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Faster Than a Speeding Myth

29 Jul 2008 08:36 am

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Ross Douthat recommends some anti-Dark Knight musings from A.O. Scott:

I don't want to start any fights with devout fans or besotted critics. I'm willing to grant that "The Dark Knight" is as good as a movie of its kind can be. But that may be damning with faint praise. There is no doubt that Batman, a staple of American popular culture for nearly 70 years, provided Mr. Nolan (and his brother and screenwriting partner Jonathan), with a platform for his artistic ambitions. You can't set out to make a psychological thriller, or even an urban crime melodrama, and expect to command anything like the $185 million budget Mr. Nolan had at his disposal in "The Dark Knight." And that money, in addition to paying for some dazzling set pieces and action sequences, allowed Mr. Nolan and his team to create a seamless and evocative visual atmosphere, a Gotham nightscape often experienced from the air.

But to paraphrase something the Joker says to Batman, "The Dark Knight" has rules, and they are the conventions that no movie of this kind can escape.

Thence comes the thesis that a movie about a superhero just can't, on some level, be a great film. I think The Dark Knight has enough specific problems, especially in terms of the quality of the dialogue and some odd plot holes, that one is well-justified in cautioning that audience enthusiasm for this film shouldn't be allowed to go overboard. But I think moving toward a generic point about inherent limits of movies about Batman is pretty off-base. What is Homer writing about if not superheroes?

And at the same time, some of this winds up letting the artists off the hook. If a story's quality has been compromised in order to set up the next edition of the franchise, that's a storyteller compromising his story for money. Inevitable, perhaps, and thus not the most condemnation-worthy thing in the universe but still a real compromise that deserves to be criticized on the merits and not just waved off as an inevitable consequence of superhero-dom.

Meanwhile, not to be too much of a super hero apologist, I should say that over the weekend I went to see Werner Herzog's documentary Encounters at the End of the Earth and at the end of the day Herzog's made a much better film.

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Comments (49)

The problem isn't that The Dark Knight is a superhero movie. The problem is that it's trying to appeal to 300 million people. Great movies tend to be bold movies; movies designed for everyone and anyone don't.

Per Scott, some of these rules are:

The climax must be a fight with the villain, during which the symbiosis of good guy and bad guy, implicit throughout, must be articulated. The end must point forward to a sequel, and an aura of moral consequence must be sustained even as the killings, explosions and chases multiply.

I would argue that the conclusion of this batman movie bends if not breaks these rules.

I'll be interested in his take on Watchmen when it comes out. If done correctly, it could be the Unforgiven of superhero movies.

Agreed, Aaron. I've been wondering something similar. The problem with that theory though is that the novel didn't end the genre of superhero comics by deconstruction so much as revitalize it. Unforgiven, otoh, was a bit more of a coffin nail.

Aaron, that's how it should be, but it won't be. Zack Snyder is the wrong guy to make it. 300 is well-done visually (except for all the needless slow-motion), but that's all it is. Perhaps it's because of the source material, Frank Miller's one-shot comic, to which it is rather faithful, but the film clearly cared more about visuals than anything.

I'll certainly see the movie, but this is a story that deserves better, I think, than Zack Snyder. It needs someone who cares about character development, not needlessly long action sequences that just happen to look kind of cool.

Ridley Scott would probably me my choice, although a risky one. He has Snyder's taste for visuals, but his movies, especially Blade Runner and the director's cut of the underrated if historically problematic Kingdom of Heaven, often have the deeply interesting characters like the ones in Watchmen.

Ok Matt, but how much of the greatness of Encounters was unintended comedy? I certainly thought there was a lot. Some absolutely gorgeous work though at points.

I haven't read the A.O. Scott piece, but about the "Watchmen" speculation: How can we expect "Watchmen" the film to have anything like the impact of "Watchmen" the graphic novel, when previous and current superhero movies have been influenced by "Watchmen" the graphic novel, and previous graphic novels weren't influenced by it? You can only be "first" once.

Wouldn't this thesis extend to any genre film, like "The Big Sleep," and was that not a great film? And was "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" really any more subtle and less heavy-handed in dealing with similar themes? Was that not a great film?

Meanwhile, not to be too much of a super hero apologist, I should say that over the weekend I went to see Werner Herzog's documentary Encounters at the End of the Earth and at the end of the day Herzog's made a much better film.

Noting a great documentary highlights a 20th/21st century critical preference for naturalism in art over romanticism, that would certainly be difficult for any film locked into a traditional narrative structure to overcome, especially if the protagonist is wearing a rubber batsuit.

Apparently Alan Moore is not happy about Snyder directing it either, but he hates all adaptations of his work.

I haven't read the A.O. Scott piece, but about the "Watchmen" speculation: How can we expect "Watchmen" the film to have anything like the impact of "Watchmen" the graphic novel, when previous and current superhero movies have been influenced by "Watchmen" the graphic novel, and previous graphic novels weren't influenced by it? You can only be "first" once.

Sorry about that, didn't think the first post went through.

Xenocrypt brings up a good point. My take on it as someone who has only just recently read Watchmen is that it still holds up excellently, precisely because the character development is so well done.

I have worries though too. It's very dense for a comic book, a lot of dialogue and actually not all that much action. I'm afraid the temptation will be too strong to tinker with this.

I also really liked how "dated" it was, how Cold War-centric it was. I'm also afraid that a movie version might try too hard to "update" this, and of course without the Cold War much of the way the story progresses (and ends) doesn't make much sense.

Apparently Alan Moore is not happy about Snyder directing it either, but he hates all adaptations of his work.

Well, given the track record so far, do you blame him?

What Watchmen deserves is to not be made into a movie. I realized recently that it's been at least ten years since I read a book or graphic novel and thought "Wow, I'd love to see someone make a movie out of this." When I think that it usually means I didn't like the book. If Zack Snyder loves Watchmen as much as he says, why did he want to make a movie that, by necessity, has to cut at least 50% of the content from the original work?

(I don't have this reaction to regular superhero movies, because they're telling their own story; movies like Iron Man and The Dark Knight aren't adapting a specific source material, and are free to come up with their own stories to serve the character adaptation from comic to screen.)

It seems like A.O. Scott is making the same mistake a lot of other critics make, defining greatness as a category and not as a process. To him, it doesn't matter how well-made a film is, it has to be a particular type of movie before it can be considered great.

Mike

When superhero movies become considered very, very mainstream and are very easily able to get funding without bankable guarantees in the form of big stars and well-known heroes, you'll see writers and directors taking more risks and moving outside the typical conventions.

Of course, as Aaron implies, once we get to this point, the superhero genre will be considered "played out" in movies, and that will mark the tail end of the current era, and another mass-market genre will become more popular.

The comments here are really amusing. This is my favorite:

How can we expect "Watchmen" the film to have anything like the impact of "Watchmen" the graphic novel, when previous and current superhero movies have been influenced by "Watchmen" the graphic novel, and previous graphic novels weren't influenced by it?

I must have missed the "impact" when I was outgrowing my adolescence. Yes, all over the world, that "impact" somehow went unnoticed.

Those of you who are so excited that "Watchmen" is coming out, I commend to you the words of Captain Kirk at a Trekkie convention on SNL:

"Get a life, will you, people? It was just a TV show."

Or in this case, "It was just a graphic novel." Which is even more irrelevant than a TV show.

Personally, I'm hoping for a return to the body-switching genre. I think Like Father, Like Son is aching for a remake.

Scott's criticism would carry more weight if he hadn't cited "Rio Bravo" as one of his two examples of a great, weighty Western. A pleasant and harmless diversion, to be sure, but hardly the epitome.

Shorter Scott: popular, summer-and-popcorn, mass-appeal movies are inevitably going to be less deep and philosophical than serious ones. Check. But what has more impact: a movie that gets its sleeves dirty with meaning of life questions (I dunno, Waking Life?) or a movie that raises a couple questions that might make you go hmm (hurm?) between the action scenes, but is seen by 100 times as many people?

What is Homer writing about if not superheroes?

Oh, dear god.

Also, if "Watchmen" is only as important as its "impact", then the movie adaptation will be very poor indeed. A work must stand on its own, outside of whatever impact it had at the time it came out.

A work that was "influential" when it was released but whose merits do not carry over into the future is only an artifact of historical interest. I'm pretty sure that an adaptation of Watchmen can be made which turns out to be an excellent movie (or not), but discussing whether the "impact" will carry over misses the point.

Lots of people have made this comparison before. I'm not about to argue that superhero stories as we read them today are of a higher literary quality than the Classics, but I do think it's possible that in 2,000 years, people will think about the character of Superman sort of like we think about the character of Achilles. Greatest superhero of all time: Jesus.

This is, to me, the biggest obstacle in making a Watchmen movie today that has anything approaching the thematic resonance of the original comics. 1985 was a long time ago. We still worry about nuclear war and Richard Nixon being president will still be a potent symbol for America Losing Its Way, but both these thematic elements have been superseded by history; we've moved on to new fears.

Tyro: The question of whether a work should or must "stand on its own, outside of whatever impact it had at the time it came out" is arguable. I was responding, in particular, to Aaron and Trevor J who were speculating about precisely the possible influence of a "Watchmen" film.
grown up: Yes, "Watchmen" the graphic novel had an impact only or primarily in the subculture of superhero comics, but that subculture is playing a pretty big role right now in the much larger subculture of popular movies, and that subculture is also more or less the topic of this thread, so dropping in to dismiss it is pretty pointless.

Here's the problem, Matt: people want to both dismiss the enormous, gaping plot holes in The Dark Knight (and many other comic book movies) by saying "oh it's just a summer movie" or "it's just a superhero movie". You're accused of taking these things too seriously if you actually hold these movies to a high standard. But you can't have both; people can't both complain that you shouldn't expect a coherent plot from The Dark Knight and also be angry that the movie isn't taken seriously enough.

Freddie, I think it's perfectly possible to point out that The Dark Knight is "just a summer movie" while also arguing that comic book movies, in general, can be something more than just a "summer movie."

"The Dark Knight" gets some well-deserved flak for thinking that it is more than just a summer movie, but I don't think that all comic book movies will be necessarily limited by the conventions of the genre.

Thank you Freddie.

What is Homer writing about if not superheroes?

Homer is writing about heroes, period. If you'll notice, every character in the Iliad who seems to fit the superhero (or at least superhuman) bill (Achilles, Hector, Ajax) dies outside the walls of Troy. The only hero to survive is the everyman, Odysseus (the one major character who does not have a divine parent), who wins through because of the sort of cleverness that anyone could possess. Even if he is stranded in a fantastic situation, as on the island of Polyphemus, his solutions always call upon the human mind, rather than superhuman strength or the ability to fly. Even when he is transformed into a beggar or hidden by Athena, it is as a favor from the gods rather than any sort of inborn power.

Seemed to me Eric Alterman was taking the movie pretty seriously when he said the movie had "libertarian and fascistic" elements.

So the movie wasn't politically correct? Are all superhero movies politically incorrect?

I thought Heath Ledger's Joker was great. Made me laugh.

"I just want my phone call."


Classical Greek heroic literature can't be equated with modern superheroes because the Greek heroes usually die in their poems and the modern superheroes (with some limited exceptions) always live. Most modern superhero tales are comedies (they end with the superhero getting the girl- the definition of ancient comedy), while the ancient hero is envisioned as tragic.

While I wouldn't claim that tragedy is superior to comedy, the two are very different things.

Beyond that, the classical hero usually receives his powers from the gods, i.e. precisely that his powers are miracles and awe-inspiring. The classical hero exists between normal humanity and the gods or the Good. Of course, the modern superhero precisely does not receive his powers from the gods (there are superheroes who recieve their powers from God-like entities, but it's made clear that these entities are not gods). Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're going to say Thor or Hellboy or Ghost Rider or Spawn, but all of the big superheroes - Superman, Spiderman, X-Men, Batman, Captain America, Green Lantern, etc. fit the description. And Hellboy, Ghost Rider and Spawn receive their powers from demonic entities.

It should be noted that IMDB now has "Dark Knight" rated as the #1 movie of all time (with, as of this writing, over 165,000 votes). Which leads me to wonder if the standards of what constitutes a great film have evolved/devolved from what was considered great only 10 years ago.

I guess I have to agree that there is something just inherently dopey and ridiculous about comic book superheroes and villains, and that is unavoidably going to weigh down any efforts to elevate their stories into serious adult art. These characters are built out of the mindstuff of twelve-year old male fantasies, and there is a limited amount you can do with such fantasies to turn them into characters that are compelling for the adult mind. I'm not saying that you can't do it, but you really have to work, and there always has to be some subtle interplay of drama and spoof that is tuned just right. The noir atmospherics and themes in the Batman movies, no matter how sophisticated and seriously developed, can't get viewers completely over the fact that they have to look at a guy in a moronic bat costume. There is something embarrassing about that.

I've now seen two trailers for Watchmen, and between the two of them, not a single word of dialogue. This does not make me think that it will be a good movie.

too many steves, I know! Snyder is not nor ever has been interested in any kind of human interaction that doesn't involve something "cool" looking ripping a sharp object into something else that's "cool" looking in a really "cool" 15 minute sequence in which nothing substantive happens whatsoever.

But, a question (DARK KNIGHT SPOILERS): what are the major plot holes in The Dark Knight? The fact that The Joker somehow rigged all these explosives without being seen? Even he is confused by this, saying that he in no way could have kidnapped Dent and Rachel and rigged the warehouses with explosives because, hey ho the wind and the rain, he was in captivity! Furthermore, the cop who drove Rachel to the warehouse was working for Maroni, not the Joker.

What is clear is that the Joker had a lot of thugs, some his own, some Maroni's. The only plot hole that comes to mind for me is where are all these extra thugs coming from since most of Maroni's men were supposed to be in jail. Or did the judge's murder put a thumping halt to due process? But didn't the Joker say these guys were on the penal ferry?

Last time I checked, Achilles and Hektor weren't wearing bat costumes. They existed as legend (a long time ago, in a land far away). It's apples and oranges.

Last time I checked, Achilles and Hektor weren't wearing bat costumes. They existed as legend. It's apples and oranges.

Also, as Nietzsche and Machiavelli argue, the classical hero is not possible after Christ completely changes the nature of the heroic. Christ, of course, is just as much a demigod / divine figure (the son of a god with a peasant girl) who dies and is resurrected like Osiris, Aeneas, Quetzalcoatl, Baldr, etc. However, while all or almost all other ancient heroes are warriors and statesmen (leaders of political states, founders of great cities and military generals), Jesus is the converse.

Yes, someone please list the plot holes in the Dark Knight. I have looked on both IMDb and moviemistakes.com, and none of the mistakes listed are actually plot holes.

As for Matthew Struhar's question about the thugs, not every thug in Gotham was arrested-- They say in the movie that they arrested [only] half the criminals in Gotham in one fell swoop, and that is undoubtedly hyperbole. Still lots of criminals-- and escapees from Arkham, as in the case of the honor guard assassins-- to effect the Joker's plans. (The guys on the penal ferry were described as all the people Dent put away, which would include the ones caught thanks to Lau, in addition to convicts from Dent's prior cases.)

I'm an all-brow movie fan who generally hates comic book movies. Really enjoyed the first Nolan Batman and Iron Man. This one is good but not #1 on IMDB.

What is Homer writing about if not superheroes?

Ummm, donuts?

The only hero to survive is the everyman, Odysseus (the one major character who does not have a divine parent), who wins through because of the sort of cleverness that anyone could possess.

I'm arguing mostly from a contrarian POV, so take w/ a grain of salt: isn't Odysseus's craftiness more on a preternatural level than something that the everyman can achieve? I think that old heads like Nestor are honored for their wisdom which was borne of experience and surviving into old age, both of which are far more attainable to Average Joe than Odyssean cleverness. And you could say that his cleverness is inherent to him -- see all the epithets attached to his name that describe how crafty he is -- and thus as some inborn gift from the gods (you'll excuse me if I assume that Classical genetics as a concept are explained by supernatural deities). And what everyman can expect to SPOILERS! bag a couple goddesses and still come home to a wife who's been faithful to you for 20 years?

As to other comments of the "omg comics are for kidz wtf ppl" variety:\
1. Shut up.
2. What's wrong with kid stuff? I'd put up an episode of Justice League Unlimited or Teen Titans (both cartoons, natch) against anything offered by "mature" media. (And while I'm at it, why does everyone buy into the whole notion that movies are the ultimate medium? Why not "ooh that would make a great tv series/comic book/novel/el pee"?)
3. Comics? Kid stuff? Welcome to the '80s/'70s/'60s/ad infinitum!
4. Shut up.

"If a story's quality has been compromised in order to set up the next edition of the franchise, that's a storyteller compromising his story for money."

No it's not-- it's treating the franchise rather than the installment as the fundamental storytelling unit.

Jackson's Two Towers might have been a better film if, as in the book, it had contained Frodo's encounter with Shelob. It would have made for a weaker third installment, though, and a weaker trilogy as a whole.

And while I'm at it, why does everyone buy into the whole notion that movies are the ultimate medium?

I presume that historical accident / precedence --> calcified snobbery. The commercially-imposed constraints of network TV over the past fifty years probably have a lot to do with it also. (I'm not just talking about content; I'm talking about the need to cut a third of your airtime out for commercial breaks, the dominant paradigm of running for 22-23 episodes per season, the imperative to sustain successful shows to 100 episodes so they make a valuable syndication package, etc.) I wonder if in the UK, where the structure of TV seems rather different, the best TV is held to be on an equal artistic plane with the best film. That's my personal preference, for largely the same reasons that I prefer novels to short stories.

Someone needs to rewatch The Incredibles.

Encounters at the End of the World was pretty good, though I much prefer The Dark Knight. I kind of wish Encounters would have either picked one movie to be rather than two stitched together, though. The first was a stunning visual achievement that made Antarctica look like another planet in the same way that Herzog did with the burning oil fields of Kuwait in his last masterpiece, the 45-minute Lessons of Darkness. The second was an Errol Morris-style catalog of eccentrics in the vein of Vernon, Florida. Still pretty good, but not as interesting to me as the other half, though I will commend Herzog for keeping his condescension in check.

"IMDB now has "Dark Knight" rated as the #1 movie of all time"

I wouldn't worry too much about that. The fanboy element in IMDB voting is HUGE and has been since its inception. "The Shawshank Redemption" was #2 on the list for several years, and "The Usual Suspects" was way up there for a long time, too. It's also very slanted toward recent movies. Well-received movies often debut high and then gradually slide down the Top 250 list for a couple years before settling into their long-term position on the list.

That A.O. Scott article got me so worked up, I blogged about it immediately. I think he's making the same mistake that Dan Kervick does above: Superheroes are inherently silly and you can't make a serious movie about them. That's dumb. Topic doesn't equal quality. For example, most Pixar movies are loads better and have more ideas in them than most mainstream movies. If you'd read any of the great graphic novels of the last 25 years, you'd find a few that are perfectly capable of "subtle interplay." You can argue if a great superhero movie has been made, but Scott argued that one can't be made.

THE DARK KNIGHT is inspiring many people to think. Some of these people find the route of direct allegory most accessible, tying Batman to Bush. Other's dig deeper and peel back the layers of Dent's trajectory. Why do we feel THE GODFATHER is a deeper film? The careful attention to detail, to be sure, is a factor, but is that what really draws us into the complex web? I contend that we are drawn to the mythology and philosophies depicted in these stories, more than anything else.

Full disclosure; I've seen THE DARK KNIGHT four times. I loved it and even as I became increasingly aware of the flaws (perfectly executed schemes and secrets inconcievable) I grew deeper into the psychologies of the main characters. Technically, THE DARK KNIGHT is a great movie with some serious flaws. But in my minds eye, it is an instant classic standing tall with great heroic fiction. FUCK Y'ALL.

THE DARK KNIGHT is inspiring many people to think. Some of these people find the route of direct allegory most accessible, tying Batman to Bush. Other's dig deeper and peel back the layers of Dent's trajectory. Why do we feel THE GODFATHER is a deeper film? The careful attention to detail, to be sure, is a factor, but is that what really draws us into the complex web? I contend that we are drawn to the mythology and philosophies depicted in these stories, more than anything else.

Full disclosure; I've seen THE DARK KNIGHT four times. I loved it and even as I became increasingly aware of the flaws (perfectly executed schemes and secrets inconcievable) I grew deeper into the psychologies of the main characters. Technically, THE DARK KNIGHT is a great movie with some serious flaws. But in my minds eye, it is an instant classic standing tall with great heroic fiction. F@CK Y'ALL.

THE DARK KNIGHT is inspiring many people to think. Some of these people find the route of direct allegory most accessible, tying Batman to Bush. Other's dig deeper and peel back the layers of Dent's trajectory. Why do we feel THE GODFATHER is a deeper film? The careful attention to detail, to be sure, is a factor, but is that what really draws us into the complex web? I contend that we are drawn to the mythology and philosophies depicted in these stories, more than anything else.

Full disclosure; I've seen THE DARK KNIGHT four times. I loved it and even as I became increasingly aware of the flaws (perfectly executed schemes and secrets inconcievable) I grew deeper into the psychologies of the main characters. Technically, THE DARK KNIGHT is a great movie with some serious flaws. But in my minds eye, it is an instant classic standing tall with great heroic fiction. F@CK Y'ALL.

Leee said:

2. What's wrong with kid stuff? I'd put up an episode of Justice League Unlimited or Teen Titans (both cartoons, natch) against anything offered by "mature" media. (And while I'm at it, why does everyone buy into the whole notion that movies are the ultimate medium? Why not "ooh that would make a great tv series/comic book/novel/el pee"?)

Justice League was nominated for a WGA writing award, which is pretty exceptional for any half-hour series, let alone a cartoon that is to some degree kid-friendly. You're absolutely right to use it as an example of artistically successful "kid stuff."

The box-office success of superhero pictures is accompanied by increasing critical respect. The old guard won't take this stuff seriously overnight, but it looks to me like things are moving in that direction. I for one would be glad to see this content/setting discrimination BS fade away. A Star Trek actor is not less serious than one on a cop show because he has a phaser and not a Glock, and aa good actor is still a good actor--even when dressed as a bat.


Comments closed August 12, 2008.

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