A Bridge Too Far

Via Justin Logan, John McCain on patriotism: "Patriotism is deeper than its symbolic expressions, than sentiments about place and kinship that move us to hold our hands over our hearts during the national anthem. It is putting the country first, before party or personal ambition, before anything."

Like Justin, I'm going to have to cop to not being so patriotic that there's literally nothing I would put above my country. Indeed, I believe that most Americans, whether secular or religious, put stock in some kind of universal ethical obligations that extend beyond national boundaries.

Comments

"It is putting the country first, before party or personal ambition, before anything."

Putting it before everything is a pretty damn frightening notion. That's the sort of reasoning that not only tolerates genocide, it's the sort of reasoning which designs it.

Posted by Keith M Ellis | July 3, 2008 6:15 PM

doesn't mccain's definition sound like something you would hear from a leader from a communist state

Posted by Rob | July 3, 2008 6:16 PM

Has anyone pointed out yet that McCain's new slogan "Country First" is an obvious attempt to play the patriotism card against Obama? And, more covertly, the xenophobic, "he's not a real American" card? And, also, it's awfully similar to "America first" (ironic that, given McCain's wildly interventionist foreign policy)?

Seems like some Democrat out there should point this out, if it hasn't been done already.

Posted by C | July 3, 2008 6:17 PM

"It is putting the country first, before party or personal ambition, before anything. And therefore, it follows logically--as night follows day--that we must remain in Iraq forever, continue the use of torture, and cut taxes on the top 1%."

Posted by James Gary | July 3, 2008 6:19 PM

That's bull. You know that most americans do not put their global ethical obligations above the country. They do, however put their standards of living above it. They put their mothers above it. They put their kids above it by opposing enlistment in the military. We are a patriotic nation in symbols only. Other than that, we are a for-ourselves nation. Which may be about the most patriotic thing about us.

Posted by Mike | July 3, 2008 6:21 PM

Yeah, a lot of people would probably put their families first if it ever required that. What "putting your country first" is supposed to mean isn't even really clear. What if fighting a war is bad for the US? Wouldn't opposing the president who got us into that war be putting the US first?

Posted by Reality Man | July 3, 2008 6:21 PM

I've said it here before, but I'll say it again: the philosopher Berdayev was right in distinguishing between partiotism & nationalism. The former is a virtue, but one that is felt and exercised under the umbrella of those "universal ethical obligations". The latter must always come second. It is NOT the kind of "my country, right or wrong" gambit exemplified in the opportunism and and totalism of that McCain quote. Obama's citation of the old "love my country always, my government only when it deserves it" is a far more real expression of patriotism than McCain's rhetoric.

Posted by gsk+ | July 3, 2008 6:22 PM

Patriotism is choosing to place your community's needs and interest above your own. Nationalism is choosing to place your community's needs above someone else's.

Posted by lowflite | July 3, 2008 6:25 PM

Patriotism is choosing to place your community's needs and interest above your own. Nationalism is choosing to place your community's needs above someone else's.

Posted by lowflite | July 3, 2008 6:25 PM

Weirdly, the McCain message seems to be all about honoring those who exemplify country before self, without asking/demanding that their audience sacrifice. You're asked to nominate a worthy patriot, not get up and join the military (or volunteer in a school, or whatever) yourself. I don't think it's catching on. (Yes, I know Mondale's honest answer on taxes filleted him, but after 9/11 I think our government has really missed out on asking people eager to make a sacrifice and demonstrate their patriotism--Go Shopping didn't do it.)

Posted by Deborah | July 3, 2008 6:25 PM

Answer--Of course there are higher ethical/moral ideals that trump the values that surround 'America'. This is why there is a distinction between patriotism and nationalism. The thought expressed by Mr McCain is nationalism, not patriotism. The true patriot holds our country to high standards and criticises America when we fail morally.

Question--How many Americans think Mexico is a great place to spend the 4th of July?

Posted by JohnMcC | July 3, 2008 6:29 PM

Has anyone pointed out yet that McCain's new slogan "Country First" is an obvious attempt to play the patriotism card against Obama?

"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you -- country first."

Posted by pseudonymous in nc | July 3, 2008 6:33 PM

The obvious countermove is to say "I have a different idea of where this country should be going."

Posted by Bengt Larsson | July 3, 2008 6:39 PM

I'm usually as pessimistic as anyone about the public falling for this type of yahoo-message, but I just don't see it this year, even with a compliant press. People think things are seriously screwed up in this country, and I almost think this kind of transparent appeal is counter-productive.

Plus, every time I see Obama lately he has a lapel pin on, so obviously he is a super-patriot.

Posted by Andruw | July 3, 2008 6:40 PM

Neither patriotism or nationalism is worth a shit. And there really isn't a penny's worth of difference between them.

Both put a meaningless abstraction ahead of rational thought.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | July 3, 2008 6:41 PM

I think the criticism here has it wrong. We're so eager to associate the Republicans with chauvinism, abuse of nationalism, and imperialism that everyone's reading that into what he said and, in the process, missing what's really heinous. What he said is admirable but hypocritical.

Patriotism as opposed to empty symbolism, an excuse for party politics, and self-serving covers? Isn't this the election that's been about whether Obama's the Islamacist Candidate because he wouldn't wear a lapel pin all the time? Isn't this the party who has kept calling opposition to the war in Iraq and to President Bush un-American? Isn't this the candidate who turns on a dime to get elected, except for the constancy of using his war service as credentials of leadership against the supposed terrorist enemies of the stae?

Posted by John Haber | July 3, 2008 7:00 PM

"Both put a meaningless abstraction ahead of rational thought."

And we all know that rational thought isn't a meaningless abstraction.

Posted by Keith M Ellis | July 3, 2008 7:15 PM

pseudonymous in nc,

Any excuse for an Arrested Development paraphrase is a good excuse.

Posted by James | July 3, 2008 7:19 PM

And there really isn't a penny's worth of difference between them.
Both put a meaningless abstraction ahead of rational thought.

I think it is important to be able to distinguish between motives. Patriotism necessitates self sacrifice. Recognizing that helps undercut complete categories of irrational thought.

Posted by lowflite | July 3, 2008 7:28 PM

"It is putting the country first, before party or personal ambition, before anything."

Of course, it logically follows that if you put your country before anything, you must therefore put your country before your God and your family. So one could logically argue that John McCain therefore puts his country before his family and before Jesus, whether it's true or not.

I can't wait for someone to ask Senator McCain, "Why do you hate Jesus?"

Posted by JDinBalt | July 3, 2008 7:53 PM

What Keith said. Anyone who genuinely put their country before anything else would surely be considered weird at best and more likely a sociopath. Before family? Before loved ones? Before God, if you're that way inclined? Before morality? That's insane and it's certainly not a patriotism worth defending.

Posted by Ginger Yellow | July 3, 2008 8:11 PM

How does Cindy McCain's pledge to start buying $3000 American dresses instead of $3000 foreign dresses if she is first lady fit in with his definition of patriotism, or his "Country First" slogan?
Hey, does that sound a little like "Countrywide"?

Posted by flounder | July 3, 2008 8:25 PM

McCain's rhetoric does indeed sound like dictators...like Communists or even Nazis.

Oh yeah, I hope the religious right knows that McCain would have everyone put country before God.

Posted by cm | July 3, 2008 9:22 PM

Before family? Before loved ones?

I guess you can't understand the married men with children, or hell everybody, who landed on the beaches of Normandy or Okinawa.

Unless you use some complicated rationalization that those guys were still putting family first.

Posted by bob mcmanus | July 3, 2008 9:27 PM

Personally, I think of patriotism as a sentiment, nationalism as an ideology. Nationalism is a sort of cerebral cortex-based set of ideas and principles. Patriotism is more of limbic system-based set of emotive associations and feelings.

Generally, patriotism is harder to blame for when things go wrong, because it doesn't really have programmatic implications. It's sort of like how general sentiments in favor of fairness and equality are a lot harder to blame for the Great Leap Forward than communist ideology.

Posted by Julian Elson | July 3, 2008 9:42 PM

I must take issue with lowflite's distinction:

"Patriotism is choosing to place your community's needs and interest above your own. Nationalism is choosing to place your community's needs above someone else's."

So patriotism is the same as altruism? That is not what people mean by the word. Your definition succeeds at making patriotism entirely admirable, but that is due more to semantic jugglery than any observable human behavior. The real distinction seems to be: "patriotism" is "nationalism" stripped of its negative connotations, although what is connoted by nationalism does not disappear.

I'm an expat, so I'm a bit touchy on this subject. I think I'm a good person. I don't know if I'm patriotic by the prevailing standards of the day.

I think we've become wayyyy too preoccupied with the idea of patriotism. What is important is that people try to be good--kind, energetic, generous (for which I would use the word "liberal" if our political taxonomy were different), well-mannered, courteous, of good taste, etc--and occasionally succeed in this effort.

In all honesty, I get really annoyed by all this damn talk about patriotism. I'm home in Milwaukee for the summer. Milwaukee is culturally rather boring, but the people are nice. I think modern life has become unfortunately mechanized and mediated. But I do not at all consider myself anti-American. If I am anti-American, I don't really know what I'm for. I want America to be better than it is, and in some ways more like it once was. I am proud of America's dynamism and its diversity, even if these things can have downsides. But when I hear all this talk about patriotism, with the underlying assumption always being that patriotism is an essential part, if not the essential part, of character, I get really annoyed. America is worse than Britain for making so many obnoxious demands on its citizens. Not worse in the aggregate, but in this particular area. You should not have to be so preoccupied with loving the state, of however we make consider Americans as a corporate entity; I particularly resent some semi-literate boob on Fox or CNN insinuating I'm a bad person because I find lapel pins tacky. I am a small "l" liberal; I like liberty and I like liberality, because I believe that the best society is that in which individuality flourishes most healthily and fully. The stress on patriotism is anti-individualistic.

Posted by Robert | July 3, 2008 9:48 PM

Putting Country ahead of everything ought to put McCain in tight with the Christian Right.

(Is there nothing in political rhetoric but vague attitudinizing?)

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | July 3, 2008 9:54 PM

Oh yeah, I hope the religious right knows that McCain would have everyone put country before God.

They don't see any difference for Americans. God is an American and America is the New Israel which needs to look after the old Israel to keep God from breaking his promises. That's the core of the religious right. It's not dominionism, that's fringe. Dispensationalism is the lodestone of modern American evangelical Christianity and would see no contradiction there.

Posted by Ed Marshall | July 3, 2008 9:54 PM

McCain is basically saying that patriotism is a willingness to die for your country; which would mean that only soldiers and the like are real patriots.

That's an intense view of patriotism, but not a very pragmatic one. Most of the decisions that we have to make in this country do not entail immediate life or death for the decider. Therefore, if what McCain is saying is right, most of us operate in a patriotism-free zone, until we end up being drafted and sent to Vietnam or wherever.

I like Obama's definition better. First of all, it attaches to people, not 'our country'. Second, you can use it in everyday life. Basically, Obama's patriotism is just a secularized version of Christian ethics.

Posted by lampwick | July 3, 2008 10:03 PM

Then again there are some of us that would like to see the entire fascist, xenophobic, polluting, warmongering, imperialistic organism laid to waste. The world would be a better place for it.

Posted by steve duncan | July 3, 2008 10:17 PM

'In the sacrifice of soldiers, the fierce brotherhood of firefighters, and the bravery and generosity of ordinary citizens, we have glimpsed what a new culture of responsibility could look like. We want to be a nation that serves goals larger than self. We've been offered a unique opportunity, and we must not let this moment pass."

--George Bush, in his 2002 "axis of evil" SOTU.

So good to see that John "cause greater than self" McCain is picking up Bush's torch. Pretty much verbatim.

Posted by anonymiss | July 3, 2008 10:44 PM

Indeed, I believe that most Americans, whether secular or religious, put stock in some kind of universal ethical obligations that extend beyond national boundaries.

Patriotism is the willingness to engage in certain kinds of ritual behavior, including the ritual of saying you put your country above everything else, even when it's not true. Also included is the the ritual of pretending to believe in the magical notion that one's country is so fantabulously excellent and exceptional that it is simply impossible for the interests and policies of one's country to come into conflict with one's cherished, universal ethical obligations, even though anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that this perfect magical alignment does not obtain in the actual world.

Posted by Dan Kervick | July 3, 2008 11:19 PM

Mr Hacker, you say patriotism and nationalism are 'not worth a shit' because they 'interfer with rational thought'. That's an interesting thought. Sounds like a character from a Heinlein book--I can almost hear old Lazarus Long growling it. Also kind of resonates with the cold, calculating, self-interested individualism of Ayn Rand.

Seems to me that the parts of us that we like the best and honor the most are irrational. Patriotism is a form of love. Which is a hard thing to criticize and yet makes us do many many things that are not in our own self-interest. And we like it that way; we are not robots or economic computers.

Did I mis-understand?

Posted by JohnMcC | July 3, 2008 11:41 PM

Mr Hacker, you say patriotism and nationalism are 'not worth a shit' because they 'interfer with rational thought'. That's an interesting thought. Sounds like a character from a Heinlein book--I can almost hear old Lazarus Long growling it. Also kind of resonates with the cold, calculating, self-interested individualism of Ayn Rand.

Seems to me that the parts of us that we like the best and honor the most are irrational. Patriotism is a form of love. Which is a hard thing to criticize and yet makes us do many many things that are not in our own self-interest. And we like it that way; we are not robots or economic computers.

Did I mis-understand?

Posted by JohnMcC | July 3, 2008 11:41 PM

Since patiotism has on its historical ledger hundreds of millions of corpses, and on the positive side nothing more than parades and fireworks shows, I have to question whether it has ANY utility as a concept whatsoever.

Posted by Steve S. | July 3, 2008 11:44 PM

That should be "patriotism" and not "patiotism" in my last post. Veneration of the patio is of course something we can all agree on.

Posted by Steve S. | July 3, 2008 11:51 PM

This is just another example of McCain seeing the world through an entrenched military lens.

He was born into the military lens, raised with it and lived his young adult life through it. Anyone that has known a *military family* understands this guy completely.

Everything is black and white to them. McCain is not unique in his thinking, just very entrenched military.

Posted by G Davis | July 4, 2008 1:46 AM

Reading Lefties trying to define patriotism is funny. Like French exploring the meaning of US baseball.

What Keith said. Anyone who genuinely put their country before anything else would surely be considered weird at best and more likely a sociopath. Before family? Before loved ones? Before God, if you're that way inclined? Before morality? That's insane and it's certainly not a patriotism worth defending.
Posted by Ginger Yellow

1. Before family? Before loved ones?

Yep, if the country calls, the higher duty is to protecting the nation than stay as a provider and companion to family. If too many in time of need hide behind the wife's skirts for the sake of keeping a good job and growing their family wealth and not enough voluntarily sacrifice, then the Draft comes into action. In any case, soldiers could be gone for years, leave families suffering, even destitute if they die or come back crippled.
That is the way it is in every country and expected in dire circumstance - nation comes before family.
Transnationalist Jews and others that see nation as a silly relic of the past are shit out of luck. They don't like the "patriotic rules and norms" they can run off to Israel or Sweden (both of which have two year mandatory military service and over a decade of reservist obligations after that if major conflict happens.

2. Before God, if you're that way inclined?

Sure. If you believe that God commands you to only love fellow like-minded believers and no nation, then you are radical Muslims, or only a cult that exists only on forebearance of others in a nation. If you claim your deep faith prevents military service, then countries are happy to find ways of allowing you to fulfill alternate service - some quite risky like being a combat medic or prison guard labor conscription construction or just nasty like being a hospital orderly.
God does not form an acceptable "patriotic cop-out clause".

3. Before morality? That's insane and it's certainly not a patriotism worth defending.

Sure it is. Patriotism may require that people dispense with "equal treatment" and favor Americans 1st for jobs, welfare even though needy Africans need it more. Morality may say that people may deserve rescue equally, but when conflict breaks out, the French rescue forces come for the French first, same with US and Canadians, or the Chinese...and rescue others only when they have none of THEIR OWN left needing rescue.

In war, morality changes. By necessity, war is more amoral than norms enforced in peacetime. We hold our guys are worth more than enemy, or enemy civilians - much to the shock of Lefties who babble about it is better American GIs die than "innocent children! mothers! of those enemy we fight."
We may kill civilians deliberately in war if it is justified as the nature of the tactical or strategic mission, or a much thought about math where we consider it unacceptable to lose X numbers of American or allied troops to save Y civilians. The weighed necessity of times when inflicting collateral damage is unavoidable, and necessary.
Besides incidents like Sherman's March through the South being amoral in pursuit of a higher patriotic set of morals of quickly winning and finishing a war. Strategic bombing is the same, the guys like McGovern and the A-bomb flight crews were true patriots for ending the war sooner and saving OUR sides lives. So is Clinton and the UN accepting a few hundred thousand Iraqis dead from the imposition of Sanctions in the face of Saddam's intransigence.

Patriotism, in pursuit of vital interests and safeguarding vital values - may require amoral behavior as a means to a higher end. Bubba believed it was part of Patriotism and serving the best interests of nations and norms, so did FDR and Nixon.

Posted by chris ford | July 4, 2008 3:32 AM

"Reading Lefties trying to define patriotism is funny. Like French exploring the meaning of US baseball."

Racist, anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim homophobes hate huge swaths of the American people for no good reason and are thus unpatriotic. Such people are good Germans, not good Americans.

Posted by Reality Man | July 4, 2008 3:54 AM

And so my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world, ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man. Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world ask of us here the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward. With history the final judge of our deeds. Let us go forth to lead the land we love.

Posted by chris ford is cowardly blackguard | July 4, 2008 4:13 AM

I guess you can't understand the married men with children, or hell everybody, who landed on the beaches of Normandy

Er, I'm fairly sure they didn't have their wives and kids along with them. They were safe at home in Britain (or, for a minority, the US). It wasn't Bring Your Daughter To An Opposed Beach Landing Day.

Posted by ajay | July 4, 2008 5:23 AM

Ellis: "And we all know that rational thought isn't a meaningless abstraction."

For you it is.

Moron.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | July 4, 2008 5:57 AM

Kennedy: "And so my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

The best rejoinder to this bullshit is the one from the old martial arts master in the "Remo Williams" line of pulp fiction.

Having Kennedy quoted to him, he replied: "And where's he now?"

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | July 4, 2008 6:00 AM

I certainly would never call myself particularly patriotic, and to the extent I do admire some nationalisms they tend not to be the ones associated with _my_ country. Nevertheless I wouldn't say that a certain modest kind of patriotism is incompatible with Christian social ethics. Loving one's country with an inordinate love is of course evil, as is every other form of inordinate devotion that leads us to forget morality. But I do think there is such a think as an ordinate love for one's country that can be a good thing.

The country should come behind the common demands of morality, of course, and behind God. I would place it about on an equivalent level with the family- there are certain aspects of our lives in which our familial obligations take priority, and other aspects in which our country's demands take priority. In regards to Sartre's famous dilemma of joining the Resistiance vs. caring for one's dying grandmother I suppose I would say that the former is a better thing to do, but more because the Resistance embodied the demands of morality rather than the demands of a prticular nation.

Chris Ford's little screed above is truly strange and more than a little disturbing.

Posted by Hector | July 4, 2008 8:33 AM

McCain's quote comes dangerously close to Mussolini's:

"The fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value.."

and

“Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato” (“Everything within the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.”)

Posted by Russell | July 4, 2008 9:20 AM

As long as we're throwing quotes, here's Spinoza:

[H]e who practices justice and charity in accordance with God’s com- mand is fulfillingGod’s law, fromwhich justice and charity have the force of law and command. And here I acknowledge no distinction whether it is by the natural light of reason or by revelation that God teaches and commands the true practice of justice and charity, for itmatters not how the practice of these virtues is revealed to us as long as it holds the place of supreme authority and is the supreme law for men. So that if I now show that justice and charity can acquire the force of law and command only through the right of the state, I can readily draw the conclusion – since the state’s right is vested in the sovereign alone – that religion can acquire the force of law only from the decree of those who have the right to command, and that God has no special sovereignty over men save through the medium of those who hold sovereignty. (TTP, 219–220) (my emphasis)

Of course, in a democracy or republic the people are sovereign. And "religion" can be secular, as "God" can be a deism...sort of. And explaining why a personal morality becomes also a universal morality only thru the medium of a state and patriotism (committment to a sovereign or compact), even if at the level of the Geneva & Hague Conventions, is kinda complicated.

Posted by bob mcmanus | July 4, 2008 10:00 AM

"Love for Christ comes before all else in the mission of an archbishop, says Benedict XVI...'The condition of service for all pastors is love for Christ, which must come before everything,' said the Pope."--Zenit, 6/30/08

Do you think John McCain made this statement in response to the Pope's recent comments? Is John McCain worried about POPERY? Is he asking Catholics to make a choice in who they put first--the Holy Church, or the State? Is he setting the groundwork for Americans to make such a choice in his Presidency?

Can you be both a Catholic priest and a good American, according to John McCain? Orcan you not be both? Must you, as a Catholic Priest, break your holy vows of obedience and disobey the pope and in your heart and in your actions, and put nation before Christ?

Why is he bringing this up now? Is it in response to the Pope's statements 3 days ago? How does he expect Catholics to square the pope's comments with his?

Posted by anonymiss | July 4, 2008 10:22 AM

"Nevertheless I wouldn't say that a certain modest kind of patriotism is incompatible with Christian social ethics. Loving one's country with an inordinate love is of course evil, as is every other form of inordinate devotion that leads us to forget morality. But I do think there is such a think as an ordinate love for one's country that can be a good thing."

What about loving Christianity too much, which you do vis-a-vis your country? Your opinion about how all Americans should all line up behind your vision of Christianity because you say so because your life was missing so much you had to convert is downright evil.

Posted by Reality Man | July 4, 2008 11:30 AM

From Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin series: "But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either 'my country, right or wrong,' which is infamous, or 'my country is always right,' which is imbecile."

Posted by jackson | July 4, 2008 12:31 PM

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson

Posted by stu_edgar | July 4, 2008 7:09 PM

Reality Man,

Um, I don't ask that all Americans line up behind my version of Christianity, or any version whatsoever. I don't care what faith you profess. I do ask that you conform to the basic demands of our innate moral intuitions, which are not confined to Christians or to those who profess any particular religion whatsoever. The natural connections between labor and reward, the natural obligations to feed the hungry and heal the sick, the right of the laborer over the product of his labor, the duty to protect the natural environment, the connection between legal punishment and the expiation of moral guilt, the natural connection between sex, love, and commitmnt, the yearning to work as part of a community rather than an individual, the value of childbearing, the duty of father and mother to their offspring, these are things which appeal to innate feelings and intuitions that are common to people of all faiths. (Please take a quick look at history or anthropology if you disbeleve me). For this reason they can and should be appealed to by our public morality and legality as well.

A man is certainly expected to put his God before his country, it would be a strange man who does otherwise.

Posted by Hector | July 5, 2008 9:14 AM