are being lost. But now it's a place people want to go to, rather than away from.

But then, you see Mooozlims filching up everything on every corner because you want to share your crazy arguments about how the Crusades were awesome since presumably Jesus must be some Muslim-fearing snit like you.

SLC - you've twice asserted that the y-DNA establishes probability rather than certainty, but no one ever said otherwise. If you read my previous comment again, you will see that I cited other corroborating evidence that helps make the case. I know of no historian or individual, other than some old-Guard, racist, Jefferson family deniers, who still contend that Jefferson did not father children with Sally Hemings. Can you cite one prominent historian who contends it is not so? (Please show your work.)

El Cid,

Apartheid South Africa was a place people immigrated to, as well (mostly from countries like Zambia, Malawi, Mozambique, etc.). That doesn't make the creepy Hitleresque abomination that was the Apartheid State any better. People emigrate to America from all over the world. That doesn't make me any more a fan of the American Way of Life. No doubt Rome and Babylon, in their day, had lots of immigration as well.

Marc, adding to your point, it is also important to consider that the Founders included abolitionists such as Ben Franklin and John Adams, the latter going to the brink (and failing) to outlaw slavery in the Declaration. All of them are complicated men who did something extraordinary.

Jefferson was, however, a hypocrite, and his views on race and slavery became even more deranged over time. Given his admiration and association with these men, he clearly could have known better. What takes away from his character, however, does not take away from his incredible accomplishments.

As a side note, does anyone else think it's silly that our two major parties celebrate their institutional leadership roots and not their current ideological roots? Jefferson and Jackson supported limited government and states' rights, whereas Lincoln supported a dynamic federal government and human rights. But we have the Jefferson-Jackson Dinner for the Democrats and the Lincoln Dinner for the Republicans just because those names were early leaders (well, Jefferson technically wasn't) of the major parties.

Hector: Your flawless logic of comparing modern democratic EU Spain to apartheid South Africa overwhelms me. Once again your brilliant arguments based on theocratic muckety-muck overwhelms all kweschiners.

Er, El Cid, I'm not sure why you think I should be impressed that Spain is 'democratic', or in the EU, since I am neither a particularly big fan of liberal democracy nor the EU.

I have no doubt Hector is a big fan of putting Hector in charge.

Hector: I don't care that you're impressed or not with liberal democracy or the EU. Those mentions were for the other, sane readers. Plus, Jesus agrees with me, over you, he just told me so.

Hector, I'd listen to El Cid on this one.*

(Interestingly, the historical figure - whose name Wikipedia gives as combining Spanish El ('the') and a word derived from Arabic sayyid ('lord' or ''sir') - fought both for Christian and Muslim rulers. And really, anybody who can win a battle after they're dead . . . ok, so that's just a legend, but still . . .)

Anyway, I'm not surprised that nationalistic xenophobic pro-natalists would feel the tug - even if, to their very partial credit, they kinda fight it - of fascist dictatorships . . .

* and yes, this does sound like a sentence from one of those fantasy novels where great warriors from throughout earth's history clash in the afterlife/a reconstructed earth/etc . . .

Jefferson didn't have enough dough to be a Jeffersonian; he was either too lazy (he could've written a memoir like Grant) or just spent too much. That's why he kept the slaves.

Hey, opponents of liberal democracy provide some entertainment, but where's our resident racist? You'd think he'd be all over this thread . . . small blessings, I guess . . .

>>since I am neither a particularly big fan of liberal democracy nor the EU.

Just curious: what are you a fan of then? Theocratic fascist dictatorships? Absolute monarchy? Timocracy?

To be fair & honest, I'm not a "fan" of liberal democracy either, however it's defined.

Rather, I feel like I can reasonably outline some strengths and weaknesses that such forms of limited democratic participations in governance tend towards.

It's the kind of thing one is rational about, not a "fan" or not.

GO EAGLES!!!

Making matters worse, Jefferson actually became more pro-slavery as he aged, even knowing abolitionism became a more prevailing viewpoint the older he got as well.

If you read Notes From The State of Virginia, Jefferson predicted that because of the black fecklessness, inability to think past immediate animal gratifications - there would exist the incapacity of blacks to self-govern well, so every black-run nation or city would be a shithole - unless white, Jewish, Mohammedean, Asians, even PreColumbian minorities were ready and empowered to block such blacks from their folly.

200 years later, Jeffersons vision still is evidently -unfortunately correct - every black-run nation, city - has proven to be a sorry shithole - unless other ethnic groups stand ready to steer them from their incapacity to govern well. (Washington DC, Nairobi in the 60s, etc.)


>>GO EAGLES!!!

Is that a "Hudsucker Proxy" reference?

Chris Ford, aren't you late for a Klan rally? And is it difficult to type in that white sheet?

Re Chris Ford's comment "If you read Notes From The State of Virginia, Jefferson predicted that because of the black fecklessness, inability to think past immediate animal gratifications - there would exist the incapacity of blacks to self-govern well, so every black-run nation or city would be a shithole - unless white, Jewish, Mohammedean, Asians, even PreColumbian minorities were ready and empowered to block such blacks from their folly.

200 years later, Jeffersons vision still is evidently -unfortunately correct - every black-run nation, city - has proven to be a sorry shithole -..."
-----------------

Would Matthew archive Chris's post for future reference?

I just remembered that Chris was an Army officer around 17 years ago.

Which means that President Obama can call Chris back into the service and send Chris off to the African "black shithole" of his choice.

Mogadishu, Somalia sounds like a good place for Chris to pick up the White Man's Burden and exert the leadership associated with his superior genetic endowment. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_Down_%28book%29

I'm sure Chris can whip this "black shithole" into shape in no time. All on his own.

We're quite ready to make allowances for cultures that are geographically distant - we should be just as tolerant of cultures that are distant in time. Do you judge your actions according to the mores of two centuries from now? Then be slow to judge Jefferson, lest some future pundit excoriate you for driving an SUV while the less fortunate starve.

Military officers are subject to recall for life.

Come to think of it, that little fucking weasel Lindsey Graham of South Carolina is in the Reserve. (The lawyer corps --JAG -- of course. Nothing that would put him near combat. In the ORDINARY course of things.)

But President Obama can call Graham back into service and ship Graham to worst shithole in Iraq. With Graham all on his own and with no armor on his Humvee.

Hmmm. I wonder if there's any way I could get a job in White House transition planning.

Military officers are subject to recall for life.

Come to think of it, that little fucking weasel Lindsey Graham of South Carolina is in the Reserve. (The lawyer corps --JAG -- of course. Nothing that would put him near combat. In the ORDINARY course of things.)

But President Obama can call Graham back into service and ship Graham to worst shithole in Iraq. With Graham all on his own and with no armor on his Humvee.

Hmmm. I wonder if there's any way I could get a job in White House transition planning.

1) I wonder if Chris Ford could explain to us how the darkies infiltrated Wall Street and fucked up our financial system so badly that the Federal Reserve had to bail things out with an emergency $200 Billion of the taxpayers money?

2) And how did the crafty little buggers manage to cause the Savings and Loan crisis around the end of Ronald Reagan's term?? (You know -- the goatfuck that cost the taxpayers around $400 billion to fix , I believe.)

Low animal cunning, no doubt.

3) And everyone knows it was that mulatto Colin Powell that dragged us into the Iraq disaster, in spite of protestations from white gentlemen like Dick Cheney and George Bush.

It also appears that Spain- with one of the lowest fertility rate in the world, empty churches, and the looming spectre of creeping Islamization- has lost quite a bit since Juan Carlos took the throne. They are richer and freer than they were some decades ago, of course, but at the cost of losing the sense of meaning, purpose and national pride that they had in the past.

I'm sure the rich, free people who actually live in Spain weep over this everyday.

February 27, 1827. St. Augustine, Fla.

A fortnite [ago] I attended meeting of the Bible Society. The Treasurer of this institution is [also] Marshall of the district & by a somewhat unfortunate arrangement had appointed a special meeting of the Society & a Slave Auction at the same time & place, one being in the Government house & the other in the adjoining yard. One ear therefore heard the glad tidings of great joy whilst the other was regaled with “Going gentleman, Going!” And almost without changing our position we might aid in sending the scriptures into Africa or bid for “four children without the mother who had been kidnapped therefrom.”

“Selected Writings of Ralph Waldo Emerson,” William Gilman (ed.) P.42 (Signet, 1965) (journal entry.)

Re: Just curious: what are you a fan of then?

Oh, I don't know. Peasant communes. Christian Socialism. Syndicalist cooperatives. A generally corporatist model of society. The rule of Great Men. Republics of the Saints. Government by the virtuous, in the Platonic sense. Perhaps something along the lines of General Velasco's short lived regime in Peru (1968-1975).

In a sentence, I believe that the purpose of government is to encourage and cultivate virtue in its citizens, and to secure their well-being not just in a material sense (by providing for their food, shelter, medicine, employment and other material needs) but also in a spiritual and moral sense.

Re: Just curious: what are you a fan of then?

Oh, I don't know. Peasant communes. Christian Socialism. Syndicalist cooperatives. A generally corporatist model of society. The rule of Great Men. Republics of the Saints. Government by the virtuous, in the Platonic sense. Perhaps something along the lines of General Velasco's short lived regime in Peru (1968-1975).

In a sentence, I believe that the purpose of government is to encourage and cultivate virtue in its citizens, and to secure their well-being not just in a material sense (by providing for their food, shelter, medicine, employment and other material needs) but also in a spiritual and moral sense.

Re Don Williams on Wall Street and bank shenanigans.

Mr. Ford will just take a page out of the Don Williams playbook and blame those events on the Jews, just like Mr. Williams likes to blame the Iraq fiasco on Hiam Saban and Israel.

Jefferson inherited both slaves and debt, and considered the debt the most pressing moral burden to get rid of (although he never did because he was a terrible businessman). Obviously that's fucked up thinking, but he did have competing moral values at play.

Re doug

Mr. doug is missing the point relative to my comments about the DNA test. The fact of the matter is that left wing commentators have pointed to that test as the smoking gun which proves beyond any doubt the joint paternity of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings of at least one of her male children. The fact is that it does nothing of the sort. It merely proves that the child in question was fathered by a Jefferson, not necessarily Thomas Jefferson. For a definitive test, a sample of Thomas Jeffersons' DNA would be required. It is my understanding that his DNA might be recoverable from some of his hairs that have been preserved. I would propose, if this is true, that such a test be performed on those hair roots which would settle the matter to better then 99% certainty.

The "peculiar institution" of slavery dates back to Graeco-Roman times and - although submerged during the Middle Ages - revived during the Renaissance - about a century before the Age of Exploration made contact with both potential slaves Africa and potential plantations in the Americas.

To research this, you need only Google "Renaissance" and "slavery." But to illustrate my point I cite the following from one site.

While we like to think of the Italian Renaissance as representing the best of Western culture, several less stellar practices were introduced. The rapidlly expanding mercantile culture produced class divisions far more destructive than those of earlier periods and the legal status of women declined seriously in the process. The Italian Renaissance was also the period that Europeans rediscovered slavery. The market in human slave labor in southern Europe began as early as the 12th century. Initially the Spaniards were the key trafficers in human life, but as the Italian city-states grew, their demand for slaves also grew and they became one of the largest consumers of human slaves. The slavery that they practiced was not yet racial slavery: most slaves sold in Italy were Muslims from Spain, North Africa, Crete, the Balkans, and the Ottoman Empire. There was a trickle of black slaves into Spain, Portugal, and Italy, but they were only a very small minority.

Almost all the slaves in Italy were domestic servants and most wealthy in most cities had at least one. When a slave was acquired, the owner acquired full rights, including the right to sell and "enjoy," that slave. For the most part, the slaves were incorporated into the household and their children were always were always born free. In many cases when a slaveowner produced a child with a slave, the slaveowner would raise the child as a legitimate child. A more insidious side of slavery was developing, however, in this period. In the Venetian sugar cane plantations in Cyprus and Crete, a new kind of "plantation slave" grew into existence. Since sugar is a labor intensive industry, this new type of slave was acquired for purely economical reasons: the cheapest labor possible.

In short, we in this thread have been discussing Jefferson as if he is a fellow that points forward to Lincoln and beyond to today's mores. I would submit that, however, this is at most a half truth. Sitting in his Palladian mansion, running his plantation Monticello, and - yes - owning slaves - Jefferson is a fellow who looks back to Lorenzo d' Medici at least as much as he looks forward to the present.

And disturbingly, there is some deep link between the culture of the Renaissance and slavery. I have yet to figure this out.

By stating this do I judge him? No. I critique him. I feel uncomfortable judging anybody. But you may take this information as you see fit, to attack, defend, or further critique.

However, if we are going to understand and deal with this thing called slavery, it would make sense to analyze its nature and circumstances.

And we also should note that slavery is by no means a purely historical issue. With the widespread spread of human trafficking, slavery is reasserting itself today. I have heard reports that it can even be found within the United States today.


Mr. Kinder,

Interesting. I didn't know that plantation slavery and pure chattel slavery existed in Italy to that extent. The slavery practiced in the Crusader states at around the same period appears to have been milder. See the laws of the Kingdom of Jerusalem regarding 'enjoying' one's slave.

You make a good point though in that slavery was largely absent during the Middle Ages and came back with the Renaissance just as it later came back even more virulently with the Enlightenment. Might it be that these two things were not unrelated? Did the culture of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, which exalted the freedom of the individual, also inevitably lead to the freedom of the individual from having to obey the Christian moral teachings about human equality and dignity? Did the cult of leisure in the Renaissance and Enlightenment rest on the extraction of labor power from slaves? Did the veneration for antiquity translate inevitably into an emulation of the worst aspects of antiquity? These are deep questions and I think many of us would find the answers troubling.

Sad that Chris Ford was the first to bring up Notes on Virginia. If you read the book (Jefferson's only book), you'll see that he thinks blacks are inferior, and this can be scientifically proved based on smell. So there goes that theory Mr. Ford. What prescience Jefferson had indeed.

Jefferson was a complicated man full of contradictions. For someone who believed in the limited powers of the Federal Government, he did more to expand its powers than his two predecessors. The Louisana Purchase was outside the Constitution and Jefferson was later brought to trial for this. He believed in liberty, but could not bring himself to grant liberty to Sally Heming, a woman he fathered children with and lived with as a wife. So I think discussions of Jefferson ought to be more than "was he a big old meany" or whatever this droll post was about.

I think a lot of my view of Jefferson is tied up with his relationship with Sally Hemmings. (This assumes that they did have a sexual relationship, as the evidence strongly indicates.)

From what I understand, Jefferson truly loved his first wife, Martha Wayles. After she dies, he "takes up" with her half-sister, Sally Hemmings, who is also Jefferson's property. Did he love her, as he loved her half-sister? Is there any way that a sexual relationship between owner and slave can be consensual? How does she feel about him? What about their kids? The whole thing just comes as creepy to me.

Is there any way that a sexual relationship between owner and slave can be consensual?

It's not like the status of white women was so great in 18th century Virginia. Jefferson owned his wife pretty much as he owned his slaves. I don't see his relationship with Hemmings as particularly creepier than all 18th century marriages.

Re Dave

Assuming that there was a sexual relationship between Jefferson and Ms. Hemings, for all we know, she seduced him and was perfectly happy with the arrangement. By the way, he did free her children who were born after she joined the entourage at Monticello, which is perhaps the strongest evidence that they were his.

Did the culture of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, which exalted the freedom of the individual, also inevitably lead to the freedom of the individual from having to obey the Christian moral teachings about human equality and dignity?

Hector

As if these 'Christian moral teachings' profoundly influenced the order of society in prior eras ....

"for all we know, she seduced him and was perfectly happy with the arrangement."

Are you serious? She was his property. He literally owned her. Yes, it's possible that she could have seduced him. But given the imbalance of power, that seems unlikely. And even if she did seduce him, what does it mean to have a "consensual" relationship with someone who can sell you and your children?


>>Christian Socialism...The rule of Great Men. Republics of the Saints. Government by the virtuous, in the Platonic sense....General Velasco's short lived regime in Peru

So theocratic fascist dictatorships, then.

Hector's clear arguments have convinced me. We need to repeal the Renaissance.

what does it mean to have a "consensual" relationship with someone who can sell you and your children?

I imagine it was a lot like the the relationship that Jefferson had with his wife. While Jefferson couldn't sell his wife, he did have the right to sell off his white children, and his wife had no say in the matter. It was common for boys to be bound out as apprentices at young ages or for girls to be married off.

Re: The "peculiar institution" of slavery dates back to Graeco-Roman times and - although submerged during the Middle Ages - revived during the Renaissance - about a century before the Age of Exploration made contact with both potential slaves Africa and potential plantations in the Americas.

You're leaving out the Middle East, where slavery flourished all through the Middle Ages, first off Slavic captives from Russia via Byzantium (hence the Slave

Re: Did the cult of leisure in the Renaissance and Enlightenment rest on the extraction of labor power from slaves?

Renaissance prosperity at least rested on the fact that in the 14th century about a third of the population had been wiped out by the Black Death, leaving the physical capital of society almost untouched. Fertility rates also stayed low for about a century, keeping the population at low levels.

Re: Jefferson owned his wife pretty much as he owned his slaves.

That's way overstating it. Mrs Jefferson could not have been sold, put up for collateral or inherited. In fact, had she out-lived her husband she could have inherited his property herself, as Martha Washington did her husband's. Women were second class citizens, absolutely, but at least they were still citizens, not chattel.

Re: Yes, it's possible that she could have seduced him. But given the imbalance of power, that seems unlikely.

Believe it or not, "imbalances of power" do not not rule out love. Sure, many modern folk might bristle at loving something who was superior over them, but that's a cultural artifact of the present day, unknwon in the past. Children, who are untouched by it, still manage to love their parents.

Jim,

I believe that the example I gave of a regime I liked was Velasco's "Revolutionary Government of the Armed Forces" in the late '60s in Peru. In what sense could that regime possibly be called a 'theocratic fascist dictatorship'? It was, arguably, a dictatorship (one run by the army in the name of the workers and peasants) but there wasn't much about it that was either theocratic, or fascist, unless you also want to call Nasser's Egypt a theocratic fascist state.

Colonel Humala, who more or less represented a return to the Velasco era, won 49% of the vote in Peru's election two years ago, and we have assuredly not heard the last of him.

Mr. doug is missing the point relative to my comments about the DNA test. The fact of the matter is that left wing commentators have pointed to that test as the smoking gun which proves beyond any doubt the joint paternity of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings of at least one of her male children. The fact is that it does nothing of the sort. It merely proves that the child in question was fathered by a Jefferson, not necessarily Thomas Jefferson. For a definitive test, a sample of Thomas Jeffersons' DNA would be required. It is my understanding that his DNA might be recoverable from some of his hairs that have been preserved. I would propose, if this is true, that such a test be performed on those hair roots which would settle the matter to better then 99% certainty.

That's silly, though. We held murder trials before DNA evidence. The DNA evidence, taken alone, proves that someone in Jefferson's family fathered children with Hemings. But most historians were pretty sure already, based on non-DNA evidence, that Thomas Jefferson fathered her children and not some other Jefferson. He was with Sally in the right places at the right time, these sorts of relationships between white masters and black female slaves were common, the kids looked like Thomas, and at least one of the kids was told that Thomas was his father. That would be enough for a jury to find against Thomas Jefferson in a paternity suit, even without any DNA test result.

Then you add DNA that narrows the pool of fathers down to Thomas and a few male relatives, and add the fact that the male relatives of Thomas Jefferson did not have access to Sally during the right time periods, and it is conclusive. Demanding additional testing at this point is just a state of denial. We are beyond a reasonable doubt here.

I believe that the example I gave of a regime I liked was Velasco's "Revolutionary Government of the Armed Forces" in the late '60s in Peru. In what sense could that regime possibly be called a 'theocratic fascist dictatorship'? It was, arguably, a dictatorship (one run by the army in the name of the workers and peasants) but there wasn't much about it that was either theocratic, or fascist, unless you also want to call Nasser's Egypt a theocratic fascist state.

Of course, what Hector fails to mention is that Velasco refused to leave office and had to be deposed by the the right-wing regime of Morales-Burmudez, who then, several years later, at least had the decency to call for elections and step down voluntarily.

And that Velasco came to power by deposing Fernando Belaunde, a hugely respected Peruvian politician who was committed to democracy and the rule of law.

And that Velasco ushered in a period where Peruvian politics was governed by personalities and force, not democratic election. Arguably, this period lasted from 1968 when Velasco came in until 2001 when Fujimori was finally thrown out after 11 years in power.

Ollanta Humala, whom Hector mentions, is no bargain either-- he calls explicitly to align Peru with Hugo Chavez, and his 49 percent of the vote came against one of the most unpopular former Presidents in Peruvian history, Alan Garcia. However, if Humala does eventually take power, at least, unlike Velasco, it will come by means of the ballot box. In that sense he is far preferable.

Re Dilan Esper

1. How does Mr. Esper know that no other male cousins of Thomas Jefferson had access to Sally Hemings? I am not aware that the minute by minute comings and goings of these fellows was well documented. Just for the record, I do not disagree with the Thomas Jefferson fathered the children theory. My only point is that the DNA evidence certainly includes Thomas Jefferson but does not exclude any of his male cousins.

2. Would Mr. Exper like to back up his claim that most historians agreed that Thomas Jefferson father Ms. Hemings children prior to the DNA tests. It is my understanding that it was the DNA test that changed the minds of such previously skeptical historians as Joseph Ellis.

3. Yes indeed, we held trials before DNA evidence existed and, as Barry Schecks' innocence project has demonstrated, many of those trials ended in incorrect guilty verdicts.

4. We are not talking here about the infamous 1 chance in 6 billion that the DNA found on one of the blood samples in the O. J. Simpson case belonged to somebody other then his ex wife.

1. How does Mr. Esper know that no other male cousins of Thomas Jefferson had access to Sally Hemings? I am not aware that the minute by minute comings and goings of these fellows was well documented. Just for the record, I do not disagree with the Thomas Jefferson fathered the children theory. My only point is that the DNA evidence certainly includes Thomas Jefferson but does not exclude any of his male cousins.

It is true, we don't have minute by minute diaries. But Jefferson spent significant amounts of time in places where Sally was present and his other male relatives were not-- e.g., Paris.

2. Would Mr. Exper like to back up his claim that most historians agreed that Thomas Jefferson father Ms. Hemings children prior to the DNA tests. It is my understanding that it was the DNA test that changed the minds of such previously skeptical historians as Joseph Ellis.

Our two claims are not inconsistent. Most historians already were convinced. Some were skepitcal and are now convinced.

3. Yes indeed, we held trials before DNA evidence existed and, as Barry Schecks' innocence project has demonstrated, many of those trials ended in incorrect guilty verdicts.

That's silly. Most pre-DNA criminal trials resulted in correct guilty verdicts. Many DNA tests have confirmed the guilt of convicted defendants. You just don't hear about those.

In any event, it is a non-sequitur. Here, the DNA evidence WAS CONSISTENT with the previous hypothesis.

4. We are not talking here about the infamous 1 chance in 6 billion that the DNA found on one of the blood samples in the O. J. Simpson case belonged to somebody other then his ex wife.

Yeah, we are talking about 6 in 6 billion instead. And the other 5 never went to Paris.

Dilan,

Of course Velasco 'refused to leave office'. He had no intention of staging elections, since he was ideologically opposed to the liberal-democratic form of government. His supporters were fully aware of that so I'm not sure why you think any of us should find it surprising. It's not like the worker and peasant classes in whose name he was ruling were exactly clamoring for him to leave power, either. Opposition to Velasco came mostly from the oligarchy and the middle classes.

He was also removed, in large part, because he was seriously ill and incapacitated. It's doubtful that the right wing Bermudez clique would have been able to betray his revolution had he been in better health.

I'm very much a supporter of Ollanta Humala of course but I should point out to you that he's not any more of a democrat than Velasco. He and his brothers tried to stage a coup in 2005 and took the electoral route only when that failed. Ollanta was very clear during the election campaign that putting him in power would mean ending liberal democracy in Peru. That may have played in his favor, since a poll in 2005 showed that a majority of Peruvians believed liberal democracy was not appropriate for Peru, and that authoritarian government was needed. Authoritarianism is the natural form of government for a country like Peru, liberal democracy is very much the exception and will always be unstable and short lived when it does come into existence.

Hector, I was just in Lima a week ago. I don't think most of the Limenos that I spoke to and dealt with, and who are quite proud of the strides their country has made since the demise of Fujimorismo, would agree with your assessment that "authoritarianism is the natural form of government for a country like Peru". Only in the most Hobbesian sense of "natural" is that statement true.

Dilan,

A 2006 survey by the UNDP found that 75% of Peruvians thought that Peru needed an authoritarian government. Not surprising, that- liberal-democratic governments in Latin America tend to be the creatures of the upper classes and the American embassy. Authoritarianism _is_ very definitely the natural form of government for Peru, and one to which it will return. Wait and see. Liberal democracy is a Western invention that is not appropriate for most non-Western countries.

Regarding your personal experience, it's worth noting that Lima (as with other capital cities in LA) tends to be somewhat wealthier and more politically pro-Western than the rural areas. Ollanta lost Lima but won most of rural Peru. Also, which class were your interlocutors from? The upper and middle classes tend to favor liberal democracy, capitalism, and social democrats like Garcia, while the poor tend to be much more in favor of radical governments. Interestingly, Ollanta was considerably more popular with men than with women.

Hector: You may wish to recall, though, that you're not simply speaking of the form of government -- but its composition and its behavior in power.

So, while the form of government under Velasco may have allowed him to act in certain ways in which you support, a different actor in his power position could easily use those powers to act in manners you don't like.

Which is not an argument in favor or against a military-led dictatorship in and of itself; but it is to request you stop mixing up the simple form of government with all the other determining factors you're mixing in.

Hector, I don't buy the survey. When Fujimori wouldn't leave, protesters started washing the flags in the Plaza de Armas and Alejandro Toledo led La Marcha de los 4 Suyos against the government. Democracy is actually extremely popular in Peru when it gets threatened.

And the rejection of Humala shows this. He was running against a corrupt former President who left the country in disgrace after his first term featured corruption scandals, hyperinflation (2 new currencies, 1,000,000-fold inflation in 5 years), and the rise of Sendero and the MRTA. Yet in the maximally favorable scenario, running against an awful candidate, he still only got 49 percent of the vote.

You are somewhat correct about Lima-- Garcia carried Lima, though he was stronger on other parts of the coast. But Lima isn't what it once was-- it now has tons of folks who moved into the pueblos jovenes from the Andes so there are plenty of peasants living there. It isn't like Santa Cruz in Bolivia, for instance.

Dilan,

Louis Farrakhan could get a million Americans to march for black nationalism, and the Catholic bishops could get almost a million to march for a nuclear freeze. Does this mean that either black nationalism or a nuclear freeze are particularly popular in America? I don't think so.

Humala was running as an upstart who many people had barely even heard of. His patrons were Cuba and Venezuela- two mid sized middle income countries- while Garcia's was the might United States Embassy- hardly a fair fight. In spite of his inexperience, his heavy United States backing, the fact that his opponent had much more money and more sympathy among the media and other established institutions, in spite of the fact that many poor people in Latin America vote the way their employers want them to vote, in spite of the fact that Humala's politics used _extremely_ radical rhetoric (talking about how he was going to start with political executions of the governing class) and in spite of the fact that Garcia was running at a relatively good economic time for the country, Garcia _still_ barely eked out a marginal victory.

Give Humala a couple of years, and let him run at a time when Peru's economy is in the toilet again, and he will win (that is, if Garcia doesn't get wise and try to lock Humala in prison, as he tried to do last year.)

Hector, you can't compare the Million Man March, which was a one-off, to the movements Toledo led for a year and a half with constant marches and protests in 2000-01. Basically, Toledo was able to mobilize so much pressure that the Fujimori/Montesinos regime, which people thought would stay in power forever, was forced out. Toledo didn't do such a great job as President (President of Peru is a VERY hard job), but he will forever get credit for that.

And you are just wrong on Humala. He's less popular now than he was at the time of the election, and there is tremendous distrust of Chavez in Peru (and Evo Morales as well). And I say that as someone who doesn't have nearly as negative a view of Chavez as the US government has.

Finally, the US government's support for Garcia was quite limited. The movement conservatives who make Latin American policy for Bush have a very testy history wich Garcia and his party-- the Apristas are very much on the left, although not as far left as Humala. Garcia won that election basically on his own, and completed the greatest comeback since Lazarus, because he had the benefit of an opponent whom 50 percent of the public could never and will never vote for.

Besides, Charles V had to contend with the equally powerful and equally expansive Suleiman Sultan. Oh, also Henry 8 and Francis who were quite happy to attack him in the back.

Besides, Charles V had to contend with the equally powerful and equally expansive Suleiman Sultan. Oh, also Henry 8 and Francis who were quite happy to attack him in the back.

I haven't seen the latest polls on Humala's popularity since 2006, can you give me some links?

If his popularity has fallen, it's probably because Peru's economy has done a bit better in the last few years. When the economy turns down again (and it will- dependency on the United States is not a good foundation for real development) I bet Humala will come back into favor.

APRA is only in a very broad sense 'on the left'. It was founded as an explicitly reformist rather than socialist party, and as early as the 1960s they were seen as essentially a bourgeois party, and APRA and Velasco's left-wing military regime cordially hated each other. They are, at best, social democrats rather than anything resembling socialist or left-nationalist. The United States supported him as they support any force in Latin America that is less radical-left than the alternative. It was clear throughout the election that US aid and trade would suffer if Humala won the election.

You're also ignoring the factor of birth rates. The people who voted for Humala- the rural poor- have higher birth rates than the modern, Westernized urban middle classes who made up Garcia's base of support. All other things being equal, in 10 years there will be a new cohort of voters and they will probably be disproportionately supporters of Ollanta. Demographic trends strongly favor Ollanta.

Re Dilan Esper

1. It should be pointed out that the DNA tests only demonstrate that one of Ms. Hemings' children was fathered by a Jefferson. This does not exclude the other children as being fathered by Thomas Jefferson as some of them were female and the male line for her other male children was probably broken somewhere between then and now.

2. I was not aware that any of the children of Ms. Hemings were conceived in Paris. Would Mr. Esper care to provide a reference to this. In particular, was the male child whose DNA was matched conceived in Paris?

3. Actually, it is not possible to compute the odds on a DNA match of just the Y chromosome as there could well be thousands of men in history who shared the Y chromosome with Thomas Jefferson (see the comment above by Mr. Don Williams). DNA typing for forensic work, depending on whether one is talking about RFLP or 2nd generation PCR typing requires multiple loci in the DNA molecule for matches (in the O. J. Simpson trial, the DNA laboratory CELMARK used 5 loci to arrive at the 1 in 6 billion number).

Re: Not surprising, that- liberal-democratic governments in Latin America tend to be the creatures of the upper classes and the American embassy.

Odd. Usually authoriatrian govermments in Latin America have served the interests of the upper classes.

Re: Liberal democracy is a Western invention that is not appropriate for most non-Western countries.

Hector, I enjoy your posts and respect many of your ideas, but the above is, well, as silly as saying "indoor plumbing and anesthesia are Western innovations and not appropriate to the rest of the world."

Re: They are, at best, social democrats rather than anything resembling socialist or left-nationalist.

You say "social democrat" as if it were the equivalent of "reactionary right". Do you realize that for many of us in this country social democracy would be a dream? What do you have against it?

Re: Demographic trends strongly favor Ollanta.

You are making the same mistake that some on the Right make in this country when they opine that since conservative Christians have more kids than secular liberal, their politics is fated to triumph. Politics is not hereditary and the very political landscape can change so much in a generation that even if it were, yesterday's leaders might still be irrelevant to the children of their erstwhile supporters.

Hector:

“Regarding Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers, I've always found much truth in what King George had to say about them: ‘How strange that we seem to hear the loudest cries for liberty from the drivers of Negroes.’”

I’m fairly certain that George III didn’t make the statement you attribute to him. (I’ve never seen the quote before, and epigrams were not his style. I googled the statement and parts of it but nothing led to King George) However, the much quoted Dr. Johnson, in 1775, wrote "How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?"

http://www.samueljohnson.com/popular.html

Might that be what you intended to refer to?

You're also ignoring the factor of birth rates. The people who voted for Humala- the rural poor- have higher birth rates than the modern, Westernized urban middle classes who made up Garcia's base of support.

Hector, nobody wins an election in Peru with just the middle class. Vargas Llosa and Perez de Cuellar tried it. It can't be done.

Garcia, and the APRA, had plenty of support among the coastal poor as well as the middle class. Humala is popular in the highlands and the jungle.

SLC:

Hemings came back from Paris six months pregnant with Jefferson's child. (See this: http://www.edwardsly.com/hemings.htm ) Jefferson's male relatives were not with Jefferson when he was an ambassador. Obviously, Jefferson impregnated her.

Look, there's obviously no piece of evidence that can convince you that Jefferson was doing the nasty with his slave. But since there is a historical consensus on it at this point, your opinion really doesn't matter. I suppose there are still some geocentrists and flat-earthers too.

So go on and wallow in your ignorance if you wish.

SLC- the evidence for Jefferson and Sally Hemings' child that was conceived in Paris came from the memoir of their son Madison Hemings. You can find it here at pbs.org. The child died shortly after birth.

"Thos. Jefferson was a visitor at the "great house" of John Wales, who had children about his own age. He formed the acquaintance of his daughter Martha (I believe that was her name, though I am not positively sure,) and intimacy sprang up between them which ripened into love, and they were married. They afterwards went to live at his country seat Monticello, and in course of time had born to them a daughter whom they named Martha. About the time she was born my mother, the second daughter of John Wales and Elizabeth Hemings was born. On the death of John Wales, my grandmother, his concubine, and her children by him fell to Martha, Thomas Jefferson's wife, and consequently became the property of Thomas Jefferson, who in the course of time became famous, and was appointed minister to France during our revolutionary troubles, or soon after independence was gained. About the time of the appointment and before he was ready to leave the country his wife died, and as soon after her interment as he could attend to and arrange his domestic affairs in accordance with the changed circumstances of his family in consequence of this misfortune (I think not more than three weeks thereafter) he left for France, taking his eldest daughter with him. He had sons born to him, but they died in early infancy, so he then had but two children--Martha and Maria. The latter was left home, but afterwards was ordered to follow him to France. She was three years or so younger than Martha. My mother accompanied her as a body servant. When Mr. Jefferson went to France Martha was just budding into womanhood. Their stay (my mother's and Maria's) was about eighteen months. But during that time my mother became Mr. Jefferson's concubine, and when he was called back home she was enciente by him. He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promise, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston--three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families."

The bolded passage also hints at Jefferson's feelings toward Sally Hemings.

Dilan,

Alan Garcia won the coastal poor because that's an area that has traditionally been a stronghold of APRA. It was party loyalty that got him the votes, not any attraction to Garcia or his policies. For similar reasons as people in parts of New England often vote for liberal, Jeffords/Chaffee Republicans rather than for Democrats. Since the old party identifications are becoming less relevant in much of South America, I suspect that APRA's advantage will decrease over time.

Regardless, even if Garcia had _some_ support among the poor, it seems clear that Humala's electoral base was poorer than Garcia's. Humala's base was almost _entirely_ made up of rural peasants, and the urban poor, presumably with some support from the army and radical intellectuals as well.


Re Dilan Esper

1. It is now obvious that Mr. Esper has a reading comprehension problem. So let me repeat the facts. Only one of Ms. Hemings children (apparently there were 7) has been identified, through DNA typing, as being fathered by a Jefferson. Based on the article to which Mr. Esper linked, it is obvious that the child which Ms. Hemings conceived in Paris was not the male child which passed on the Y chromosome in question. Thus, there is no scientific evidence that the child conceived in Paris was fathered by a Jefferson, Thomas or any of his cousins. Period, end of story. Let me repeat that, no scientific evidence. That doesn't mean that it is false.

2. As I stated above, I think that the fact that Jefferson freed the children of Ms. Hemings and no other of his chattels is the strongest evidence of his paternity. There is no particular reason why Jefferson would free children fathered by one or more of his cousins.

3. As for Mr. Esper comparing me with flat-earthers and geo-centrists, he is cordially invited deposit that comment where the sun don't shine.

Re Esper

Actually, the article to which Mr. Esper linked supports my surmise that the relationship between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings might well have been mutual. Apparently, Jefferson treated her as if she were his second wife, although it was unofficial because it was illegal for them to marry in the State of Virginia.

Selfish? Well, maybe. But it is worth noting that Jefferson was never financially very successful and in fact was deeply in debt when he died. In that situation, I think most of us would have a hard time dismantling our only source of income. That's not to say it was the right choice, just a more difficult one than you make out.

SLC, I never opined on whether Jefferson's relationship with Hemings was one of equals. I simply said the evidence was overwhelming that he was banging Hemings. And you seem to concede that there's plenty of evidence for it, you are just nitpicking about the DNA when it is simply a portion of the overwhelming evidence.

Face it SLC-- Jefferson went black, and future historians will need to tell us whether he ever went back.

Regardless, even if Garcia had _some_ support among the poor, it seems clear that Humala's electoral base was poorer than Garcia's. Humala's base was almost _entirely_ made up of rural peasants, and the urban poor, presumably with some support from the army and radical intellectuals as well.

You sound like Hillary supporters, Hector-- as if only the rural poor in Peru count. Especially after the great migration during the terror-soaked 1980's, which brought so many Andean peasants to the coasts, the views of coastal residents certainly do count.

More broadly, you underestimate how hated Garcia and APRA were after 1990. The only reason they could ever come close to returning to power was because of how unelectable Humala was. Plenty of people who can't stand APRA and wouldn't have voted for Garcia under any other circumstance held their noses and did it. There's simply no evidence that Humala can build a broader base of support and win a national election.

Just finished a biography on Thomas Jefferson by a professor from a New England college( I can't recall the author's name, bought it at Barnes and Noble)
It has multiple insights into Jefferson's thoughts on slavery. At one point he did feel they were inherently inferior but changed this opinion in later years. He felt they had to be prepared for freedom, and provided training for his, particularly in later years. He freed one of his favorites whom he'd had trained as a French chef, but this person couldn't handle it, begged to return to Monticello, and then committed suicide. The author says Jefferson proposed ending slavery in the 1800s and the invention of the cotton gin prevented any chance of that plan succeeding.
Jefferson had to have a state lottery to pay his debts which required special legislation. He thus lost ownership of all his assets, including Monticello and his slaves. He appears to have planned to free them at his death.
This author does not believe he had children by Sally Hemmings and points out she was only 12 when she arrived in Paris.
Obviously his conclusions are not those held by many here but it is an extensively researched and documented work.

Re Dilan Esper

"Face it SLC-- Jefferson went black, and future historians will need to tell us whether he ever went back."

Oh come on Mr. Esper. Ms. Hemings was, at most, 1/4 black and possibly even less then that, which would make any children fathered by Thomas Jefferson or any of his cousins 1/8 or less black. In fact, the article to which Mr. Esper linked indicated that some of them later moved to Washington, D. C. and passed for white.

Dilan,

Humala won the poorest sections of Lima, actually. Many of those poor people who migrated to Lima wound up voting for Humala. Not a majority, perhaps, but a lot. I didn't say that the votes of urban poor 'don't count'. I would say however that some of them were casting votes based on what APRA used to be, rather than what it has become, and others probably voted the way their upper-class employers wanted them to vote. Elections are a tricky thing in a society as divided as Peru.

Moreover, I'm not sure if you're implying that I approve of the Shining Path terrorists, with youre reference to the terror-soaked 1980s, but I don't. In fact that was one of General Velasco's justifications for seizing powers, that only a 'revolution from above' could erase the threat of a Marxist 'revolution from below.' If Velasco had stayed in power indefinitely, there would have been no Shining Path. Humala of course was personally involved in the fight to defeat the Shining Path, just as Velasco helped suppress a Marxist peasant revolt in the 1960s.


http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3333
"In addition to geographical divisions, the presidential election also confirms the degree to which Peruvian society is increasingly split between rich and poor. While the outgoing Toledo administration has made notable progress in the war on poverty, the most recent government statistics, provided by the Palacio de Gobierno, indicate 48% of all Peruvians are still classified as poor, defined as living on less than $2 a day, while rural poverty is 68%, and the level of extreme poverty, defined as living on less than $1 a day, is 18%. Throughout the country, the well-to-do voted for García, but the poor voted for Humala. This was true even in Lima-Callao, which decided García's victory, as the poorer districts in the capital tended to vote for Humala."


Comments closed June 15, 2008.

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