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The Truth About Urban Schools

23 Jun 2008 11:41 am

Conversations about urbanism always eventually end up going in the direction of education policy. After all, absent better schools, the city will always be a place for poor people, very rich people, and young people rather than for the mainstream of American life. To that end, it's worth noting that a lot of people's ideas about the quality of urban schools are mistaken, as you can see from a look inside the results of the NAEP mathematics test as revealed in the Trial Urban District Assessment from 2005. First off, consider the number of eighth grader who rate as "below basic" (this is bad):

uncontrolled.png

That's your classic "big city, bad schools" chart with DC, New York, and Boston all doing far worse than the national average. Except it turns out that demographic factors have a huge influence on school achievement. Big city school systems tend to contain a higher-than-average number of poor kids, and poor kids tend to do worse than middle class kids, so cities wind up with bad test results. What if we restrict our sample and just look at how kids from economically struggling families, the ones eligible for federally subsidized school lunches, are doing?

grade8matheligibles.png

Here things look very different. Once we control for demographics, it turns out that New York and Boston don't have "failing inner city schools" at all -- on eighth grade math scores, their schools are actually doing a slightly better than average job of educating poor children. Their overall numbers are pulled down by their larger-than-average number of poor kids, but when you add appropriate controls their school system is doing fine. DC, by contrast, does have a challenging population, but also is doing a crappy job relative to the challenge.

Now of course things change a little bit if you look at 4th grade instead of 8th grade or reading instead of math, or middle class kids only instead of poor kids only, or the high end or the low end, but the basic pattern is pretty robust -- New York and especially Boston have average public school systems masked by difficult demographics, whereas DC has a shitty public school system whose badness is masked by clichés about bad big city schools. Here's 4th grade scores among lunch-eligible kids:

grade4matheligibles.png

And here on the flipside are the number of non-poor kids who did well on the test:

grade8mathineligibles.png

So to make a long story short, when talking about this issue it helps to be precise. All across the United States we have a problem with kids from disadvantaged backgrounds doing poorly in school. We also see kids from disadvantaged backgrounds overrepresented in urban school systems. Consequently, average results from city school systems tend to be below average. But when you use appropriate demographic controls you see that there's huge city-to-city variation and also a huge amount being determined by the demographics.

Some cities -- i.e., Washington DC -- really do have sub-standard school systems and would do well to implement reforms that made DCPS get results more like what you see in Boston or New York. But even if all cities did get the level of performance that you see from the best cities, there would still be a problem insofar as poor kids tend to do badly even in "good" schools in the United States.

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Comments (68)

purely anecdotal evidence, but our two kids jsut finished their careers in the supposedly dreadful San Francisco public schools, and had good schools, good teachers, and good experiences all the way through. And far better academics than what I got in the supposedly golden Montgomery County (MD) suburban schools.

Shorter Matt: Big city schools are pretty good, except DC.

It is irritating to hear the urbanization argument descend into "big city schools suck". Not all school are created equal. NYC schools are far superior to many small town rural schools, but that never seems to bother people when the education discussion comes up.

It would be interesting to examine why DCs schools are so bad compared to Boston and NY.

This is interesting. Thanks.

The flipside of this is that as wealthier families move back into certain urban neighborhoods, you will likely see people talking about improving schools in those neighborhoods without controlling for demographics.

Indeed, in my city there is one part of the center city school district (up through HS) which has a good reputation, and shockingly enough it is also the place most wealthy families end up. And I bet if you controlled for demographics, it would not be as much as a standout in terms of test scores, kids going to college/elite colleges, and so on.

[insert comment about Boston's superiority]

This is interesting. I'm sure we'll be hearing from Steve Sailer about this topic, so I might as well bring it up first: How does racial make-up factor into these results? Wash. DC is overwhelmingly black, Boston and NYC less so, so you should at least mention how this factors into the results.

The reason I bring this up, is that I believe that blacks (and perhaps other minorities) tend to do worse on these tests beyond what you can explain solely by socioeconomic status.

How do poor kids do in mixed-demographic schools? How much of the gap between poor and rich is due to their poorness (less enriching environment in first five years, parents helping less, whatever) and how much is due to poor kids going to worse schools than middle-class kids?

That is, when we see that schools with mostly-poor students have worse results than middle class schools, how much of that is attributable to the schools, and how much to the students?

MY, you haven't been paying attention. From what I have read the past several years, the groups we are supposed to be concerned about are 1) boys and 2) well off overachieving kids who are doing too well.

Can you forward this to your colleague Megan and every other voucher proponent? It's unfathomable to me that people don't see how selection error dominates the differences between private and public school-- whose pedagogical technique, I won't relent in saying, are functionally identical.

I'm sure we'll be hearing from Steve Sailer about this topic, so I might as well bring it up first: How does racial make-up factor into these results? Wash. DC is overwhelmingly black, Boston and NYC less so, so you should at least mention how this factors into the results.

Race can't be the full story. NYC schools are overwhelmingly non-white, something in excess of 85%, and while I can't readily find the numbers for Boston IINM the system is at least 70% non-white.

Matt is right to say that there is "a problem insofar as poor kids tend to do badly even in "good" schools in the United States." Perhaps we should pass a law seeking to hold even good schools accountable for the progress of kids in that demographic?

I would note that using the national average as a marker for whether a district is failing doesn't seem to me to be a good idea. "Failing" does not mean worse than average.

I don't know the first thing about DC, but could their schools' suckiness relative to Boston and NY be the result of the absence of state subsidized funding that Massachusetts and the state of New York provide?

Does this apply for schools in other regions of the country, as well? Your sample skews to the Northeast.

So you made the case that the city schools aren't failing poor kids any worse than any other school.

We need to see the numbers on how middle class kids fair in the urban school districts if you want to make this a case for middle class families to move back into the city.

Does this apply for schools in other regions of the country, as well? Your sample skews to the Northeast.

Unfortunately, there aren't that many districts including in the TUDA and some of them (i.e., Austin, TX) don't really qualify as "big cities." But Chicago and LA both have schools that are worse than NYC but better than DC, with Chicago better than LA.

Nevermind, I see it.

Very nice. But why restrict this to the east coast? Los Angeles (LAUSD) may present the best case study in the country of what has historically gone wrong with urban schools, and what we have (and haven't) figured out about how to fix those problems.

Really: they brought in a former governor just to run the schools. And he managed to turn around the elementary schools beautifully. Back when I was involved in what I think was the most comprehensive database around for CA schools, he was getting enormous (and very well-deserved) credit for that.

Middle and high schools, on the other hand, not so much. And while there are an enormous number of factors there, I think there's a decent chance that some stressors particular to urban environments have played a role in making those grades harder to improve (albeit a much smaller one than our ridiculously anachronistic approach to 5-12 pedagogy).

"I don't know the first thing about DC, but could their schools' suckiness relative to Boston and NY be the result of the absence of state subsidized funding that Massachusetts and the state of New York provide?"

No. DC schools have the highest level of per-pupil funding in the nation. NY and Jersey are 2nd and 3rd.

Thank you for posting this!

It cannot be repeated often enough: economic parity counts. I thing I would add is the term 'city' covers a lot of ground. There are 'good' and 'bad' schools (and supermarkets, and neighborhoods, and utility service, etc...) in every city. However, if a school system underperforms it is assumed that all schools in that system are equally bad rather than reflecting the proportion of poor folks to the middle and upper classes in the city.

People tend to treat cities and suburbs (of which I have been very guilty) as brands. Its hard to market higher density living to folks that naively equate cities with crime, crappy schools, etc...

Actually, I believe the city of Austin is bigger than the city of Boston or Washington.

"some of them (i.e., Austin, TX) don't really qualify as 'big cities.'"

Matt, Matt, Matt.

Boston population: 590,000
DC population: 588,000
Austin, TX population: 720,000

Now, it is true that Boston and DC have much bigger metro populations than Austin, but you are looking at city school districts -- and point of fact, Austin is a much bigger city than either.

Well, I'm not really sure Austin is relevant to this discussion b/c I doubt those schools are actually filled with poor or minority kids. Not district-wide anyhow.

Thanks for addressing this -- as someone who doesn't live in KC proper primarily due to the school system (which I almost guarantee makes DC's look like Harvard) it's nice to see this addressed.

I'm not a stats wiz by any means, but comparing urban schools with urban schools seems to miss the point, doesn't it?

Wouldn't it be better to compare results on a more-equal basis -- perhaps lunch-eligible kids in suburban schools to lunch-eligible kids in urban schools? Wouldn't that be a more apples-to-apples comparison as to the effectiveness of different districts?

Or am I missing something?

@FreddieMac
Shorter Matt: Big city schools are pretty good, except DC.
Yeah, except replace "good" with "average"

@Freddie
Point taken. But why not let the parents decide?

General question: when people talk about "cities" or "urban areas," what does this mean? SMSA (standard metropolitan statistical area) or its current equivalennt? But wouldn't this include population outside the city per se? Is Billings, Montana a city? Or Norwalk, CT? Port Arthur, Tx?

Likewise suburbs. Take Newton, Mass: wealthy, established 100+ years ago, multiple types of public transport: buses, commuter trains, extension of Boston subway system, etc. How comparable is this to a cluster of new malls and sub-divisions on the outskirts of Atlanta, Dallas or Irvine, CA?

I think that the very interesting analysis doesn't imply that parents choosing between the city and the suburbs should assume that school quality is similar. The problem is that NY and Boston metro area parents are choosing between NY and Boston schools and schools in the suburbs of NY and Boston.

They aren't chosing between Boston and rural Mississippi. Academic performance is far above the national average in the suburbs of New York, Boston and Washington. The comparison with those schools is what makes cities places for the very rich the poor and the young.

"I'm not really sure Austin is relevant to this discussion b/c I doubt those schools are actually filled with poor or minority kids"

According to the school district's website, its 22 percent "limited English" and 60 percent "low income" (presumably free lunch eligibility). As far as minority, they're over 50 percent Hispanic.

The problem with these kinds of plots of data, is that you still can't get the whole picture.

Simply put, there's far too many interacting and intercorrelated factors for this kind approach to really advance the argument. This is where I really wish we could start some of these arguments with a little layman's introduction to regression. I recall working with an old dataset on exactly this topic when teaching a statistics course. If you attempt to predict a students school performance, holding constant their specific family's demographics, increasing the percentage of underperforming students in a school is associated with lower student performance. Because the model has a large number of factors in it, you are assessing the independent contribution of percent of underperforming students while correcting for differences in amount/student funding, and lots of other factors. Interestingly, even correcting for many school related factors (teacher qualifications, student/teacher ratio) and community factors (local poverty, % single parent), increasing percentages of underperforming students is detrimental.

Now, the effect size of this is smallish, but it is negative. We can argue that some predictors were left out, or that there are sample flaws, but on an individual child level, the effects were fairly robust.

now, ask me for the citation? i looked through my notes but its been a while since i taught the class and i wasn't able to come up with it. it was a dataset from DoEd from the late 80s. Sorry I don't have more on this...

Things have tipping points. Too many bad students wreck a school, too many bad sales people wreck a company, etc.

The problem in too many urban areas is that the tipping point was reached a long time ago. There's a reason so many families with young kids leave (or never go to) urban districts - they can read the relative performance numbers of the surrounding suburbs vs. the city itself.


It is of course true that student characteristics are the key influence on academic achievement, rather than school quality. As long as your kid is safe there, there's nothing much wrong with attending an urban public school.

But it's not just poverty. North Dakota had close to the top NAEP scores in 2000, yet it was 42nd among the states in per-capita income.

Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000 (2005 data). At least, that's what they say in the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, and why would they lie?


Robert,

Yeah, but the demographics also tend to be way more favorable to good test scores than the national average in those suburbs. That is Matt's point--these comparisons aren't telling you much about school quality in the value-added sense, at least not until you control for things like the demographics of the student population.

Point taken. But why not let the parents decide?

For the same reason we don't let people decide to take their tax dollars that would be spent on the local fire department and spend it on a private fire-fighting service.

The comparison with those schools is what makes cities places for the very rich the poor and the young.

Which is the point of this thread. The comparisons made are based on faulty assumptions. Rich and middle class schools in the city are comparable to similar schools in the suburbs. Ditto poor city schools and poor rural schools. A suburban school system is usually a single district with a homogeneous population of middle and upper middle class students. Cities tend to have larger percentages of poor students in their school systems which skews the data unfairly. Comparisons between school systems by the numbers is not a very useful tool for parents.

Mark D, did you miss the big bar for the national average? That's kind of the point of the comparison.

The only graphic you need is the one that shows kids' test scores with at least one parent who gives a shit compared to those without. But you never see such a graphic. I wonder why.

The parent-who-gives-a-shit variable is the key. All the rest is playing the margins.

Just want to stress something brought up by Glockenspiel. I like that you look at data and play around with it and try to present things in a way that makes it intuitive.

But here you're allowing the attraction of the data backing up your priors to make up for a the need to make a robust argument. As Glockenspiel noted, there are lots of other factors at work here. It's helpful that fuller regressions run on DOEd data, which presumably has more information than you've presented, still indicate that increasing the level of poverty in a school has a negative effect on student preformance. It's very possible that a simple regression in this case would have other problems that might make this conclusion unsupportable, but in either case, be clear that that conclusion can NOT be drawn from what you presented.

To give a somewhat simplistic example:

What if the percentage of students who get free lunch who are outside a big city school district is quite small? Then you can not distinguish between level of poverty and a simple marker of being an urban school district. So you can't say that the problem is poverty and not urbanness. Given, it's clear here that DC sucks. But it is not legitimate, using solely the information you've posted here, to conclude that the problem is the level of poverty in a school, and not simply that the urban school systems are worse.

I agree with you that it's incredibly unlikely that the problem is, say, residential density within a school district, and not the level of poverty, which effects everything from funding levels to the ability to attract qualified/experienced teachers to parental participation to quality of diet. But I just want to point out that you shouldn't make invalid statistical arguments. Leave that to the right wing blogs :)

Take that ya haaaaahd-ons!

We gawt tha' Sauwx, tha' Pahhts, and tha' Celtics and now ah very own Boston Public School System is kickin' yaw asses!

Now alls we need is the Brooons and the Registry of Motah Vehicles to step up.

In response to GoodEpic, the problem here is that there's a limited quantity of data points to work with in order to get better analysis of the current situation. For the purpose of looking at big city school performance, there's nothing better to use than the NAEP TUDA but TUDA has a lot of problems including the fact that it's only conducted in a relatively small number of cities.

If we were ever to adopt a nationwide standardized testing system, then whatever other problems there might be with it we'd at least have a lot of data to analyze properly.

I want to second Beer Here. As a teacher it is obvious why some kids succeed and others fail--PARENTS. Putting all your egg problems in the school basket risks throwing the baby out with the bathwater, not to mention counting your chickens before they hatch!

It's interesting and encouraging that urban schools do a good job of educating kids from less-well off families, but if I were choosing where I wanted to send my kids, I'd be looking at which educational systems performed best in educating kids like mine.

Insofar as you want to attract (or keep) middle and upper-middle class families to the city, schools need to focus on doing well by kids from such families. I expect there's a trade-off between teaching children from poor families effectively and maximizing opportunities for middle and upper middle class children.

Also, a more useful comparison would be the one that's actually done by parents--the urban school system in the city where they live vs. the systems in the surrounding suburbs. Comparisons of particular urban areas with the national average aren't particularly meaningful, I don't think.

Matt says

"the problem here is that there's a limited quantity of data points to work with..."

I think that's why this question is better addressed by asking about the predictors of individual student performance. This allows you to have a very large sample and a (relatively) small number of predictors.

The beauty of these kinds of datasets (for teaching stats) is that the analyses can get complicated quickly depending on the question. If the question really is about school performance, then I still suspect that individual student performance is going be the much better and robust dependent variable rather than predicting such a large aggregate like "school performance" that is, in essence, just about student performance.

I think Matt brings up a interesting issue in general. Many assertions made about things like characteristics of "good schools" can actually be empirical questions and we should do more to treat them like such.

The LAUSD is an interesting case. There's an article in the LA Times today about how, thanks to several big school-building bond measures, the schools that were overcrowded in the 1990s now have plenty of empty spaces. They've been able to go off of year-round schools, build new campuses, improve facilities, etc.

Great, right? Well, aside from all the costs, the article doesn't get talk about student performance until nearly the very end, when it says that one tactic they're looking at to fill up the schools is to try to reduce the astronomical dropout rate. Wait a second --- weren't they telling us back in the 90s that the problems with the schools were class size, class size, and class size? How come they finally reduce class size and now they're only thinking about improving student performance sometime in the future, as a way to fill up empty space?

WTF?

Of course, the New York public school district is the largest in the country (over a million students, compared to around 60,000 students for both Boston and DC), and has a disproportionate number of poor kids, so I'd guess it exerts a pretty strong pull on the national average of poor kids. I wonder what fraction of free lunch students are in the New York public schools?

Your basic point still stands, I just wonder if comparing New York to the national average may be less than enlightening. I read elsewhere that LA and Chicago (the next biggest school districts, and all other districts are less than a third the size of NYC) both do worse than New York. I'd be curious to know what urban districts are above average (or above the median).

Mark D, did you miss the big bar for the national average? That's kind of the point of the comparison. --Posted by AlanC9

Last I checked, "national average vs. urban" is NOT the same as "suburban vs. urban." But thanks.

TW Andrews did a better job than me of explaining it:

... a more useful comparison would be the one that's actually done by parents--the urban school system in the city where they live vs. the systems in the surrounding suburbs. Comparisons of particular urban areas with the national average aren't particularly meaningful, I don't think.

I don't think that's not a slam on MY or anything -- as he noted, that type of data doesn't seem readily available. But it'd be a more useful comparison than just: "Here's some data that shows poor kids are giving urban schools a bad name."

I'd love for someone somewhere to create some sort of database where parents could compare not just test scores (which often do a poor job of truly showing if a school is successful or not, and for a variety of reasons) but also other data -- violence, % of kids who go to college, types of support networks available (counselors, mentoring programs, etc.), money spent on education vs. athletics, etc. etc. etc.

The NEA and others have some of that, but nothing relatively quick and easy to use.

So if anyone has some extra cash for a foundation and knows a bunch of statisticians looking for work, there's an idea for ya!

:-)

All across the United States we have a problem with kids from disadvantaged backgrounds doing poorly in school. We also see kids from disadvantaged backgrounds overrepresented in urban school systems. Consequently, average results from city school systems tend to be below average. But when you use appropriate demographic controls you see that there's huge city-to-city variation and also a huge amount being determined by the demographics.

NO, after 40 years of lumping "minority, disadvantaged" kids together then liberals wondering how the heck Washington, DC kids with the highest per pupil spending in the nation are outperformed by "other disadvantaged minorities" with a background of horrific (compared to DC residents) poverty and in schools where funding is 1/4th to 1/5th that of DC....the whole metric of a generic "minority, disadvantaged" student descriptor appears worthless.

Instead, we should abandon that long-disproven 60s liberal belief and become more sophisticated in learning what students are "at risk" of being poor performers based on family culture, attitude, IQ from "whatever" ethnic group they belong to, "whatever" their parent(s) self-earned or government welfare. Abandon the 60s belief that all children will perform equally if only enough money is given to educrats. And for the students that do fall into "at risk" determine what is reasonable attainment and salvage the ones that can be salvaged, while steering the irredeemably stupid, lazy, bad attitude ones into a career path where they are less likely to end up as parasites or in jail. End the ideology that schools are capable of magically capable of making the stupid, lazy, bad attitude from a dysfnctional culture kids perform equally with smart, motivated, excellent attitude kids.
Even those coming from minority groups with backgrounds overseas tremendously more disadvantaged than a significant fraction of native inner city students.

Few would question the likelihood that if we were hypothetically able to get 100 starving N Korean kids, 100 war-ravaged Balkan kids who missed years of schooling, 100 Indian kids out of dire poverty, 100 Mexican illegal's kids, 100 poor African immigrant kids, 100 Somali Muslim refugees from a war zone, 100 3rd-Gen hispanic-Americans from East LA, 100 native blacks, 100 native whites ---we would have wildly different percentages of each group that would be poor performers not able to transform into good students, what percentages started as good students, and which with just a little help would make it fine with mainly their personal effort, inherent ability, and parental and community backing.

Unfortunately, for certain people's esteem, historical results suggest that certain "disadvantaged minority groups" will outperform whites, whites will be very close in performance, hispanics will do less well, and native blacks will bring up the rear (with even that, some fine native black performers that will have excellent futures).

Other nations have more realistic educational systems that recognize investing in the gifted and motivated offers the best return for educational investment by taxpayers...not trying to drag a dumb, lazy rockhead through a CP program by lying to him or her and telling them they could easily be a lawyer or nuclear physicist. Other nations don't squander resources like Americans do on the bottom ranks - but instead try to get them trades and positions that are semi-skilled, but offer a better deal than crime, unwed welfare motherhood, the dole - oportunity for improvement, promotion, more money with seniority, and most importantly, more dignity.

One interest result from the 2007 federal NAEP test on reading is that Washington D.C.'s white public school students absolutely crush white students in every single one of the 50 states. The difference between DC's white public school students and the highest ranking state, Massachusetts, is almost as big as the gap between the white kids in Massachusetts and the white kids in West Virginia, which has by far the worst white students in the country.

http://nationsreportcard.gov/reading_2007/r0005.asp?subtab_id=Tab_4&tab_id=tab1#chart

In contrast, among blacks, DC scores above only Wisconsin, which has a notoriously undermotivated black community attracted in large part by the generous welfare benefits offered by social democratically inclined Germans and Scandinavians.

Among Hispanics, DC does slightly better than the national average.

One interest result from the 2007 federal NAEP test on reading is that Washington D.C.'s white public school students absolutely crush white students in every single one of the 50 states.

It's true: I've met both white kids who go to DC public schools -- very bright kids.

In contrast, among blacks, DC scores above only Wisconsin, which has a notoriously undermotivated black community attracted in large part by the generous welfare benefits offered by social democratically inclined Germans and Scandinavians.

Also true: the data shows that Wisconsin blacks only average 2.3 Motivation Units (MU) per person. Compare that with 15.1 MU per person for Asian kids with glasses.

One interesting question that Matt's post about the awfulness of the DC school system raises is whether black children do worse in school systems more or less run by African-Americans, such as DC and Detroit, or in school systems more or less run by whites, as in NYC, Boston, and Chicago?

When black politicians get hold of a lucratively-financed institution like the DC school system, are they more likely to treat it like their piggy bank?

First off, consider the number of eighth grader who rate as "below basic" (this is bad):

As you can see from the chart, our children isn't learning...

Adam Villani writes:

"The LAUSD is an interesting case. There's an article in the LA Times today about how, thanks to several big school-building bond measures, the schools that were overcrowded in the 1990s now have plenty of empty spaces."

The reason LA schools were overcrowded in the 1990s, for which the LAUSD is spending $24 billion to dig out from under is the huge baby boom among Hispanics ignited by the 1986 illegal immigrant amnesty.

Demographers Laura E. Hill and Hans P. Johnson of the Public Policy Institute of California wrote:

“Between 1987 and 1991, total fertility rates for foreign-born Hispanics [in California] increased from 3.2 to 4.4 [expected babies per woman over her lifetime]. This dramatic rise was the primary force behind the overall increase in the state’s total fertility rate during this period. Were it not for the large increase in fertility among Hispanic immigrants, fertility rates in California would have increased very little between 1987 and 1991.

“Why did total fertility rates increase so dramatically for Hispanic immigrants? First, the composition of the Hispanic immigrant population in California changed as a result of the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) of 1986. In California alone, 1.6 million unauthorized immigrants applied for amnesty (legal immigrant status) under this act. The vast majority were young men, and many were agricultural workers who settled permanently in the United States. Previous research indicates that many of those granted amnesty were joined later by spouses and relatives in the United States... As a result, many young adult Hispanic women came to California during the late 1980s. We also know that unauthorized immigrants tend to have less education than other immigrants and that they are more likely to come from rural areas. Both characteristics are associated with high levels of fertility. As a result, changes in the composition of the Hispanic immigration population probably increased fertility rates.

“Another possible reason for the sudden increase in fertility rates for Hispanic immigrants is also related to IRCA. Because many of those granted amnesty and their spouses had been apart for some time, their reunion in California prompted a “catch-up” effect in the timing of births...”

So, when President McCain or President Obama signs "comprehensive immigration reform" (i.e., another amnesty), we're going to have another baby boom among mostly uneducated ex-illegal immigrants -- only this time it will be nationwide, rather than primarily confined to California, and it will be on a much larger scale.

Whites generally are ignorant about the differences among black communities across the nation.

For example, the highest imprisonment rate among blacks is found in Iowa, with high rates also being found in Minnesota and Wisconsin. This appears to stem from the generous welfare and lax eligibility requirements that these social democratic-oriented states offered, which attracted unmotivated blacks from other states.

In contrast, Texas blacks tend to do better than the national black average in education test scores and in staying out of jail.

Of course, the highest performing average black communities by states tend to be in states with very few blacks, and where most of them got there through the U.S. military: North Dakota, Hawaii, Alaska, and a few others.

Why don't you just come out and say that you think we should put them in camps?

I'm always amused by how Yglesias commenters feel that their ignorance makes them morally superior.

I'm always amused by the fact that, after writing hundreds of words about what you feel is the inherent stupidity and criminality of black people, you want us all to believe you don't have any personal animus towards these people who you have such enormously poor opinions of.

Gulp! My husband and I are locked in a battle on whether our kids should go to the DC public schools. He'll waive this info as the final proof he needs on why we need to either move to MD or get in gear for the annual private school fall "rush" in a few months....

Gulp! My husband and I are locked in a battle on whether our kids should go to the DC public schools. He'll waive this info as the final proof he needs on why we need to either move to MD or get in gear for the annual private school fall "rush" in a few months....

I happen to believe that facts are more useful for humanity than ignorance, lies, or wishful thinking. Clearly, however, many people disagree.

Race can't be the full story. NYC schools are overwhelmingly non-white, something in excess of 85%, and while I can't readily find the numbers for Boston IINM the system is at least 70% non-white.

Non-whites are a very diverse group of people. What matters is no the percentage of non-whites, but what groups those non-white consist of.


Still waiting for Matt to explain how, if the school systems are so good in this country, thirty percent of the electorate still supports George Bush.

In reality, all the schools suck and are producing morons.

Including Harvard.

In Richmond City (Virginia) which has many poor families, regardless to race, are also facing disparities because there are wealthy families that live in the city but send their kids to private schools or the city has provided them (wealthy) public schools with funding, opportunities, and teachers that are well qualified. My daughter attended an excellent high academic elementary school in the city. I think the principal is responsible for getting those teachers out that do not fully academically educate all students.

Re Richard Steven Hack

"In reality, all the schools suck and are producing morons.

Including Harvard."

1. The school that Mr. Hack attended must certainly suck as it produced an armed bank robber.

2. The Bronx School of Science certainly does not suck. It has produced 6 (Neil Tyson says 7) Nobel Prize winners in physics. I would be willing to make a substantial wager that no other secondary school in the world, public or private, has a comparable record.

Here's a useful chart for the comparisons you're making, using the most recent results (2007 TUDA Math):

http://nationsreportcard.gov/tuda_math_2007/m0004.asp?subtab_id=Tab_5&tab_id=tab1#chart

Any school that produced SLC proves my point right there.

Assuming he actually went to any school, of course.

It's always interesting to see how seldom other commenters manage to come up with data that contradict what Steve Sailer says.

It's always interesting to see how seldom other commenters manage to come up with data that contradict what Steve Sailer says.

It's always interesting to see how seldom other commenters manage to come up with data that contradict what Steve Sailer says.

While I'm willing to believe that some city school systems are more effective than others and that DC is worse than others, assuming that poor students in DC are just like poor students in NYC and Boston is misleading for a number of reasons.

Unfortunately, free and reduced lunch eligibility is a very blunt and imprecise way to measure poverty. People aren't poor or not poor - they are more or less poor. Poor students may be more poor in DC, poverty may be more concentrated in DC, or poverty may be more multi-generational in DC than other cities.

Eduwonkette makes a good and often ignored point. The free and reduced lunch cut off encompassed upwards of 40% of all students. Though it is probably more accurate to call them "less rich" rather than "poor" since the average income of this group is over $40k once you count all their non-cash benefits. Nonetheless a student at the bottom of this distribution is legitimately "poor" while one at the top is decidely middle-class.

Eduwonkette makes a good and often ignored point. The free and reduced lunch cut off encompassed upwards of 40% of all students. Though it is probably more accurate to call them "less rich" rather than "poor" since the average income of this group is over $40k once you count all their non-cash benefits. Nonetheless a student at the bottom of this distribution is legitimately "poor" while one at the top is decidely middle-class.


Comments closed July 07, 2008.

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