« Ratings | Main | Shark --> Kangaroo --> Human »

Know Your Right-Wing Intellectuals

20 Jul 2008 01:26 pm

There was a curious Peter Robinson post on the Corner the other day attacking David Brooks and other apostles of changing the nature of the conservative movement away from dogmatic tax cutting that, it seems, his fellow NROniks deemed very intelligent. I found it to display a curious lack of familiarity with the intellectual giants of the right:

Milton Friedman argued that government spending will always prove pernicious for the simple but profound reason that “nobody spends somebody else’s money as well as he spends his own.” Has Brooks ever refuted Friedman? No. He writes instead as if Friedman had simply never existed. Hayek argued that government intervention in the economy will always prove grossly inefficient because government planners can never acquire all the information they’d need to do a good job of allocating resources.

As John Holbo says "if Friedman proved that, and if no one has refuted him, then Milton Friedman proved that all forms of government should be abolished – including the American system of government, presumably." I think Friedman just offered a quip that's not really supported by the bulk of his work or by any serious position in political philosophy -- the irrefuted line, if taken seriously, would be a universal acid that dissolves the police and fire departments, the sidewalks, the army, everything. And Robinson is clearly searching here for a defense of orthodox American conservatism, not some novel radical doctrine.

Hayek, meanwhile, argued that Hayek argued that central planning as in the Soviet Union will always prove grossly inefficient because government planners can never acquire all the information they’d need to do a good job of allocating resources. It's an important argument. But it hardly applies to all possible intervention int he economy. It doesn't show that the provision of subsidies to the poor so as to improve their quality of life are doomed to fail. Nor does it show that there are no negative externalities that can be usefully taxed or that there are no activities featuring positive externalities that can be usefully subsidized. The point about central planning was crucially important when many people and many governments were enthusiastic about central planning. These days, in part because of the influence of Hayek's arguments, you don't see nearly so many such people and arguments tend to be about issues where Hayek's planning argument is less clearly relevant. Certainly I take it that David Brooks isn't a Communist.

Share This

Comments (37)

Anytime a progressive starts talking about the fire department, you know they are trying to rob you.

The argument is that the benefits of the fire department exceed the costs even with the inefficiencies of the government. The same can be said for the police department even though many progressive appear to want to abolish police departments.

As with all things economic, the real question is at the edges. Is the money spent for maintain thousands od Small Business contracting offices, EEO offices, public affairs offices, historian offices, etc worth the costs. The answer is of course no but that politicians cannot be other to figuring out which ones are not really needed.

If you look at things that the U.S government does like calculating the CPI or measuring the unemloyment rate, even progressives argue that the government is not every good at doing it. So how can a government that cannot measure the unemployment rate accurately be expect to manage the entire economy?

Friedman's quip is close to tautology, and is treated as a meaningful tautology by those who follow it. It ignores the origins and evolution of governance in favor of a la-di-da libertarian world.

Obviously, the NRO dude is overstating things, but the basic point, I think, is still valid. If you take a look at some of the things Brooks has advocated, like having the government provide financial planning advice for people who can't afford it, these things clearly ignore the lessons of Friedman and Hayek.

All in all, however, that post is merely a clumsy attempt to enforce conservative orthodoxy by basically stammering "but, but...Milton Friedman!" to folks like Brooks and Douthat who ignore traditional conservative reservations about bigger government, so long as that bigger government pursues "conservative" ends.

On a side note, neither Friedman and Hayek were conservatives. They were libertarians; so please don't lump them in with the likes of Russel Kirk and William F. Buckley.

Where to start...

the interstate highway system -- all the bloviating by friedman-esque blatherers screeches to a halt as they drive along the highway.

the national park system -- without it the entire US would look like a strip mall.

public education -- certainly not perfect, but infinitely better than having a state where only a few elites can actually read and think critically.

space exploration and general scientific discovery -- its strongly arguable that without state investment in these technological endeavors we would now be living in a technological environment more similar to 1960 than 2008.

EEOC, OSHA, FDA -- the only real arguments against these agencies is that they are underfunded and their mandates are not strong enough. The idea that we get rid of protections for employees from big businesses who don't care one whit if your arm gets yanked off by a machine or if you can't get a job because you're a black woman (for example) is ludicrous. We the people need protection from rapacious business practices. Enemies of these agencies/programs ignore the fact that they were created in response to real and substantial problems affecting American citizens. If you don't care about American citizens, you have no business taking part in the dialog about the limits of our government.

Okay okay -- you win -- some bloviating jerk from the U of Chicago mouthing off about government BAD a half century ago should dictate to us in 2008 how to live and govern ourselves. Of course, MF and his ilk don't ONLY have bad ideas. There are important points to be made about the limits of government. What's ridiculous is that NRO types love government intervention when its for a cause they support (e.g. taking away a woman's right to abortion, limiting gay (American citizens) rights). They talk out of both sides and their supposed "principles" have been ground up under the tide of progress.

The NRO and its ilk have more and more come to resemble the last remaining cul de sac of bitter rich white men who just can't stand it that the rest of us are also making money and living healthy happy and empowered lives. Makes me think of Fareed Zakaria's notion of "the rise of the rest". Get used to it fatboy Rove -- us common plebs will now have access to your coveted "gold-plated" health plan... man its makes me smile to remember that sniveling little jerk whining about how we can't ALL have good health insurance. Amazing that a man sucking from the government tit for his health insurance mocks the hand that feeds and follows an agenda of reducing govt to handouts for the wealthy. Oh yeah -- trickle down theory. Yea to corporate welfare and the Oligarchic States of America! Down with the USA, up with the OSA!! (the new "honesty is the best policy" repuglican motto).

Anytime a progressive starts talking about the fire department, you know they are trying to rob you.

Any time a blog commenter dubs themselves something like "superdestroyer," you know you're in for a heaping helping of right wing strawcrap. Please, please, superd, please start up a weblog (be sure to provide a photo) so that tbogg has more material to entertain the reality-based blog community.

You know, it's not just capital that's reallocated (and I can agree that most of the time, individuals and businesses allocate capital more efficiently than government) but the other two pieces of the economic function, labor and land also face reallocation.

Thing is, labor is people and land is nature. We liberals/progressives think there's a big moral problem treating people and nature like simple units than can be reallocated at each economic whim.

That's one of (but not the only) central reason why liberals are liberals, and why we like the government to help smooth the economic hardships that inevitably arise in a system w/o perfect or complete information, especially in a society as obviously wealthy as our own.

Consistent healthcare, help with unemployment insurance and education and housing, this is so much to ask?

There are some conservatives (esp. Libertarians)who have read more Hayek than The Road to Serfdom but many (many, many, many) more who have not. Hayek at times is fairly explicit in endorsing a government run safety net for the least fortunate. In The Constitution of Liberty, Hayek also suggests that Government should regulate schools, natural resources, transportation, etc. The Road to Serfdom is a political tract and was intended as such; Hayek's other works are much more nuanced and deserve greater attention!

Milton Friedman's favorite test case for these ideas was a military dictatorship in Chile in which his notions of "limited" government intervention failed so spectacularly they had to renationalize and the banking system and at one point restrict the trading of currency because of an economic collapse caused by these kinds of ideological "anti-government" policies. Chile only recovered because they took a more moderate approach afterwards and stopped listening to the kind of extreme ideology this post espouses as undisputed fact.

Milton Friedman's favorite test case for these ideas was a military dictatorship in Chile in which his notions of "limited" government intervention failed so spectacularly they had to renationalize the banking system and at one point restrict the trading of currency because of an economic collapse caused by these kinds of ideological "anti-government" policies. Chile only recovered because they took a more moderate approach afterwards and stopped listening to the kind of extreme ideology this post espouses as undisputed fact.

Is the money spent for maintain thousands od Small Business contracting offices, EEO offices, public affairs offices, historian offices, etc worth the costs.

Except an Austrian wouldn't argue that; a pure Austrian would argue that you need/want as little government as you can get away with as inefficiency and creeping oppression tend to destroy consume everything. That's not no government.

Of course, Friedman is Chicago-school, and he generally tended to more tolerant (in practice) of government than Hayek and that lot.

What really goes mostly uncommented is that Laffer curve-invoking supply-siders are a really a "school" unto their own, with no coherent principles other than the adherence to the theory of the curve. [The Laffer curve being more or less a linear "curve" indicating that, when comparing alternate universes, a country with 100% of the economy under government control will experience no growth versus the same oountry of an alternate universe with 0% of the economy under control of the government and therefore, supposedly, 100% growth. Whatever 100% growth is supposed to be exactly.] There's no evidence for it or against exactly, not having an alternate-universe-traveling machine, and the theoretical underpinnings consist of the napkin it was drawn on. You could call it vulgar Friedmanism is you feel a strong urge to insult Friedman.

Certainly I take it that David Brooks isn't a Communist.

Why? Looks like a commie, smells likes a commie, walks like a commie: IT'S A COMMIE!

You can illustrate the faultlines in the current New Age Totalitarian Party if you label the neo-cons the commies, the NRO types as the facists and the Bushian/Evangelical people as the Francoites. Because it's a New World Order!

('The Mayberry Community Players present: The Great Disasters of Totalitarianism, a three-act administration. All singing! All dancing!')

max
['Sure to be nominated for a Tony!']

It's a little late in the day to be "shocked, shocked" at the realization that US Conservatism is fueled by radical theories of market based economic determinism. Where have you been for the last 30 plus years? Did you think they were kidding?

These are the same folks who thought "drowning government in the bathtub" was an intelligent statement of policy goals. Who argued that Pinochet was less authoritarian than Allende because he overthrew a democratically elected government in order to make Chile safe for the Chicago school of Economics. Who twice shut down the Federal Government in the 1990's on the blissful assumption that the great unwashed US public would suddenly realize that government was irrelevant to their lives and convert to a radical anti-Government attitude. Who, most recently, threw overboard every traditional Conservative and Constitutional principle, in order that Iraq be invaded and transformed into a lab model for their theories.

Given all this, there is nothing at all "curious" about Robinson's argument. What is remarkable is that, after all we have witnessed, you would think otherwise.

BTW, contra Jeff, Hayek explicitly repudiated the label of Libertarian as defined by its usage in the US.

There was a curious Peter Robinson post on the Corner the other day attacking David Brooks and other apostles of changing the nature of the conservative movement away from dogmatic tax cutting that, it seems, his fellow NROniks deemed very intelligent.

These conservatives are just telling conservatives who feel turned off by the Republicans' selfishness and mismanagement of our country what they want to hear.

It will really be back to the same old song after every election, unless the Democrats have the upper hand in terms of winning the White House and a winning amount of seats in both houses of congress.

It's worth pointing out that even what Hayek "proved" isn't really a natural law or anything. Not that I generally advocate for a command economy, but computers do change the game quite a lot. If every product has an RFID tag, and detailed information about demand and supply can be relayed instantly to the government, they can actually aquire an enormous amount of data about what people need.

Also, the US in the 40s had a basically command economy complete with nationalized major industries, price controls and rationing. It worked pretty well, though again, I wouldn't really recommend it as a standard way to run an economy.

Anyway, I haven't read The Road to Serfdom, so perhaps his thesis can deal with those points.

What we really need are acandals like the U.S. attorney political purge to be treated like crimes, and e-discovery to implicate as many career Republicans as possible and pack them off to prison.

We need legal purges of the Republicans who are crooks and who have a vested interest in breaking the rules and the law, instead of bending the rules to interpret the things they do as legal, investigations that go nowhere, or slaps on the wrist.

The core problem with the Hayek critique is not the Hayek critique per se, but the common unwillingness to take the complementary limitation of markets into account, which is that no market can design a complex system.

This is sidestepped in traditional marginalist economics by assuming the existence of a blueprint of designs, with a constant process of marginal evaluation of when a particular design has become useful, at which point innovation occurs, which is nothing more than begging the question.

It is sidestepped in Austrian work by creating a special, unique skill of entrepreneurship, and vesting the ability to create complex systems in the hands of entrepreneurs ... which of course becomes problematic when the design process is spread across layers of private corporate-government bureaucracy.

Given that markets cannot design complex systems, and given that a central planning system cannot possibly cope with the complexity of running all aspects of a modern industrial economy on a central planning basis, it is necessary to prioritize what must be done by public central planning ... trying to do too much will leave the highest priority public planning tasks without the attention that they require.

I have read 'the road to serfdom' and I think conservatives would be surprised at how relatively moderate it really is.

We need legal purges of the Republicans who are crooks and who have a vested interest in breaking the rules and the law, instead of bending the rules to interpret the things they do as legal, investigations that go nowhere, or slaps on the wrist.

I don't know if this is too strong or not, but obviously finding and closing up a lot of avenues for corruption is something that should be as high on the Democrats' list of priorities as anything. If our think tanks were really working for us, they would have had people taking careful notes all during Bush's two terms and thinking up how we can make sure less of this stuff is possible in the future. The real ultimate lesson of Bush's terms, even more than lessons about global warming or anything else might be, is that our federal government is vulnerable to a lot of corruption and the Republicans are perfectly willing to exploit that.

Jeez, people continually misread Hayek. Especially the right wing. His main concern is about, as you say, central planning. But the problem he has with government intervention as an attempt to control human affairs is about the necessary arbitrariness of that intervention, most certainly NOT the need for a strong regulatory state. In this sense, planning is doomed to fail and lead to totalitarianism. Instead Hayek counterpoises planning against the rule of law as the standard under which interventions should work, arguing that an unfettered market, backed up by a firm and unambiguous set of rules, provide the necessary flexibility for people to act in response in a way adequate to their own needs and demands. Regardless of whether Hayek is right about the doomed nature of planning (his argument rests on a very slipperly slope), a strong state with an elaborate regulatory apparatus is fully consistent with his schema.

"Hayek, meanwhile, argued that Hayek argued that..." Good Lord, do some proofreading, will ya?

Here's a view from the west coast, courtesy of today's LA Times...

Downsizing government to death
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-lotke20-2008jul20,0,1958019.story

Certainly I take it that David Brooks isn't a Communist.

If by "isn't a Communist" you mean "is an elitist fuckhead," then you're spot on. Well, he is.

The real M. Taibbi?

Mike Taibbi, posting a comment, HERE? OMG!!!

I loved you on Dateline! What's Ann Curry really like?

Friedman must've had George W. Bush in mind. Dubya was an obnoxious drunk who burned through his daddys' friends' money like it was going out of style. Then he became President and did much, much worse.


There are some conservatives (esp. Libertarians)who have read more Hayek than The Road to Serfdom but many (many, many, many) more who have not. Hayek at times is fairly explicit in endorsing a government run safety net for the least fortunate. In The Constitution of Liberty, Hayek also suggests that Government should regulate schools, natural resources, transportation, etc. The Road to Serfdom is a political tract and was intended as such; Hayek's other works are much more nuanced and deserve greater attention!

I've only read Road to Serfdom, and if he wasn't actively advocating a safety net for the poor, he at least went well out of his way to allow for how it was 100% compatible with what he was arguing.

Did you see more about her? She has a nice pro file with hot pics on a single's club named 'ric h kis s . co m'. She's attractive, sexy and popular there. Maybe you can check it out.

Did you see more about her? She has a nice pro file with hot pics on a single's club named 'ric h kis s . co m'. She's attractive, sexy and popular there. Maybe you can check it out.

“nobody spends somebody else’s money as well as he spends his own.”

Hah! What a laugh! Has anybody taken a look at what banks and financial companies have spent their money on recently? And GM's investing untold millions into SUV's certainly doesn't look good in hindsight, either.

Sheesh . . . .

Another one of Matt's pointless posts about libertarianism that he can't even begin to understand, not having any background in economics, libertarianism or much of anything else meaningful.

Hayek was never a libertarian. He was an Austrian economist. The two are not synonymous even though most libertarians on the right argue for Austrian economics.

There are some decent economic arguments about the nature of monopolies which establish that government - any government - must be both a coercive monopoly and imperialist to the degree that it's relative position in the real world of military and economic power allows.

There are NO arguments that establish that government can be either efficient, effective or non-coercive or non-imperialist. It's all religion on the part of ninety-eight percent of the population.

Arguing against the state with either a liberal or a conservative is like arguing against God with a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim, i.e., a waste of time.

Only a DC Wonk would think that corporate executives or corporate boards are spending their own money.

Sheesh......

The crucial background to The Road To Serfdom is this: He was Austrian, but fled to Britain after the Anschluss in 1938. He worried a very great deal that there was a push in the non-Nazi West for more institutions of the kind the Nazis were using to advance their concerns, and that the Soviets had been using for their own ends. He thought that Western intellectuals and policy-makers weren't giving nearly enough attention to the way structures set up with good intentions could be taken over and used for bad ones.

As far as that goes, he was right. It's always a good idea to ask what a particular power could do in the hands of the people you like least. If there'd been more of that in the '80s and '90s, the Bush-Cheney mob would have had a harder, slower time.

Where Hayek went wrong is in thinking that social institutions were the linchpin of encroaching tyranny. When tyranny actually hit the US, its major tools were the police power and the military, plus intelligence. It's the core functions of the state, the ones that everyone this side of anarchy agrees are legitimate for the state, that most fully serve the tyrant. If anything, the experience of recent decades suggests the generalization that the weaker the social safety net, the more prone a nation may be to tyranny and imperialism.

Where Hayek went wrong is in thinking that social institutions were the linchpin of encroaching tyranny. When tyranny actually hit the US, its major tools were the police power and the military, plus intelligence. It's the core functions of the state, the ones that everyone this side of anarchy agrees are legitimate for the state, that most fully serve the tyrant.

One of the peculiarities of right Libertarian political thought has been its insistence that the best way to fight the coercive power of the state is to reduce it to those functions which are purely coercive in character. To whit, the police and military functions which comprise the state monopoly on violence. Their solution to the problem of Government coercion is to create a Government which consists almost entirely of armed coercive functions.

If anything, the experience of recent decades suggests the generalization that the weaker the social safety net, the more prone a nation may be to tyranny and imperialism.

Doesn't it comes down to the question correlation vs causation? One could as well suggest that a weaker social safety net is the logical consequence of tyranny and imperialism.

Given where the right wing is these days, and what it stands for (and against), isn't "right-wing intellectual" an oxymoron at this point?

W.B. Reeves: I think that some things are both causes and effects, and that social vulnerability and tyranny at home and/or imperialism abroad are like that. At least part of my motive is just to goad those saying "our lack of mutual cooperation for the general good is FREEDOM" with the alternative interpretation, "our lack of mutual cooperation for the general good makes us suckers for con men and warmongers".

I think that a fair number of the dogmatic right libertarians are among those who don't really believe in equal footings. As with a lot of the Republican base, they see the world in terms of power, and every exchange secretly has a dominant partner and a submissive one. Someone's got to "win" in some sense. This conviction makes one vulnerable to a whole lot of stupid sleaze.

Max wrote:

"[The Laffer curve being more or less a linear "curve" indicating that, when comparing alternate universes, a country with 100% of the economy under government control will experience no growth versus the same oountry of an alternate universe with 0% of the economy under control of the government and therefore, supposedly, 100% growth. Whatever 100% growth is supposed to be exactly.]"

What is it about the Internet that makes people stand up, clear their throats, and publicly make fools of themselves in front of thousands of people?

Max, you clearly simply have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what you are talking about. You could have actually found out what the Laffer Curve IS with about 30 seconds of Googling. But hey, I'm sure picked up the gist of it from thinkprogress, right? /insert eyeroll/

I was going to leave it at that, but this is actually pretty funny. You bring up the Laffer Curve, describe it as a "linear curve" (??), then proceed to belittle what as far as I can tell would be the "Laffer Line." Uh, Max, it's called the Laffer CURVE for a reason. Look it up.

- Alaska Jack

Alaska, you might want to note the scare quotes he used around the word curve and then the preceding linear might make more sense.

If you don't understand his point, draw this curve for us.

Ed -

I'm not sure how you expect me to draw anything in this forum, but the Laffer Curve is called a "curve" because, in fact ... it's a curve.

The LC describes a simple truism -- that there is an optimum level of taxation that maximizes economic growth and hence government revenue. Tax too low, and the government misses out on revenue. But tax too *high*, and the government *also* misses out on revenue by stifling economic growth.

Like I said, a curve, or an arc. Revenue on the y axis, taxation on the x. As taxation goes up, revenue goes up ... until you hit the optimum rate of taxation. Then revenue starts going down again.

It's not rocket science, and believe it or not, Laffer is quite a modest and humble guy. He has repeatedly pointed out that he didn't invent the concept, it was just his explanation of it that got popularized.

- AJ


Comments closed August 03, 2008.

Copyright © 2008 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.