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Dark Knight Politics

24 Jul 2008 11:19 am

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Eric Alterman says:

p.s. I saw The Dark Knight yesterday afternoon, and I think it pulled off the neat trick of being both libertarian and fascistic, which is to say it is damn confused ... not bad, but not consistent either.

I'm not entirely sure that's right for reasons I'll go into in the spoiler-filled section of the post left below the fold. But for starters let me say that I think that a well-made film that, rather than being topical as such, instead chooses to deal with topical themes often doesn't really have a political "point of view." Instead, it makes everybody think about the present political situation but we'll probably reach different conclusions about it just as we reach different conclusions about the real world.

As for the film, I think Spencer Ackerman basically gets this right -- Dark Knight's Batman sees himself the way Dick Cheney sees himself. Batman understands himself as a reluctant warrior who would like nothing better than to retire and turn the city over to Harvey Dent. Batman knows that some of the corners he cuts to get the job done make him less than heroic. But Batman is proud to be less than heroic. In fact, Barman is more than heroic. Heroes and heroism are crucial -- crucial because the masses need inspirational heroes -- but the heroes need to be backstopped by folks who are hard enough to walk on the dark side and to accept the public's scorn.

But does that mean that the movie is saying that Cheney is right? Well I think that's complicated. I would say that one important reason Cheney is wrong, is that we're not actually faced with a Joker-style supervillain. Nor is the Bush administration genuinely made up of such self-sacrificing characters as Batman (who, e.g., could have selfishly chosen to save the love of his life and allow his rival for her affections to die but chose not to because he thought that would be the wrong choice for the city). Nor, for that matter, is the United States' position vis-a-vis Islamist radicals nearly so tenuous as Gotham's vis-a-vis organized crime. I think Cheney would look at the movie and say "see -- this is what we're doing." I look at the movie and say "see -- if you were fighting a comic book bad guy and you were a comic book hero then your policies would make sense."

Shifting a bit away from the issues of the day, though, one interesting thing about the film is what a difference it makes to rip Batman out of the context of the broader DC universe. The DCU's other anchor character, Superman, is far more powerful than Batman. And of course Superman's hardly alone in this regard -- Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, etc. all wield vast power and even lesser lights like the Flash outpace Batman by far.

In that context, Batman rather uniquely doesn't suffer from a substantial legitimacy problem. You don't look at Batman and say "no man should wield this much power" in a world where Superman can see through walls. It's those other guys who have legitimacy problems and Batman is one of the important checks on them -- especially on Superman, who specifically entrusts a kryptonite ring to Batman for that purpose. This does pose a "who watches the watchmen" issue explored in Tower of Babel and elsewhere, but in a basic sense we're supposed to be glad that Batman has so many gizmos not because we're naive about power but because in the context of all these super-powered super-heroes it's genuinely less threatening than such a person would be in the real world.

The movies don't bring this context up without getting explicit as to whether or not we're supposed to think of Batman as living in a universe that contains other super-heroes but the answer to that question ought to make a big difference to how you think about him.

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Comments (127)

Interesting points. Here's a clarifying question that maybe other commenters will answer for me: I thought Batman decided to go save Rachel but unexpectedly found Harvey Dent at that location because the Joker had deliberately given him wrong information about which person was at which place. But here Matthew characterizes Batman as selflessly choosing to save Dent instead of Rachel because Dent's more important to the city. I only saw the movie once, so I could be wrong. Which is correct?

Actually Batman does (inexplicably) choose to save Rachel, but the Joker lied about their locations, so he ends up with Dent.

I agree with Tom. From what I picked up, the Joker switched Rachel and Dent.

I'm fairly certain Batman intended to go after Rachel and let Dent die. That's what he says to Gordon as he storms out of the MCU.

The Joker switched the addresses. Because he knew Batman would go after Rachel, but he wanted Dent to survive and endure loss so he could be better corrupted.

That was fast. Thanks, dude.

Matt, the movie got you!

The Joker told Batman the WRONG locations of Harvey and Rachel. Batman intended to save Rachel (he said so as he left the police station) and ended up in the wrong spot! The Joker was a force of plans-going-wrong elemental nature, so naturally his idea was to make the person Batman most wanted to live die.

Tom, that's how I understood it as well. Batman specifically told Gordon to go get Dent, and he was going to save Rachel. The Joker mixed up the two locations because he's a devious motherf*cker.

Matt, I had no idea you were such a comic book geek. Bravo.

I think Batman seems to be taking the position of a moderate. Let's consider TDK to be a metaphor for the government. Bruce Wayne has all this power at his disposal, and its a balancing act between using your executive power too much (ie FISA) and Batman is making the case that there are circumstances that the government should exercise that power. I thought that was pretty clear throughout the whole move, while it still was aware of the costs of such actions.

http://seanfucious.blogspot.com

Yes, Batman chooses Rachel. He tells Gordon (who asks "Which one?") on the way out of the interrogation room that he's going to save her. When he sees it's Dent at the Rachel address, he and Dent both yell "NO!"

I thought Batman chose to save Dent. He virtually says so later on by going on about how important Dent is to the city.

Another thing: Morgan Freeman was a bit uneasy about using the sonar surveillance to keep tabs on the city's crooks, but the surveillance ended up allowing Batman to stop the Joker from blowing up the ferries. So, I guess Bush and Cheney were right, and we should lay off the cell phone companies.

"Never again!!!!"

Also, I don't think that The Dark Knight holds Batman up as a paragon at all. In fact, I think the film is trying to show the problems with allowing emotion to overrule rationality, especially when pursuing justice.

Batman behaves emotionally and mirrors the failures that our government has made when doing the same while dealing with terror: his anger leads him to beat a false confession out of The Joker (regarding the location of Dent and Rachel) which leads to Rachel's death.

After this event, Bruce Wayne seems humbled and chastised. He realizes his errors, the flawed judgments. He seems committed to removing himself from emotional entanglements and allows himself to take the fall for Dent's crimes for the greater good. In the end, he realizes that personal sacrifice is necessary, and the Batman of the third movie will be very different.

Also, I don't think that The Dark Knight holds Batman up as a paragon at all. In fact, I think the film is trying to show the problems with allowing emotion to overrule rationality, especially when pursuing justice.

Batman behaves emotionally and mirrors the failures that our government has made when doing the same while dealing with terror: his anger leads him to beat a false confession out of The Joker (regarding the location of Dent and Rachel) which leads to Rachel's death.

After this event, Bruce Wayne seems humbled and chastised. He realizes his errors, the flawed judgments. He seems committed to removing himself from emotional entanglements and allows himself to take the fall for Dent's crimes for the greater good. In the end, he realizes that personal sacrifice is necessary, and the Batman of the third movie will be very different.

The most overtly fascist movie of modern times was Starship Troopers. It's like Beverly Hills 90210 meets Triumph of the Will. I recommend that everyone pick it up on netflicks and bask in its glory. You will never see more beautiful people figuring out that the only true path to citizenship is military service in the pursuit of a genocidal war against subhumans. The Dark Knight can't touch that.

Batman didn't intend to let either of them to die. Gordon was going after whichever one Batman did not.

As far as political / social lessons are concerned, though, I feel the movie picked up on one really interesting idea: Batman, by being who he is, and by using the tactics he uses, attracts criminals like the Joker. In the same way, criminals like bin Laden put people like Dick Cheney in power, and Dick Cheney in power helps people like bin Laden to come to and maintain power.

The question is, how do you break the cycle?

Also, I don't think that The Dark Knight holds Batman up as a paragon at all. In fact, I think the film is trying to show the problems with allowing emotion to overrule rationality, especially when pursuing justice.

Batman behaves emotionally and mirrors the failures that our government has made when doing the same while dealing with terror: his anger leads him to beat a false confession out of The Joker (regarding the location of Dent and Rachel) which leads to Rachel's death.

After this event, Bruce Wayne seems humbled and chastised. He realizes his errors, the flawed judgments. He seems committed to removing himself from emotional entanglements and allows himself to take the fall for Dent's crimes for the greater good. In the end, he realizes that personal sacrifice is necessary, and the Batman of the third movie will be very different.

Damn, now you guys are making me re-think it. I remember Batman giving Gordon the address, but I can't remember if he gave him the name as well. I guess one would have to go back and check between the addresses that the Joker gave and see if it corresponds to the addresses that Harvey Dent/Two Face gives to Gordon later on.

I sort of thought that the closest you got to a real-life issue was the "echolocation" system Batman designed using the cell phones chatter of Gotham at the end, which caught me right away as being a nod to FIS. Fox is horrified by it, and even threatens to resign because Batman shouldn't have that much power, but the key difference seems to be that [i]Batman[/i] knows he shouldn't have that much power. So only Fox can access the system, not Batman, and Fox can activate a self-destruct mechanism into it. So, in essence, Batman is the anti-Bush. Even if he cedes that extraordinary times call for extraordinary, even nefarious means, he also recognizes that there must still be some checks, even on the hero. Which is of course the polar opposite of the administration's position, that the War on Terror means that there must be no checks whatsoever on the executive.

I sort of thought that the closest you got to a real-life issue was the "echolocation" system Batman designed using the cell phones chatter of Gotham at the end, which caught me right away as being a nod to FIS. Fox is horrified by it, and even threatens to resign because Batman shouldn't have that much power, but the key difference seems to be that [i]Batman[/i] knows he shouldn't have that much power. So only Fox can access the system, not Batman, and Fox can activate a self-destruct mechanism into it. So, in essence, Batman is the anti-Bush. Even if he cedes that extraordinary times call for extraordinary, even nefarious means, he also recognizes that there must still be some checks, even on the hero. Which is of course the polar opposite of the administration's position, that the War on Terror means that there must be no checks whatsoever on the executive.

The movie cannot have a single moral POV because of how it uses the Joker, how the Joker manipulates people around him, and how Two-Face is driven to do what he does.

If you were to introduce a single moral POV, the movie would be pointless.
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You have it right Tom. Although perhaps Matt was saying instead of leaving Harvey behind after Batman found him, to go after Rachel, he saved Harvey nontheless.

Alternatively, thanks to aid from Commissioner Gordon, Batman's choice to go after Rachel wasn't exceedingly selfish since he probably hoped and expected to save both, but based on pure emotion. He loved Rachel, so of course he's gonna go after her.

On another note, Gary Oldman's take on the formerly buffoonish Commissioner Gordon from the earlier films is the unsung hero in this movie. He alone approaches the problems of Gotham from a realist position. He compromises his principles in the pursuit of justice as well (hiring potentially corrupt cops for his Major Crimes Unit; faking his own death, even to his family), but does so without the benefit of operating from the shadows as Batman did, or to a lesser extent, Lucius Fox when he operated Batman's clandestine sonar surveillance system (say that five times fast!). Gordon operated in the open, where he was open to criticism, ridicule, and reprisal. He was indirectly responsible for the death and deformation of Rachel and Harvey, even after Harvey warned him about his crooked cops (And Gordon knew it too. Note when Batmen glides off to take out the Joker in the final showdown, he shouts, "We have to save Harvey! I have to save Harvey!"). He allowed his family to believe he was dead for the sake of a sting operation to catch the Joker (which struck me as largely unnecessary). And he suffered the consequences of his actions. Gordon may not have been the White Knight that Harvey was, or have had all the cool toys and anonymity of the Dark Knight, but he was no less a hero.

Unreal:Actually you're 100% wrong on that. The modern Starship Troopers is actually the opposite. It's a hard critique of that type of government. Those beautiful people were sent out like lambs to a slaughter, without being given the intel or the gear in order to do their job properly. It was basically done on the cheap.

"And this time, we'll win!"

You have it right Tom. Although perhaps Matt was saying instead of leaving Harvey behind after Batman found him, to go after Rachel, he saved Harvey nontheless.

Alternatively, thanks to aid from Commissioner Gordon, Batman's choice to go after Rachel wasn't exceedingly selfish since he probably hoped and expected to save both, but based on pure emotion. He loved Rachel, so of course he's gonna go after her.

On another note, Gary Oldman's take on the formerly buffoonish Commissioner Gordon from the earlier films is the unsung hero in this movie. He alone approaches the problems of Gotham from a realist position. He compromises his principles in the pursuit of justice as well (hiring potentially corrupt cops for his Major Crimes Unit; faking his own death, even to his family), but does so without the benefit of operating from the shadows as Batman did, or to a lesser extent, Lucius Fox when he operated Batman's clandestine sonar surveillance system (say that five times fast!). Gordon operated in the open, where he was open to criticism, ridicule, and reprisal. He was indirectly responsible for the death and deformation of Rachel and Harvey, even after Harvey warned him about his crooked cops (And Gordon knew it too. Note when Batmen glides off to take out the Joker in the final showdown, he shouts, "We have to save Harvey! I have to save Harvey!"). He allowed his family to believe he was dead for the sake of a sting operation to catch the Joker (which struck me as largely unnecessary). And he suffered the consequences of his actions. Gordon may not have been the White Knight that Harvey was, or have had all the cool toys and anonymity of the Dark Knight, but he was no less a hero.

Socctty, I saw it again last night. Batman yells in response to Gordon's question about who he is going after "Rachel!!" Wikipedia has Joker quoted saying "He's at 250 52nd Street. And she's at Avenue X at Cicero," and later Two-Face kidnaps Gordon's family to 250 52nd Street, the place where his family was destroyed (that's a paraphrase.)

I thought the point there was that torture doesn't work against men as devoted and irrational as the Joker. He was going to play his games no matter what Batman did in the interrogation room.

Matt may not have been referring to that particular scene, although if he was I am suddenly rethinking the whole damn thing. Wayne's scene the next morning would suggest he had intended to save Rachel.

I thought what Matt meant was just that Wayne could have chilled out at his party while the Joker showed and killed Dent there. He didn't have to don the batsuit and go into action.

It's like in Batman Begins where he says he can't killm Ra al Ghul but he doesn't have to save him.

Another interesting point I thought was how at the end they were saying how society needs batman so that society can root himm out almost as though the benefit of Batman was not that he was protecting Gotham but that the benefit was that his existence allowed them to reevaluate what the struggle was about. When good guys do things in good ways it potentially creates a confusion about correlation and causation. By having a well intentioned guy do things the wrong way, it shakes up people's complacency.

For me, Cheney and Addington were Harvey Dent. Maybe they weren't as upstanding as Dent was, but they did go nuts after 9-11, just as Dent transformed into Two-Face.

Alterman is a hack. I've never liked him. How is the movie fascistic?

As Matt says, it's a thought-provoking movie, but I don't think it takes any positions really.

The main wager though, was on the selfishness and fearfulness of the average person (and criminal).

The Joker bet that people would turn on each other. I'm with Batman who knew they wouldn't. Fascistic?

(I'm also with Batman, when he didn't hurry the trustfunders into the "panic room") Great movie.

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I cannot speak to whatever specifics are leading people to conclude that there is a political message of one sort or another. I would say that the idea of the superhero in general -- like the cowboy heroes or private detectives who filled a similar role for earlier generations -- illustrates a message best summed up by Bob Dylan: "To live outside the law you must be honest." You can apply that to Batman and Spider-man. You can apply that to Spenser and Philip Marlowe. You can apply that to George Washington, for that matter, and Martin Luther King, Jr.

Of course, a certain kind of mentality will conclude that being outside the law makes them honest -- and then you get Dick Cheney. I rather doubt that Cheney has ever considered the moral ramifications of either Batman or Bob Dylan. Any comparison between Batman and the actions of this administration, to my mind, should be made with the 1960s TV show, especially since both made such free use of the word "evildoers."

Batman for all his psychic damage is driven by a simple determination: to make sure that no one suffers the way he suffered. (In the comics, anyway. Maybe Christopher Nolan doesn't see it that way.) To act on that, he will do whatever it takes regardless of what the law says. The Joker is his mirror image -- determined to make everyone suffer as he has. Obviously he doesn't care what the law has to say about that either.
(Batman, for my money, is the first superhero you wouldn't want to hang out with. Heck, even Wolverine will unwind and have a beer.)

Of course, the fun thing about a broad moral underpinning is that it can be read differently by people with diametrically opposing points of view. That's why, say, Invasion of the Body Snatchers can be read as a warning about both communism and anti-communist hysteria, depending on the inclinations of the viewer. (Not so long ago this blog featured a discussion of the politics of Robocop, which some saw as a conservative movie because of the dominance of corporations in the picture. I always saw it as being about the indomitability of the individual -- a fairly liberal idea. Murphy, incidentally, finds himself outside the law -- but he's honest.)

So -- again, not having seen the film yet -- I suspect any political message anyone takes away may be accidental. Which is what makes for engaging art (even if it's low art.)

Meanwhile, back in politics politics, McCain has changed his position again, claiming that talking about what happened in Iraq shows we just hate the troops.

Shit, they're just mailing it in, now.
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batman as Cheney?!

as a Batman-ophile i take offense to that.

Batman is NOT DICK CHENEY. Batman has morals, for one. He has lines that he will not cross, no matter what it costs him...

One of the traps that Alterman falls into, and something that also cropped up in reviews of IRON MAN, is the expectation that the movie is on some level a piece of propaganda for one viewpoint or another. As a society, we seem to have forgotten that propaganda isn't an aspect of art, entertainment and news but a perversion of it. That's how you get guys like Brian Williams who don't understand that what Rush Limbaugh does isn't just fundamentally different than journalism, it is actually opposed to what journalism is trying to accomplish.

Nolan clearly wants us to think about certain issues, but TDK doesn't appear interested in telling us what to think about them.

Mike

There are just too many themes to talk about like there is only one way of looking at the movie. You can look at what it takes to be an extra-legal power. You can look at what sort of opposition that inspires. You can look at the sacrifices people make. I think someone best summed up this move as "three men have different approaches in dealing with the chaos inherent in a cold and indifferent universe."

But I really like your point about how weird it is that movies only look at Batman by himself, whereas comics look at Batman in a world populated by super-powered guys (not just Superman, but generally far more villains as well). It really changes things.

"You will never see more beautiful people figuring out that the only true path to citizenship is military service..."

Whereas, through the "chickenhawk" argument, the slightly more homely netroots crowd has spent the past five years maintaining exactly the same thing.

Zing!

Harvey Dent is the interesting one. The perception of the hero, but in reality he was the vigilante and in the end his rage and insanity cause him to attack those who were trying to help because they allowed their morals to halt their actions.

"Actually Batman does (inexplicably) choose to save Rachel"

Inexplicably? In Batman Begins, he's willing to almost kill half of the Gotham police force to bring Rachel back to the Batcave quickly before she dies from the fear drug overdose.

Whereas, through the "chickenhawk" argument, the slightly more homely netroots crowd has spent the past five years maintaining exactly the same thing.

I know. Why isn't Matt fighting in Afghanistan?

MBunge wins the thread. After all, when there is a 1:1 correlation between characters, themes, etc. in a fictional movie compared to real life throughout a movie, it just becomes tedious. At that point, it's just better to make a non-fiction movie or a work of historical/contemporary political fiction and give up on the whole super hero thing.

Batman also isn't Cheney because Batman actually went after the Joker instead of spending the entire movie blaming everything on Scarecrow and chasing him around while ignoring the Joker. At least Batman focused on the actual villain causing real harm at that very moment. Cheney decided to bring out his "Greatest Hits" against Hussein, who he had already helped to beat once.

I thought the film is ultimately, if ambiguously and complexly, neoconservative in orientation - the velvet glove of the rule of law requiring the iron fist of vigilantism and state of exception politics. The realities of the necessity for brutal and illegal policies must be kept from the masses through the noble lie even as the gentlemen understand these necessities (Batman must be discredited to maintain the myth of Harvey Dent).

It was the authoritarian Catholic Carl Schmitt that came to my mind while watching the film. Extraterritorial abduction, coercive interrogation techniques, extra-legal violence are all necessary for the functioning of the rule of law. The state can no longer alone exercise the legitimate use of the means of violence. A state of exception obtains where the survival of the society is in question. Perhaps there is a similarity between the Batman and the brown shirt? It's difficult to think of a situation where the ticking-time bomb (or mushroom cloud is a smoking gun) scenario that isn't, in the end, going to confirm the neoconservative worldview (the gentlemen have to get their hands dirty in a chaotic world; Kagan's mars/venus/hobbesian/kantian/US/Europe oppositions). Of course the actions are morally abhorrent, but nonetheless, necessary (and it is this necessity that needs to be challenged). This is a reason why it's so popular among the neoconservative pundits and political class who view themselves as the tough guys making the tough decisions in a chaotic and messy world. It favors decisionism over the liberal interpretation of the rule of law. And of course, such scenarios leave so much out of the "picture."In his review, Keith Uhrlich makes the point that one never has a sense of the citizens of Gotham outside of spectatorship of horror or the perverse prisoners' dilemma at the end of the movie. The logic of the aesthetic choices of the movie and its plot, ultimately, channel the politics of the movie towards a neoconservative vision (regardless of the personal politics of the filmmakers). A movie that wishes to avoid this end will have to include a sense of democratic deliberation and show a way of linking it to the choices of these extreme situations. The slam-bang plot and 24 style pacing preclude any such link. It seems to me that the aesthetic choices in the end overdetermine the politics. I wonder if it is possible to dramatize democratic deliberation in extreme situations in such a way that is both powerful and popular?

I should say that I found the film entertaining (and I cribbed my comment here from another thread).

The Batman of this movie is quite akin to the Jedi of Star Wars episodes 1 through 3. Both agents fight baddies in an extra-legal fashion when the political process is unable to settle on a solution (or sometimes when the state simply lacks the technical wizardry to combat the bad guys). Both agents seem to have a symbiotic relationship with the elected executive: the mayor/district attorney/police chief/chancellor NEED Batman or the Jedi to clean up messes, but more crucially, Batman and Jedi probably would be chary to act without at least some implicit authorization from the politicians. Remember what happens in episode 3 when the Jedi talk about arresting Palpatine and planning an orderly transition for the Republic (thus becoming politicians themselves): Yoda says, "To a dark place this line of thought will lead us. Great care we must take."

The Jedi seem to be more "civilized" about their martial techniques than Batman or Dick Cheney, though, so there is less moral ambiguity with them. In episode 3, Palpatine tries to get Anakin to believe that the Jedi are compromised and "good is only a point of view", but I don't see it. The Jedi seem to advocate a purely Buddhist ethos, while Bruce Wayne's Batman seems to spring from an arrogant sense that he is the Chosen One. (Wayne feels he has been chosen to serve and to sacrifice himself, while Anakin, who is more like Cheney than Wayne is, feels he has been Chosen to rule and conquer).

Hope that made sense

I think Brien hit the key point above. Batman knows the power of the phone survelience is too much and puts Fox in charge and gives him the way to shut it down.

I also think the idea that Dent is the Cheney figure has merit though I'd argue that Cheney was never a good guy who got corrupted, he was pretty much the same evil bastard from day 1.

I have a question.

When Batman spent those three days enabling every cell phone in the city with the high-frequency sonar and foiling the fundamental Shannon limit that would have prevented the physical possibility of all that data arriving back at his central location, was he able to keep up his workout regimen or did he have to lay off for a bit?


Hey Matt,

One thing that seems to be missed about the debate here is that the idea of the hero as operating outside of the law applies not just to Batman, but to all comic book heroes (and really, most heroes in all media). One of the biggest complaints to be made about sci-fi, fantasy, comic book, or any heroic fiction is that it ends up naturally propagandizing for a Rand-ian exceptionalism. A common, almost primary, plot in these stories is an attempt by common people to force the "hero" to adhere to the law. This impulse is almost universally sneered at and undermined by the authors.

I love heroic fiction in all its media, as I largely grew up on it, but it is scary to see our love of heroic fiction affect our attitude towards real life. I'm sure a good number of the people who still hold positive opinions about Bush/Cheney would use a Batman defense...

Hey Matt,

One thing that seems to be missed about the debate here is that the idea of the hero as operating outside of the law applies not just to Batman, but to all comic book heroes (and really, most heroes in all media). One of the biggest complaints to be made about sci-fi, fantasy, comic book, or any heroic fiction is that it ends up naturally propagandizing for a Rand-ian exceptionalism. A common, almost primary, plot in these stories is an attempt by common people to force the "hero" to adhere to the law. This impulse is almost universally sneered at and undermined by the authors.

I love heroic fiction in all its media, as I largely grew up on it, but it is scary to see our love of heroic fiction affect our attitude towards real life. I'm sure a good number of the people who still hold positive opinions about Bush/Cheney would use a Batman defense...

Hey Matt,

One thing that seems to be missed about the debate here is that the idea of the hero as operating outside of the law applies not just to Batman, but to all comic book heroes (and really, most heroes in all media). One of the biggest complaints to be made about sci-fi, fantasy, comic book, or any heroic fiction is that it ends up naturally propagandizing for a Rand-ian exceptionalism. A common, almost primary, plot in these stories is an attempt by common people to force the "hero" to adhere to the law. This impulse is almost universally sneered at and undermined by the authors.

I love heroic fiction in all its media, as I largely grew up on it, but it is scary to see our love of heroic fiction affect our attitude towards real life. I'm sure a good number of the people who still hold positive opinions about Bush/Cheney would use a Batman defense...

Anybody interested in further examinations of Batman's political philosophy should check out Mark Waid's "Kingdom Come", a graphic novel painted by the awesome Alex Ross. It is primarily a Superman story, but Bats (depicted in his mid-60s) plays a major role. Waid's Batman takes Nolan's vision to its darkest possible conclusion.

I think Harvey Dent is Dick Cheney. He rants and raves at the liberals who are unwilling to go the extra mile to get the bad guy, ultimately turning on that liberals family and thinking they are the enemy and that the enemy is his friend.

How's that for a twisted look. :-)

First, as others have stated, Batman does try to rescue Rachel but gets tricked by the Joker.

Second, the comparison between Batman and Dick Cheney is fairly weak. Batman stops Dent from torturing a suspect -- Dick Cheney would never do this. He'd egg him on, if anything.

The movie is also explicitly anti-torture. When Batman tortures Joker, he gets bad information about where Rachel is. When the guard/cop decides to beat up Joker in the jail cell, he plays into Joker's plot and becomes a hostage.

The movie is also somewhat anti-vigilante, demonstrating in multiple sequences that regular folk shouldn't kill even if they think (such as the hospital scene, ferry boat scene) that it will save them. Even Batman takes this to heart when he doesn't allow Joker to die at the end.

I really wish Heath Ledger hadn't died. It would be great to see Joker in the next film. But who knows - maybe another actor (Johnny Depp) could fill those shoes.

Codyak: absolutely, Oldman isn't getting nearly enough props. He's a fantastic actor and lends credibility to the effort. Caine and Freeman were intended to provide that, but do it only in a jokey, familiar way.

One of the traps that Alterman falls into, and something that also cropped up in reviews of IRON MAN, is the expectation that the movie is on some level a piece of propaganda for one viewpoint or another.

Some (many?) people seem to have a problem whereby they cannot interpret reference except as allegory; this is a pretty substantial deficiency, in my opinion.

In keeping with the notion that Batman knows that there must be checks put in place to restrain him, in some sense I think that's what the canonizing of Dent represents. Batman wants Dent to succeed and take the crime fighting mantle away from him both because he doesn't want to do it forever, and because he recognizes that by acquiescing the title, the city can be allowed an untarnished symbol.

In other words, the moral contradicitons of what Batman is doing necessitate that he be seen as a gray matter. The extra legal measures and great power he wields mean that he can never allow himself to be viewed as pure, noble, and unquestionably right, less he give validation to those ambiguities of morality. Again, Batman seems to be the anti-Bush/Cheney in this regard.

There are 2 qualities of the "hero" that don't apply to the ganefs of modern politics. First, the hero must do so reluctantly. Gung-ho types need not apply. Second, the hero's action prevents him from sharing in the reward. Usually that means death, but in the economics of of comics that just means he's forever cut-off from ordinary society.

And I totally agree about Oldman/Gordon. Oldman definitely does the best job with the character I've probably ever seen in live action, and I'd argue that it's also the most compelling character in its own right. The Joker and Batman are compelling for their moral implications, Dent is interesting to watch unfold, but in the total package, Gordon is the most well done character. I sincerely think that if anyone deserves an Oscar fromthe movie, it's Oldman, not Ledger (who I really hate to say, got a bad deal from the script and didn't really do anything beyond for the character).

The humans are the bad guys in Starship Troopers.

Dent made me think of RFK.

I felt like it was simply not a moralist film. I'm not sure what's up with the expectation that every film includes a moral lesson.

It's a mistake to think about Batman in real world terms--he's purely a metaphor. If your city had a guy beating up criminals in a costume, he'd be called "The Lunatic Mugger". In real world terms, Batman is committing serial assault on people who are presumed innocent--being tied up next to a truckload of cocaine makes you a hostage, not a trafficker. What, are the criminals going to confess to the police in the morning? No, they'll say "I was minding my own business when this lunatic assaulted me and knocked me out. Next thing I know, I'm tied up next to this truck."

Matthew,

The last post you were being chided for being childish, and eating cheezy poofs, and this post you reveal a great deal of wisdom about comic books.

I really liked your point that, generally speaking, lacking super powers, Batman is in a different position than superman, vis-a-vis the legitimacy problem.

Of course, all his gadgets, perhaps unavailable to non-millionaire non-Bruce Wayne types, do, actually, resurrect that issue.

No one should ever dissect the politics of comic book movies...

http://www.political-buzz.com/
http://www.myoovooday.com/political/

I agree with Mike: the tendency for some people to assume that all movies must be advocating for some kind of coherent political philosophy is strange and a bit irritating. I've seen criticisms in a few different places that the politics of TDK are "confused" because the movie supports something that could best be called libertarian fascism. Well, no. TDK's political viewpoint isn't confused; it's nonexistent, even though the Nolans were clearly thinking about a lot of political issues and wanted the audience to do so, too. Like all good art, TDK is more interested in asking questions than in answering them. Plot dictates that the characters choose a course of action that resolves a lot of the political points raised by the movie, but I never felt like the movie was demanding that the audience necessarily approve of, or agree with, those choices.

As for Unreal Veal's comment on Starship Troopers: you know that the fascism in that movie was intentional, and that the whole thing was intended to be a satire, right? If you don't believe me, listen to Neumeier and Verhoeven's commentary track on the DVD sometime. They were flabbergasted that so many people -- including professional critics who really should have known better -- missed the point.

Jesus Christ, Matt.

In one post you gripe about Joe Scarborough branding bloggers as a bunch of Cheetohs-dusted dorks. Your next post if 650+ words on BATMAN?

Get your story straight! ;-)

I agree with Mike: the tendency for some people to assume that all movies must be advocating for some kind of coherent political philosophy is strange and a bit irritating. I've seen criticisms in a few different places that the politics of TDK are "confused" because the movie supports something that could best be called libertarian fascism. Well, no. TDK's political viewpoint isn't confused; it's nonexistent, even though the Nolans were clearly thinking about a lot of political issues and wanted the audience to do so, too. Like all good art, TDK is more interested in asking questions than in answering them. Plot dictates that the characters choose a course of action that resolves a lot of the political points raised by the movie, but I never felt like the movie was demanding that the audience necessarily approve of, or agree with, those choices.

As for Unreal Veal's comment on Starship Troopers: you know that the fascism in that movie was intentional, and that the whole thing was intended to be a satire, right? If you don't believe me, listen to Neumeier and Verhoeven's commentary track on the DVD sometime. They were flabbergasted that so many people -- including professional critics who really should have known better -- missed the point.

Jesus Christ, Matt.

In one post you gripe about Joe Scarborough branding bloggers as a bunch of Cheetohs-dusted dorks. Your next post is 650+ words on BATMAN?

Get your story straight! ;-)

Co-screenwriter Jonathan Nolan said that the "rescue" scene is a take-off on that common scene (e.g. Spider-Man) where the hero has to decide between saving the girl or saving a carload of people and then manages to do both. Batman makes an easy decision to save Rachel and then fails at that anyway.

I also agree that the movie is not offering easy choices about fighting crime. Batman, Gordon and Dent offer three methods, each flawed. Batman is the vigilante, but he makes it clear that this is not a good choice, that it would be much better for the legal system to work. Gordon is a pragmatist, but by allowing bad apples to remain on the force, they end up causing deaths. Dent is relentlessly moral, but when Rachel dies, he simply cracks under the pressure.

In some ways, the Joker forces this into a disastrous situation, because he recognizes no laws or logic. He can't be reasoned with, he can only be killed. Batman won't kill him, because that's the one line he won't cross. The Joker won't kill Batman, but he'll destroy everyone around the Batman.

How about the stand-off on the boats, reminiscent of The Prisoner's Dilemma? Interesting that even the criminals refuse to push the button.

Finally, the Batman does engage in wiretapping. Having used it once, under an emergency situation, he then destroys it. Can't imagine Cheney doing that.

"Batman is NOT DICK CHENEY. Batman has morals, for one."
-------------------------------
Plus, Batman probably hasn't shot anyone since the Golden Age.

Hey Tom! Alterman started it!

On Matthew's discussion at the end: I don't think Superman has any place at all in Nolan's universe. Other "superheroes" could exist, but they can't have supernatural powers.

I don't think anyone posting here thinks the movie is explicitly advocating any kind of political philosophy. We're simply using the issues addressed and depicted as an allegory or metaphor for the real world, to look at things from another angle for some insight.

For example, the clandestine sonar suveillance system (C3S from now on). When the government spies on its citizens without probable cause or due process, some argue that it's in our interests for the sake fo security. But if a secluded billionaire with obvious psychological disturbances were to do so in secret, we would be justifiably appalled. Why is the government any different? Some would argue because the government enjoys the legitimacy and support of its citizens, which is true. But when you have a vast, opaque bureaucratic security apparatus, employing thousands of faces with no names, operating in a manner nearly as secret as Batman, some people are leery of who is accessing the collected information, what they're doing with it, etc., etc.

That's not to say I'm equating the NSA, FBI, or CIA with Batman (though I dunno if it's as much of a stretch as it appears) because the movie says so (it doesn't), just that the movie provides an alternate, fictional take on reality in order to shake up our rigid thought processes and perhaps shed some new light on the matter

If TDK was meant to arouse viewers to political thought through its ambiguity, then why are people criticizing those who are actually discussing the political implications of the movie? One of the roles of the critic is to tease out the implications of the work of art. TDK obviously, if obliquely, addresses political issues of moment. It should not be verboten to bring these issues up. That doesn't mean that there is only one political message to take from the movie and the film makers have failed if that message is not clear to the audience. And just because the film does not form a coherent or consistent political point of view doesn't mean that there is not a general political tendency. And this ignores issues concerning the relation of form to political meaning...

On Matthew's discussion at the end: I don't think Superman has any place at all in Nolan's universe. Other "superheroes" could exist, but they can't have supernatural powers.

Ricky B: Not to sound like a complete geek, but the Batman doesn't use firearms. He's shown with guns on a few occasions in 1939, but an editor decreed he would no longer kill or touch a gun.

I don't think anyone posting here thinks the movie is explicitly advocating any kind of political philosophy. We're simply using the issues addressed and depicted as an allegory or metaphor for the real world, to look at things from another angle for some insight.

For example, the clandestine sonar suveillance system (C3S from now on). When the government spies on its citizens without probable cause or due process, some argue that it's in our interests for the sake fo security. But if a secluded billionaire with obvious psychological disturbances were to do so in secret, we would be justifiably appalled. Why is the government any different? Some would argue because the government enjoys the legitimacy and support of its citizens, which is true. But when you have a vast, opaque bureaucratic security apparatus, employing thousands of faces with no names, operating in a manner nearly as secret as Batman, some people are leery of who is accessing the collected information, what they're doing with it, etc., etc.

That's not to say I'm equating the NSA, FBI, or CIA with Batman (though I dunno if it's as much of a stretch as it appears) because the movie says so (it doesn't), just that the movie provides an alternate, fictional take on reality in order to shake up our rigid thought processes and perhaps shed some new light on the matter

Both Batman and Dent (by the end) are vigilantes fighting terrorism in extra-legal fashion. Dent shows how this can get warped and become truly evil. Batman shows how extra-legal justice can make sense under dire circumstances but how tenuous this tactic will be even then. Think about all those doufuses dressing up like Batman, they piss batman off at least partly because they won't have his sense of restraint.

I think the movie ends up being ambivalent about extra legal heroism and crime fighting. And since, as someone above mentions, most super hero movies are inevitably pro-vigilantism and sneer at the ordinary joes trying to stop the superhero, Batman is a much better than average superhero movie merely by being ambivalent about extra legal justice.

"In some ways, the Joker forces this into a disastrous situation, because he recognizes no laws or logic. He can't be reasoned with, he can only be killed. Batman won't kill him, because that's the one line he won't cross. The Joker won't kill Batman, but he'll destroy everyone around the Batman."

Also, the very fact that that one cop tried to beat him out of revenge led to his escape, which is also helped by the fact the cops waited so long to see to the medical needs of the prisoner with the cell phone bomb in his gut. Even if the Joker had had his one phone call and set off the bomb, he would not have been as definitively in control of the situation that would ensure his escape. The C3S system wouldn't have even come into play if the police had been completely competent. As such, their lack of competence means they shouldn't be trusted with even more power.

Dana Stevens and a gentleman whose name I can't recall, movie reviewers for Slate, made the same mistake regarding whom Batman chose to save.

"Both Batman and Dent (by the end) are vigilantes fighting terrorism in extra-legal fashion. Dent shows how this can get warped and become truly evil. Batman shows how extra-legal justice can make sense under dire circumstances but how tenuous this tactic will be even then."

Good point. In some ways, the movie is the flip side of "24." The creators of "24" have pretty much admitted they are political in their motivations (and have also ducked West Point military professors and generals who have wished to criticize them in person for glamorizing torture). "24" seems to wish to instill the fear of the ticking time-bomb scenario into the viewer. However, the Nolans know no one like the Joker really exists in the world, especially not in industrial democracies with functioning states. While we have had McVeigh and Baader-Meinhoff, we haven't had a home-grown wackjob who just only wants chaos, has no real political or material motive and runs around in makeup. The Joker scenario is a ticking time bomb scenario so unreal and unlikely you can't really generalize anything from it. As such, the logic of using extreme measures from this case folds in on itself, perhaps intentionally.

PopView- that's exactly what my joke was saying- that Batman once used guns in the Golden Age but that he hasn't shot anyone lately, unlike a certain super villain whose name rhymes with Chick Deney.

And by the way, despite his characteristic aversion to guns (due to the whole his parents getting brutally shot thing I'm guessing), Batman has still used them several times over the decades since the 1930's- usually not on people though.

I love heroic fiction in all its media, as I largely grew up on it, but it is scary to see our love of heroic fiction affect our attitude towards real life. I'm sure a good number of the people who still hold positive opinions about Bush/Cheney would use a Batman defense...

Yeah but a lot of people can discern between fantasy and reality. Plus is all vigilante behavior morally wrong? What about the superhero who prevented the Prince of Darkness - Robert Novak - from escaping after his hit and run?

What about the vigilantes who fought the terrorist in the plane that went down in Pennsylvania (which probably was going to the Capitol)?

You're attitude seems a little ... priggish.

I agree with those commenters who say that trying to assign a particular political viewpoint to the film is a mistake. It poses many philosophical questions about justice/law enforcement/etc., but it doesn't advocate for a specific party platform.

Codyak and Phil --

Don't know if you were responding to my post specifically, but I more or less agree with you. TDK obviously has "political" overtones. It's entirely legit to talk about those -- heck, it's one of the reasons it's a good movie. I wasn't trying to say otherwise.

What I find irritating is something like the Alterman quote, which says TDK is both "libertarian and fascistic" and is, therefore, confused. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Alterman, or he was being unclear, but I take his "it's libertarian and fascistic" comment to mean that the movie is, on some level, advocating or endorsing both a libertarian and fascistic worldview. Which I don't think it does, and I think is unfair to the movie. The type of review I have in mind is like this from Jesse Taylor at Pandagon, who is generally terrific but wrong about this:

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/bamboo_review_the_dark_knight/

So, in short: discussing the politics of TDK, or more accurately the politics of its characters: great. Assuming that because its characters have politics, TDK must be advocating or endorsing those politics: a bit silly.

And we're supposed to accept the foreign policy judgments of a guy that can't even keep up with the plot of a Batman movie?

Hilarious.

And we're supposed to accept the foreign policy judgments of a guy that can't even keep up with the plot of a Batman movie?

Hilarious.

Matt, I think one aspect of Batman that you fail to mention here is that he has a very specific rule against killing. It doesn't matter that Batman may be a "vigilante" in the extra-legal sense, he's very strict on not falling to the level of the criminal. Let's be honest if Batman were like Dick Cheney, instead of spending half the movie hunting for Joker, he'd just have pulled a gun and blown him away. While Batman does have a self-sacrificial aspect, I think there's a very key aspect here of Batman refusing to resort to lethal force.

It would be much much simpler for him if he could. But he makes a point throughout the movies to only beat the crap out of people instead of killing them. How much time and effort would've been saved (not to mention lives?) if he'd just put a slug through Joker's skull the first time he encounters him?

Yes, there's a certain extra-legality to what he's doing, but ultimately he's relying on the fact that the rule of law will triumph in the end, and that he needs a check o himself. Lucius Fox serves as his conscience in the movie, just like how Batman himself is a check on things like Superman in the DC Universe.

Batman has a certain degree of hubris, sure in that he believes he's the only figure able to bear certain burdens. But he still has a fundamental respect for human life that keeps him from taking certain actions even in the name of expediency.

I think, in the end that's what we want from our heroes, a combination of a call to action, and an ability to retain certain core beliefs even in the face of great adversity and strain.

I think Batman indeed thought he was going to save Rachel, and ended up saving Dent because the Joker lied to him. The Joker's agenda (I do think he does have one) is to prove that everyone can be corrupted. By having Rachel die, he was able to corrupt Dent, and also tried to corrupt Batman. And in a way he was able to corrupt Batman, because clearly Wayne made a choice that was really for his own good (to save a woman he loves) rather than the good of the public, to save the "white knight" that is Dent.

"Let's be honest if Batman were like Dick Cheney, instead of spending half the movie hunting for Joker, he'd just have pulled a gun and blown him away. While Batman does have a self-sacrificial aspect, I think there's a very key aspect here of Batman refusing to resort to lethal force."

No, he would have let the Joker escape to Metropolis, then tapped everyone's phones anyway.

This post is one of the reasons I'm very grateful for the imminent departure of Mr. Yglesias from the Atlantic Monthly.

David Appell wrote that much of the content of the blogosphere is worthless and this post is a shining example of worthless.

Give me a break, Matt! What kind of idiot engages in a Talmudic reading of a mindless, artless, cotton candy summer blockbuster!

Matt has officially jumped the shark. He should clean out his desk today and make a beeline for the New America Foundation.

Yglesias originally supported the Iraq war and yet still calls himself a progressive. He's a fraud and a phony. He bashes the Bush administration now, yet fell for their war argument hook, line, and sinker at crunch time. Hopefully, the Atlantic will appoint a true progressive to replace him.

As pointed out, one aspect that gets overlooked frequently in these discussions is this: superhero universes don't work the same way ours do, in politics and law no less than physics.

One issue of JLA dealt with a team of superpowered operatives who tried to act in a "realistic" manner, or what we'd expect to be the case if there were superpowered people in the real world. And they got stomped, because, as Superman pointed out (to the characters and to readers), their methods just didn't work when you were dealing with jet-pack-wearing ray-gun-wielding intelligent gorillas. No, really, that's what beat them.

Batman or Superman in our world, scary and probably not something we'd like. If our world had evil mad scientists who could blow up the planet on a whim, alien invaders every other week, and yes, hostile jet-pack-wearing ray-gun-wielding intelligent gorillas, probably not so scary because they're on our side.

As pointed out, one aspect that gets overlooked frequently in these discussions is this: superhero universes don't work the same way ours do, in politics and law no less than physics.

One issue of JLA dealt with a team of superpowered operatives who tried to act in a "realistic" manner, or what we'd expect to be the case if there were superpowered people in the real world. And they got stomped, because, as Superman pointed out (to the characters and to readers), their methods just didn't work when you were dealing with jet-pack-wearing ray-gun-wielding intelligent gorillas. No, really, that's what beat them.

Batman or Superman in our world, scary and probably not something we'd like. If our world had evil mad scientists who could blow up the planet on a whim, alien invaders every other week, and yes, hostile jet-pack-wearing ray-gun-wielding intelligent gorillas, probably not so scary because they're on our side.

David Appell wrote that much of the content of the blogosphere is worthless and this post is a shining example of worthless.

Give me a break, Matt! What kind of idiot engages in a Talmudic reading of a mindless, artless, cotton candy summer blockbuster!

As opposed to the kind of idiot who apparently insists that people must only talk about Serious Things?

Doing evil is not quite the worst thing. Doing evil and calling it good is worse.

Like others have said, Batman chose to save Rachel, but Joker punked him and switched the addresses so he saved Dent. I find it hard to believe anyone paying attention could miss this point, I was quite surprised to see Batman pulling Dent free but then it sunk in, Joker's a bastard.

And going back and saving Rachel instead once Batman saw it was Dent was not any sort of option at all. Both places were about 30 seconds away from exploding.

As opposed to the kind of idiot who apparently insists that people must only talk abour Serious Things?

That wasn't my point. If Yglesias wants to talk about Dark Knight, fine.

I'm saying don't try connecting fluffy, escapist entertainment with Bush's war on civil liberties under the guise of a war on terror.

You don't need to use the latest Batman flick as a vehicle to offer your take on the misdeeds of Bush and Cheney.

Give me a break, Matt! What kind of idiot engages in a Talmudic reading of a mindless, artless, cotton candy summer blockbuster!

This guy apparently agrees with Joe Scarborough. Nice...

As opposed to the kind of idiot who apparently insists that people must only talk abour Serious Things?

That wasn't my point. If Yglesias wants to talk about Dark Knight, fine.

I'm saying don't try connecting fluffy, escapist entertainment with Bush's war on civil liberties under the guise of a war on terror.

You don't need to use the latest Batman flick as a vehicle to offer your take on the misdeeds of Bush and Cheney.

This guy apparently agrees with Joe Scarborough. Nice...

PETER K. - READ THIS VERY SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY

**********************************************
Joe Scarborough is a Smarmy, Knuckle-Dragging Neanderthal! Morning Joe is a Super-Sized, Putrid, Steaming Pile of Excrement! MSNBC irreparably soiled and disgraced its reputation and credibilty as a news outlet by giving a putz like Scarborough a venue to air his stupidity!
************************************************

I don't like Joe Scarborough, I despise him! Did I make myself clear to you Peter K.?

I'm am 100% opposed to the policies of Bush and Cheney and John McCain.

Unlike Yglesias, I was against the Iraq War from the start.

This guy apparently agrees with Joe Scarborough. Nice...

PETER K. - READ THIS VERY SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY

**********************************************
Joe Scarborough is a Smarmy, Knuckle-Dragging Neanderthal! Morning Joe is a Super-Sized, Putrid, Steaming Pile of Excrement! MSNBC irreparably soiled and disgraced its reputation and credibilty as a news outlet by giving a putz like Scarborough a venue to air his stupidity!
************************************************

I don't like Joe Scarborough, I despise him! Did I make myself clear to you Peter K.?

I'm 100% opposed to the policies of Bush and Cheney and John McCain.

Unlike Yglesias, I was against the Iraq War from the start.

SCARBOROUGH SLUR

Peter K.

If Joe Scarborough said something similar to me about Dark Knight, it's pure coincidence!

I don't want to be tied, connected, or associated with a lying, smarmy, smug swine like Scarborough in any way, shape, or form.

The most overtly fascist movie of modern times was Starship Troopers. It's like Beverly Hills 90210 meets Triumph of the Will. I recommend that everyone pick it up on netflicks and bask in its glory. You will never see more beautiful people figuring out that the only true path to citizenship is military service in the pursuit of a genocidal war against subhumans. The Dark Knight can't touch that.
Posted by Unreal Veal

The problem with Veal is that he tries comparing a trashy movie against Batman- the campy, badly-acted waste known as Voerhoven's "Troopers" - which is a mindlessly inane flick derived from a major, well-written scifi novel of 1959. And Heinlein's book caused controversy like no other within the factions of scifi and spilled out in the 60s to larger society along with his liberal and libertarian themes in other novels like Stranger in a Strange Land, The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.
His book Starship Troopers is not military fascism because Heinlein said while the right to vote was earned by service, all other rights didn't require service and the military was just one of 20 of people that elected to do service for the return right to vote.

You can't buttonhole Heinlein. He was all over the map. Rightwing, liberal, libertarian - the 1st scifi guy to regularly have minorities cast as central characters (Rico in Troopers was written as Filipino in origin). Naval Academy graduate, nudist with an open marriage, the man who invented the modern waterbed and blocked anybody getting patents two decades later when his idea was commercialized..

In a sense, Frank Miller revived "Batman" from the campy kitsch the character had become by making him a substantial, consequential grappling as an intelligent adult with the great moral, social and psychological issues individuals and society faced. The contrast between the two recent Dark Knight movies and past "Batman cinematic efforts" is night and day in quality.


If Scarborough's comments about Dark Knight resembled mine it's the first and last time when we'd be in agreement on anything.

Scarborough is a malignant media carcinogen!

I don't like Joe Scarborough, I despise him! Did I make myself clear to you Peter K.?
I'm 100% opposed to the policies of Bush and Cheney and John McCain.
Unlike Yglesias, I was against the Iraq War from the start.
Posted by Seth

Don't worry Seth. Black Messiah is coming. He will heal the planet and salve your anger. You will be happy. Black Messiah will tell you what to do and you will be so greatful for his moral and social mentoring of you that you won't care about Scarborough any more.. He will tuck you in at night, leadeth you to green pastures, and make everything OK. If you cry loud enough for ice cream, Black Messiah will have a program where you can get it free!

And many people were against Iraq from the start. Almost half the Democrats, Fidel Castro, Jane Fonda, Putin, Saddam, the Saudi Royals, bin Laden, Jacques de Villepin, even the All-Wise Kofi God. Feel good about yourself! You were not alone in your judgment. Saddam loved brown babies too!

I was struck by the extent to which TDK was an allegory about the "war on terror"--The Joker is repeatedly referred to as a terrorist, and his basic plot to corrupt his enemies through their overreacting attacks on him is a clear metaphor for the strategy of Osama bin Laden. Just about every aspect of the post-September 11 debate is referenced--warrantless wiretapping, torture, the abolition of due process. And the film comes firmly down on the con side of all of these things: Torturing Joker is futile, because that's what he wants; spying on all of Gotham City does not help catch Joker, and in fact the surveillance system blinds Batman at a crucial moment; and Joker's attempt to force the "innocent" people of Gotham to indiscriminately murder the "guilty" ones fails, his only real defeat in the film. Harvey Dent as representative of the rule of the law is clearly a much more heroic figure than Batman, and his corruption by the Joker's machinations--signified by his pre-Two-Face attempt to use the No Country for Old Men-style coin-flip trick on a poor schizophrenic--is a real tragedy. In short, Nolan is pretty clearly saying that what the bad guys want is for us to pervert our own values.

The ending is a bit ambiguous, in that Batman decides to keep his limits, but makes Gordon treat him as a bad guy, a transgressor of limits. I wonder whether Nolan is making a comment on our apparent need for transgressive "heroes." I don't know, but I am sure that Nolan is neither a neoconservative or a fascist.

chris ford

Referring to Barack Obama as a "Black Messiah" is crude, infantile, and stupid.

Of course, Obama does not have all the answers. John McCain has none of the answers.

The US is not better off now than it was 8 years ago.

Why don't you go troll the websites of the National Review, the Weekly Standard, Human Events, or Townhall if you're such a big McCain lover?

If you're a Hillary lover who can't support Obama, why don't you troll the blogs of Taylor Marsh and Larry Johnson?

Batman can't be Cheney, he doesn't use guns.

And yes, Batman wanted to save Rachel, but Joker tricked him.

The most ethically challenging part of TDK (and ultimately, the least true-to-life) is the zero-sum game that the Joker plays on the two ferry boats. It is a brilliant exposition on serving justice vs. justifying vengeance that illustrates how, in the words of the Joker, you see who people really are in the moments before they die. By the end of this suspenseful sequence, Christopher Nolan plays a marvelous trick on the audience by sending the inmate to act as the agent of righteous nobility while the security moms on the other boat are begging for someone to set off the detonator and send the inmates (who have "made their choice") to the bottom of the sea. The Joker tells Batman to wait for "the fireworks," the explosions that will prove how quickly rational, self-serving humans are willing to sacrifice others for their own survival and Batman's faith in the goodness of the Gothamites is validated by the ensuing silence.

But it is the Joker's next comments that tell the real story of odds-in-Vegas human behavior: "Madness is like gravity. All you need is a little push." I couldn't help but think of my Econ 101 professor who was a true believer in the zero-sum logic that dictates (and also justifies) an each-man-for-himself reaction to all potentially negative situations. And unfortunately a real-life situation would not play out to show nobility, but a fairly universal knee-jerk willingness to annihilate the other. My hat is off to Christopher Nolan for forcing his audience to put itself in these situations, for turning the mirror on us to reveal caked-on, grimy makeup that looks as familiar as it does grotesque.

If we put the ferry boat scene in a modern American political context, we see a lot zero-sum logic, such as the one percent doctrine that tells us killing hundreds of innocent civilians is worth it if it means taking out one potential but unlikely threat or the idea that we should send the children of undocumented immigrants away from schools and hospitals to keep them undiluted and pristine for the 'real Americans.'

All told, this was a terrific, thought-provoking and emotionally impactive film. I recommend it highly, especially to the doubters who may think of it as "cotton candy summer blockbuster" fare. Take a chance and watch it.

The most ethically challenging part of TDK (and ultimately, the least true-to-life) is the zero-sum game that the Joker plays on the two ferry boats. It is a brilliant exposition on serving justice vs. justifying vengeance that illustrates how, in the words of the Joker, you see who people really are in the moments before they die. By the end of this suspenseful sequence, Christopher Nolan plays a marvelous trick on the audience by sending the inmate to act as the agent of righteous nobility while the security moms on the other boat are begging for someone to set off the detonator and send the inmates (who have "made their choice") to the bottom of the sea. The Joker tells Batman to wait for "the fireworks," the explosions that will prove how quickly rational, self-serving humans are willing to sacrifice others for their own survival and Batman's faith in the goodness of the Gothamites is validated by the ensuing silence.

But it is the Joker's next comments that tell the real story of odds-in-Vegas human behavior: "Madness is like gravity. All you need is a little push." I couldn't help but think of my Econ 101 professor who was a true believer in the zero-sum logic that dictates (and also justifies) an each-man-for-himself reaction to all potentially negative situations. And unfortunately a real-life situation would not play out to show nobility, but a fairly universal knee-jerk willingness to annihilate the other. My hat is off to Christopher Nolan for forcing his audience to put itself in these situations, for turning the mirror on us to reveal caked-on, grimy makeup that looks as familiar as it does grotesque.

If we put the ferry boat scene in a modern American political context, we see a lot zero-sum logic, such as the one percent doctrine that tells us killing hundreds of innocent civilians is worth it if it means taking out one potential but unlikely threat or the idea that we should send the children of undocumented immigrants away from schools and hospitals to keep them undiluted and pristine for the 'real Americans.'

All told, this was a terrific, thought-provoking and emotionally impactive film. I recommend it highly, especially to the doubters who may think of it as "cotton candy summer blockbuster" fare. Take a chance and watch it.

The reason Batman can wield the power he does is because he's a recluse and an apolitical being. He is interested only in crime prevention and punishment. He doesn't share people's private phone calls with companies so they can better target them with ads, and he doesn't tell the mayor about who is going to run against him and how to trump up charges on him so he can't take his office.

That's why the government shouldn't spy on us but it's okay for Batman to. Note that he uses it and immediately catches the bad guy and then destroys it, he doesn't putz around using it as an excuse to randomly imprison people at will. Also, IT'S A COMIC BOOK.

But. The magic of it is that it can't be. The world is going to fall apart around us, and we can't depend on Batman to come and rescue all of us with his quasi-illegal acts. We have to muddle through it and keep our heads up as best we can. Comic book movies do what most movies do, give us an opportunity to escape our own cruel reality. Sometimes we need movies about the bad guy getting it. But, we have to remember that that's not reality.

The justification for Bruce Wayne's vigilantism is that the police are not legitimate. The authorities can't take on crime because the police are on the payroll of the criminals. That's why Bruce Wayne becomes Batman in the first place. But his goal is to work with legitimate public officials like Gordon, Rachel, and Dent in the hope that the system can be cleaned up and he can retire. Remember, he isn't defying or trying to subvert the system, he's trying to strengthen it.

I just saw the movie last night and intend to see it again soon - in fact, I think I'll see it in Imax format at the Metreon here in San Francisco.

What I took away from it - the Joker was right. In the end, Batman had to assume criminality in order to lie to the public about feet of clay Dent.

What fascinated me about this Joker, as opposed to the earlier ones, is that he clearly is the most intellectual Joker ever. He has obviously made a conscious intellectual decision to be an anarchist of the "chaos" variety (anarchism has a long history of that variant in its ranks).

His dialogs with Dent in the hospital and Batman clearly show that he is primarily a chaos anarchist.

I agree with BigMix above that the ferry boat scene was absolutely brilliant. I agree with the Joker that what would have happened is that the boat with the criminals would have been blown up, not the reverse, but that either outcome would have been likely. That scene put the nature of primate humans right on spot.

This movie is brilliant. It's on a par with "V for Vendetta" in handling conventional morality on a deep level.

As an aside, I found it interesting that the Joker is not only left alive at the end, but that his self-described "origin" stories are undoubtedly bogus, and when captured, he has no identification whatsoever in any database.

Clearly the writers intend to bring him back - possibly even do an "origin" movie a la Hannibal Lector. That would be so cool. They clearly deliberately disposed of the original Batman movie concept that he was created by an action of Batman himself. It's just unfortunate that we won't have Heath Ledger to do another brilliant performance.

I never cared much for the Joker as a supervillain since I prefer mostly Marvel supervillains. But this Joker was outstanding. This is the definitive Joker, easily outshining Nicholson's thug.

I have this feeling that if TDK were re done with the same basic plot but were set in the old wets and Batman was replaced with a local sheriff and the joker was an outlaw Seth would be touting it as a brilliantly made film and discussing all the issues it raises. If it had been made in the 50s by John Ford or Anthony Mann it would already be on his approved list of great films.

Face it dude you have a hang up about comic books.

> I'm fairly certain Batman intended to go after
> Rachel and let Dent die. That's what he says to
> Gordon as he storms out of the MCU.
>
>
> The Joker switched the addresses. Because he knew
> Batman would go after Rachel, but he wanted Dent
> to survive and endure loss so he could be better
> corrupted.

I did a quick triple-think on that as the scene unfolded. My take is that Batman guessed that Joker was not giving him correct information and decided to go after Dent, but said what he did to Gordon because he knew there might be rats in the Gordon's team. Which there were.

Cranky

"if TDK were redone with the same basic plot but was set in the old West"

It isn't all about comic books.

I didn't find the plot interesting, engaging or imaginative from the start. The screenplay was wooden, tedious, and poorly written.

If you're casting an actress to play a love interest in the summer's biggest blockbuster, I think it's advisable to find someone more physically attractive than Maggie Gyllenhaal. What about Gwyheth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, Siena Miller, Rachel Weisz, Amanda Peet, Amy Adams, or Scarlett Johanssen?


"if TDK were redone with the same basic plot but was set in the old West"

It isn't all about comic books.

I didn't find the plot interesting, engaging or imaginative from the start. The screenplay was wooden, tedious, and poorly written.

If you're casting an actress to play a love interest in the summer's biggest blockbuster, I think it's advisable to find someone more physically attractive than Maggie Gyllenhaal. What about Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, Kate Beckinsale, Siena Miller, Rachel Weisz, Amanda Peet, Amy Adams, or Scarlett Johanssen?


I have to agree with Seth that Maggie Gyllenhaal is probably the least attractive actress in Hollywood right now. Even Selma Blair looked better in "Hellboy 2". A good enough actress, but not believable as a "Batman babe" (trademarked like "Bond Girl"). Compared to Katie Holmes, no comparison at all. And a really incredibly lousy hair style.

If Kate Beckinsale had the part - oh, wow.

Angelina couldn't have done it - she would have overshadowed Bale too much, because everybody who saw "Wanted" would be thinking, "Damn, she could beat the Joker senseless herself."

Paltrow is too soft. Weisz could have done it - she's a really good actress and can play tough as "Constantine" showed. Johanssen would be questionable - too blond, too soft.

But Beckinsale would have been perfect - gorgeous enough to interest Bruce Wayne, but feisty enough for a hard driving assistant DA.

NERDS! NERDS! NEEEEEEEERDS!

Whenever you see a movie that is "consistent" as Alterman seems to want Batman to be, it is generally also pretty bad. I don't really think a work of fiction has the power to persuade and when people try, they generally lose the audience. Ambivelence may be bad politics, but its good art.

I thought one of the key lines in the movie was Harvey Dent relating how the Romans, in a time of emergency, would appoint one man as dictator to quell the emergency. He was defending Batman with the point that sometimes, being unconstrained by normal legal rules is legitimate and needed for the simple reason that a highly abstracted and slow-distilling order cannot anticipate how to deal with a villain like Joker. Of course, the danger is that once the the people cede the ability to transgress the laws, a Caesar will entrench himself. To avoid that outcome, you need to find some way to return agency to the community after the emergency ends.

To deal with this problem, the protagonists create an inspiring picture of an incorruptible Harvey Dent, who represents those foundational norms of the community, and also quell the temptation to valorize Batman, who represents the rare exception to those norms.

Joker completes the gradient by representing the extreme of chaos. As just about everyone has noticed, he serves a much more intricate role than your typical "evildoer" . When juxtaposed next to Batman, it becomes clear that a hero annointed to transgress the laws is not to be confused with one who embraces the utter lack of constraint.

"it becomes clear that a hero annointed to transgress the laws is not to be confused with one who embraces the utter lack of constraint."

Unfortunately, the Joker is right. His crime is being able to expose the truth about humans.

One interesting thing I noticed about the plot is that almost everybody in it except Batman, Alfred, Gordon and the assistant DA is suspect of being on the mob payroll. That really reflects reality, at least in the US - except that in reality, the assistant DA would be corrupt - or the sort of DA who prosecuted Winona Ryder - Gordon would be corrupt - or the sort of cop who covers up beatings of blacks - leaving only Alfred - who probably pawns Wayne silverware when Bruce isn't looking.

The problem with reality which this movie actually deals with is that not only is nobody "incorruptible", everybody is corrupt. As the Joker says, just give them a push. There are no "foundational norms of the community" except in the breach of them.

It was a criminal who had to solve the ferry problem on his side. That was telling.

This is the problem with this country today. Everybody sits around proclaiming their desire to do good, bring democracy, blah, blah - while stealing everybody else blind. Worse, everybody actually tries to believe that the people running the country and the government are basically positively motivated. And they believe this no matter how many times it's proven to be false.

Why doesn't Matt, Josh Marshall, or the MSM deal with the Sibel Edmonds case? Because it's radioactive to that belief system. Sibel Edmonds has the goods on the people who run this country. Why she's still breathing is a mystery to me - in any other country in the world, she'd be dead by now, and the media would hush it up. Edmonds is talking about high treason by "senior elected US officials". High treason. Not blowjobs in the Oval Office, not even leaking a CIA agent's name (although the same people are involved.) High treason. Dealing US nuclear secrets, drug and weapons smuggling, espionage.

And nobody will touch her case with a ten foot pole. Henry Waxman told her he would make her case the number one priority when the Democrats got control of Congress. Since then, his office will not accept her calls.

Face it, folks, the Joker is right.

First, the Rachel/Dent thing confused me as well. I thought he said Rachel, but then he showed up at Dent's place, and I noticed Dent's reaction but not Batman's. I was beginning to wonder if the Joker switched the addresses, but then Bale's speech the next morning made me think he HAD intended to go after Dent, and I'd just gotten it wrong. But now, after talking to other people, I do believe that the addresses were switched.

Anyway...

Shifting a bit away from the issues of the day, though, one interesting thing about the film is what a difference it makes to rip Batman out of the context of the broader DC universe. The DCU's other anchor character, Superman, is far more powerful than Batman. And of course Superman's hardly alone in this regard -- Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, etc. all wield vast power and even lesser lights like the Flash outpace Batman by far.

I'll second KeithM's point that superhero universes don't act like ours. Also, Batman wasn't conceived as part of a DC Universe, it got cobbled together in intervening years. And I've always felt that most DC/Marvel comic titles for the most part ignore other aspects of their broader universe unless it's handy for the story in question not to. Otherwise, who gives a flip about Daredevil when you've got Silver Surfer out there? Even when there are guest appearances, the guest usually seems to be fit into the context of the title. Of course, there are stories that take advantage of a universe of superheroes, and titles that deal with teams of superheroes, but my experience was never that this was the norm. And really, both Marvel and DC try to keep their universes similar to ours, so the Universe of Superheroes thing just can't, by nature, be taken to its logical conclusion and still keep up the premise that their world is in anyway similar to ours.

Watchmen was better at trying to show what a world with superheroes would be like, but that worked because it's just a one-off series. (I've heard Miracleman goes into these issues as well, but alas, I've never read it.)

Hack,

We obviously agree on a lot of things, but disagree on a lot too; even I find some of your opinions borderline demented. But by far the most bizarre things that you have ever written on this site are the above comments defaming the amazingly beautiful and sexy Maggie Gyllenhaal.

This is the dumbest review and thread ever. It's a Batman summer action movie and updated series reboot. It's not Dick Cheney or any other real person, not a nod to conspiracy theories, and not about perceived political idealogies and government initiatives that hackjobs like you guys on here make up in your minds. Quit trying to out-do each other by cashing in your Big Word Points bottlecaps and do something with your life like help your Starbucks buddies find a new job.

OK, the people who just said Maggie Gyllenhal is unattractive have given up their right to be taken seriously about anything, ever. Not only is she better looking than Katie Holmes, she's about 100 times the actress Katie Holmes is. There's no way The Dark Knight would have worked with Katie Holmes in that role. She almost ruined Batman Begins. She was totally implausible as a prosecutor and she looks 10 years too young to be Bruce Wayne's old flame.

I loved TDK, but here's what I didn't buy: Batman allegedly never kills anyone? You're telling me none of those people that he beats up die? He's wearing kevlar and pulling Bruce Lee shit on them. They all go down with one punch or one kick, but nobody dies?

Seth and KCMunchkin, did you guys actually see the movie? You're telling me a movie that's about hunting a terrorist and whether or not to torture him, and using a computer program to spy on everybody's cell phone calls has nothing to do with our present political situation? OK, that's just dumb.

If you're casting an actress to play a love interest in the summer's biggest blockbuster, I think it's advisable to find someone more physically attractive than Maggie Gyllenhaal. What about Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, Kate Beckinsale, Siena Miller, Rachel Weisz, Amanda Peet, Amy Adams, or Scarlett Johanssen?

Amy Adams friggin' rocks. She was outstanding in Enchanted and Junebug and should get her own big budget superhero movie, like maybe Wonder Woman. She could lasso bad guys and make them tell the truth. No torture needed!

I saw the movie a second time last night. Gyllenhaal looked better the second time. She's also fairly sexy on occasion.

She still can't compare to Kate Beckinsale. Anybody who has that personal opinion needs to go see the Underworld series.

And keep in mind that Katie Holmes is years older than she was in "Batman Begins." The problem in that movie was she had a fairly limited role. I don't know how good an actress she is because that's the only thing I've ever seen her in.

But there's no frickin' way Gyllenhaal is better looking than Katie Holmes - at least not in this movie. Maybe in something else they livened her up a bit but in this movie she was practically drab. I've never seen her in that wacked out sex movie she did, so I don't know if she looks better.

You're gonna tell me this:

http://www.wallpapergate.com/data/media/772/Maggie_Gyllenhaal_001.jpg

looks better than this:

http://www.wallpapergate.com/data/media/108/kate-beckinsale-318784.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7365/katebeckinsalenewyorkprcd3.jpg

You need glasses. I have glasses and I know better looking when I see it.

ok, batman is not an employee of the united states of america so we cant make the comparison of b man and cheney. the simplicity of the message is that although torture is wrong, secretly it can be justified as a means to an end, but no as a legitimate publicized tool in a civil society. hence, batman on the run.

ok, batman is not an employee of the united states of america so we cant make the comparison of b man and cheney. the simplicity of the message is that although torture is wrong, secretly it can be justified as a means to an end, but no as a legitimate publicized tool in a civil society. hence, batman on the run.

Dark Knight is probably the most intelligent response to 9/11 yet. The bombs on two boats scenario is based on `the prisoners` dilemma` derived from game theory. The idea being that two players in a game can choose between two moves; either `cooperate` or `defect`. The idea is that each player gains when both cooperate, but if only one of them cooperates, the other one, who defects, will gain more - but they can`t confer. (U can Google 4 more.) Joker wants to demonstrate that ultimately everyone is as murderous and ruthless as he is. The passengers could attempt to save their own lives by destroying the other boat, providing they act first. Joker expects one boat to do so. But there is also a moral dimension, by destroying a boat the survivors will also be mass murderers and both boats choose not to become so. It`s telling this particular scenario was chosen for the film.

On 9/11, if those in one tower could have saved themselves by choosing to destroy the other tower would they have done so? (But then becoming terrorists themselves.) Nolan is saying that no they wouldn`t have; they`d decide to take their own chances and someone else would have to take the moral responsibility as to whether they lived or died. (There`s also a rough parallel with nuclear deterrence here.) This demonstration of basic humanity is the real defeat of Joker (Osama?) and what he stands for.

Harvey Dent suffers greatly in the film and arrives at a mental state that believes everything is arbitrary, that there is no morality, good, bad, justice or fairness in the world. Everything is morally equivalent. Two Face crucially abandons being led by moral choices, letting the coin flip do the work. He`s thrown into a nihilistic moral wasteland between Joker and Batman. And that is where US foreign policy is now with Guantanamo Bay and Iraq whilst pretending to itself that it is the world`s White Knight; preferring to believe the legend of Harvey Dent rather than the reality of what he became. (The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance is referenced in TDK.) Another key plot point is about the use of surveillance technology (ends and means), immensely topical given the Patriot Act and UK`s anti terror laws.

too many steves:

I loved TDK, but here's what I didn't buy: Batman allegedly never kills anyone? You're telling me none of those people that he beats up die? He's wearing kevlar and pulling Bruce Lee shit on them. They all go down with one punch or one kick, but nobody dies?

Suspension of disbelief, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to accept if you can accept that Batman is one of the greatest martial artists on the planet. Most, if not all, martial arts teach how to incapacitate without killing.

Like everyone else, I got the impression that Batman had selfishly intended to save Rachel, not Dent. Unlike them, though, I don't think he really believed both could be rescued. He knew the timetable involved.

And maybe I'm the only one who thought during the ferry scenes that the Joker planned to make sure both boats blew up regardless of the passengers' decisions. That is, if one of the boats had made the choice to kill the others to save themselves, he would have blown up the other one anyway (after taunting them and the city again, of course). He's not exactly a man of his word.

Like everyone else, I got the impression that Batman had selfishly intended to save Rachel, not Dent. Unlike them, though, I don't think he really believed both could be rescued. He knew the timetable involved.

And maybe I'm the only one who thought during the ferry scenes that the Joker planned to make sure both boats blew up regardless of the passengers' decisions. That is, if one of the boats had made the choice to kill the others to save themselves, he would have blown up the other one anyway (after taunting them and the city again, of course). He's not exactly a man of his word.

You said "Barman is more than heroic"-- freudian slip. Please stop drinking on the job.

Batman?
So what....grow up. It's a comic-book hero.
Get a grip.


Comments closed August 07, 2008.

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