Segway sales booming in response to high gas prices. A couple of weeks ago, I overheard someone who seemed to be an energy policy guy remarking that he thought it was weird that you don't see electric mopeds. I'm enjoying my conventional bicycle a lot. DC's mayor just bought one of those tiny Smart Cars and ditched his SUV. I suspect we'll start seeing a lot more diversity of conveyances in the future, as people and institutions try to tailor their choices more precisely to what they really need.
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Segway Boom
16 Jun 2008 12:05 pm
Comments (41)
Strange indeed that we don't see electric bicycles. They've been the rage in China for years where, in a city like Suzhou, they are more widespread than ordinary bicycles. That may be an idea whose time is about to arrive here in the U.S.
What in the heck is wrong with an actual bicycle? People need to get some goddamn exercise.
You forgot to mention that Vespa sales are through the roof as well.
I'd be a little concerned that any electronic gizmo on a bike would make it more attractive to thieves. Has China run into that problem?
Yep--it makes sense we will see more motorized bicycles, scooters, motorcycles, microcars, and so forth in response to higher gasoline prices.
But Segways are still ridiculous.
Dr. Mrs. Joe just called to complain about spending $70 on a tank of gas. I told her to be glad that we only do that with our one car every three weeks or so -- thanks to her selfless husband who usually commutes to/from work on foot (it's about 6 miles, but I'm a 3:00 marathoner who can cover that distance in about 40 minutes without much strain), bus (the stop on the way home is conveniently across the street from a buy-one-get-one-free happy hour bar, and wouldn't you know that I always seem to find myself with 15 minutes to kill before the next bus arrives?), or train.
But the decision to pay a little more for a house within running distance from work and walking distance from two forms of public transportation (as well as Dr. Mrs. Joe's workplace and the munchkin's preschool -- though we usually drive there for convenience reasons) was one of the best decisions I've made.
"What in the heck is wrong with an actual bicycle? People need to get some goddamn exercise."
What's wrong is that the amount exercise people *want* to take, and the time of day and conditions they want for it, don't necessarily match their commute. If we want to make a real difference, then we need to make efficient vehicles attractive to lots and lots of people. A bicycle with electric assist is attractive to people who might not consider pedal-power only: for myself, I'm buying a bicycle for commuting but I'm not sure I want to pedal up the half-mile hill at the end of my 10.5-mile commute, we'll see. And I might find 21 miles a day a bit too much: if I could cycle out and cruise back that might work better.
Modern bicycle technology is great: modern electric motor technology is great; modern battery technology is still only so-so. But the real obstacle seems to be that bicycle marketing in the USA is very heavily focused on selling it as a sporting and leisure activity. They'll sell you a $1000+ lightweight racing bike with skinny 23mm tires; or they sell you an $800 mountain bike with big knobbly tires that you won't want to pedal far; but applying that technology to the sweet spot for commuting is not really happening.
I believe the technology exists to make a really sweet $500 electric-assist commuter bicycle with decent range. And I wish we had policies to encourage that kind of thing: e.g. you get a subsidy on upgrading to a new efficient furnace or installing insulation: why not a $200 subsidy for buying an electric bicycle ? I think this is an area where a very modest public investment could trigger some useful innovation.
One reason that presumed energy policy guy doesn't see more electric scooters is that there isn't a framework for public recharging. If I go to a buddy's house, he'll let me charge my cell phone and iPod if I need it. I doubt he'd let me charge my scooter. And it takes a awhile.
One solution I proposed somewhere for electric cars, was a paradigm of stations where one could swiftly swap batteries, rather than "fill up" on electricity. Despite my utter lack of confidence in the electrical grid to handle electric vehicles, that sounds like a workable idea.
I read on yahoo that Honda is leasing Hydrogen cars in California. It is claimed that they get 70 mpg, but there are still some things unclear in the article.
1. how much does a "gallon" of hydrogen cost?
2. range was still an issue. If you get 70 mpg, does that mean the tank only holds 7 gallons?
Sorry, I lost the link, but I think you can handle google.com
Every once in a while I'll get passed on my bicycle by someone else on a bicycle who seems to hardly be pedaling but doesn't slow down on hills. And I'll feel very bad about myself, especially since I'm on a road bike, which usually lets me do the passing of people on mountain bikes, and they aren't. Then I realize they are on an electric bicycle. They're slowly becoming more common, but they are still very rare.
And Richard Cownie: if I could commute 30+ miles per day in Albuquerque during the summer in 100+ degree heat you can do 21 miles per day wherever you live! I wasn't sure I would do it every day, but I ended up loving it and regretting when I had to drive once every few weeks for whatever reason. Just give it a few weeks and 10 miles in the morning and again in the evening won't feel like overkill if you have the right kind of bike with the proper fit.
My biggest problem is the climate. I could ride my bike to work, but I would be soaked in sweat 5 months out of the year by the time I got there. I would still be moderately sweaty if I wasn't doing any of the work. This makes it tough to avoid using a car.
The second problem is what to do once you have kids? Car seats have gotten bulkier and more legally required over the years. It has become more and more of a pain to have anything other than a minivan or SUV with small kids. I am hoping they have solved this problem when my time comes in a few years.
What in the heck is wrong with an actual bicycle?
Climate, weather, safety, comfort, time, distance....
Ditto for Segways. I have a lot of respect for Dean Kamen, but I'm not sure why he ever thought the Segway could become a viable large-scale means of transportation.
Segway sales booming in response to high gas prices.
They've made a huge mistake.
And re: freddiemac, the Honda FCX has a range of a couple hundred miles, I think. I don't know what the pump price is at the very few hydrogen stations in SoCal, but I think Honda sets you up with a home fuel station when they lease these prototypes so the fueling costs are pretty low.
But the real obstacle seems to be that bicycle marketing in the USA is very heavily focused on selling it as a sporting and leisure activity.
Agreed: the bike, in American culture, is something you put on the back of your car and take somewhere, like a surfboard or kayak. Which ties in with the earlier discussion on how many drivers treat cyclists as freaks or threats to their masculinity.
DC's mayor just bought one of those tiny Smart Cars and ditched his SUV.
The Smart isn't really much more efficient than a decent small car. The relative paucity of the 'actual small car' market in the US -- even with the Fit, Echo and Scion range -- means that buying one is as much about the symbolism. After all, it's not as if the mayor needs to haul shit about.
It has become more and more of a pain to have anything other than a minivan or SUV with small kids.
Well, that depends. Three kids reduces your non-SUV/van options, but two with full/booster seats? You can do that in a Honda Fit. What's changed in the past decade is the assumption that you need to pack for an expedition when you take your kids to the shops. If you're saying that it's a pain to deprive them of their back-seat entertainment options, that's another matter.
"Just give it a few weeks and 10 miles in the morning and again in the evening won't feel like overkill if you have the right kind of bike with the proper fit"
Thanks for the encouragement. I got a good deal
from rei-outlet.com on a 2007 Marin Corte Madera - 700c wheels, 28mm tires, 24-speed Shimano, straight handlebars, should be just about perfect.
Which is just as well, because my fitness sure isn't ...
"The second problem is what to do once you have kids? Car seats have gotten bulkier and more legally required over the years. It has become more and more of a pain to have anything other than a minivan or SUV with small kids."
I have twin boys turning 3 next week. We got a Volvo V50 wagon and are very happy with it - enough space for a double stroller in the back. We have a 16cu ft roof box for the extra junk for vacation. Last year when we had visitors I rented a minivan (Grand Caravan) for a week, it makes life a little easier to fit more passengers, but filling it with gas really stung - about 14mpg.
Gas mileage on the V50 isn't wonderful, maybe 25mpg around town ? But it sure beats vans and SUVs. With 2 Britax car seats in the back an agile adult can just squeeze in between for an uncomfortable short trip.
But then we also live 2 blocks from a subway stop,
and have decent shops etc within a 10-minute walk.
Well, that depends. Three kids reduces your non-SUV/van options, but two with full/booster seats? You can do that in a Honda Fit.
My understanding from talking to friends with kids is that it is very difficult to get these seats in and out of small cars (and literally a pain in the back). And you have to do this task while putting groceries away and said kids are running around the parking lot. Hopefully it isn't as bad as claimed, but I am not looking forward to addressing this part of the equation.
My biggest problem is the climate. I could ride my bike to work, but I would be soaked in sweat 5 months out of the year by the time I got there. I would still be moderately sweaty if I wasn't doing any of the work. This makes it tough to avoid using a car.
The second problem is what to do once you have kids? Car seats have gotten bulkier and more legally required over the years. It has become more and more of a pain to have anything other than a minivan or SUV with small kids. I am hoping they have solved this problem when my time comes in a few years.
Posted by mpowell | June 16, 2008 1:15 PM
Pester your employer to put in a shower or two. Or ask them to make an arrangement with a nearby gym to let employees use the showers, if there is one nearby. If they provide health care, point out that encouraging employees to cycle to work will provide for healthier, fitter, less stressed, more productive employees. Also, get cycling-specific clothing. It will wick the sweat away from your body and keep you cooler. Buy some baby wipes and wipe off in the restroom. I'm sure the people at bikeforums.net can provide even more suggestions.
As far as the kids go, there are different things you may be able to do. If they are old enough to ride, but too young to go alone, can you ride with them to school? Get a carpool going? Get one of those things you can attach to your bike that they can ride in? Isn't there busing? You've probably considered all of that. How about driving them to school, but also bringing you bike. Then, leave you car somewhere nearby and ride to work. This is also a solution for people who have commutes that they consider too long to ride.
I don't understand all the people who have SUVs/minivans for 1 or 2 kids and see it as a necessity. My parents got by fine with a Camry driving my sister and myself on long road trips.
Thanks for the encouragement. I got a good deal
from rei-outlet.com on a 2007 Marin Corte Madera - 700c wheels, 28mm tires, 24-speed Shimano, straight handlebars, should be just about perfect.
Which is just as well, because my fitness sure isn't ...
Posted by Richard Cownie | June 16, 2008 1:37 PM
Sounds good. Two other things: resist the temptation to get a padded seat, as they are more uncomfortable and can cut off circulation than the standard hard seats most roadies use. Also, you may want to consider swapping the handlebars out for something else eventually. This is because it can be uncomfortable to ride for extended periods with only one grip position. Your local bike shop should have some different styles that you can look at. But that's something you can think about later.
"My understanding from talking to friends with kids is that it is very difficult to get these seats in and out of small cars (and literally a pain in the back). And you have to do this task while putting groceries away and said kids are running around the parking lot. Hopefully it isn't as bad as claimed, but I am not looking forward to addressing this part of the equation."
Why on earth would you be taking the car seats out in the parking lot of the grocery store? The way they work is that you hook them in and leave them there until they are needed in another car. Most people I know have separate seats in every car in which the kids ride -- and some even have an extra loose seat or two in case the kid needs to go in a non-relative's car.
As for being a pain, that's true but it's gotten better in cars built since the late 90s. The LATCH system actually makes it pretty easy to attach a seat.
Today I saw a guy riding a powered scooter to a Metro stop outside Washington. I don't mean a Vespa. I mean the kind of scooter you stand on, with handlebars that attach to a post that turns the front wheel.
This wasn't a kid, either. He had white hair.
Why on earth would you be taking the car seats out in the parking lot of the grocery store?
I can understand that if you have one of those modern stroller/buggy combos where the seat detaches to go into the car. But I've seen those used without too much inconvenience in two-door hatchbacks.
I picked up a folding bike this weekend, one that'll easily fit in the trunk of my Honda Accord. This way I can do multi-mode commutes, particularly when I have to take the kids to school. So the plan during the school year is car to school, bike from school to light rail, light rail to near the office and ride the final mile. Takes about 15 minutes more than a typical drive, but I get exercise and about 30 minutes on the train to read, which is much nicer than sitting in gridlock. I'll save about 5 bucks a day on gas. During the summer I'm leaving out the first leg (car to school) and saving about 8 bucks a day.
Small wagons and four-door hatchbacks (including the Prius if you are so inclined) actually make pretty nice family cars if you only have a couple kids and don't intend to go on cross-country excursions.
"I can understand that if you have one of those modern stroller/buggy combos where the seat detaches to go into the car."
I understood him to be referring to kids over the age of 1 ("booster seats," "running around the parking lot," etc.). While car seat/stroller combos might exist that accommodate kids older than that, I'm unaware of them. Our daughter is 22 months, and she's been in a normal car seat since her first birthday.
I don't understand all the people who have SUVs/minivans for 1 or 2 kids and see it as a necessity. My parents got by fine with a Camry driving my sister and myself on long road trips.
As other people have noted, the legal requirement of car seats for each child makes 2 door vehicles impractical. Even 4 door sedans are tough with 2 kids who need help getting buckled in and impossible with more. It doesn't help that the vehicle next to you in the parking lot is often a massive Suburban or Excursion that takes up 1.5 parking spots, so you have very little room to maneuver.
I'd love to be able to have a little hatchback but until the kids are 7 or 8 it won't happen.
Just give it a few weeks and 10 miles in the morning and again in the evening won't feel like overkill if you have the right kind of bike with the proper fit.
I admire your positive attitude and I fully support making cities more bike friendly, but I also wanted to put a damper of realism on things here --- not everybody likes biking. I've been a bike commuter twice in my life, once while I was an exchange student in Japan for a month, and once during a summer job in college. Both times, I hated it.
The Japan route was about 45 minutes in each direction across flat land, but I would get to school each morning drenched in sweat. Not pleasant at all. Of course, 95% of the students also rode their bikes, and they sweat a lot less than me. So maybe it was just a sweaty white boy problem. Also, this was during July, in humid monsoon weather.
The college summer job was in Southern California, in the foothills. Also about 45 minutes each way. Lots of hills --> lots of pain. I found it not worth it to try biking uphill, so I mostly walked my bike uphill. Inland in the summer --> lots of warm weather --> lots of sweat. After trying this for a few weeks I began walking to the bus stop instead and was a lot happier.
My point is not to denigrate biking. If you like it, great. But for me, I hated it. I'd much rather combine walking and public transit.
sweat is one problem with biking to work, but here is another: snow. Yes, some people still haven't moved to the sun belt and deal with ice and snow. There is no way I would bike to work in the winter.
As other people have noted, the legal requirement of car seats for each child makes 2 door vehicles impractical.
If, by 'impractical', you mean 'slightly more of a hassle'.
Another issue for some people, women in particular, is physical safety. A locked car isn't a perfect security bubble, but it's better than being on foot or on a bike in a questionable neighborhood. There are definitely places I would drive to but would never consider walking to. Especially not at night.
"Even 4 door sedans are tough with 2 kids who need help getting buckled in and impossible with more"
The small wagons like the V50, or perhaps Toyota
Matrix, seem ok for 2 kids. For sure, it's hard
work squeezing around a hinged door and clicking
them in, but there are plenty of other things about
having 2 toddlers that are much harder than that ...
I looked at the Mazda5 as well, which has the
sliding doors. But that has pretty crappy mileage
(excellent for a van, poor for a car).
"Also, you may want to consider swapping the handlebars out for something else eventually"
Thanks for the advice. I used to ride a Trek 1000
with drop bars, so I know it's nice to change position: might try aerobars. I have to go about 3 miles through some busy streets where I probably need to stay upright, but then about 7 miles through quieter suburbs, so anything is going to
involve some compromise.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to trying it: seems
like the new technology of index shifters, 8-speed
cassettes, and linear-pull brakes are a big step
up from the old 10-speed I had in the 80's.
"If, by 'impractical', you mean 'slightly more of a hassle'."
I certainly wouldn't like to try a 2-door: the doors
on a 2-door have to be longer to allow access to the
back. So if you're parked in a moderately tight spot you can't open them all the way. Then lifting in a baby seat and/or clipping in a toddler is going to require some fairly awkward contortions.
There are very reasonable choices for economical 4-door cars, e.g. Toyota Matrix, Nissan Versa, Honda Fit. The extra gas saved from the lighter weight of the 2-door versions is pretty small.
I don't fucking understand the Segway when you could get a Honda Ruckus, a masculine, smooth-looking scooter for $2100 that gets 85 mpg and is fun as hell to drive. Don't know why cops are getting the less stable, slower and much more expensive Segway instead either, other than it gives you a high vantage point.
I don't fucking understand the Segway when you could get a Honda Ruckus, a masculine, smooth-looking scooter for $2100 that gets 85 mpg and is fun as hell to drive. Don't know why cops are getting the less stable, slower and much more expensive Segway instead either, other than it gives you a high vantage point.
"I don't fucking understand the Segway when you could get a Honda Ruckus, a masculine, smooth-looking scooter for $2100 that gets 85 mpg and is fun as hell to drive."
The Segway is competing against walking: it goes
on sidewalks, it goes indoors, it's quiet. I can
see how it makes sense for workers who need to
travel slowly but for hours. But it isn't really a
vehicle for getting you from A to B.
Example use: went to the Museum of Science in Boston
last weekend. They had a mobile information
assistant riding around on a Segway. He could take
it up and down on the elevator, he could cruise
around the exhibits, or he could just stand around
and wait for people to ask questions.
We asked how fast it could go: IIRC he said up to 20mph. Seems that would be pretty useful for a middle-aged cop trying to catch a 20-year-old
runner.
On the scooters, they look fun but I don't really
understand why the gas mileage is only 85mpg.
Perhaps because they have relatively inefficient
engines and especially wasteful pulley torque-
converter automatic transmission ? With total
weight of rider+vehicle around 500lb compared to
a 2500lb car, and probably 4x less frontal
area, it seems the basic engineering constraints
would allow you to get 4-5x higher gas mileage,
e.g. 5x25 = 125mpg+.
My car is a small, 4-door hatchback, my kids are 1 and 5. I've no trouble fitting their seats, strapping them in, and fitting a buggy and a load of shopping in the boot. I really don't see where the problem can arise...
One problem is government policy in various ways encourages people to choose a single vehicle: you pay sales tax, registration fees, excise taxes etc for each vehicle you own. Which makes it hard to justify spending extra money on a scooter when you have a car. But from a gas-usage perspective, we
want to encourage people to have several vehicles and choose the most appropriate one for each trip.
So we ought to replace all these vehicle-related
taxes and fees with a carbon tax to give the right
incentives. And then give an extra push with a
tax credit for purchase of fuel-efficient vehicles.
Then a bit of government R&D money might help with
some of the issues with current vehicles - e.g.
the apparent inefficiency of scooter transmission.
It seems like a $300 bicycle has a more efficient
and wider-ranging transmission than a $2000 scooter: surely that's a problem that could be fixed.
A few random comments:
First, we have a two-door as our second car, a four-door for our first. A two-door is certainly doable with a carseat, but I agree there is enough convenience to four doors to make them preferable if you are going back there a lot--and there are plenty of small and efficient four-doors around. Conversely, I see all those SUVs and vans crowding the parking lots as a plus for smaller cars--having to park your SUV next to their SUV can really leave very little space.
Second, I am always amazed at people who cite passing through questionable neighborhoods as a reason to prefer commuting by cars. Many more people are killed in car accidents each year than are murdered, and if you limit that to stranger murders, the difference is bigger, and if you limited that to murders of strangers just biking or walking, it would be miniscule in comparison to fatalities in car accidents. As implied above, we obviously do use cars anyway, but I fully recognize that safety is a drawback to travel by car.
Second, I am always amazed at people who cite passing through questionable neighborhoods as a reason to prefer commuting by cars. Many more people are killed in car accidents each year than are murdered, and if you limit that to stranger murders, the difference is bigger, and if you limited that to murders of strangers just biking or walking, it would be miniscule in comparison to fatalities in car accidents.
But that's not the relevant comparison. The relevant comparison is the fatality rate (not fatality number) among people biking or walking through questionable neighborhoods vs. the fatality rate among people driving through questionable neighborhoods. And I would hazard to guess that the fatality rate among the first group is probably considerably higher.
Mixner,
I would guess you are very wrong.
Comments closed June 30, 2008.
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Heads in the Sand
The Smart Car gets disappointing gas mileage in relation to its size. But I dig the thought. The problem is the version that's really efficient is the diesel, and there isn't a big enough diesel market in the US so they don't sell them here.
Really, there's no substitute from living close to work, and to the things you need to live your life. Now, if we spent $200 billion a year on redevelopment according to intelligent zoning policy, instead of on Iraq, well....
Posted by Freddie | June 16, 2008 12:13 PM