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Low Standards

29 Jul 2008 10:23 am

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I see Eric Alterman paid closer attention than I did to Jamie Kirchick's missive about J Street from last week and found this important nugget. Kirchick writes:

The attempt by people like Ben-Ami, Alterman, Yglesias, Klein et.al. to portray their advocacy of unconditional Israeli negotiations with Iran and Hamas, unconditional Israeli territorial concessions, the Palestinian "right of return," (among other extreme positions) as having any truck within the mainstream of Jewish, American or Israeli opinion, while also having the gall to allege that anyone remotely to their right is an extremist, is something that psychologists call "projection.

Eric responds:

Well, excuse me, young man, I've never taken any position at all on Israeli negotiations with Iran or Hamas, the Palestinian right of return, or even "unconditional" territorial concessions, much less advocate for them. You are simply making that up. My guess is that neither have Matthew Yglesias or Ezra Klein, but they can speak for themselves.

I'm fairly certain I have said that Israel should negotiate with Hamas (certainly I do think Israel should negotiate with Hamas) but I don't think I've ever said anything about direct Israeli talks with Iran, which I think is too unrealistic on both sides to be a plausible idea, and I definitely don't favor a robust "right of return" that would see millions of Palestinians moving to Israel proper. I'm not sure I understand what unilateral territorial concessions are supposed to mean in this context -- are we supposed to understand Ariel Sharon as a fringe left-wing extremist for his Gaza withdrawal plan? I dunno.

Eric remarks that "One would think that the magazine that unleashed Stephen Glass (and Ruth Shalit) on the world would be more careful before empowering yet another young person with no journalistic credentials to make fantastic allegations merely because they happen to be consistent with the prejudices of the people who run it." I'm a blogger by trade, so I understand that mistakes happen in this medium and that it's not realistic to rigorously fact-check after post ex ante. Still, this is far from the first time that I've seen Kirchick attribute views to me that I don't hold. Sometimes he says I think things when I've written the reverse in books he claims to have read. It's an annoying habit, and it's especially annoying to know that there will be absolutely no consequences for this sort of thing and that he'll go on to have a long and successful career.

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Comments (88)

The thing is, Matt, that other people -- or at least, liberals -- aren't real people to Kirchick.

You're just nametags he applies to members of his political demonology, so people will think he's talking about reality and not just raving about the fantasies in his head.

Who says satire is dead on the web?

MY:
Why not come right out and say Kirchick is a POS? It's what he is. You said he's made stuff up about you more than once. How many more times does he need to do it before you call him a liar?

Will the Right ever stop using "unconditional" to mean "without preconditions", which it obviously doesn't mean?

Is that usage the biggest, latest load of horseshit, or is there some fresher stuff?

Yeah, but a long and successful career as what? He is just another in a long line of people following in Morton Downey Jr.'s footsteps, and I wouldn't be too concerned about niche-entertainers like that--they can become rich, but they also need to abuse OxyContin to sleep at night.

See, this is just more proof that conservative = intellectually dishonest liar

Why not come right out and say Kirchick is a POS?

Matt's counting on us, his surrogates, to do it for him.
Happy to oblige: Kirchick is a worthless, lying hack.

I didn'teven know you were jewish.

Marty Peretz's latest boy toy making shit up, attacking liberals with easily disproven falsehoods, and advocating for continued colonial domination in the pages of The New Racist?

egads! gadzooks! what a complete and utter surprise.

Matt, you really need to proofread these things before posting. That last sentence should read:

it's especially annoying to know that the consequences for this sort of thing will be that he'll go on to have a long and successful career.

Marty Peretz's latest boy toy making shit up, attacking liberals with easily disproven falsehoods, and advocating for continued colonial domination in the pages of The New Racist?

egads! gadzooks! what a complete and utter surprise.

Must make your teeth itch that you actually agreed to a Bloggingheads segment with such a pile of manure, eh?

These things happen, and will continue to happen so long as there is no meritocracy in the DC media establishment. What halfway-sensible person believes that Kirchick, Lopez, Goldberg, Broder, or other famous and somewhat-famous writers, have any merit-based claims on their positions? They had a patron, either back in the day or the day before yesterday, and that's why they are with us today. When people are bad at their jobs almost all the time, you have to look for how they got there.

I forgot that was him on bloggingheads. Matt was talking about Jesse Helms and Kirchick started talking about Jimmy Carter and I was totally confused. What does Jesse Helms racist crap have to do with Jimmy Carter?

It wasn't until half an hour after I finished listening to to it that I realized that while he wouldn't go there the reason he brought it up was to try and make the case that Jimmy Carter was an anti-semitic, Hitler, wannabe trying to kill all the Jews but didn't quite have the balls to go there.

The thing is, Matt, that other people -- or at least, liberals -- aren't real people to Kirchick.

No, Kirchick is arguing with a Straw Jew.
.

matt,

i think it's time you rendezvous with kirchick over at bloggingheads again so that you can bitch-slap him once more.
that seemed to settle him down for a while.
it seems like you might have to administer that kind of therapy occasionally to keep that idiot in line.
do us all a favor and try to explain the facts of life to him, again.
kirchick is the kind of guy who gives affirmative action a bad name.

The number of people who try to drown their manhood issues in hysterical fantasies of themselves as defenders of Israel is truly depressing.

The number of people who try to drown their manhood issues in hysterical fantasies of themselves as defenders of Israel is truly depressing.

No, Kirchick is arguing with a Straw Jew.

Hm. Cf. the Tao Te Ching:

Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs; the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs.

Hence, Kirchick is ruthless like a sage?

Kirchick is a thug who (after trial) should be bound hand and foot, have his feet tied to the back of a pick up truck with a chain, and be dragged through town behind the truck at high speed.

Wow, no one does acerbic takedown like Alterman. And good for him, he was in the vanguard of respectable anti-Peretz-ism long before anyone had heard of Mearsheimer and Walt.

Wow, Ruth Shalit one-time it girl of opinion journalism. She was like the Yglesias of 1995 or something. Careful when you cut-and-paste your notes Matt.

If by successful you mean he can someday be like Jon Chait (peretz's previous boytoy), don't worry about it Matt, far more people know who you or Glenn or Sullivan are than these elite douchebags. I'm glad spackerman left those motherfuckers.

are we supposed to understand Ariel Sharon as a fringe left-wing extremist for his Gaza withdrawal plan?

Is that not the consensus view among Serious (TM) Pundits?

I definitely don't favor a robust "right of return" that would see millions of Palestinians moving to Israel proper.

Well this is a rather strange double standard: the right of return for Jews dispossessed thousands of years ago, but not for Palestinians dispossessed 50 years ago?

Oh, and btw, yes Kirchick is a POS. I don't know why anyone bothers to respond to the guy - it only cloaks him with the pretense of legitimacy.

Re McKingford

As soon as Mr. McKingford advocates returning the land stolen by European settlers to the rightful Native American owners, we will take his comment seriously. Until then, he's just another Israel bashing fucktard, like Mr. otto, Mr. Hack, Mr. Trevor, Mr. Williams, etc.

McKingford, I think a good deal of the response is more about Kirchick as a phenomenon -- talentless, dishonest idiot getting high-profile media position -- than about his ideas as contributions to the public square.

"long and successful career."

I think you're going to have a pretty long and successful career too. It's been predicted by many you're going to wind up buying Broder's house.

As soon as Mr. McKingford advocates returning the land stolen by European settlers to the rightful Native American owners

I prefer to think of us as exercising a 999-year lease.

SLC,

I'm not Jewish, but I do recommend some sort of realistic reparations for the original inhabitants, like deeding one of the indigenous groups, oh, Oklahoma City.

Then we should work on reparations for The Debt, America's equally shameful Original Sin.

And so forth.

Now, can we get a similar plan from you?

And don't mumble about "all deliberate speed."

"something that psychologists call "projection."

as in : Is that a banana in your pocket or are you projecting?

Kirchick's projecting like an adolescent rabbit.

No, Kirchick is arguing with a Straw Jew.

A Jewish anti-semite, if Cathy Young is to be believed.

Hmmm...I wonder if Guiness would be willing to recognize that as the world's largest "If."

SLC, you peckerheaded apartheidnik, you're so slavish in your zionism that you fail to realize how your example entirely undermines whatever point you were trying to make about the right of return. I'm not going to excuse the dispossession of Amerindians of their lands (so will you treat my argument seriously now?), but:

a) at least in Canada (which I'm familiar with), there has been an extensive land claims settlement process that is far more generous than anything Israel has ever done;
b) Native still retain the right to citizenship, you dumb fuck.

You know, as tiring as your little tirades are, they might be marginally more tolerable if you weren't so fucking stupid.

Nothing has changed at the New Republic since Stephen Glass. It'd be best if journalists with integrity would just start ignoring the place so that it can die a well-deserved death.

Purely as a matter of strategy SLC, I'd lay low on the right of return argument if I were you. Every serious person on every side of the issue knows that, once negotiations get serious, the right of return (for Israel proper) is getting negotiated away by the Palestinians in return for other considerations v(territorial and financial).

Given that reality, the LAST thing you want to do is get people re-arguing the substantive point (where even people sympathetic to Israel realize that there are historical and humanitarian arguments in favor of the right of return), as opposed to the "on the ground" reality.

And as McKingford pointed out, albeit somewhat impolitely, your analogy, fully unpacked, doesn't necessarily support your position as much as you think it does.

The TNR exist to trash up the world, but it's being closely followed by Newsweek and Time.

Between the three, it's a full blown contest to see who can tell the biggest whopper, be it wiretapping, torture or war in Iraq, while firing all the lesser journalist that tried to actually do their jobs as these mags implode. What is left is merely the gossip crew that are dependent on each others ability to agree with each others lies so as not to self-incrimination or implode the last vestige of accountability.

You just can't find honest news anymore, at least not without the net. So at last we can stop the presses and save all the trees, because nobody really needs their daily lie fix from these guys who do nothing, and are nothing every single day of the week.

The TNR exist to trash up the world, but it's being closely followed by Newsweek and Time.

Between the three, it's a full blown contest to see who can tell the biggest whopper, be it wiretapping, torture or war in Iraq, while firing all the lesser journalist that tried to actually do their jobs as these mags implode. What is left is merely the gossip crew that are dependent on each others ability to agree with each others lies so as not to self-incrimination or implode the last vestige of accountability.

You just can't find honest news anymore, at least not without the net. So at last we can stop the presses and save all the trees, because nobody really needs their daily lie fix from these guys who do nothing, and are nothing every single day of the week.

MY, I know its bad that people say things about you which are inaccurate, but it's much worse that people are saying and doing things to lay the groundwork for a US and/or Israeli war with Iran. So let's keep some perspective here.

Hey, Unca SLC! Tell us the story again about how the anonymous dude bravely withstood the attack by the dead rabbit and proved that Obama's birth certificate is fake without ever actually seeing a copy of it! Pleeeease?

Nothing has changed at the New Republic since Stephen Glass. It'd be best if journalists with integrity would just start ignoring the place so that it can die a well-deserved death.


Posted by IvanG

Sure it has -- it's gotten more strident and less conscientious.

The end to the long and successful careers of the Jamie Kirchiks of the world will be the demise of the New Republic. Which probably isn't too far in the future, the way it's been shedding readership and revenues.

That would require a decision on whether or not to accept wingnut welfare -- all that will be on offer by then -- or find another line of work.

Kirchick is a worthless, lying hack.

As George Constanza reminds us, it's not a lie if you believe it.

*Costanza*

Elsewhere on The Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg interviews Joe Klein who makes a comment relevant to the Kirchick worldview:

Listen, people can vote whichever way they want, for whatever reason they want. I just don't want to see policy makers who make decisions on the basis of whether American policy will benefit Israel or not. In some cases, you want to provide protection for Israel certainly, but you don't want to go to war with Iran. When Jennifer Rubin or Abe Foxman calls me antisemitic, they're wrong. I am anti-neoconservative. I think these people are following very perversely extremist policies and I really did believe that it was time for mainstream Jews to stand up and say, "They don't represent us, they don't represent Israel."

So SLC,

Even you admit that Palestinian land was stolen.

Remember the USS Liberty!

Folks,

Leave SLC alone!!! the man is suffering from David Mamet Syndrome. As clearly stated by Mr Mamat in the village voice piece not too long ago, this schizopherenic parnoia is nothing to be taken lightly.

Please show some sympathy for a fellow human being ... albeit a loony zionist.

Let's all hope he has enough coverage for his meds.

Wanna see my Martin Peretz impersonation?

Ahem:

MP:...with large fries, and a Coke. And can I get some ketchup packets?

Cashier: I'm sorry, we ran out ketchup packets. There's a pump over there.

MP: Sigggggghhhhhhhhh. It is with great pain that I am forced to conclude that this slight by the McDonald's corporation (which has numerous outlets in Saudi Arabia) is an expression of the virulent anti-semitism streching back to the medieval passion plays which were once so popular in Scotland, and which so pervuades our media, government, and the so-called anti-war left in particular.


Seriously, Martin Perets is a freaking loon. He once wrote a column blaming the ousting of Larry Summers on "Jew-hatred" among the faculty of Harvard.

As soon as Mr. McKingford advocates returning the land stolen by European settlers to the rightful Native American owners

I prefer to think of us as exercising a 999-year lease.

Martin Peretz is Uncle Leo from Seinfeld


"Mattheeewww, Hellooooooo"

Re McKingford

What cocksucking fucktard Mr. McKingford fails to acknowledge is that every square inch of both North and South America was stolen from Native Americans by European settlers. Not only that, Native Americans were subject to ethnic cleansing that approaches genocide.

Re Larry M

Mr. Larry M is being highly optimistic in assuming that the Palestinians will agree to drop the demand that those living in refugee camps be resettled in Israel. That is the issue standing in the way of an agreement today, as it has for 60 years. IMHO, the Palestinians will not agree to drop this demand and the Government of Israel will under no circumstances cave in to it.

Re Hameed

Just to show how uncivilized and savage Mr. Hameed and his fellow Arabs are, attached is an article about male rape in Iraq.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/24/gay.iraqis/#cnnSTCText

Also, the link below has a number of comments about this sort of behavior which is endemic in the Arab World.

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/07/gays_in_iraq.php#more

Re Pale Scot

I admit no such thing. As for the Liberty, I have previously posted information on that incident which indicates that it occurred because of a breakdown in communication between the CIA and the Navy. The CIA informed the Israeli military attache in Washington that the ship, which was acting as a spy ship for Israel by intercepting Egyptian communications, that the ship would be removed from its location off the Sinai coast but forgot to tell the Navy to remove the ship. The next morning, Israeli pilots spotted the ship, which was not flying a flag, and reported back to their headquarters, which, acting under the assumption that the Liberty was gone assumed that it was a Russian ship intercepting Israeli communications and ordered the attack. The notion that the IAF deliberately attacked a US Naval vessel is on a par with the notion that the moon landings were fake.

Re live

Mr. live is obviously somewhat retarded. The claim being made is that the images posted on Daily Kos and the senators' web site of what purports to be Senator Osamas' birth certificates are phony. Senator Osama can, at any time, produce certified copies of his Hawaiian birth certificate, if it exists, and put the matter to rest.

Land-owners in Eastern Europe who were dispossessed by the Communists got their land back when the Communists were overthrown. So surely Palestinians should get their land back after the Zionists are overthrown.

I didn't "fail to acknowledge" that the entire Americas were stolen from Amerindians or that they were subject to genocide because it wasn't in issue - just as I didn't "fail to acknowledge" that E=MC2. But now that you've put it on the table, I'll readily concede the issue.

This leaves me a little confused about your point, though, which is hardly a surprised, given how fucking dumb it is: are you saying that Israel is similarly engaged in genocide against the Palestinians, or simply that because of the European conquest anything goes as far as Israel is concerned? Somehow I don't think you are advancing the cause of zionism here.

And you still haven't addressed the other fallacy in your convoluted logic, namely that as bad as anything the Europeans did to the natives, the natives *still* retain the right of citizenship

Mr. Larry M is being highly optimistic in assuming that the Palestinians will agree to drop the demand that those living in refugee camps be resettled in Israel. That is the issue standing in the way of an agreement today, as it has for 60 years. IMHO, the Palestinians will not agree to drop this demand and the Government of Israel will under no circumstances cave in to it.

SLC, you keep SAYING that, but without any real evidence to back it up. Oh, sure, the Palestinian leadership hasn't dropped that particular demand unilaterally prior to the start of any negotiations - but really, WTF do you expect? Moreover, the Arab world as a whole (the leadership, anyway) has increasingly signaled that they realize that the right of return is a no go, aside from perhaps some token returns, and, more to the point, massive compensation.

I mean, I might as easily (and IMO more accurately) say that Israeli intransigence w/r/t to the settlements and Jerusalem is to blame for the current impasse - but we all realize (well, hope) that, when push comes to shove, Israel will make the hard choices needed for peace.

IMO the biggest barrier to peace right now is the virtual veto power each side's extremists have over a final settlement.* Both sides are afraid of what the extremists will do to sabotage a peace plan is one is negotiated. I don't have to convince you that that is a problem vis a vis Palestinian extremists; I shouldn't have to convince you that that is true of Israeli extremists (see, e.g., Yigal Amir).

Oh, and regarding the alleged savagery of the Arabs - hmm, let's see, has any Arab nation elected, in fully free elections, two mass murdering torturers to be president and vice president? By your logic, the people of the United States are savages, who don't deserve to be treated as human beings. Now, I might even agree on the first part of that statement (definitely NOT the second part), but as for the Arab world, I see people on the whole much like most people, living under difficult circumstances, some of them acting with decency, many of them not. Like most peoples, no worse than the Israelis, much better than the citezens of the United States.

*Which isn't to say that there aren't people on both sides with less noble motives, including but not limited to people, again on both sides, who don't want peace on any reasonable terms.

McKingford: Well this is a rather strange double standard: the right of return for Jews dispossessed thousands of years ago, but not for Palestinians dispossessed 50 years ago?

What a strange comparison.

The Palestinians left their own homes in 1948 when their own leadership made up lies about the on-coming Jewish army (the raping of pregnant Arab women was my favorite) in order to gin up resistance. But it backfired and the Palestinians fled their homes.

Whoops.

The Palestinians were offered the right of return in 1948 in UN GA Res. 194, but rejected it then because they thought they had more negotiating leverage than they did.

Whoops.

Israel has offered them financial compensation, but they declined.

Whoops.

The Palestinians remain the longest-standing unabsorbed refugee group in the world, denied citizen by the same Arab countries that use the Palestinians as fodder for their extremists.

But since we're all being dicks about this, how about the world just recognize the Balfour Declaration and call it even? Israel takes the self-defeating Palestinians back in exchange for quadrupling the size of the country.

If only there were a way for Jamie Kirchick to document his accusations, say by quoting and linking to the purported statements by Matt, Alterman, etc.

Oh, right; there is.

Inter-column and inter-blog debate on the web is no different from that in a moderated comments section (I mean one that's really moderated, not this one): unmet requests for links and excerpts to document assertions mean the asserter loses the point. Repeated cases of same means no one needs to take the asserter's points very seriously.

Dear SLC

I am Iranian. But that's okay sweetheart. I understand the pain you are going through.

Take the meds.

Re McKingford

And there are in excess of 1 million Arabs living in Israel who are citizens of that country.

However, like all Israel bashers who whine about Fakestinian refugees, lets talk about the Jews who were expelled from various Arab countries, in particular some 1/2 million from Iraq. Of course, to assholes like Mr. McKingford, they don't count.

Re Larry M

Apparently, Mr. Larry M approves of male rape. Well, to each his own.

"The Palestinians left their own homes in 1948 when their own leadership made up lies about the on-coming Jewish army (the raping of pregnant Arab women was my favorite) in order to gin up resistance. But it backfired and the Palestinians fled their homes."


"According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg.”

says insane Arab liar Benny Morris.

Anyway, who gives a fuck what Kirchick says? He's a complete fuckwit, which is apparent to anyone who reads him or hears him speak. I often feel it must be truly embarrassing to genuine ideological conservatives to get lumped in with these clowns

"The Palestinians left their own homes in 1948 when their own leadership made up lies about the on-coming Jewish army (the raping of pregnant Arab women was my favorite) in order to gin up resistance. But it backfired and the Palestinians fled their homes."


"According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg.”

says insane Arab liar Benny Morris.

Anyway, who gives a fuck what Kirchick says? He's a complete fuckwit, which is apparent to anyone who reads him or hears him speak. I often feel it must be truly embarrassing to genuine ideological conservatives to get lumped in with these clowns

So why don't you support the right of return of the Palestinian people to the land on which they lived before 1948? You should. Especially given the right of return for Jew to the same land on which they hadn't lived for over 2000 years. How can you justify this?

Apparently, SLC approves of torture, aggressive warfare, mass murder, indiscriminate murder of children and other innocents, and genocide. Well, to each his own.

SLC, I'm curious, since, aside from your obsession with killing Arabs you seem almost reasonable sometimes. Do you REALLY want to defend the proposition that Bush and Cheney aren't mass murdering monsters? And, assuming that you sensibly decline to make such an absurd argument, doesn't the same logic which allows you to condemn all Arabs for the practices of a few, apply with even more force to the citizens of the United States, who re-elected these monsters even after it became apparent that they were the biggest war criminals of the 21st century?

And, actually, unlike me, SLC has come out in favor of genocide. But even there I give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume that he wasn't serious. At least I like to think so.

I do also think that your failure to address the rest of my post is more than a little revealing.

"And there are in excess of 1 million Arabs living in Israel who are citizens of that country."

Almost true; just add second before citizens. That's how apartheid works.

loopless: So why don't you support the right of return of the Palestinian people to the land on which they lived before 1948? You should. Especially given the right of return for Jew to the same land on which they hadn't lived for over 2000 years. How can you justify this?

Circumstances.

Or will we be returning the island of Manhattan to the Native Americans to whom it belonged 400 years ago?

The Palestinians evacuated their lands in a wave of lies and wars they instigated. They then refused compensation on several occasions, and refused negotiations on several occasions. Large swaths of the Arab world would rather have a reason to incite their extremists than resolve the problem, which COULD have been peacefully resolves, again, on several occasions.

It's like Republicans and abortion -- they don't want to actually win on this issue or the funding dries up.

"The Palestinians evacuated their lands in a wave of lies and wars they instigated. They then refused compensation on several occasions, and refused negotiations on several occasions. Large swaths of the Arab world would rather have a reason to incite their extremists than resolve the problem, which COULD have been peacefully resolves, again, on several occasions."

That's a myth. What's your next excuse?

Re Hameed

Mr. Hameed better get cracking on his bomb shelter as he is going to need it.

When you take into account the fog of war and the intervening 60 years of propaganda, acrimony and lies from both sides, it's impossible to know exactly what happened during that war. What we do know is that the war produced refugees and that immediately after the war Israel declared that those refugees would never return, in violation of UN resolutions.

The formation of Israel was accomplished by a brutal land grab and population transfer. This is Israel's original sin and will always be a taint on their national character.

+1 for Kirchick POS. Utterly worthless writer, trades in bald assertions.

We own lots and lots of S300 (the most advanced multi target air defense systems in the world), Shahab III and unconventional means of taking care of the business. Wink wink!

Not to mention that my country is able to increase the oil price to $500 per barrel in less than 2 hours. Guess your jewish ass could survive the winter with astronomical energy costs?

Having said, keep your moronic statements coming sweetpie. I love flirting with old jewboys.

"The formation of Israel was accomplished by a brutal land grab and population transfer."

Couldn't agree more. The formation of Israel was the biggest error in modern human civilization.

Or will we be returning the island of Manhattan to the Native Americans to whom it belonged 400 years ago?

Do you realize how retarded this sounds?

Zionism is based on some notion of right of return owing to dispossession of land from thousands of years ago - ie. much longer in time ago than either the natives who sold Manhattan, or the Palestinians.

And I guess belief in zionism must breed to stupidity because you are making the same idiotic mistake as SLC: unlike the Palestinians, the descendants of the natives who owned Manhattan still have the right to live here

Oh crap. There goes what might have been a long, happy Bloggingheads partnership.

SLC's taking the Obama birth certificate frothiness over at Pam Atlas's place seriously, and he has the chutzpah to call me retarded. Res ipsa loquitur.

(Actually, I admire the chutzpah.)

Kinda sad how these boards turn into Likud v Hamas free for alls, with bigots of various stripes opening their spleens for all to see.

Kinda sad how these boards turn into Likud v Hamas free for alls, with bigots of various stripes opening their spleens for all to see.

Yeah, but so what.

Paradoxically, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is both the least important and most important thing on the planet. If this was a fight over a different stretch of desert it would be without a doubt one of the most non-sensical pieces of human history and one that it would take a specialist to even be aware of.

Because it's not, because it's a fight that spawned centuries of war between the Abrahamic religions, it's metastatstized into what's been termed the "War on Terror" it's really, really, important.

It's way too important to care if the subject draws nazi's out of the woodwork. It's too big a subject to care if some stupid liberals absorb tropes from them. It's too important to care if it drags old, racist Jews out either. They seem to only be capable of infecting the liberal punditry and lunkheaded conservatives with their brand of bullshit but that's beside the point.

It's way to important to just descend into golden-means Broderism and say "A pox on both their houses". The whole thing is insanity and for the last remaining superpower to make defending the zionist project at any price is something that future historians will marvel at.

This is a fact: This nation will fall if one nuke goes off here. Whatever survives that won't be America. The world may not even survive. The technology is just going to get simpler and what we have done in Iraq, no matter what we do going forward has cast the die. Nuclear weapons will proliferate and the odds of one of them finding their way here are 100% and that's the inevitable price of our policy in the Levant.

I'm sure some zealots here think it's a fair bargain, but if you don't, sitting around and being offended by the riff-raff who glom onto this subject and scare people off shouldn't be an option.

Re Hameed

The trouble with raghead Mr. Hameed is that he breathes out but he doesn't breathe in.

Re Ed Marshall

The fact is that the Israel/Palestinian issue continues to fester because of the demand for Middle East oil. If there was not such a demand, the Israel/Palestinian problem would have been solved a long time ago.

Re Larry M/McKingford

It should be pointed out that neither of these fellows has bothered to respond to the issue of the Jews who were expelled from Iraq and elsewhere in the Arab world. All of them had been living there far longer then most of the Palestinians had been living in Palestine. It is a fact that most of the Palestinians in Palestine were late comers who were descended from Arabs who migrated there in the latter part of the 19th Century in response to economic development spurred on by the competition between Great Britain and Germany.

SLC,

My reason for not answering said argument is pretty simple - I 'm not arguing in favor for the right of return; I'm arguing that the substance of that argument is maybe something that tactically isn't the best ground for you to be fighting on. That is, your arguement isn't relevant to the point that I was making. Moreover, if I wanted to get snarky, I would say that there really isn't an argument to respond to - you haven't even articulated why injustices to one group of Jews have any relevance to the claims of Palestinian refugees.

But since you brought it up - ultimately, I don't think that that fact really has any relevance to the issue, and, if you unpack it a bit, is actually a rather repugnant response. Here's why.

You can, I think, break the argument over the right of the Palestinian refugees to return into two parts. One, is denying the right of return an injustice? Two, if so, is said injustice one that can and should be remedied?

In my view, most of the arguments against he right of return - and all of the convincing ones (convincing enough for me - I would ultimately answer the second question "no") - fall into the second category. The arguments on the first point all seem to me exceedingly weak - either historically inaccurate, or noxiously based upon dehumanizing the Palestinians as a group.

Now, where does the argument regarding Jews expelled from the Arab world fall in those terms? Obviously, it isn't an argument regarding the justice of the cause of the Palestinian refugees. But is it an argument as to why an injustice towards the Palestinian refugees should be denied? Certainly not a compelling one. The fact that one discrete group suffered an unremedied injustice is not a reason why a second discrete group should be denied justice.

No, the only even semi-legitimate way that the argument can be deployed is as a club to beat on advocates of the right of return - by branding them hypocrites. Now, I think there are responses even there (slightly more on that below). But, more to the point, calling someone a hypocrite doesn't make their argument WRONG - at best, it is an attack on their motives, not their argument.

All that being said, while I think it's impossible to deny that Jews expelled from Arab nations have a claim every bit as just as the claims of Palestinian refugees, when we get to a discussion of remedies the contrast between the two situations is so great that it becomes an almost embarrassing argument for you to make. The Jews expelled from Arab nations aren't living in refugee camps, and, I would wager, in 99.999% of the cases, wouldn't return if they could. Now, you can argue until the cows come home that this, on some level, reflects badly on the Arab nations who have refused to take in the refugees - I think somewhat unfairly, for reasons which are beyond the scope of this already too long post - but, again, that has nothing to do with the justice of the cause of the refugees. Unless, of course, you want to blame them for the ills of the (non-democratic) governments surrounding Israel. Which would be a rather repugnant example of blaming the victim.

If there was not such a demand, the Israel/Palestinian problem would have been solved a long time ago.

I don't buy it. Many people I have a great deal of respect for hew to this theory. Chomsky jumps to mind. Ilan Pappe is another. Maybe there is something to it I'm not understanding, but the idea of Israel as beat cop for soft American imperialism doesn't make a bit of sense to me. What's the beat cop doing? The beat cop not only doesn't seem to be helping matters it seems to be causing problems where they didn't exist before.

How many outrages do I have to acknowledge before we can get back to the issue at hand? As a preemptive measure, I condemn the European conquest of the Americas, the Holocaust, the Holodomor, the Armenian genocide and the Japanese internment. I suppose it doesn't matter though, because SLC sets up a false equivalence: unlike him, I think these things are bad, *and* believe in the right of return.

So yes, allow me to also condemn the expulsion of Jews from Iraq. Having said that, by definition, the expelled Jews and expelled Palestinians had been living in their respective places equally long - ie. their natural lives.

Now, are there any more outrages that must be raised before we can agree on the right of return?

Re Ed Marshall

The trouble with Mr. Marshalls' analysis is that there would be no need of a "beat cop" for the West in the Middle East if there were no demand for Middle East oil. The reason that the US and Western Europe have an interest in the area is because of their dependence on Middle East oil. Remove that dependence and nobody would give a shit about the area which would force the inhabitants to arrive at a solution without outside interference. As Irish diplomat and former UN official Conor Cruise O'Brian put it when asked what the UN could do to solve the problems therein, he responded that the best approach was to let them fight it out. When they got tired of fighting, then a solution would be practicable.

Re McKingford

My response to Mr. McKingford is very simple. No Israeli government will agree to allow Palestinians in refugee camps to resettle in Israel. Period, end of story. If that is unacceptable to Mr. McKingford, tough noogies.

Well, we knew that was your position all along, so why did we have to go through the charade of having me first decry all manner of historic outrages?

The number of people who try to drown their manhood issues in hysterical fantasies of themselves as defenders of Israel is truly depressing.


Posted by penalcolony


You're on to something there, penalcolony. In what other arena can they act like this, and not take any responsibility for their words or actions? Not even the responsibility of having to live up to their own words.

I thought TNR would improve with Foer's takeover. It has not, and the reason seems to be that Peretz remains at the helm, with his mini-me Kirchick beside him. Plus, they have given the abolsutely insufferable Leon Wieseltier and even bigger soap box now.

Shorter SLC: I've run out of arguments so I'll just cover my ears and yell "no! no! no! no! no!"

The real reason for Israel's refusal of a right to return is that it would endanger their apartheid system.

"Well, we knew that was your position all along, so why did we have to go through the charade of having me first decry all manner of historic outrages?

Posted by McKingford | July 30, 2008 11:27 AM"

To waste your time and put the burden on you. His reasoning starts backwards - support Likudnik positions - and then develops reasons to support this. The funniest thing is he admits to hating Israelis. He just seems to hate everyone. He is a lonely man.

The trouble with Mr. Marshalls' analysis is that there would be no need of a "beat cop" for the West in the Middle East if there were no demand for Middle East oil.

No, that would be the complete backwards of my observation (not analysis). My observation is that I don't see how Israel is functioning as a "beat cop". I think it's a bunch of bullshit, sorry to Chomsky and Pappe and all my leftist compatriots who want to draw out the dialectic argument and prove that Israel is a function of American imperialism. I don't think that theory makes a bit of sense.

I'll lay out my reasons for why I think America does what it does as a set of poles:

1) Beat cop argument: I score this 0, the last time this almost worked was the Suez War in the 50's. Here you had them acting as Britain and France's agents and the whole thing was an absolute mess and when Eisenhauer shut the whole embarassing thing down with an oil embargo it probably marked the last sane moment of American/Israeli relations.

2) Military-Industrial-Complex creation: I score this 2. It's a nice little chuck of change. A few billion a year gross isn't that great of shakes though for the players involved. If they were really pulling the strings on it, it would more resemble India/Pakistan where there is much more money involved and we arm both sides. There is Egypt, but even adding them in it's not the kind of money that you wrench elbows over in congress and they are a highly theoretical "enemy".

3) Shared Settler ideology: I'll score this 4. Land without a people, people without a land has a resonance in the American national collective conscience. Australia seems to share the same sort of can't-throw-stone's-in-glass-houses behavior. Of course we had the luxury of genociding the continent back during a day when that wasn't something worth getting upset about. The Israeli narrative for existence involves genocide complicating things.

4) Vulgar Jewish Money Theory: I give it a 3. Yeah, the sums aren't even as great as the defense lobby, but that lobby has multiple priorities. There is no counterbalance anywhere, and ex-congress people will tell you that the Israeli lobby makes it a point to hold key committee seats and punish the living god out of dissenters. Courage to buck that status quo will have immediate impact on your pork raising abilities and who is going to risk their district over an obscure, smallish, mediteranian nation?

5) The Dispensationalists: I'll give it 4 because you could take every last issue above and dispose of it and those folks will be out there. The crazy folk that made electing GW Bush possible are other directed and are trying to steer the world into apocolypse. Many of these people are sitting legislators.

It might be useful to institute a standardized practice of linking hacks like Kirchick's to an annotated list of their lies and solecisms-- maybe even an overall accuracy meter. And it's too bad the technology doesn't exist to make the link unbreakable, like a string of tin cans tied to a bad dog's tail.

The same radical right talking points are repeated endlessly by the so-called journalists of hard copy media and its spin-offs.

They have ruined journalism, ruined the once-great profession, by spouting the same endless narratives sent out as propaganda by the radical right.

JF


Comments closed August 12, 2008.

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