Shocking news that Tim Russert has died of a heart attack at the young age of 58.
« Request: Ambinder | Main | Rahm Has Ways of Making You Stick to the Talking Points »
Tim Russert
13 Jun 2008 04:11 pm
Comments (141)
Damn. That was the one non-Fox show where I could control the message.
I agree, laborlibert. This initial shock upset me much more than it probably should. I'm drinking Scotch tonight.
Yup me too. For all the criticism of gotcha journalism, I would rather watch him than any of the other Sunday types. I briefly met him once and he really was earthy, and funny, and warm. He was a great guy and it is tragic that this has happened.
Well, regardless what you thought of his techniques, he always came off as a nice guy and we viewers got to know him a lot more than we get to know a lot of other celebs.
i say good riddance.
he was the best example of the worst of journalism today.
we should not forget his role in helping get this war started.
after all, cheney went on his show because he knew that he would be able to "control" the message.
he was a fraud and a hypocrite and the world will be better off with him gone.
the only people who will miss him will be the republican politicians who knew they could go on his show and lie with impunity.
So now people feel the need to say what a great guy he was? Now I hope we can get someone that will ask real questions and not just gotcha's.
Sorry, but this has to be done and is fitting...
THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!!! FOR HILLARY!!!!
I assume David Gregory is next in line to ask Obama why he isn't serious about saving social security, supporting the troops and respecting the faith of the American people.
So sudden, so sad. My father will be 58 in a few months, and you just think of the possibility that this could happen to him, or to anyone, and never get a chance to say good-bye.
Yikes. Reading frankie d's post, suddenly I'm embarassed to be hinging out here. Aren't we supposed ot be better than that?
You're a class act, frankie d. And the world is so much better off with a shitbag like you?
Gosh, frankie d, I'm pretty cynical, but you're a dick. Who do you prefer?
I don't think he was a good journalist, but that's not a capital offense. Those of us unhappy about the state of journalism in this country today can find more constructive ways to express our feelings than dancing on his grave, figuratively (or literally, for that matter).
And of all the times for him to die. How terribly unfair that he couldn't see this election play out
58 isn't young for a heart attack at all- sort of prime heart attack age, really, especially when you're none too thin.
Oh my god - I think this is upsetting to me and others who might not have thought he was a brilliant journalist because he was such a fixture on TV news, and this is very sudden and shocking. You might say, "Well, people die every day - we can't get upset about all of them, so why him?" and I think it is reasonable to feel some kind of emotion when it's someone you see on TV on a regular basis. And I don't think it matters right now what any of us thought of him as a journalist - he's gone, and has left behind family and loved ones - I don't think the term "good riddance" is appropriate when anyone dies.
I don't think anyboy is that surprised when a 58 year old dies of a heart attack. I think MY was just saying it is a young age to die. Period.
shame on you frankie d and andruw. i hope you don't face hateful glee when something tragic happens to you. this is terribly sad news; he will be missed
Over 150,000 people die every day.
Isn't there an established connection between some kinds of heart-attacks and recent air travel? Or am I thinking of something else? He had just returned from Italy.
I don't think the term "good riddance" is appropriate when anyone dies.
Well, there are exceptions to this, but Russert wasn't one of them.
Cool, blah, thanks for the stat!!
Sounds like he didn't even get a couple practice heart attacks, like Cheney.
Yes, Russert embodied a lot of what is wrong with journalism and Washington, but it's not a capital offense, and no one deserves to die at 58 like that. It's not the "prime of your life," but it's the point at which you're supposed to start looking forward to a new stage in life.
Seems on the round of blogs there's one frankie D. (Guess we know what the D stands for). But I'd like to think that while Russert had issues he wasn't just a partisan hack, and hell after spending week after week with the guy you should feel some sympathy. It's called being human.
Damn, now this has me thinking about John Mclaughlin. He's no spring chicken.
so all of a sudden we are supposed to forget about all of the outrageously harmful things people like russert do?
if he had practiced his craft of journalism, there is a very good chance that we would have never gotten involved in such a harmful war.
if people like condi rice and cheney did not feel that they could go on his show and lie through their teeth about matters of life and death, it is very possible that they would have never felt comfortable lying, continually to the american people.
if he had actually been the "tough questioner" he supposedly was, perhaps he would have actually torn cheney's smug assurances about the coming war to shreds and the administration would not have taken us to war and wasted thousands of american lives and hundreds of thousands of iraqi lives.
he'll have to deal with his complicity in his own terms, but i have no qualms about pointing out a bunch of inconvenient truths.
if pointing this out makes me a dick and less than a class act, i wear that proudly.
Good to know I'm not the only one Sam. Seemed like a decent enough guy. This really is going to ruin my R. Kelly, "not guilty" party tonight.
I guess it'll be Lil' Russ and Jack McAuliffe watching the election and having a scotch in that great Buffalo dive bar in the sky.
- g
Sorry to disturb you pt, but I am not going to pretend I will miss him, and certainly will not abide any sort of revisionist history or tributes to him that we are seeing from his fellow villagers.
One should certainly feel bad for his family, but someone who has been as destructive to the political discourse in this country as Russert will not be missed in any sense of the word.
Seems on the round of blogs there's one frankie D. (Guess we know what the D stands for). But I'd like to think that while Russert had issues he wasn't just a partisan hack, and hell after spending week after week with the guy you should feel some sympathy. It's called being human.
Damn, now this has me thinking about John Mclaughlin. He's no spring chicken.
Seems on the round of blogs there's one frankie D. (Guess we know what the D stands for). But I'd like to think that while Russert had issues he wasn't just a partisan hack, and hell after spending week after week with the guy you should feel some sympathy. It's called being human.
Damn, now this has me thinking about John Mclaughlin. He's no spring chicken.
Good to know I'm not the only one Sam. Seemed like a decent enough guy. This really is going to ruin my R. Kelly, "not guilty" party tonight.
so all of a sudden we are supposed to forget about all of the outrageously harmful things people like russert do?
if he had practiced his craft of journalism, there is a very good chance that we would have never gotten involved in such a harmful war.
if people like condi rice and cheney did not feel that they could go on his show and lie through their teeth about matters of life and death, it is very possible that they would have never felt comfortable lying, continually to the american people.
if he had actually been the "tough questioner" he supposedly was, perhaps he would have actually torn cheney's smug assurances about the coming war to shreds and the administration would not have taken us to war and wasted thousands of american lives and hundreds of thousands of iraqi lives.
he'll have to deal with his complicity in his own terms, but i have no qualms about pointing out a bunch of inconvenient truths.
if pointing this out makes me a dick and less than a class act, i wear that proudly.
so all of a sudden we are supposed to forget about all of the outrageously harmful things people like russert do?
if he had practiced his craft of journalism, there is a very good chance that we would have never gotten involved in such a harmful war.
if people like condi rice and cheney did not feel that they could go on his show and lie through their teeth about matters of life and death, it is very possible that they would have never felt comfortable lying, continually to the american people.
if he had actually been the "tough questioner" he supposedly was, perhaps he would have actually torn cheney's smug assurances about the coming war to shreds and the administration would not have taken us to war and wasted thousands of american lives and hundreds of thousands of iraqi lives.
he'll have to deal with his complicity in his own terms, but i have no qualms about pointing out a bunch of inconvenient truths.
if pointing this out makes me a dick and less than a class act, i wear that proudly.
I met him once, briefly, and he came across as a warm and decent man. My friend who worked with him has nothing but good things to say about him as a boss and a mentor and a friend. That said, I despised his "gotcha" style and believe that it has been a corrosive influence in journalism and politics.
I think there is a huge disconnect between the Tim Russert the Human Being that my friend knew and admired, and the Tim Russert the Schtick with whom most of us were acquainted.
Is it possible to be very sad that Tim Russert the Human Being is gone, but not so much Tim Russert the Schtick is gone as well? Or am I being a dick?
"...less than a class act..." is an extreme understatement for you, brotha.
By what I've heard his wife, son, and father say publicly, he was a good husband, father, and son. That is a terrific lifetime accomplishment, and it indicates that someone who will be missed terribly, especially when the someone dies at age 58.
What is really sobering is that someone at this paygrade and point in their life probably received the best preventive medical care available, especially in regards to detecting heart issues. There are no guarantees, are there?
Might the D in Frankie D stand for dipshit? You sound like AJ on the last season of the Sopranos.
I think most people here hated most of Russert's professional work. He was a good example of many negasive aspects of the mainstream media in this country.
Still, being polite isn't just something for Old World royalty. We treat each other with respect because we're all human and deserve some decency despite our mistakes and flaws.
When I lived with my grandparents in high school the only shows my grandma and i could watcher were Law and Order and Meet the Press. So, like a lot of the comments, I'll miss the sunday morning fixture
I think most people here hated most of Russert's professional work. He was a good example of many negasive aspects of the mainstream media in this country.
Still, being polite isn't just something for Old World royalty. We treat each other with respect because we're all human and deserve some decency despite our mistakes and flaws.
sally,
i think naive idiot would probably be most applicable to you.
all of you fools who feel sorry for someone you don't know, who actively participates in frauds that cost thousands of lives, i hope you can live with yourself.
personally, i believe that when someone actively participates in those types of activities - and he had to understand what he was doing by allowing people like cheney to come on his show and "control" his message - as cheney's own aides described it - well, he is just as complicit as the principals who actually perpetrated the crimes.
in fact, wasn't that one of the general rules that we supposedly learned about nazi germany?
I think most people here hated most of Russert's professional work. He was a good example of many negasive aspects of the mainstream media in this country.
Still, being polite isn't just something for Old World royalty. We treat each other with respect because we're all human and deserve some decency despite our mistakes and flaws.
When I lived with my grandparents in high school the only shows my grandma and i could watcher were Law and Order and Meet the Press. So, like a lot of the comments, I'll miss the sunday morning fixture
I'm not one who thinks you can't speak ill of the dead. But you shouldn't be dancing on people's graves either.
Russert was, in many ways, the classic beltway journalist--unfair to Democrats, preferring gossip to issues, rich, and a phony spokesman for the common man. I believe he is someone who did the country a lot of harm. But he was not evil incarnate. Most of his work was actually fairly benign. And it's tough that he died so suddenly at such a relatively young age.
As for frankie d, why would anyone even read his posts? His keyboard apparently has no shift key and I think we should all boycott his comments till he has the decency to get that fixed.
I only watched Russert occasionally & know next to nothing about the man, but as some others have commented, I felt a fleeting sense of shock & loss when I read about his death.
As for commenters taking a 'good riddance to bad rubbish' tone, all I can say is: a man has died. Like him or not, he had family & friends that loved & now miss him. There will be plenty of time to pontificate on the good & bad of Russert's legacy. If you can't show any respect for his family & friends, how about, at least, showing a bit of decorum?
I think most people here hated most of Russert's professional work.
Hey, I loved it! I always looked forward to Sunday mornings.
I know Matthew Yglesias disliked his work, but just because I read this blog doesn't mean I agree with everything he says.
Now would be a good time for Matt to reconsider Russert.
if pointing this out makes me a dick and less than a class act, i wear that proudly.
I'm not in favor of whitewashing someone's reputation in the immediate aftermath of his or her death. So I'm all for a debate over whether Russert played a positive or negative role in DC politics, whether or not he was a good journalist, etc. I think he played a largely negative role in DC politics and I don't think he was a very good journalist.
What I--and apparently others--object to is sentiment along the lines of, "I'm glad he's dead."
Yeah, you can dress it up by pretending to weep for American troops and the people of Iraq, but you're just expressing an ugly and aggressive streak in your own personality. Maybe you, like me, know a lot of people who've been killed in Iraq. If so, you should know better than to glory in someone's death simply because you didn't like him. And you should definitely be above the idea that random death (even when it strikes someone you disdain) makes the world a better place.
If you don't respect Russert, at least aspire to having some dignity.
Weird to think that his father, whom he famously idealized as the embodiment of long-lost, bygone values of the better old days, has outlived him.
the unwillingness to confront people like russert is exactly why this country is in the sad shape it is in.
people like russert know well that they can behave in whatever reprehensible fashion they wish to behave in, and idiots like most of the folks on this thread will forgive and forget.
a fraud is a fraud. a hypocrite is a hypocrite.
someone who is complicit in the deaths of thousands and thousands of people is just that.
a compliant news media - and certainly one who is one of the central figures in that media - that allows itself to be manipulated for the purposes of an unnecessary, tragic war is as essential as guns and bullets and tanks and airplanes.
sorry that fools like most of you cannot grasp that simple and essential truth.
grow up.
Frankie D = reason not to have comments on blog
frankie, you can keep trying to make this a debate about Iraq, but it will continue to be a debate about whether you have any class. Actually, it's not a debate about that, either, since the answer is so blindingly obvious.
By the way, your standard that Russert was a pawn of bad people, was therefore complicit in bad acts, and therefore deserved to die, is the same standard terrorists and militiamen use to justify the murder of Iraqi journalists. Way to go.
To belabor this point: wishing death on people you don't like, and destroying the distinction between people directly responsible for bad acts and the rest of society, is a recipe for the collapse of civil society. Wanting that to happen doesn't make you some kind of truth-telling rebel; it just makes you an asshole who doesn't know what he's talking about.
why would i feel sorry for the death of someone who is complicit in the murder of thousands?
it's always amusing to see people mourn the death of a famous person, even if that famous person has done despicable things in their life, things that tragically impact on the lives of others.
those same people show no sympathy for or real concern for those who have been harmed by those despicable person, but can, amusingly summon all sorts of concern for someone who has used their position in life to enrich themselves while simultaneously and not coincidentally harming others.
i say BS on that nonsense and i have no problem at all identifying him for exactly what he was: a person who maintained his position of power and wealth by allowing politicians to use him and his show to perpetuate lies and disseminate propoganda that was essential to the prosecution of a horrible war.
tim russert did that.
i am pointing it out.
i don't give a hoot if it bruises your delicate sensibilities.
if americans were less concerned about offense of that sort and were more concerned about events that harm and destroy people, this would be a far better country.
Well, I'm not going to sit here and say good riddance or anything, but I do wonder why people who thought he was a crappy journalist care. I mean, really? I guess it's just how you feel, but I have to be honest, I feel nothing. How many people die like this every day? And I'm going to be upset b/c one man died, whose only contribution to my own life, and the vast majority of people in the world's was negative? No. You note it and move on. Maybe it's a reminder to you of human frailty. I guess I'm just already persuaded on the matter.
This whole, 'how do you handle your political opponent's death' thing is kind of an interesting subject. My opinion is that you note it and move on. Don't dance on the grave, but also, no reason, in my view, to pretend to have some outpouring of emotion if there isn't any. He has friends and family for that. But obits will be written, and I think the positive ones should be countered with negative ones. Fair is fair and that's life.
He was pretty annoying on Meet the Press, but for some reason I almost always watch it - much more than the other Sunday shows - so he must have been doing something right.
I thought Tim was good when he would pop in on the Today show, and he was very good during the last several months of primary night coverage. I will always be grateful to him for busting a cap in the Clinton campaign once and for all.
I come from a line of equally jowly Irish-Americans. I'd better get down to the gym tonight.
How awful for his friends and family. Despite all the contempt this blog and others have always had for him- I sort of always liked the guy. He's the only I ever saw or heard of who put Perle on the spot with a question about dual loyalty. 58 - wow, that's young. Watched the show, even enjoyed it. I read once where Joe Dimaggio was a fan of Russert's, and that made sense. He was no Clintonista, no smug, cloying,insipid yuppie. He seemed as if he favored Obama. RIP, Tim. You were one of the good guys.
frankie, I highly doubt that you've been at the forefront of any push to end the war and install "journalistic integrity" in the media corps, nor do I think Tim Russert has been at the forefront of destroying any effort (highly unlikely) you may have made, nor do I think he has harmed you or your family or your friends (if you have any) personally. Therefore, I think you're take that it's good Russert is dead is disingenuous at best, creepy on it's its face, and so low class it's difficult to define. You're not really hurting anyone's feelings on here, we didn't know the guy beyond the persona we saw on the television. We're just pointing out you're a douchebag, harmless, but extremely distasteful...and we think you're acting like a douchebag just to act like a douchebag.
I'm with FrankieD and Andruw -- I was posting the same thoughts over at Atrios's place. Here's a short sample:
I'll be sorry when Ted Kennedy dies. But I wasn't sad at all when Reagan or Nixon died. And I'm not sad about Pumpkinhead. I didn't know him personally, but I knew his public persona and he struck me as a huge pandering, right-wing ass-kissing dick who enabled the theft of a presidential election, the deep corruption of our political system, and the mass murder of a million human beings.
I mourn the loss of the good ones and don't worry about the bad ones. Ruusert was a dick before he died and now he's a dead dick. End of story.
Jesus, frankie d. Go away already. Be a ghoul somewhere else.
Unbelievably, the #2 comment at the nytimes.com post on this is just like this. People just can't let go of their petty grievances.
This would have been a worse world if not for Tim Russert.
the only thing i would like to correct is simply this: i never wished for anyone's death.
you'll never see that in anything i've ever written.
i certainly don't feel bad about it, but i have never, in my entire life wished that anyone else was dead.
reading is fundamental.
this country has a long tradition of not talking about certain indelicate matters because, well we just don't talk about those things.
if assholes like JB and most of you spent as much time actually talking about and dealing with the people who actually are responsible for the real problems in this country - people like russert who used his media platform to propagate lies and propaganda - we would not be in the situation we are in.
yea, those nazi propagandists...those were bad guys.
yea, al queda's propaganda...they should never try to put that stuff out there.
yea, those russians haven't had a free press in a long time and the people who help prop up their system, those sure are bad folks.
the chinese who propagandize their people, yea, those are bad and horrible people.
but people like russert?
oh no, we can't say bad things about them. we cannot hold them accountable for the things they do.
that is the american way.
it is frankly HILARIOUS that so many of you folks get upset, not at the role that someone like russert may have played in the iraq war - and in helping to prop up our corrupt political system - but at someone who points out that role and has no sympathy for someone who was such an integral part of it.
now that makes a helluva lot of sense!
but, i do believe that i struck a nerve with lots of you, and that, as much as anything is responsible for the reaction.
the fact that you are so easily aroused by my callous attitude about a despicable character says much more about YOUR mentality. and your character.
russert's involvement in the war run-up, his refusal to really examine the corrupt elections in this country...well, that is really not that important...what is important is that people shouldn't speak ill of the dead.
BS.
and have fun kids, and don't follow russert with your own heart attack.
i'm going to run my dog, so i can't stay and laugh at you any longer. too bad.
Mike: I think not. And there are a million or so families in Iraq that don't think so either. God people like you are such tools. Fake morals my friend, fake morals.
Tim Russert, while an occasionally annoying interviewer, was a very very likable persona. He exuded a joy of life that I personally envy. All you people dancing on his grave need a hug. Seriously, get off the fucking computer, stop obsessively posting on blogs and find some help. Take a moment to look at yourself in the mirror and admit you are wasting your life away drooling over a laptop. That goes for you Frankie D! Tim at least understood the concept of making every day count! As J. Krishnamurti said, "The enemy is not the other, the enemy is you." Is the world perfect? No. But you should try to come with the grips with the fact you actually hate yourself and you are just projecting it onto people like tim russert. At least that's the only reason I can imagine someone would possibly write what you have. Sorry for the rant, but you need help!
bdwass: wow that's a lot of Happy Talk!
But Frankie D is right. Russert was complicit in mass murder and a lot of other morally offensive behavior. Frankie D is being morally serious while people like you are being polite. You don't seem to understand the scale of what Frankie D is talking about.
frankie, as I said, I welcome criticism of Russert. I don't think he was a good journalist, and I think he represented some very troubling aspects of DC journalism and punditry.
If you'd posted a comment identifying his shortcomings as a journalist I don't think many people would've had a problem with it. But by starting out with "good riddance," and then proceeding to compare him to Nazi propagandists and al Qaeda spokesmen, you exposed yourself as someone looking for an argument, not someone trying to make sure everyone has an accurate view of Tim Russert.
I'd be happy to read a critical assessment of Russert, but a sub-literate ranter like you doesn't get the job done.
And for the last time: Expressing satisfaction at the deaths of your political opponents isn't good for civil society. I realize that you don't actually care about that, any more than you actually care about the people of Iraq, but it's worth mentioning.
"...but I do wonder why people who thought he was a crappy journalist care.
It's because he was a 'fixture'. It's possible to dislike or disagree with someone & still miss them when they're gone. But it's mostly a matter of respect... if not for the man, then those he leaves behind.
Even folks like John Amato & Bob Somerby, who have regularly taken the piss out of Russert, respond with dignity & respect:
Amato: "Wow, what shocking news. My heart goes out to his friends and family."
Somerby: "In memory of Tim and with respect for his loved ones, we'll just give it a rest for now and plan to return here on Monday.
Exactly right & I'm sure most of Russert's (liberal) critics will take the same tact. Not because it's politically correct, not because it's wrong to speak ill of the dead, or whatever, but, simply because of: Simple. Human. Decency.
He will be missed. Not, however, by me.
Frankie D, if your problem is that people don't "confront people like Russert," fine. But the time to confront someone is while he is alive. After he is dead, there is no point, other than to look like a blustering coward or an utter monster. Honestly, do you think that your attitude really is going to change journalism?
JB,
what is hilarious is that you've been getting urinated on for 7 years now - longer really - and you still think that it is raining.
what is fed to the american people is propaganda in the same vein as the tripe fed to the soviets and the nazis.
for some inexplicable reason - perhaps lack of native intelligence or the inability to read and comprehend - that reality escapes you.
your problem, not mine.
go on reading papers, watching television, imagining that you are being provided true and accurate information.
hey, did you know that santa claus is also coming to town?
and that you just missed the easter bunny?
and i never imagined that i would offer a critique of russert as a journalist.
that has been done before, and others, like glenn greenwald have exposed russert for exactly what he was.
never indicated that i would offer such a critique and i have no interest in writing one.
i do suggest that you invest in a few basic reading courses, so you can more fully comprehend what i am writing, and what you encounter in your daily life.
obviously you need the lessons.
now, i do have to run... my dog beckons.
well raff: you stipulate that Simple. Human. Decency. requires that we not speak ill of Russert, but it seems to me that a much stronger case can be made that the occasion of Russert's death is a great time to hold him morally accountable for his complicity in the theft of a presidential election, the corruption of our country's basic principles, and the death of a miilion Iraqis.
Let's see: on the hand we have politeness toward someone complicit with war criminals and on the the other hand a million dead people etc.
I think its pretty clear that Frankie D et al are on the side of Simple. Human. Decency. and you're on the side of fake moralism.
The Fool: Moral seriousness doesn't require the inability to walk and chew gum at the same time. Just because I agree that Russert is complicit in the Iraq disaster doesn't mean that I can't also be civil in the event of his death.
Russert loved life and he loved America - Sometimes I disagreed with his questions, but that was too his credit in my book because that just meant he mattered so much.
"After he is dead, there is no point, other than to look like a blustering coward or an utter monster."
This is idiotic. Should we then not speak ill of Hitler out of Simple. Human. Decency? After all what is to be gained?
I'll tell you what is to be gained: accountability and avoiding the whitewashing of wrongdoing.
Anticaptory response: no I'm not saying Russert = Hitler. Its a reductio argument.
I would also like to echo the first commenter - I too am not only upset, but shocked by how sad this makes me feel. I did not know him, but I am truly sad and wish his family the best.
I would also like to echo the first commenter - I too am not only upset, but shocked by how sad this makes me feel. I did not know him, but I am truly sad and wish his family the best.
Comment: Russert loved life you say? What a sick thing to say when you have read the kind of qualms that have been raised about Russert's moral shortcomings on this thread.
What about those million dead Iraqis? I bet they loved their lives too until they were ended by unsought and unjustified violence -- as opposed to gluttony.
Hmmm, Reaganism still needs to be confronted, and the guy has been dead for years.
I wasn't a big fan of his work, but I'm genuinely shocked and somewhat saddened at Russert's death. Those pure hearts who are celebrating his demise, I hope you can forgive me for being so bourgeois and sentimental.
Now if we can just get Chris Matthews, Brian Williams, Bill O'Reilly...the list is too long to post here.
Tim Russert was like a master surgeon. No other mainstream journalist could cut thru the BS a politician was spouting like Russert.
He was a very bad man, and he was almost certainly taking money from or doing favors for the Republicans while posing as an independent journalist.
Basically a terrorist against American freedom and the American people.
You know how much moral weight a million dead Iraqis carry among many of my fellow Americans? Virtually none, practically speaking.
Its amazing how people appeal to things like politesse in the face of moral arguments appealing to complicity in the death of a million Iraqis and in their moral calculus, the weight of politeness weights down the scales more than the million dead people.
I see this all the time. You point to a million dead people and people act like you're talking about good penmanship.
I have no problem, any more, understanding how the Holocaust happened.
I am saddened by Tim Russert's death. He was, in his best moments, an effective journalist who successfully confronted people in positions of power. In his worst moments, such as in the lead up to the Iraq War, he failed to confront and question the Bush Administration effectively. So his legacy as a journalist is mixed. His overall legacy as a human being is probably not something we're capable of assessing, since we didn't know the man, but he always seemed like an amiable and decent guy to me.
Again, at worst, Russert was an ineffective journalist. But to those dancing on his grave, I would point out that being gullible to the arguments of the Bush Administration in the lead-up to the Iraq War does not exactly put him in unique company. If you're going to equate everyone who was insufficiently skeptical of the war with war criminals, then half the Democratic Party, most of the news media, and a majority of the American people should be imprisoned. It's just a really silly argument.
His untimely passing is sad. Best thoughts and wishes for his family and friends.
This thread is also sad.
As a WAG, of the people taking the opportunity of a young death to act like dicks in this thread:
25% are conservatives posing as liberals to make liberals look bad;
25% think they are being cool and edgy, despite actually being roughly as cool and edgy as Vanilla Ice,
25% are dogma-addled whackjobs who are unable to observe decency when someone they view as a political opponent dies,
and 25% are just dicks.
r.i.p.
This is idiotic. Should we then not speak ill of Hitler out of Simple. Human. Decency? After all what is to be gained?
your humanity, jackass. you seem to think you're passing judgment on russert. you're really commenting on yourself.
the ability to see humans as humans, and not merely as pawns in geopolitical struggles, is what separates us from the warmongers. and by us, i don't mean you.
but when you shuffle off this mortal coil, best believe i'll pay respect, regardless of the words that came out of your mouth today.
it's a sad day when ANYBODY DIES. That DOESN'T MAKE IT NEWSWORTHY. Everyone is making a big deal of his death. HE SUCKED AT HIS JOB AND HELPED PERPETUATE THE PROPAGANDA FOR THE WAR AND THE NEOCONS. These bastards should make such headlines everytime one of my fellow soldiers or marines dies. SO YES I'M GLAD HE'S OFF THE AIR, BUT I AM SAD FOR HIS FAMILY'S GRIEF.
I just wanna say, viz-a-viz Rob Mac's shift-key remark Dan's comment above, that I prefer no caps to all caps.
Just sayin'...
"If you're going to equate everyone who was insufficiently skeptical of the war with war criminals, then half the Democratic Party, most of the news media, and a majority of the American people should be imprisoned."
Exactly -- except for the part about the American people most of whom rely on the media and are not elites in positions of power like Russert.
"you seem to think you're passing judgment on russert. you're really commenting on yourself."
No actually, I'm commenting on Russert.
"25% are dogma-addled whackjobs who are unable to observe decency when someone they view as a political opponent dies"
Guilty as charged. When it comes to the principle that you don't get a million people killed in an illegal war of aggression based on a hoax, I am absolutely dogmatic. For you, I guess its optional.
Yes, I have no problem understanding how the Holocaust happened.
AND FOR THOSE OF YOU SPINELESS, DICKLESS, MILITARY DODGING, WAR MONGERING, 'SUPPORT THE TROOPS' RIBBON WEARING, GAS GUZZLER DRIVING, NEOCON ASSHOLES; YOUR DAY IS COMING TOO AND I'LL PISS ON YOUR GRAVE SO YOUR DIRTY SOUL WILL EVAPORATE FASTER ON THE WAY TO YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR.
I'M A PATRIOT MILITARY SERVING DEMOCRAT.
I said, "Should we then not speak ill of Hitler out of Simple. Human. Decency? After all what is to be gained?"
Scythia replied, "your humanity, jackass."
Scythia you do realize, don't you, that you just argued that we should not speak ill of Hitler out of respect for the dead? Wow, you sure have a helluva lot of respect for the dead, don't you?
The death is not newsworthy? So viewers who tune in to "Meet the Press" next week wondering why there's a different host should need to spend a half-hour searching the Internet trying to find out what happened to Tim Russert?
No one's holding a massive state funeral for the guy, but when a major media figure passes on, it's certainly worth being mentioned by the media.
We're all worse off with the death of Tim Russert. Now Russert belongs to the ages. RIP Tim.
Wow, you sure have a helluva lot of respect for the dead, don't you?
Yes, I do.
I also have family members who died in the Holocaust. So unless you can drop your drawers and show me your little MOT, I think it's time for you to shut the fuck up.
I've been absurdly accused of projecting my own self-hatred or generalized hatred of humanity several times today. That's a crock of shit but as long as we're talking psychology here, I think there are a lot ostensive Russert/politeness defenders who are simply projecting their fear of their own death. And when you elevate your own vague fear of your own non-imminent death above the actual deaths of a million Iraqis, I submit you're doing nothing respectable at all. But it may well be polite.
NO, his death is NOT newsworthy. His viewers will have plenty of like alternatives on TV such as O'Reilly, Hannity, Abrams, Matthews to get their misinformation from.
You want news?! Stop watching TV and do the research yourself online from independent news organizations.
For the poster who asked about whether some heart attacks are related to recent air travel, I think you are thinking about a deep vein thrombosis (blood clot which can form in the leg due to immobility) which can lead to sudden death if the clot breaks off and travels to the lungs (pulmonary embolism). I am not a physician but I imagine this kind of clot could also cause a heart attack if it travels to the heart.
I lost a colleague who was even younger than Tim Russert to a sudden death (stroke) earlier this month. I think one reason we mourn someone like Tim Russert is that his death makes us realize how fragile life is. Something similar could happen to a loved one at any moment.
Scythia: you have relatives who died in the Holocaust yet you come on this thread and argue that we shouldn't speak ill of Hitler? That is shameful.
Scythia: you have relatives who died in the Holocaust yet you come on this thread and argue that we shouldn't speak ill of Hitler? That is shameful.
Scythia: you have relatives who died in the Holocaust yet you come on this thread and argue that we shouldn't speak ill of Hitler? That is shameful.
What is shameful, my friend, is using the murder of seven (6J+1I) million people to score cheap shots on a message board celebrating someone's else death. If you had the slightest idea of what Judiasm stands for, of the slightest conception of what life is worth, you'd conduct yourself with respect and apologize.
I have no problem, any more, understanding how the Holocaust happened.
It happened through a process of dehumanization, in which a disgruntled German citizenry were convinced that the Jews had betrayed their country i/r/t a war, and thus deserved to be treated as sub-human and exterminated.
When you celebrate the deaths of your political opponents (and Russert was not even that
Were you truly concerned about the Iraqis, there are numerous relief organizations you could devote your time/energy/resources towards, in an effort to improve the lives of those still living. Somehow I imagine you've spent more time hating on the past than putting constructive effort towards fixing the future. Run along and play with Pastor Hagee, goyim. Your time on this thread is over. Keep my ancestors' names out of your mouth from now on.
What is shameful, my friend, is using the murder of seven (6J+1I) million people to score cheap shots on a message board celebrating someone's else death. If you had the slightest idea of what Judiasm stands for, of the slightest conception of what life is worth, you'd conduct yourself with respect and apologize.
I have no problem, any more, understanding how the Holocaust happened.
It happened through a process of dehumanization, in which a disgruntled German citizenry were convinced that the Jews had betrayed their country i/r/t a war, and thus deserved to be treated as sub-human and exterminated.
When you celebrate the deaths of your political opponents (and Russert was not even that), you engage in the same process of dehumanization, and make further atrocities likely in the future.
Were you truly concerned about the Iraqis, there are numerous relief organizations you could devote your time/energy/resources towards, in an effort to improve the lives of those still living. Somehow I imagine you've spent more time hating on the past than putting constructive effort towards fixing the future.
Run along and play with Pastor Hagee, goyim. Your time on this thread is over. Keep my ancestors' names out of your mouth from now on.
Politeness uber alles.
Amen to Scythia. "The Fool" would be better named "The Complete Jackass" for having the sheer audacity to accuse her, with zero evidence, of "arguing that we shouldn't speak ill of Hitler."
There's an old debate rule that whichever side is reduced the desperation tactic of bringing up Hitler/Nazis to attack his or her opponent's position automatically loses. I think that applies here.
Scythia: you're weird. You came on this thread arguing that we shouldn't speak ill of Hitler and now you're all high and mighty about being Jewish.
You ain't making any sense, girl.
Shalom, brother. And a long life to all of you, even those who act from ignorance.
jlr29: you, sir*, are retarded.
Here is my post from 7:29
I said, "Should we then not speak ill of Hitler out of Simple. Human. Decency? After all what is to be gained?"
Scythia replied, "your humanity, jackass."
Scythia you do realize, don't you, that you just argued that we should not speak ill of Hitler out of respect for the dead? Wow, you sure have a helluva lot of respect for the dead, don't you?
Let me spell it out for the two retards: You see that was a reductio ad absurdum argument. If there is a general rule that you shouldn't speak ill of the dead then that would mean you couldn't speak ill of dead bad people either -- like Hitler, get it!
I then echoed what had been said to me by following up and asking the obviously stupid question that had been asked of me, "After all what is to be gained" i.e. what is to be gained from speaking ill of Hitler?
Then the brilliant Scythia, defender of the Jews, comes along and informs that there is my humanity to be gained -- from NOT speaking ill of Hitler! Get it?
QED, retards.
*can't say I'm not polite!
A moment ago, Matthews (Tweety), on Olberman's show, just recounted a conversation with Russert in which he asked Russert, "How can you support this war?", right before the invasion (very slight paraphrase as I didn't write it down, quote marks for effect).
Russert's response was that he supported the war because of the Iraqi nuclear program. Yes, the Iraqi Nukes.
Again, feel bad for the family, even more so now that it seems that they are still in Italy, which has to be the worst feeling in the world.
But the real obit that will be played out here on the internets needs to note that he was a pretty poor journalist, and one with a undeniably malevolent effect on the country given his position.
Scythia said, "Run along and play with Pastor Hagee, goyim."
Gosh, Scythia, I called Hagee but he told me he already had a play date with Joe Lieberman so I struck out.
Also, its hard not to view your use of "goyim" here as pretty derogatory. To put it in prespective, imagine if I said to you, "Run along and play with Pastor Hagee, jewess."
What a circle-jerk you cowardly left-wing blog-commenters make up. You're all just disgusting.
Mind you, I'm not outraged that you people have ice in your veins about Russert's death. It's hard to be outraged when you're not surprised. You're a bunch of budding fascists who just happen to be coming from the left, who flatter yourselves into thinking your grotesque distortion of liberal politics makes you into superior moral beings, when in fact you're just a bunch of goth creeps.
What does surprise me is how completely you have all bought into the myth of the media facilitating the war, and Russert in particular. You repeat it to each other enough, you use each other's hearsay as evidence. The fact is, the media was more skeptical about this war than they were about any in American history, Russert included.
You just don't understand journalism. The ethic of journalism is to give all significant players their say. Cheney appeared, he got tough questions from Russert and others, he defended himself, and then a war skeptic would be interviewed. You seem to have wanted Russert to have one of those Olbermann-like tantrums. You don't realize, Olbermann is completely unpersuasive. He comes off to anyone not in his amen corner as a close-minded ignoramus, Emily Litella in drag.
Russert was tough and fair. With regard to Iraq, your problem is not with the media, it's with the American public, who supported this war because of the available facts at the time. Ample airtime was given to those who believed Hussein had no weapons, along with 50 other reasons why we shouldn't invade Iraq. The public heard your side, heard the other side, and your side lost the argument. At long last, the bawling about that must stop.
"The fact is, the media was more skeptical about this war than they were about any in American history"
hahahaha
hahahahahahahahaha
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Now that is truly comical. You should ask liberal fascist Scottie McLellan if he agrees.
You must be deeply brainwashed, my friend.
I was hoping you idiots would cite McClellan. He's an idiot out of his depth and always has been. His version of the media/administration dialogue has been completely discredited. Start with this: In the run-up to the war, McClellan wasn't anywhere near the policymakers on the defense/foreign policy side, so he doesn't really know anything about the period you're talking about.
Peter Osnos laid a big check on Scott's pot belly and -- with visions of a lifetime supply of Cheetos dancing in his head -- McClellan wrote was he was told to write.
When you're done typing two letters over and over as if that's an intelligent argument, go back and look at transcripts and clips back in 2002, and you'll see I'm right. The media was generally tough on the administration about the war. Opponents had almost limitless opportunities to make their case. It was a weak case, but they got to make it over and over again.
Perhaps you were watching too much Spongebob Squarepants when you should've been watching the news. That's understandable, but don't go buying into the hearsay of your other left-wing buddies. Most of them are liars, and you're their willing stooge.
frankie d and The Fool:
You are disgusting excuses for human beings.
At long last, have you sense of decency, Sir?
Vail Beach: "I was hoping you idiots would cite McClellan. He's an idiot out of his depth"
Taking what you say as fact, who decided he should have such an exalted position at the White House?
That guy must be a moron! With terrible judgement!! An idiot out of his depth!!!
I don't think the term "good riddance" is appropriate when anyone dies.
Lauren, I agree. And it was a relief to see your comment among all the others. I did not like the way Tim Russert did journalism, either, but that's not what's important now. He was a human being, and he died, far too young. He left behind a wife and children, one of whom just graduated from college. Perhaps it would be a good exercise in compassion for some of the 20-somethings in this thread who think that having a fatal heart attack at 58 is perfectly normal to consider how they would feel if it was THEIR father.
I find it a bit humorous that many people on the internet who previously bashed Russert feel the need to somehow convey their deep sorrow. Sure, I think it is sad, and it is a personally wretched time for his family I am sure.
But people die every day in America and abroad because of the culture to which Mr. Russert was party. Does that mean he is solely to blame? Hardly. Does it mean that I need to feign some sense of outrage over his passing. No. I think my outrage is better directed at the true victims in our world, rather than lashing out at blog posters for venturing their opinions, even if abit tasteless at the man's death. In DC, everyone is catatonic. There were 7 murders in this fair city last weekend and yet nary a mention among the chattering class. Where was all the outrage?
It's entirely possible to have a pretty low opinion of Bush and his administration and still believe the war was necessary. I didn't like McClellan when he was spouting the Bush line, and I don't like him now that he's spouting yours.
That's why Russert's death is so sad. He's leaving us a political discourse that's going to be dominated by dim sellouts like McClellan and uninformed oafs like Olbermann and O'Reilly. And you pukes are celebrating.
Breschau said, "You are disgusting excuses for human beings. At long last, have you [no] sense of decency, Sir?"
A better sense of decency than you I daresay. I count the lives of 1 million human beings as being of far greater moral weight than I do politeness toward a man who was complicit in the deaths of those million human beings.
I say it is YOU who are indecent. It is YOU.
There was a hoax in this country that was used as an excuse to launch a war that led to a million deaths. That is the height of indecency, Mr. Breshau, the HEIGHT of indecency. Now you are either someone who has moral principles or you are not. If you have more real moral principles, you undestand that the slaughter of a million people is a horrible and despicable crime and there MUST be accountability for such evil.
I am holding Tim Russert accountable for that precisely because I am a morally decent person.
People like you on the other hand get all bent out shape about politeness, while the horrible crime of getting a million people killed based on a lie doesn't seem toactivate your moral sense at all.
That's because you have fake morals, sir. Fake morals I say. Fake.
And you vail beach: you can't really expect to be taken seriously around here, can you? This isn't the FoxNews blog. A lot of people around here are pretty smart and know what really has been happening. Your bizarre descriptions of the media don't pass the laugh test, pal. Not even close.
You are nothing fool. You are not even that. Please practice your autoeroticism elsewhere.
Tim Russert's death is sad, just as anybody else's would be. Tim was a public fixture, and as such, known to many. He will be missed. I can't understand how anyone couldn't possibly help but like the guy. Yeah, I know we’re a pretty cynical bunch here in Washington. But please, let’s remember what civility we do have left in reaction to Tim’s death. I don't know if Hillary liked Tim; but that's another story for a different day. Although, word now has it that something other than a heart problem caused Tim's demise – an autopsy is scheduled. Stay tuned: http://theseedsof9-11.com
I have to admit, I was a bit surprised by the pleasure taken by some in Russert's death; but at the same time, I suppose if people took pleasure in Hitler's death, that would be understandable, even if it's not something I would take pleasure in (or be saddened by). So my question, why think Russert was a bad person?
I'm seriously asking; I don't know why.
The two (related) reasons I've heard are: he was a bad journalist and he was complicit in the deaths of a million people.
Obviously, the first reason by itself won't wash; just because someone is bad at a profession doesn't make him a bad human being. (Assuming Russert was indeed such a lousy journalist; why think he was such a lousy journalist? Because of the "gotcha" style of journalism? That isn't _wholly_ unproductive, is it? And is it completely ubiquitous among all other journalists? And if so, is it all, mostly, or partly Russert's fault?)
So it's got to be the second reason--that Russert is complicit in the deaths of a million people. First, I didn't realize that the war had caused the deaths of 1,000,000 Iraqis. I thought it was something like 400,000. Not that that makes things much better; being complicit in the deaths of 400,000 is pretty hideous, even if not as hideous as complicity with the murder of a million.
But this leads to the next question: in what sense was Russert complicit? Is it that he was taken advantage of by Cheney (which seems to be the line frankie d is taking)? Well, being taken advantage of by someone doesn't exactly make you complicit--it may make you foolish, or malleable, but such defects, again, don't seem to me to make the person who has them bad or evil.
So is it that Russert wanted to make the war look justifiable and used his show to do so? If so, what evidence do you have for this? His choice of guests? Something he said? Obvious bias that you detected? And even if he thought the war was justified and used his show to advance this agenda, one may wonder why he thought the war was justified. Was he naive? Does he have generally bad judgment? Is bad judgment about facts a moral failing? Or did his bad judgment stem from a moral viciousness?
And what if his judgment that the war was justified (which, according to Chris Matthews, he thought) was a good-faith judgment? Does that make him a bad person? And what if he thought it was justified but then changed his mind? Matt Yglesias falls into that last camp; if he died today would you think "good riddance"? And by the way, do you know for sure that he never had any second thoughts about the war's justification? If so, what's your evidence?
In closing, I'm not saying your view is intrinsically crazy; there are people about whose death one might rightly say, "good riddance". But I think a lot more questions need to be answered before one can in good conscience say that about Tim Russert.
Strong argument you got there vanderleun.
I decided after reading the comments above, that we, all of us, the ones that post here, and at Carpetbagger, Balloon-Juice, and Washington Monthly, etc, are mostly political junkees.
Tim Russert was a political junkee, too.
Whether you agreed with him or not, liked his program or not, Russert was one of US.
He was turned on by politics, by the ways and means of politics, and by political history.
He was one of us.
The saddest thing is that he died without knowing who was going to win in November.
"A lot of people around here are pretty smart and know what really has been happening."
And yet, somehow, you can't be bothered with providing evidence or even a coherent description of "what really has been happening." Instead, you whip up a combination of paranoia, propaganda and naivete. It is outrageous -- and not "pretty smart" by any definition -- that someone could write that Tim Russert is somehow responsible for the deaths of a million people.
Ken: "25% are conservatives posing as liberals to make liberals look bad;
25% think they are being cool and edgy, despite actually being roughly as cool and edgy as Vanilla Ice,
25% are dogma-addled whackjobs who are unable to observe decency when someone they view as a political opponent dies,
and 25% are just dicks."
Hmmm... Let's do the math.
25% + 25% + 25% + 25% = 100%
And since Ken posted here, that makes him one of the four categories.
Take your pick.
Just to add to the comedy here, let me say the following:
1) I have no "decency".
2) I have no "morality".
3) I have no "humanity".
4) I don't give a shit how many of you chimps die unless it's someone who has value to the species or value to me - of which there are damn few - and Russert was not one of them.
Have a nice weekend. Try not to die.
so, right-wing blogs are calling him a "leftist pawn" and a "reliable tool of the democrats" (spelled dumbocrats on the blog)and left-wing blogs are calling him a "right-wing pig" and apparently, he started a war with Iraq. I've always been told that most people consider themselves independents; where in the fuck are they?
"I count the lives of 1 million human beings as being of far greater moral weight than I do politeness toward a man who was complicit in the deaths of those million human beings."
What smug gibberish. It’s bad enough that those 1,000,000 died. But for them to be used as a rhetorical football by people who couldn’t have cared less about them in the first place, it eschews any and all talk about morality by those spouting the hyperbole.
I’ve said before and I’ll say it again, the worst phenomenon that the internet ever spawned are the phony intellectuals and phony tough guys that actually get a way to express their nonsense. It’s interesting how you never meet these people in real life.
Very few white Westerners really care about those dead Iraqis. They are brown-skinned, Muslim and all the way over there. They can go right on the list with the dead in Sudan, Rwanda, the Jews of Europe, the Chinese at Nanking, the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and untold millions throughout history.
To the extent that Russert was a negative force in modern American media, he was only carrying on a tradition of eroding the role the Fourth Estate once played in moderating intellectual discourse.
For the elderly father that has to bury his son and for the young man who has lost his own far too early, I pray. Tim Russet. Requiescat in pace.
Raindog: you couldn't be more wrong.
Also look up the word "eschew". it doesn't mean what you think it does.
You're a disgrace to Tom Waits.
Listen you stupid scumbags, I don't have time to look it all up. But here's a quik rundown on Russert. Fore more details persue the lefty blogs.
Russert allowed himself to be used as a medium for propaganda in return for access to high level government officials. Russert stacked his show hugely disproportionately with pro-war savages like yourselves and didn't have the decency to either confront them himself or let a guest on who could. Russert was Cheney's admitted favorite because Cheney felt he could control his message on his show. That ought to tell you everything you need to know.
RIP Tim Russert. The very best. In tribute, I played a cello 'Elegie' by Massenet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnuUgWg2FpQ
I started reading this feeling sorry for Russert's family. Now I'm feeling sorry for Matt. Who knew he had so many scumbags hanging out here?
I started reading this feeling sorry for Russert's family. Now I'm feeling sorry for Matt. Who knew he had so many scumbags hanging out here?
I have to admit that I checked out the post and the comments section to see what the scumbag-to-decent-folks ratio would be. While I expected it to be high, I'm surprised at just how high it is.
It is ghoulish to dance on someone's grave who, while not exactly benign, was not really a monster. But I don't feel sad at Russert's passing - surprise, yes, but not sadness. I feel sorry for his family, just as I feel sorry for the families of anyone who dies prematurely (when I know about it).
frankie d is not just being a dick, though. We are terribly insulated from death in this culture, as if it's something alien or tragic, when in fact it is the most normal thing in the world. Our government kills or abetts the early/needless killing of countless people around the world, and has done for many decades; we salve our consciences by pretending that these foreign cultures don't have a 'reverence for life' the way we do, but *we* too lack reverence for life, so long as it isn't an American life, or a blond girl - someone we can pretend to know - or etc. etc.
I guess it's inevitable that tv viewers feel they 'knew' Russert, but the fact is, they didn't know him, and mourning him excessively is practically the definition of impertinence.
Unlike frankie d, I would reserve 'good riddance' for people who were categorically much worse than Russert. But I don't really mourn him.
raindog,
since you brought the subject up, i will go somewhere i'd studiously avoided so far.
i am one of those brown-skinned americans who is acutely aware of the fact the issue of russert's death and the public reaction is suffused with the kind of subtle racism that most white americans don't want to think about, let alone talk about.
i've had it up to here with outpourings of sympathy for some dead white guy who has been instrumental, either directly or indirectly, in the deaths and suffering and misery of untold numbers of people of color.
from slaveowner/rapists like thomas jefferson to retrograde white supremecists like strom thurmond, supposedly polite and decent white folks get all misty and teary-eyed about people who have benefited enormously by virtue of their willingness to play their role in the growth, maintenance and perpetuation of the dominant racist culture.
there are thousands and thousands of people of that sort. russert was only unique in that he enjoyed a tremendously powerful and high-profile position and had a real opportunity to use that position in a positive way that most people could only imagine.
instead of using that position to spread truth and light - as our best journalists have done - he chose to use his position to get rich and powerful by allowing corrupt public officials to use his show as a platform for their propaganda. he had a duty, he refused to fulfill that duty because he wanted to reap material benefits.
lots of folks have suffered as a result.
as someone who understands that this dynamic has played out against black folks in this country for most of its history, i am very aware and concerned when i see another group of darker skinned people treated in the same way.
and it galls the hell out of me when i read all these silly, supposedly polite and decent white folks shedding tears over some dead white guy they did not even know, when they countenance the deaths of thousands of brown-skinned folks who are dead because a dead white guy like tim russert would not do the kind of job he was supposed to do.
so, since you brought it up, let me clarify my stance and inform you of how incorrect you are about me.
and before you go making assumptions about people who post here, remember that old saying your mom taught you about assuming stuff.
While all life has value and Russert's death is tragic news for those who actually knew him (family, friends) I'm at a loss for understanding the larger outpouring of emotion and even the occasionally self-righteous defense thereof among a few here. For instance, when Peggy McGilligan states:
"I can't understand how anyone couldn't possibly help but like the guy. Yeah, I know we’re a pretty cynical bunch here in Washington. But please, let’s remember what civility we do have left in reaction to Tim’s death.'
I can't help but think that this characteristic sentiment represents some kind of wistful and undue sense of appreciation for what basically amounts a sort of "Forrest Gump-ification" of political journalism. Russert fancied caricaturing himself as The Everyman, and in all likelihood he did so with the utmost sincerity. But how his death therefore amounts to a huge loss for anyone else personally, or to the cause of a civil, but intelligent political discourse in particular, is difficult for me to understand.
I think it has more to do with a lack of truly decent guys (and women) to look up to in the broader society and popular culture, but maybe that's just me. Should we really project that need onto someone who cheerfully presided over the death of the MSM and its lackadaisical role in abetting America's dysfunctional political culture, just because he did so more congenially than anyone else? I just don't get it.
We should have civil political discourse. We just shouldn't value that more than having an intellectually honest political discourse or at the expense of legitimizing soap operas masquerading as political journalism.
Here's the bottom line:
Chimps don't like it when the alpha chimps die.
Because it reminds them of their mortality.
And it reminds them that all the bullshit they do to evade the fact of death doesn't work.
And it reminds them that all the bullshit they do to try to either tear down the ones higher than them or to try to become one of those higher than them doesn't matter either. And it didn't work for those higher than them.
They still died.
And it reminds them that all the kowtowing they do to those higher than them doesn't change the fact that the ones higher than them are chimps, too, who are going to die.
So for all those reasons, people really hate it when those in privileged positions die. Even if they also secretly enjoy the fact that someone higher than them died.
Chimps are consistent that way.
A rational person doesn't care one way or the other when someone dies unless that person was 1) useful to the species, or 2) useful to them. A rational person would prefer that nobody dies (or deserve to die) - but they recognize that's not the case at the moment.
They also recognize that it should be the case, and support the science and technology necessary to make it so.
Chimps, on the other hand, just emote about all this.
As I posted on Eschaton:
"The man deserves some respect."
Well, I'm saying precisely the opposite. You are simply begging the question by saying that. I'm saying that Tim Russert was a bad man and his dying doesn't erase that and doesn't erase the need for accountability.
Here's how all of you champions of politesse are begging the question. If Russert truly was a bad man who was complicit in the launching of an unjust war based on a hoax that got a million people killed, then you would have to have a very EXTREME conception of the cleansing power of death to absolve Russert of that responsibility merely because he died.
Are there people who were worse than Russert? You bet your ass there were, starting with George Bush and Dick Cheney. But Russert played an important supporting role in the production. But let's be generous and say that Russert is only one of 1000 elite Villagers who bear significant responsibility for the evil outcome of that unjust war that killed a million human beings. Then perhaps we might discount his responsibility by a factor of 1000. That still leaves him responsible for the moral equivalent of 1000 deaths. That's a crude calculation and he his certainly not as responsible as people like Bush. But he enabled war criminals like Bush. He is the moral equivalent of Leni Riefenstahl. Let's say he is only 100th as responsible as those who are the most responsible. Well then he is responsible, on this crude calculation, for the equivalent of 10 deaths. Well, 1 death is enough to get you the death penalty in the state I come from.
That analysis is obviously grossly oversimplified but I believe it strongly suggests at least within a moral order of magnitude the scale of the offenses I, and others on this board, are accusing Russert of.
So all of you all who want us to just make nice....well, many of us just aren't ready to make nice about a crime of this scale. I haven't seen much contrition.
The bottom line is that you're going to have to appeal to a lot more than politesse and the cleansing power of death before you have succeeded in absolving Russert of partial but significant responsibility for ghastly, ghoulish war crimes and making him worthy of respect.
I seldom read Matt's blog. I came over because the comments to this post are being linked all across the right wing 'sphere. I had to see this for myself.
Way to go, guys. You've demonstrated what a sorry waste of oxygen most of Matt's readers are. You've proven every sorry thing that any right winger ever said about folks of Matt's ilk, from their faux compassion to their faux sense of justice to their intellectual and moral bankruptcy to their genuine hatred of anyone who contradicts them.
To those who provided some pushback against the horde of pinheads, good for you, but isn't it time you found a decent blog to read?
Frew: care to provide an argument or are we supposed to take your declarations on faith?
Frew's believes that excoriations of Russert might diminish us in the eyes of right-wingers--as though I'm supposed to give a fuck.
What's most upsetting to me is the possibility that the tenacity of this debate will serve to over-inflate Russert's importance. I think we should be clear: Russert was an empty-headed power-slavish twit, but just one among many--an utterly unexceptional figure. There were Russerts before him and quite systematically there shall be Russerts to come. In the history of American mass-media Timmy is but a footnote.
Comments closed June 27, 2008.
| 
Heads in the Sand
And why does this upset me as much as it does?
Posted by laborlibert | June 13, 2008 4:14 PM