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The Big Test

30 Jun 2008 10:10 am

Joe Lieberman on Face The Nation says "our enemies will test the new president early. Remember that the truck bombing of the World Trade Center happened in the first year of the Clinton administration. 9/11 happened in the first year of the Bush administration." This sounds more like a coincidence to me than a deliberate strategy. If congress had repealed the 22nd amendment and Bill Clinton had won a third term in 2000 (which he surely could have done) then would al-Qaeda really have abandoned its plans?

But if you think Lieberman's right about this, then it's not really clear what follows. If terrorist attack frequency is a function of the efficacy of counter-terrorism policies, then clearly you want to pick a president who has good counter-terrorism policies. I say that's Obama, Lieberman says that's McCain and then we have the argument. But if Lieberman's right and an attack is just going to happen one way or another because the enemy wants to "test" the new president, then what's supposed to determine our choice? What counts as passing the test? I guess Lieberman wants to imply that we haven't been attacked again (except, of course, for the thousands of Americans who've died in Iraq) because Bush passed the test of 9/11, but do we really think al-Qaeda works this way? They're just kind of probing us, testing, checking us out, and then giving up their efforts?

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It doesn't make sense and it's a big deal. I'm sure there's political calculation here and a view that talking about terrorism, no matter how nonsensically, helps conservative candidates. But there's also a very real underlying incoherence in the conservative conception of how to think about the al-Qaeda phenomenon, an unwillingness to understand efforts to destroy the enemy and secure the United States as a practical problem that requires actual knowledge and reasonably crafted policies. Instead, they prefer to see it as a kind of grown-up version of a staring contest or a power ring battle.

But the fundamental thing to recall about al-Qaeda is that they're not in a position to "test" us. We are a giant country full of huge cities with a GDP of over $13 trillion, a population of around 300 million, nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers, tanks, etc. and allies that include such major countries as Japan, Britain, France, etc. They are a smallish band of maybe thousands with no heavy weapons whose allies include some tribal leaders in the Afghanistan-Pakistan border area. Horrible as 9/11 was, they can't seriously harm the United States except by baiting us into doing incredibly stupid things like responding to fear of their pinpricks by resolving to endlessly prolong a wasteful and pointless military engagement on the other side of the world.

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Comments (61)

You, sir, have clearly not learned the lessons of 9/11/!

Maybe Joe is saying Bush should remain in office forever, and then we'll never be attacked again?

This really illustrates the schizophrenia in the thinking of people like Joe Lieberman. Al Qaeda is a supposedly all-powerful group who is bent on unrelenting American destruction-- but in fact will relent all the time and only attack us to send a message, or something. When Cheney said that the fear is that if we elect a Democrat, they'll attack us again, he was doing the same dance. The terrorists will stop at nothing to see us destroyed, but they'll really only get geared up if we elect a liberal.

What makes you think Congress can repeal constitutional amendments?

Talking to conservatives about this stuff is really annoying. They are always coming back with the refrain: "But you don't understand! These people have a crazy ideology and they really want to kill us!"

As if this is the first time in the history of the world that such a phenomenon has been encountered. And as if their capacity was irrelevant. Its only when you personally encounter these people and come to understand their naivete and cluelessness that you can make sense of why they voted for Bush in 2004.

Actually, Matt; Hank Porter is actually on to something: the "lesson of 9/11" which seems to have been inculcated in our political ruling-class is that any attack which results in the loss of American lives (in America) - no matter how much of a "pinprick" it may actually be - is an absolutely unacceptable concession, and an event which must be met with the strongest and most violent response possible (preferably military). Even if said response involves insanely disproportionate reactions, or counterproductive neo-imperialistic adventurism: the bedrock principle that American lives are worth more than other peoples' must be upheld at all costs.

And any US politician that might even think about gainsaying this dictum will be looking at a swift trip into retirement.

Horrible as 9/11 was, [AQ] can't seriously harm the United States except by baiting us into doing incredibly stupid things

That strategy worked brilliantly well on the Pinhead of the Century (Jr Bush), so Liberman is only half wrong. It's their only shot, after all.

"What makes you think Congress can repeal constitutional amendments?"

No kidding. Matt, I know that proof-reading can suffer in the sometimes frenetic pace that blogging demands, but c'mon--you went to Harvard, dude. If you blog about politics and policy, especially at the national level, some stuff you need to get right. The general public's knowledge of its own government is bad enough without smart people contributing to the swamp of ignorance.

For the record--Congress can propose an amendment to the Constitution. The resolution would need to be approved by two-thirds of both the House and Senate. Then--usually within seven years--the proposed amendment would need to be ratified by three-quarters of the states.

the "lesson of 9/11" which seems to have been inculcated in our political ruling-class is that any attack which results in the loss of American lives (in America) - no matter how much of a "pinprick" it may actually be - is an absolutely unacceptable concession, and an event which must be met with the strongest and most violent response possible (preferably military)

Who did we bomb in retaliation for the anthrax attacks? I forget.

If you look at the attack of the USS Cole (October 2000), which there was no response for due to transitioning administrations/elections/lack of evidence pre-inauguration, the 9/11 attacks (which you could theoretically argue was at least somewhat aided by the confusion/willful ignorance that occurred in the transition of administrations), the Madrid bombings, and the Glasgow attack last year (days after Brown took office), it's clear that AQ and friends do use the political calendar when planning attacks.

Further, while I hate to concede Lieberman is right, he does (somewhat) have a point. The time it takes for cabinet level and below appointees to be approved by Congress provides a three month or so "window of opportunity" where the new guys aren't fully in place, making a response at least somewhat more difficult. However, its obvious Lieberman is making a political point (which I agree it's not exactly clear what point exactly he is trying to make). Were he to point out the inherent security gaps of transitioning administrations and then propose a solution, that would be one thing. Clearly that is not what he is doing...

Lieberman may be right in one way. Obviously, Bush and al qaeda's leadership realized they needed each other in the winter of 2001. Osama bin Laden, to survive and prosper, refrained from attacking the U.S. on its soil, and Bush refrained from either capturing him or, after an initial stint of capturing al qaeda's people, forcing the issue with a Pakistan government that had been closely allied, via ISI, with al qaeda. The result was excellent for both parties. Bush got the war he wanted and was re-elected, while al qaeda settled for the only power it really will ever have, being a transnational organization - the ability to operate trhough other groups.

The NYT has a story about the White House inability to hit on a plan to attack al qaeda in 2006 through now that is precious, built on the assumption that Bush would want to destroy the one thing he has going for him. He must recognize a twin in Osama b. L. - another rich boy from a prominent family who never was very good at the business end, and found his calling by embracing a fundamentalist, extreme version of religion and politics.

With Bush, their protector, leaving office, al qaeda might well feel endangered. Perhaps we should ask how we got to this point.

Bin Laden couldn't have dreamed that he could goad Bush into doing something so stupid as invading Iraq. In one sense, Bin Laden has won the first round against Bush.

Certainly the terrorists cannot defeat us militarily; the only way they win is if they can truly "terrorize" us and get us to do dumb things out of fear and anger. That's exactly what Bush did.

The terrorists win if they get us to become like them; that's what Bush has done with authorizing torture, an elective war, etc.

On top of that, we now know that Al Qaeda is growing stronger in Afghanistan/Pakistan thanks to Bush and McCain taking our attention away from there with their futile venture in Iraq.

McCain represents a danger to our country in that he would be weak on our real enemies, just like Bush has been. Moreover, he would be easily tricked into stupid reactions, just like Bush has been.

By the way... is that Sinestro?

Who did we bomb in retaliation for the anthrax attacks? I forget.

Iraq, according to many Fox News guests, talkradio hosts, and others (see, e.g., Laurie Mylroie).

You, sir, have clearly not learned the lessons of 9/11/! ...Posted by Hank Porter

Hank, you have clearly not learned the lessons of post-9/11. Here's a simple question for you. Which has killed more Americans; 9/11 or the Iraq War and the ancillary damage caused by not winning in Afghanistan? (We just had the highest monthly casualties in Afghanistan since the war was started in 2001.) Don't forget dead contractors too, as well as dead soldiers. And let's toss in the tens of thousands of injured soldiers while we're at it. And the horrible rates of PTSD. And that doesn't even count the vast numbers of Iraqi civilian killed, wounded, and displaced.

The lessons of 9/11 are that we have to be vigilant and smart. Instead, the right wingnuts are paranoid and lash out blindly, without plans and without any toehold in reality. The fight between western democracies and radical Islam is not a military contest, but the right STILL hasn't figured that out. Which is, of course, why AQ and the Taliban have been able to rebuild.

As Ron White so eloquently put it, "you can't fix stupid."

I guess Lieberman wants to imply that we haven't been attacked again (except, of course, for the thousands of Americans who've died in Iraq)...

Anthrax, anyone?

Seriously Matt, the MSM does not need your help perpetuating the myth that Commander Codpiece has bravely insulated America from all nefarious evil-doers since 9/11/2001.

Dear American Voters, reporters, media. professionals, political parties, and presidential Nominees,
Subject: Presidential Temperament

Please talk about and "Compare And Contrast" the " Presidential Temperament" of our Presidential presumptive nominees. I will also request and plead to the nominees themselves [ Hon. Senator McCain and Obama ].
Our nation has been applying this yard and stick tor the appointments and confirmation process of our Supreme Court Justices nominees.
Our Greatgrand Nation Foundations are as under:
Family, friends, fellows, faith, funds, fun, with fairness & freedom And without fear, favor, and failure.
It will be disgrace and shameful if the nominees and media will not look into this critical and crucial aspect under current challenging times and circumstances within our country and all around the Globe.

America wake up and the discuss the " Presidential Temperament" of our presumptive presidential nominee's [ Hon. Senator McCain and Obama].

Yours sincerely,
COL. A.M.Khajawall [Ret].
Disabled American Veteran
Forensic psychiatrist, Las Vegas, Nevada.


9/11 happened in the first year of the Bush administration

So did the anthrax attacks, which President Bush called “a second wave of terrorist attacks upon our country.” As with the 9/11 attacks, he failed to prevent the attacks and has failed to punish the people behind them.

So did the anthrax attacks, which President Bush called “a second wave of terrorist attacks upon our country.” As with the 9/11 attacks, he failed to prevent the attacks and has failed to punish the people behind them.

Yeah, but at least he managed to foul up the investigation so badly that the gov't had to pay a $5.8 million settlement to a scientist whose life they ruined. Heckuva' job!

But hey, at least we NEVER tortured innocent people.

Further, while I hate to concede Lieberman is right, he does (somewhat) have a point.

Lieberman may be half right - but of course it's the crucially wrong half. Give Joe credit for coming up with the brilliantly insightful observation that AQ relies on political terror as a means of attaining their goals.

I wonder if this "testing the new president" meme isn't left over from the cold war, when Kruschev was seen as "testing" the mettle of the "young, inexperienced" Kennedy with the USSR's adventures in Cuba, and Kennedy was subsequently seen as having "passed" the test with his response.

In that case the USSR might have had reason to "test" its power against that of the United States; I don't see any comparable motive on the part of Al Qaeda et al.

Also: Sinestro is way evil.

I wonder if this "testing the new president" meme isn't left over from the cold war,

Of course it is. The entire Neocon 'philosophy' is a leftover from the Cold War.

If they will attack regardless of who the president is, this kind of makes the security issues far less relevant (why, we could elect Jay Leno and still get attacked, so let's look at the other issues).

I disagree with the notion a small but determined group of terrorists is unable to inflict crippling damage because of our size, wealth and commanding military presence. The result of 9/11 has been at least indirectly the squandering of nearly a trillion dollars that would certainly have been much better spent on endless other priorities. Say a major passenger jet with 400 people aboard blew up on a runway. Wouldn't the blow to our tentative notion of travel security devastate that industry? We're in a very precarious economic situation right now. The dollar has tanked, oil is at record highs, housing is in the toilet and many individuals and businesses are bankrupt or close to filing. I can envision a well planned cataclysmic event greatly accelerating our tailspin. Imagine a large dirty bomb rendering Wall Street and the entire adjacent finacial district unusable for years to come, along with tens of thousands poisoned workers lost from those industries. Al Qaida doesn't have to match our military, nor do they have to take on 300 million citizens. Trite clichés annoy, yet isn't a chain truly no stronger than its weakest link? We've engaged in a 7 year freakout over 9/11, trashing the Constitution and bankrupting the treasury. I think another blow by Al Qaida could wreck even greater harm.

Lieberman should know, he attends the weekly Al Queda conference call.

Steve duncan, I think you are totally right. Al qaeda's blow was an amazing tactical move - it is hard to calculate how many trillion dollars the U.S. spent since 1945 to prevent a surprise attack by missile or airplane on the continental U.S. - and here 19 men do it for less than the price of the expense account lunches for a defense contractor meetings with Air Force generals to come up with another incredibly useless line of top flight weaponry.

However, I think it is a mistake to think that, because al qaeda uses suicide bombers, its leadership is thus invested in a suicidal strategy. I think they've proven that they have a finely calibrated sense of how far to push things. They have showed, over the years, that they can easily organize associates to attack in a number of countries. The U.S. would not be hard to attack again, if that was the plan. I presume that they haven't attacked the U.S. again not because Bush has been incredibly efficient in guarding the "homeland", but because such an attack would give Bush no leeway - he'd have to get serious about destroying the al qaeda leadership. And that would be bad for business. Bush would no longer have the luxury of having a terrorist group hanging around so that the GOP and MSM could gin up the fright machine. Of course, the MSM would go into automatic attack mode if a terror attack happened under Obama's watch. The old geezers on the WAPO op ed page would automatically get woodies at that point.

Otherwise, Americans seem pretty content with the status quo. Osama bin Laden has been assimilated into the pop culture as just another serial killer mascot, a little cuter than Charles Manson. Americans always love a survivor, and Osama b. L. has definitely survived the war on terror reality show with flying colors and a lot of class. In fact, there's a huge moneymaking opportunity out there for his retirement - he can endorse some computer game about 9/11 that would be fun fun fun for the whole family to play, and rake in a residual for him.

That polls show Americans believe that the GOP is "tougher" on terrorism is one of those factoids - like the majority belief that evolution is a hoax - that does make me wonder how the U.S. ever got to be a superpower. And it is a certain pointer to how America will inevitably lose that status.

Funny story - the guy speaking at my commencement ceremony actually gave us his personal guarantee that terrorists would try to attack either the US or our allies once the new president took office. You know what they say in the news business - twice is a coincidence, three's a trend. What I'm wondering, is if he's wrong, do I get my tuition back?

But the fundamental thing to recall about al-Qaeda is that they're not in a position to "test" us. We are a giant country full of huge cities with a GDP of over $13 trillion, a population of around 300 million, nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers, tanks, etc. and allies that include such major countries as Japan, Britain, France, etc. They are a smallish band of maybe thousands with no heavy weapons whose allies include some tribal leaders in the Afghanistan-Pakistan border area. Horrible as 9/11 was, they can't seriously harm the United States except by baiting us into doing incredibly stupid things like responding to fear of their pinpricks by resolving to endlessly prolong a wasteful and pointless military engagement on the other side of the world.

Er, a mere 20 of them destroyed two of the largest and most important buildings in our financial system, part of our national military headquarters, and came close to inflicting severe damage on the buildings housing our national congress or executive. They inflicted enormous damage on our national air transportation system, sending many of our airlines close to bankruptcy, and costing our national economy billions of dollars. Probably tens if not hundreds of billions. If they managed to successfully attack one of our cities with even a small radiological, chemical or biological weapon, the adverse effect on our economy and lifestyle would be enormous. Even just a few small bombs in the New York subway could have a crippling effect on the operation of our largest and most important city. The primary harm from terrorism is not the direct physical damage of an attack, but the consequential damage from instilling fear and anxiety in the population.

That polls show Americans believe that the GOP is "tougher" on terrorism is one of those factoids - like the majority belief that evolution is a hoax - that does make me wonder how the U.S. ever got to be a superpower. And it is a certain pointer to how America will inevitably lose that status.

It is? Well, do let us know when that "inevitable" day arrives. It doesn't seem to be anywhere on the horizon. We're by far the most powerful country in the world economically, militarily, culturally, politically and scientifically. Our only serious rival for superpower status during the past half century disintegrated almost twenty years ago.

We're by far the most powerful country in the world economically, militarily, culturally, politically and scientifically. Our only serious rival for superpower status during the past half century disintegrated almost twenty years ago.

I know, it's great! Rome will never fall!

tomemos,

Will that be your final strawman for today, or should I expect more?

The primary harm from terrorism is not the direct physical damage of an attack, but the consequential damage from instilling fear and anxiety in the population.

Mixner, you have restated MY's point. The power of determined terrorists can only be finally limited by what WE do in response. The Bush/McCain/Lieberman approach is to STOKE FEAR AND ANXIETY.

Let me make this simple for you.

- International terrorists want to highten fear and anxiety in the American People.

- The policy of the 'Administration' and the Party Line of the Republican party? To highten fear and anxiety in the American People.

Check.

- al Queda hoped, with 9/11, to draw us into an impossible, demoralizing and costly land war in the Muslim world, thereby bleeding us of money and blood, and creating much more hatred for the US, as well as more terrorists.

-George Bush and Dick Cheney in fact lured the country into an impossible, demoralizing and costly land war in the very heart of the Muslim world, bleeding us of vast sums of money and blood, as well as making us more reviled than ever not only in the Muslim world, but in MOST of the world, and, incidently, creating a new incubator-country for terror. (The genius of the GOP approach - beyond what bin Laden himself could've hoped for - is that we focused not on central Asia, but on Iraq!).

Can you tease out the parallels here?

Mixner, you have restated MY's point. The power of determined terrorists can only be finally limited by what WE do in response. .... [stock anti-Bush diatribe deleted]

Well, if you think you can wave a magic wand and prevent people from becoming anxious and fearful when bombs are going off around them, good luck.

Well, if you think you can wave a magic wand and prevent people from becoming anxious and fearful when bombs are going off around them, good luck.

"'Well, if you think we can wave a magic wand and prevent people from wanting to smoke cigarettes, good luck,' said the head of advertising for Philip Morris."

joe lieberman wants to let al qaeda decide who our next president is. if we're supposed to decide based on what their reaction will be, then it's the same difference: let osama bin laden decide. just shows that incredible depths of depravity lieberman is capable of these days.

Wonder how those Brits fared in London in the early 40s...

Or, you know, anyone else that has suffered an immediate tragic loss of life. Most of the economy problems were due to the weird psycho-hoodoo that rules Wall Street.

Well, if you think you can wave a magic wand blahblahblah

Well, if your child is anxious is anxious and fearful, you do two things: remove the cause of the fear as best you can and tell it to stay calm and collected. Needless to say the Bush has done neither, case in point for the former: McCain and the whole national security angle, for the latter port security and Pakistan.

It is? Well, do let us know when that "inevitable" day arrives. It doesn't seem to be anywhere on the horizon. We're by far the most powerful country in the world economically, militarily, culturally, politically and scientifically.

So said the French in 1812, the British in 1914.....

Well, if you think you can wave a magic wand and prevent people from becoming anxious and fearful when bombs are going off around them, good luck.

Well, while you can't prevent anxiety and fear at the exact moment when the bombs go off, you can, through qualities such as "fortitude" and "common sense", prevent people from using that anxiety and fear as an excuse to behave like crazy jackasses for years afterwards. The British, for example, had lots of IRA bombs go off around them in London in the 1970s, but they didn't run off and invade Portugal in response.

So said the French in 1812, the British in 1914.....

Well, someone might have said it, but it wasn't true.

But don't let mere facts get in the way of your ideology. You never have before.

But don't let mere facts get in the way of your ideology. You never have before.

One of the funniest things about the past eight years has been the way people like Mixner, who've merrily gone about creating many of the greatest catastrophes in America's history through their spectacular ignorance and foolishness, still adopt a tone of sneering contempt toward everyone else.

It's hilarious to witness. You would think they might learn from experience, but apparently it's impossible for them.

Well, while you can't prevent anxiety and fear at the exact moment when the bombs go off, you can, through qualities such as "fortitude" and "common sense", prevent people from using that anxiety and fear as an excuse to behave like crazy jackasses for years afterwards.

You've completely missed the point, probably because you are incapable of thinking about any political issue without filtering it through your pathological hatred of Bush and the GOP. Whether or not people behave like "crazy jackasses" in response to terrorist attacks, the effects of the fear and anxiety such attacks produce are far more harmful than any direct physical harm. Our air transportation system wasn't seriously damaged by 9/11 because of the loss of 4 planes, but because the manner in which that loss occurred made people afraid to fly. If terrorists explode a couple of bombs in a couple of our major cities, the consequences for our economy and lifestyle will probably be very bad indeed, and all your ranting about Bush and the GOP isn't going to change that.

The British, for example, had lots of IRA bombs go off around them in London in the 1970s, but they didn't run off and invade Portugal in response.

Thank you for that utterly irrelevant piece of information. True, the British didn't invade portugal. They did, hoeever, take some rather draconian actions in Northern Ireland.

You've completely missed the point, probably because you are incapable of thinking about any political issue without filtering it through your pathological hatred of Bush and the GOP....Thank you for that utterly irrelevant piece of information...

As I say, hilarious! It's like watching someone who's just poured buckets of shit all over himself deliver long, condescending lectures about personal hygiene.

Well, if you think you can wave a magic wand and prevent people from becoming anxious and fearful when bombs are going off around them, good luck.

Well, while you can't prevent anxiety and fear at the exact moment when the bombs go off, you can, through qualities such as "fortitude" and "common sense", prevent people from using that anxiety and fear as an excuse to behave like crazy jackasses for years afterwards. The British, for example, had lots of IRA bombs go off around them in London in the 1970s, but they didn't run off and invade Portugal in response.

True, the British didn't invade portugal. They did, hoeever, take some rather draconian actions in Northern Ireland.

That is exactly my point. They went after the people who made the bombs -- the IRA -- rather than the people who didn't. Once again you are in complete agreement with me.

Stefan, shhh. The man with the shit all over him is explaining to us what morons we are for not following his "Pour Shit On Yourself" scheme for improved cleanliness.

That is exactly my point. They went after the people who made the bombs -- the IRA -- rather than the people who didn't.

I suspect a lot of people in Northern Ireland who didn't make the bombs might strongly disagree with you.

In any case, this is all irrelevant to the point that the primary harm from terrorism is indirect and psychological. Matthew's claim that al qaeda can't really harm us because "we are a giant country full of huge cities with a GDP of over $13 trillion, a population of around 300 million, nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers, tanks, etc." betrays a basic misunderstanding of the nature of terrorism.

Mixner, you're basically arguing against yourself at this point and don't even know it.

If El Salvador started a war with us tomorrow and we responded by laying waste to their entire country and nuking the capitol, it would be an objective fact that El Salvador lost that war. The facts on the ground meant we won WII. However, short of al-Qaida somehow getting their hands on enough suitcase nukes (the technology for which doesn't even really exist yet) and blowing up every American city at once, they can't objectively beat us. We can only beat ourselves.

However, it is not inevitable that we do so, especially if we have leaders who show actual leadership instead of shoveling us bullshit. If FDR was stupid enough to say that Pearl Harbor was in part planned by Moscow, Congress would likely have caved into pressure by December 10th to declare war on the USSR in addition to Japan. That would have been suicidal, but not inevitable. If Bush had been intelligent and mature enough to focus on al-Qaida in Afghanistan and decide not to divide us for GOP political gain, the American public would likely have responded to 9/11 in a calmer manner. He chose not to. The public in part knows how to act in such an occurrence by receiving input and guidance from the sitting president. Bush simply failed that test. Deal with it.

"I suspect a lot of people in Northern Ireland who didn't make the bombs might strongly disagree with you."

Do you even have a point? Should the UK have just thrown up its hands and not responded to the IRA, which I doubt you would have wanted? Thatcher had an IRA bomb go off under her own bed, yet she didn't do something stupid like invade Portugal and politicize such a stupid invasion for electoral gain.

I suspect a lot of people in Northern Ireland who didn't make the bombs might strongly disagree with you.

And I suspect a lot of people in Iraq didn't plan the attack on the World Trade Center, but that didn't stop us from attacking and killing them.

Stefan, shhh. The man with the shit all over him is explaining to us what morons we are for not following his "Pour Shit On Yourself" scheme for improved cleanliness.

I know, but god help me, I love poking that crazy and watching him dance....

I suspect a lot of people in Northern Ireland who didn't make the bombs might strongly disagree with you.

And I suspect a lot of people in Iraq didn't plan the attack on the World Trade Center, but that didn't stop us from attacking and killing them.

Stefan, shhh. The man with the shit all over him is explaining to us what morons we are for not following his "Pour Shit On Yourself" scheme for improved cleanliness.

I know, but god help me, I love poking that crazy and watching him dance....

And I suspect a lot of people in Iraq didn't plan the attack on the World Trade Center, but that didn't stop us from attacking and killing them.

Another utter nonsequitur. Whatever connection you think there is between Iraq and 9/11, the British government did engage in harsh measures in response to IRA terrorist attacks on Britain, measures that are widely believed to have inflicted serious harm on innocent people and to have violated basic civil and human rights. Ditto for Israel's response to palestinian suicide bombings. Ditto for France's response to Algerian terrorism. Ditto for pretty much all responses to terrorism.

Why do you people engage this Mixner troll?

His whole M.O. is to parse words like Bill Clinton and make assertional arguments.

It's a total waste of time to engage this fool.

As for whether Al Qaeda could "objectively beat us", that is a meaningless question. If Al Qaeda had the proper terrorist strategy and tactics - and the wherewithal in terms of men and money and equipment (which isn't that much) - to employ them, they COULD seriously damage the US economy and infrastructure and reduce the US population to being afraid to leave their homes with National Guard troops on every street corner.

And of course, they would be helped mightily by the moron US population reacting in that way instead of reacting rationally.

However, they DO NOT have that strategy, or tactics, or the men and material to pull them off. That's been made clear throughout their entire existence. 9/11 was a fluke which they only managed to pull off due to either 1) a "perfect storm" of utter incompetence on the part of every system set up to prevent such a thing, or 2) some inside assistance that allowed them to pull it off. And you don't have to be a "9/11 Truther" to believe the latter is quite feasible.

You can make your own decision which situation 9/11 actually was. But the idea that Al Qaeda IS actually going to do severe damage to the US absent an irrational overreaction to Al Qaeda operations here is nonsense.

If the US had simply ignored 9/11 as "just another terrorist incident", and NOT invaded Iraq OR Afghanistan, the end result would have been probably a million more people alive, including 3,000 US troops, plus the US would be ahead by several trillion dollars, plus two nations would be still intact instead of total basket cases.

Comparing any need to deal with the deaths of 3,000 US citizens to that actual outcome is just brain dead. Unless, of course, you're a racist who assumes that 3,000 US citizens are worth more than a million citizens of any other country.

Yeah, it took me a while to realize that Mixner was just John Cleese from the Argument Sketch taking his break.

"Look, you just contradicted me."
"I did not."
"Oh you did!!
"No, no, no."
"Oh, this is futile!"
"No it isn't."

Well, if you think you can wave a magic wand and prevent people from becoming anxious and fearful when bombs are going off around them, good luck.

Yes, Mixner, passivity and helplessness are what are called for in the face of international terror. Also essential is a total loss of nerve, resulting in an inability to tell yourself apart from your enemy, and a remarkably squalid opportunism. So Churchillian.

[stock anti-Bush diatribe deleted]

Unfortunately, my diatribe is not nearly 'stock' enough yet - would that it were. I also notice that it was deleted but not refuted.

Why do you people engage this Mixner troll?

In fairness to them, it's hard not to respond to someone covered in shit screaming at you about how stupid and smelly you are.

Yes, Mixner, passivity and helplessness are what are called for in the face of international terror.

That seems to be what you're advocating.

Unfortunately, my diatribe is not nearly 'stock' enough yet - would that it were. I also notice that it was deleted but not refuted.

I generally don't try to refute creationists either. Their beliefs, like yours here, are a matter of faith and emotion, not reason.

Their beliefs, like yours here, are a matter of faith and emotion, not reason.

And just when you think he's run out of shit to pour on himself, he produces another nine buckets!

That's a lot of shit.

Well, his handle is "Mixner" - which presumably means he mixes shit for a living.

Sort of like a concrete mixer truck - only designed for shit.

Mixner at this point has lost the argument against himself. Mixner is dead, long live Mixner!

It's nothing personal against Mixner of course. He has a terrible position to defend. Most political issues have more grey in them, but this incredible, world-historical failure on the part of our government is just nauseatingly stark. It's actually worse, in a way, than Chamberlain's appeasment of Hitler, which the Right moronically (and ahistorically) keeps bringing up. Chamberlain was certainly wrong, of course, but, aside from that being a completely different kind of situation, it must also be remembered that he had fewer options than did our government in 2001 - much less military, financial and geopolitical strength, among other problems. Bush and Cheney's error, in terms of opportunity costs, dwarfs what Chamberlain did (there was no guarrantee that England's declaring war on Germany at that point would've checked Hitler decisively anyway). Chamberlain was stil quite wrong, but he had lots of constraints too. The US, on the other hand, had about as close as it gets to freedom of action after 9/11, and after Afghanistan, chose utterly wrongly again and again. That is truly rare.

Tme and again, whatever the American Right accuses the Center (what we call the 'left') of is generally what they themselves are guilty of. Weakness, disloyalty (putting Party above country), foolishness, loss of nerve, cynicism, incompetence, corruption. Change the pronouns and it all makes sense. I don't believe in conspiracy theories which say that Bush/Cheney screwed everything up 'on purpose', or that Israel was 'behind it all' etc. etc. No, when you boil everything down, it was just the result of very bad character, a very evolved kind of stupidity, and awful judgement.

How long can people (like Mix) stay in denial about this? I guess we'll see.


Comments closed July 14, 2008.

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