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Oil and Democracy

28 Jul 2008 02:35 pm

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I haven't read Kenneth Pollack's A Path Out of the Desert so I won't vouch for Lee Smith's gloss of its argument but I thought that what Smith says is worth commenting on:

He identifies America's chief vital interest in the region without embarrassment: Persian Gulf energy resources. Until the United States develops an adequate substitute for oil, we are stuck in the Middle East protecting the free flow of affordable fossil fuel that not only fills American SUVs but also ensures the stability of global markets. Pollack makes a good case that were it not for our presence in the Gulf, we would not be such a valuable target on the jihadist hit list, and were we to leave tomorrow, the threat to the United States from Arab terror outfits would largely subside.

Since we are not leaving, we need to repair the region with a broad program of economic and political reform, different from the Bush administration's quick-fix obsession with elections that merely lent democratic legitimacy to Islamist groups in the Palestinian Authority, Iraq, Lebanon, and Egypt. Pollack argues that a process of real liberal reform will take decades, if not longer.

I suspect that views of this sort are widespread both in elite Washington and around the country, and it's worth pointing out that this really doesn't make much sense. The basic proposition here is that if our military weren't so intimately involved in the Middle East, that this would run the risk of economic harm via instability in oil supplies. And fair enough, but our current policies have economic costs of their own in terms of both monetary expenditures (about $1 trillion on Iraq thus far, more than that in terms of bases and fixed infrastructure over the past couple of decades) in terms of terrorist attacks, in terms of pricey efforts to secure ourselves against terrorist attack (been on an airplane lately?), as well as in various other familiar airy senses.

That's the short-run tradeoff. In the longer term, we could massively mitigate the harms Pollack is worried about here by investing in making our country less oil dependent so that fluctuations in the price of oil wouldn't be such a big deal. A move of that sort would, of course, be a costly and difficult undertaking. But the alternative "a broad program of economic and political reform" that "will take decades, if not longer" to complete certainly doesn't sound any easier. And certainly there's no effort here to make an explicit cost-benefit calculation and explain why our past ten years' worth of forward-leaning policy in the Gulf have brought us more in economic benefits than they've cost, or that completely remaking the politica and society of the Arab world would be easier or cheaper than building a lot of windmills and trains.

Beyond that, this agenda is completely incoherent. Let's say you're a reform-minded Arab young professional surfing the web somewhere. And you read that Kenneth Pollack, leading American Middle East expert, has put forward a new book on grand strategy. The book argues that the US needs to promote a broad program of reform in the Arab world in order to prevent a violent Arab backlash against efforts to use American military domination to exploit the natural resources of the Arab world. What are you going to think about that? What's that going to make you think the next time you hear the American government talk about reform? Are you going to believe that invading Iraq was a well-intentioned effort to promote reform that perhaps went badly, or are you going to believe that it was an ill-intentioned effort to use American military domination to exploit the natural resources of the Arab world?

Reform is hard. Promoting reform is harder. Promoting reform in the name of cheap oil and military domination is almost certainly impossible.

Meanwhile, Smith seems to have decided to move to an even-more-wrongheaded position. His basic critique of both Pollack and the neocons is, basically, that they aren't racist enough ("As we saw with Hezbollah's orgiastic celebrations for released child-murderer Samir Kuntar, the problem with the Arab world is Arab societies themselves") and need to recognize that since Arabs are kind of subhuman all this democracy talk isn't going to get us anywhere.

Photo by Flickr user smatkins used under a Creative Commons license

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Comments (64)

I love this Lee Smith fellow.

Ummm you really missed saying something obvious on this,something you know. If the object was secure "stability" of oil supplies, the Iraq war the least viable way to do this. Even with sanctions in place Saddam's old regime produced a larger and more stable oil supply than comes from Iraq today. And if the increasing the size and stability of oil supply had been the goal, heck the obvious move would have been not to invade, but to lift the freaking sanctions. I mean that would have increased oil supply compared to Saddam's Iraq, let alone today's Iraq. The same applies to Iran. Sanctions have been fairly successful in degrading Iran's oil infrastructure, even if they have used ingenuity to keep a fair amount flowing. If your object is oil supply stability, lift sanctions against Iran and watch stability increase, and probably supply (modestly) as well.

Of course this values human life at zero. If you value human life, the arguments against invasions and sanctions increase a great deal.

Apparently, Mr. Yglesias thinks that the celebration of the release of the murdering rapist, Mr. Kuntar, in Lebanon should not in any way, shape, form, or regard cause the rest of the world to think poorly of the Arab World. Sorry Mr. Yglesias, that celebration of a scumbag like Kuntar indicates the fact that the Arab world consists of far too many savages and they should be treated as such.

Come on Matt, you know that brown people in foreign, mostly brown people countries don't have the internet. It's not like they're going to read this stuff, hell they probably can't even read between burning flags and cutting off heads. [/sarcasm]

Ummm you really missed saying something obvious on this,something you know. If the object was secure "stability" of oil supplies, the Iraq war the least viable way to do this. Even with sanctions in place Saddam's old regime produced a larger and more stable oil supply than comes from Iraq today. And if the increasing the size and stability of oil supply had been the goal, heck the obvious move would have been not to invade, but to lift the freaking sanctions. I mean that would have increased oil supply compared to Saddam's Iraq, let alone today's Iraq. The same applies to Iran. Sanctions have been fairly successful in degrading Iran's oil infrastructure, even if they have used ingenuity to keep a fair amount flowing. If your object is oil supply stability, lift sanctions against Iran and watch stability increase, and probably supply (modestly) as well.

Of course this values human life at zero. If you value human life, the arguments against invasions and sanctions increase a great deal.

celebration of a scumbag like Kuntar indicates the fact that the Arab world consists of far too many savages and they should be treated as such

Forgive me if I'm wrong, Mr. SLC, but weren't you the one advocating turning Tehran (metro pop. 13,413,348) into "glass"?

or that completely remaking the politica and society of the Arab world would be easier or cheaper than building a lot of windmills and trains.

Building a lot of trains would have only a negligible impact on our demand for oil, and for a variety of political, practical and economic reasons isn't going to happen anyway. Building a lot of windmills would have only a small impact. With respect to changes in transportation, the only meaningful way of significantly reducing our demand for oil is through new engine technologies and alternate fuels in automobiles and airplanes.

Matt, I read Lee Smith's article and I think the point he's making is that the Middle East lacks a political culture that is reconcilable with democracy and political reform. Hence, without democratic/political reform, stability and peace in the Middle East are impossible. So, it's less a matter of him being a racist but rather making a value judgment on the norms and values of a society. That is, I don't think Lee Smith hates Arabs in the same way the KKK hates black people.

The whole "preserving oil supplies" argument is also a total fallacy as it's presented. What its proponents make it seem like is that by ensuring production of oil in Iraq, we get oil from Iraq. Whereas in reality, by ensuring production of oil in Iraq (at which we're doing a lousy job, anyhow), we are ensuring... the profits of particular firms pumping oil out of the ground in Iraq, while the oil in U.S. refineries and gas tanks continues mostly to come from, e.g., Canada, Mexico, Nigeria and Venezuela, our mortal-enemy-that-provides-lots-of-our-liquid fuel. We really wouldn't care about ensuring that future supply - which is going to come out one way or another - if it was Total S.A. reaping the benefits, and our direct involvement (as you've pointed out in the past) is mostly irrelevant to global commodities prices, at least in terms of lowering prices.

Given the choice between changing our behavior or trying to change everyone else's the American public has been pretty consistant in its desire for a continued cheap oil lifestyle, long-term cost be damned.

I admit I am somewhat interested in what, say, the biodiesel-from-algae folks could have done with $1 trillion.

Never forget the Herskowitz stories of Bush, that said that from 1999 Bush wanted a war to help Republican domestic political chances.

The war became about lots of things. Oil. Israel's safety. Neo-con fantasies of American hegemony. Whatever. I think it's safe to say that if it was on a Republican wish list that it became stuffed in the Iraq War piñata.

Matt, I read Lee Smith's article and I think the point he's making is that the Middle East lacks a political culture that is reconcilable with democracy and political reform. Hence, without democratic/political reform, stability and peace in the Middle East are impossible. So, it's less a matter of him being a racist but rather making a value judgment on the norms and values of a society. That is, I don't think Lee Smith hates Arabs in the same way the KKK hates black people.

Sorry Mr. Yglesias, that celebration of a scumbag like Kuntar indicates the fact that the Arab world consists of far too many savages and they should be treated as such.

What does their widespread celebration of a mass murderer like George Bush say about Americans back in the "Mission Accomplished" days of 2003? Stupidity and blind adherence to ideologies make people all over the world into savages. It isn't just Arabs.

He identifies America's chief vital interest in the region without embarrassment: Persian Gulf energy resources. Until the United States develops an adequate substitute for oil, we are stuck in the Middle East protecting the free flow of affordable fossil fuel that not only fills American SUVs but also ensures the stability of global markets

That's funny-- he makes it sound as if this is something we cannot change, like a place's propensity to have an earthquake.

New posts today:
http://www.swanpoliticsblog.blogspot.com

Even with sanctions in place Saddam's old regime produced a larger and more stable oil supply than comes from Iraq today.

Iraq Crude Oil Production
Millions of Barrels/Day

Estimated Pre-War Peak: 2.5
July 2008: 2.54 and rising.

The Iraqi Oil Ministry expects production to increase to 3 million barrels/day in 6 months.

As for the major issue, I don't think we need American involvement to ensure the availability of oil. Whoever is in charge in each country will sell the oil to make money. If outside involvement is needed (as it arguably was in 1991), then Europe's and Japan's greater dependence on oil argues for them footing most of the bill.

Re scythia

1. It's Dr. SLC.

2. I took a leaf from the General Curtis LeMay playbook and said that the answer to Iranian troublemaking is to make a parking lot out of it.

Re Jim W

If George Bush is a mass murderer, then so are Harry Truman, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Winston Churchill, etc. And Mr. Jim W can go fuck himself for forcing me to defend a slimeball shithead like Dubya.

This argument also bespeaks absolutely no faith in the free market, open oil and petroleum products that is currently in place. The only thing Saddam Hussein could with Iraq's oil is sell it into world markets. Even bilateral deals end up there, either through reselling or by reducing demand.

It really only makes sense from a mercantilist, imperial perspective, that the idea wasn't to keep the oil flowing, but to make sure it flowed through American companies.

And what DMT said. US security would have been much more greatly enhanced by a crash program of mass production of solar panels everywhere the sun do shine. That we got massive ethanol subsidies as a fop shows where the real interests lie.

SLC,

Surely you can recognize the difference between those leaders who needlessly start wars and those who are merely defending their own countries or allies.

US security would have been much more greatly enhanced by a crash program of mass production of solar panels everywhere the sun do shine.

Highly implausible, even if you just mean "security of U.S. energy supplies" rather than national security in all senses. Without a broad range of technological advances that would have allowed us to effectively substitute solar-generated electricity for oil, most obviously practical, mass-market, cost-competitive electric cars, even if solar power had become cost-competitive with fossil fuels we'd still need lots of oil and gas.

In my opinion, this is one of your best foreign policy posts in a long time, Matt. Fools like Pollack appear to have learned learned absolutely nothing, zero, from the past seven years.

we need to repair the region with a broad program of economic and political reform

The megalomaniacal sense of world ownership built into "we need to" is breathtaking. It's like they are talking about revitalizing the rust belt, or reforming the crooked government of a US city. Maybe the people in the Middle East region don't want the kinds of "reforms" and "repairs" that would please Pollack, or be most amenable to US interests. I've noticed, for example, that almost everyone in that region adheres to a major world religion that is practiced and understood by only a tiny minority of Americans, and for which most Americans have very little affection, affinity or intuitive sympathy - although a few CIA analysts do seem to have mastered enough of the Islam for Dummies version to convince themselves that they have it all figured out.

The people of the Middle East also have a number of deeply entrenched social customs, and traditions of political thought and organization, that do nothing to suggest that Americans are at all well-positioned to carry out these "reforms" and "repairs" in an intelligent and socially sensitive way, even if the people of the region were amenable to them. And we have neither the power nor the moral wisdom to make the changes happen in the absence of broad, deep and committed support of the vast majority of the people in the region for our "fix the Muslims" agenda.

What always comes through here is the shameless condescension and utter contempt the members of the "liberal" security class have for Arabs and other Muslims in the region. They appear to regard them as ignorant and easily cowed beasts, with no intelligence, cultural wisdom or coherent wills of their own, saddled with barbarous traditions are in every way unworthy of respect. Their knee-jerk response to an encounter with cultural otherness is "Here is yet another group of sad barbarians who are in need of a compassionate liberal rectification of their culture."

What does it take for people like Pollack to get the message that the most sensible policy to follow toward the Middle East is the one they are most loathe to try: Leave them alone!

Maybe Mr. Kuntar might be interested in joining J Street. He sounds like their kind of guy.

Re Jim W

So Mr. Jim W considers the attacks specifically targeting civilians by allied aircraft during the 2n World War to be in defense of the US and its' allies.

Also, our allegiances in the area are more or less w/ the existing governments. Maybe that gives us some leverage to promote positive change in those governments (this seems to be part of Pollack's argument), but I'd guess in a lot of cases it really means we're just adding mass to the power structures which resist reform.

What matters to the foreign policy establishment is that you come up with a successful propaganda program so that whatever intervention you feel like doing, you convince big mouthed elites that it's all part of some desperately well-intentioned, long-sighted reform program which everyone wants.

After that, nothing matters, because no matter what is done, what policies are carried out, no one will ever either question that the well-intentioned goals were in fact the goals of the policy nor will anyone involved in any amount of screw-ups ever be held even the slightest bit accountable.

Well.

Matt, you oppose nuclear power. You oppose using more coal (abundant here in the US). Wind and Solar are non-answers, since they are intermittant, and electricity is an "always on" thing - never mind the fact that your political allies oppose putting windmills up anywhere they might have to see them, and that they will also oppose solar arrays as soon as it becomes clear that an environmentalist somewhere opposes them on habitat grounds.

You say you want to end our dependence on oil, and yet you oppose everything that might head in that direction. I'm kind of amazed that your level of cognitive dissonance hasn't caused migraines by now.

Iraqi oil production levels quoted above are from the embargo era.

Kervick:

"What does it take for people like Pollack to get the message that the most sensible policy to follow toward the Middle East is the one they are most loathe to try: Leave them alone!"

Leave Afghanistan alone, too? Failed states cause us problems. You can't seal off the outside world. Isolationism doesn't work.

The Middle East is screwed up because of the Cold War and the Israeli-Palestian conflict.

We have to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. As Pollack says in his book, according to polls they do want democracy and self-determination, understandably. But the undemocratic regimes (our allies) don't. Israel probably doesn't either. The general populations are tougher on Israel than the paid-off regimes are.

Pollack is right. Hopefully, Obama can partner with Europe and China to help the situation get better peacefully.

Dan Kervick probably felt we should have left Bosnia alone. Mass murderer Karadzic would be living high on the hog now if we had. But that's okay cause he's not a rich first worlder.

What's especially astonishing is that Pollack acknowledges his strategy won't be effective for decades. Not only does that make it hard, but it also makes it useless. We won't be dependent on oil in 30 years, because there won't be much of it left. Either significant portions of the world economy will have collapsed, or we'll have moved on to different sources of energy. The sheiks will still be making a killing selling oil to airlines, but the market clearing price for energy will be set by other (hopefully more stable) sources.

So MY is quite right to point out that we'd be better off investing those occupation dollars in expediting the development of these alternative energy sources.

I really can't figure out if this argument is meant seriously or not. Risk to oil supplies? Why would Saddam or Iran not sell oil?

Saddam and Iran would or do add resources to the Muslim fight against Zionism, and have to be contained for that reason but they never threatened to cut off, decrease or destabilize oil supplies.

Somehow it is ok to say "stable oil supplies" knowing that it is clearly nonsense, but it is not ok to say "make sure Israel never has a non-Jewish majority".

The dispute in between the West and the Middle East is over Zionism. Period.

No Zionism, there would be no reason for the US to invade Iraq, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, claiming to bring them democracy.

No Zionism, the US does not need either long term leverage over the Iraqi government or military bases there. On the other hand, no Zionism and the Iraqis, like the Saudis, would not have domestic opposition anything close to the degree that currently exists to a relationship with the US.

No Zionism, Iran having a nuclear enrichment capability, as Brazil does, would not be a threat to anybody - and of course the US would invest in the oil industry of the country in the region that gives to most political power to minority groups under its control bar none.

The US is not stuck in the Middle East "protecting oil". The US is stuck in the Middle Esat ensuring that oil revenues are not directed against Zionism.

But I guess everyone already knows that and would rather point to anything else, no matter how nonsensical.

OK, I'll admit that my statistics were out of date. Until not very long ago Iraq production of oil had not caught with Saddam's production under sanctions. But does anyone doubt that production without sanctions would have been higher than production with sanctions? The basic point remains apparent: lifting sanctions would have got a lot more oil of out Iraq than invading. Not that getting oil out of places should be the primary aim of U.S. policy - just that it obviously is not.

mpowell,

there won't be much of it left. Either significant portions of the world economy will have collapsed, or we'll have moved on to different sources of energy.

Keep that crystal ball nice and polished.

Nobody knows how much oil we'll be using in 30 years, because nobody knows how much oil there is in the world, nobody knows how much we will have substituted other energy sources for oil, nobody knows how much more efficiently we will be able to use oil to generate wealth, and nobody knows how much wealthier we will be. It's all a huge unknown.

The basic point remains apparent: lifting sanctions would have got a lot more oil of out Iraq than invading.

You obviously don't know that. Lifting the sanctions would have allowed Saddam to re-arm and resume his policies of aggression, invasion and attacks on his middle-eastern neighbors.

"You obviously don't know that. Lifting the sanctions would have allowed Saddam to re-arm and resume his policies of aggression, invasion and attacks on his middle-eastern neighbors."

See what you don't understand, is they see Saddam as a peaceble guy - all evidence to the contrary. Iraq was a land of rainbows and kids flying kites (see Michael Moore).

Their proof is that Dick Cheney didn't like Saddam and said mean things about him. Therefore he must be good and peacable. QED.

(at this point they'll admit he was bad, but point to Rumsfeld's handshake.)

In early 2001, Cheney was lobbying Bush to lift the embargo.

You obviously don't know that. Lifting the sanctions would have allowed Saddam to re-arm and resume his policies of aggression, invasion and attacks on his middle-eastern neighbors.

Posted by Mixner

Yeah. You tell that guy off for saying those things without evidence and having predicted a counterfactual. That'll show such people. After all, we OCD types have to stick together.

I recall that Harry Browne (Livertarian candidate for President in 2000) once said that he was against abortion, which is why he didn't want the government involved, becasue if it got involved, "within ten years men would be having abortions."

I think my beliefs regarding U.S. intervention in the Middle East to insure oil price stability seem to parallel Mr. Browne's beliefs about abortion.

Matt,

Both you and Pollack have run out of ideas on how to effectively engage Arab reformists. These folks are real and work against incredible odds.

This is not coming out of a vacuum, Americans and westerners in general have been conditioned to look at the region from a geopolitical standpoint. That per se is very telling given that you're someone who is skeptical of the so-called American empire.

So, when they speak of reform they expect all the problems to be solved by a Palestinian-Israeli peace treaty or a withdrawal from Iraq. Both have no demonstrable impact on the lives of ordinary Arabs from the Atlantic to the Gulf.

I believe Americans in general will gain credibility in the Arab world if they actually started to seriously push their own government- or sidestep it altogether - and their civil society pto support the nascent indigenous civil rights movement in the region. As long as Americans, left and right, can rationalize or justify tolerating Saudi, Egyptian and other dictatorships in the region all their talk of reform will fall on skeptical ears in the region.

American leftists are no better than their right wing counterparts: they both sorely lack any credibility on the Middle East and North Africa. Lots of sound bites an no substance. No need to even talk about think tanks, their idea of Arab reform is to bring Amr Khaled the televangelists as Brookings did recently. Others are busy embracing the Muslim Brotherhood (Larry Diamond for example.)

You should all listen to me because as my Slate bio-blurb says,

Lee Smith is writing a book on Arab culture

and at the rate I'm going it's only going to take another 137 years to finish.

And, I'm really qualified to pontificate on "Arab culture" because ???????????

(NOTE TO SELF: LEE, DON'T FORGET TO FIND SOMETHING TO FILL IN FOR THAT PART BEFORE YOU HIT "POST" -- REMEMBER HOW YOU EMBARASSED YOURSELF LAST TIME !!)

So there! I'm not some kind of ill-informed neo-con dilettante at all!

You obviously don't know that. Lifting the sanctions would have allowed Saddam to re-arm and resume his policies of aggression, invasion and attacks on his middle-eastern neighbors.

Yes, Saddam would have re-armed, but a Saddam on a spending spree in the world's military hardware bazaars is a Saddam that would have wanted to maximize his oil revenue. And an attack on any of his neighbors, moreover, would surely have been extremely implausible, given the painful lesson Saddam was forced to learn in 1990-91 with respect to the disparity between Iraqi and Western military power (to say nothing of the disaster of his war with Iran).

Yes, Saddam would have re-armed, but a Saddam on a spending spree in the world's military hardware bazaars is a Saddam that would have wanted to maximize his oil revenue.

And your point is....? Yes, he would have pumped a lot of oil so he could buy a lot of weapons.

And an attack on any of his neighbors, moreover, would surely have been extremely implausible, given the painful lesson Saddam was forced to learn in 1990-91 with respect to the disparity between Iraqi and Western military power (to say nothing of the disaster of his war with Iran).

Er, "the disaster of his war with Iran" did not dissuade Saddam from invading Kuwait. And the idea that Saddam was not aware of the disparity in power between the Iraqi and Western militaries when he invaded Kuwait isn't remotely credible. Even after we had booted him out of Kuwait and imposed the sanctions, Saddam continued to display an astonishing level of aggressive, confrontational and risk-averse behavior throughout the 1990s. So the idea that he had somehow "learned his lesson" and that a rearmed Saddam would not have been a serious and continuing threat to peace and stability in the region is not terribly credible.

The basic point remains apparent: lifting sanctions would have got a lot more oil of out Iraq than invading.


You obviously don't know that. Lifting the sanctions would have allowed Saddam to re-arm and resume his policies of aggression, invasion and attacks on his middle-eastern neighbors.

Posted by Mixner | July 28, 2008 5:18 PM


Yes, Saddam would have re-armed, but a Saddam on a spending spree in the world's military hardware bazaars is a Saddam that would have wanted to maximize his oil revenue.


And your point is....?

Posted by Mixner | July 28, 2008 9:15 PM

I still have a more basic question. Matt wants to live the urban lifestyle. Said lifestyle relies on having high levels of power generation. Simultaneously, Matt opposes nuclear power, further use of fossil fuels, and seems to think that unreliable sources like wind and solar will somehow allow him to live the way he's become accustomed to.

Perhaps he could explain how that's all going to work out.

Can I play "Let's juxtapose randomly-selected quotes as if it actually means something" too, scythia?

Once upon a time: we worried that the Soviet Union would move south, take the Persian Gulf and effectively win the Cold War by cutting off the West's oil supply. A good case can be made for the need 1945-89 to guard against that possibility.

The Cold War being over, that need is gone. Leave the Gulf and let the global oil market sort itself out. Oil will still flow. What else can the oil states do with it besides drill for it and sell it?

The United States instead insists on paying a huge price to protect a resource that is no longer threatened.

for James Robertson:

Let me suggest that when the sun becomes an unreliable source of energy, we'll have much bigger things to worry about than our urban lifestyles.

Every day, enough solar energy reaches the earth's surface to supply the planet's energy needs for a year. We need the technology to harness this energy and supply it to the grid and it's coming. That notion that darkness or clouds makes solar energy unreliable is technologically out of date as any casual reader on the subject of alternative energy should know.

The same is true for wind, which already supplies a significant and consistent source of energy where it used in part because modern wind turbines don't need high wind velocities to drive them.

davido - you might ponder two things:

-- at night, solar arrays generate no power
-- even during the day, their efficiency sucks

Have you considered just how huge an array would have to be to generate useful levels of power? Or what will generate the power at night, when it's not useful? Or, what kind of "you're destroying habitat!" lawsuits the environmental lawsuits will toss at any large scale development of solar arrays?

Good luck with that.

Goodness. Ken Pollack is such a thick imbecile.

I can't believe there are people who still think that America's presence is necessary and good for the sake of the oil. How dumb do you have to be to believe that.

Oil is just a commodity you buy on the market. Anyone who has oil sells it on the market. The current oil market is so diversified that no one country could plausibly harm another country's oil supply; and even many countries couldn't do that. This is certainly not a worry for someone the size of America, where everyone wants to fucking sell you stuff as that is the surest path to prosperity. If America just up and left the Middle East tomorrow and had absolutely nothing at all to do with it, then whatever happens, and whoever takes over, will want to do one thing: sell oil on the world market for the highest bidder. Which is really what any American wants. It's not like America is going to the Gulf stealing the oil there and handing it out to Americans for free. They go there to set up oil companies to SELL THE OIL ON THE FREE MARKET! Which would happen anyway if you had the illegitimate lovechild of a Saddam, Bin Ladin and Khomeini threesome in charge of all the world's oil, since what use is it to have all that oil under the sand when you can sell it freely and make a ton of money!?

And how exactly has American intervention in order to "secure" oil worked out for the oil market? $140 a barrel is a real sign of the stability and the success of this initiative. No matter what happens without America out there, there is no way that oil could be destabilized as much as it is with America in there! It is America that is destabilizing the region and fucking the oil market; American foreign policy is the problem, not the solution.

Now, any sane human would look at this and say: "look, this whole "securing" the oil business is bullshit; it's so blatantly an example of oil companies using the US military in order to avoid having to make decent concessions on oil. This has only lead to the murder of untold millions around the world, massive destruction of whole countries, massive costs for America, and turned America into the world's biggest purveyor of evil and the most unpopular thing since Hitler, and to top it all off, it's gotten us $140 oil. We should stop this whole "securing" oil business, as it's obviously done absolutely nothing good to anyone but a few oil executives."

But no. Thankfully, we don't have sane people in charge of writing op-eds in the NYT every day and running the country's most illustrious think-tanks. We have morons like Pollack with crap for brains, who when confronted with all of this, take the line that "we should go back there, spend decades working at "reforming" those societies so that they can all function as happy democracies while we have our soldiers there murder their kids, and our corporate buddies pillage their oil, and our weapons in the hands of their leaders--whom we handpicked to be the only people demented enough to agree to our moronic schemes. Surely, spending decades on this effort will "secure" our oil and make the world a happy place."

What this genius doesn't get is that the only reason there is any threat to the oil is because of previous idiots thinking like him. What he is proposing is THE PROBLEM, not the solution.

I really don't think this he is evil enough to realize how perverse his ideas are; he must be that thick.

James,

Do a little research into cutting edge solar technologies, get up to speed, then we'll talk. While you're at it, do the same for wind.

Right now it sounds like the last time you really thought about this was about 1974.

davdo - I've looked into both. The intermittant nature of both hasn't changed since 1974, and battery technology hasn't improved as much as anyone would like (ask anyone with a laptop computer).

Wind and Solar are partial answers at best, because they are not reliable, 24x7 things. Period.

The other thing you fail to address is how the environmental left will respond to any large building program. Let's take Picken's plan to build up from Texas to the Canadian border. Do you honestly believe that any such project wouldn't end up tied in the courts for decades? Examine the fate of the ICC here in Maryland and get back to me.

Nuclear power, on the other hand, requires a much smaller footprint, which means that the regulatory fights over it will far, far easier to win.

Re James Robertson

Attached is a link to a thread on Steven Novellas' blog in which he shows that the notion that much of the earths' surface would have to be covered with solar collectors to supply significant amounts of electricity is seriously in error. Dr. Novellas' calculation indicates that if all the electricity in the world were generated by solar power, the percent area of the world that would have to be covered equals .12%, assuming 10% efficiency in conversion. Nothing is more devastating to an opinion then a number.

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=334

That looks tiny until you consider:

-- the places where those collectors can be placed
-- how much opposition the environmentalists will throw up based on habitat destruction (etc).

Never mind that he conflates the amount of solar energy that strikes the earth with the amount that could become actual electricity. Never mind that he ignores the obvious transmission problems. For instance:

Consider placing solar arrays in the Sahara desert. Seems reasonable, except that the transmission distances to Europe are large (much of the power would be lost), the political stability of the source region is questionable (who's going to pay to place expensive equipment in an unsafe area?).

Now consider a nuke plant, which can be placed fairly close to where it's needed, and has a plentiful fuel supply.

Solar is a niche technology. Wind is a niche technology.

Of course, the European Union actually is considering solar production in the Sahara exported to Europe, including high capacity, lower loss DC lines.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/energy/eu-eyes-supergrid-harness-saharan-sun/article-174508

Apparently they're at least bureaucratically and scientifically interested in such a fanciful niche solution.

Sure, and Jerry Nadler wants to revive canals. The fact that a set of bureaucrats think it's a good idea doesn't make it practical. I read the linked article, and paid attention to the many problems, including power loss over distance, and the economic unviability of that solution.

The Sahara desert _itself_ seems fairly stable given that there is almost no one living there. Some of the Sahelian countries surrounding the Sahara are pretty stable these days, like Mali and Burkina. Poor, but stable.

I'm (fairly reluctantly) a supporter of nuclear power myself since it seems to be the best of a bad set of options.

Re: I believe Americans in general will gain credibility in the Arab world if they actually started to seriously push their own government- or sidestep it altogether - and their civil society pto support the nascent indigenous civil rights movement in the region.

The 'nascent indigenous civil rights movement' is the creation of a few Westernized elite intellectuals with little popular support and few roots in the political and economic realities of the area. The alternative to men like Mubarak and Assad is the Muslim Brotherhood and their ideological allies, take it or leave it. One would think we would have learned that lesson in Iraq, but apparently not.

That looks tiny until you consider:

-- the places where those collectors can be placed
-- how much opposition the environmentalists will throw up based on habitat destruction (etc).

Shorter James Robertson: I'm wrong, but those durned hippies are wronger!

Solar is a niche technology. Wind is a niche technology.

And oil and coal are finite non-renewable resources that are radically altering our climate. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

And also, by the way, those interested in alternative energy should really be talking a lot more about geothermal as a compliment to wind and solar.

Re James Robertson

1. Apparently, Mr. Robertson has a reading comprehension problem. The calculations from Dr. Novellas' web site assumed 100% reliance on solar for all the electricity generation in the world, in addition to 10% efficiency in conversion. If, instead, one assumed 25% reliance and 15% efficiency, the amount of land area goes down by factor of 8. I assume that Mr. Robertson would not consider 25% a niche contribution.

2. As to losses in transmission, these are already occurring. For instance, there is a coal burning generation plant at 4 corners that generates electricity for Southern California, several hundred miles away. Similarly, the San Onfre nuclear power plant south of San Clemente supplies electricity over most of Southern California, covering several hundred miles of transmission lines.

There's a difference between lines that run a few hundred miles across politically secure boundaries, and ones that run many hundreds (or over a thousand), across politically unstable regions and then across the Mediterranean Sea.

re: James Robertson

In the early seventies I was talking with two friends, both educated as scientists about nuclear power. I was expressing a non-scientist's concern about nuclear waste. While they disagreed over the desirability of nuclear power (one regarding it as the answer, the other thinking it was one generation solution to the long term problem that would arise when oil became too scarce to burn as fuel), they both agreed the waste was not a problem. After all they said, the waste from the Manhattan Project and our nuclear weapons programs had to be stored permanently somewhere and wherever we stored that, we'd store the rest.

We are of course still waiting, thirty-five years later for a solution to the storage problem. We're waiting because whatever we believe about the environmental fights we may have over Wind and Solar, they are NOTHING compared to the decades long fight we've already had over nuclear waste storage, which is why Yucca Mountain is not yet and may never be the answer.

So waste still sits at plant sites, having been there for decades already and for us to be safe, needs to be guarded forever.

As for your 1974 mindset with regard to solar, two observations; the technologies are in flux (one answer may lie in mirrors heating fluids to make steam with during the day and using it to store energy as heat to generate power at night) so any statement we make about alternative technologies today is likely to be out of date
before too long. I'm imagining that had you been around in 1903 and seen early automobiles and the Wright Flyer you would have called cars a niche technology that would never replace trains (we have no infrastructure to refuel the things and how can they travel in bad weather?) and laughed at claims that airplanes would someday travel between continents nonstop carrying hundreds of passengers at five-hundred miles per hour.

The other assumption you make is that all of our power needs to come from the grid. I work at a small college that generates half its power from a gas fired power plant and the other half from a single wind turbine. We're on the grid but as a power producer not as a consumer. A friend lives in a village in Germany that generates almost all of its electricity from three wind turbines.

One of the obvious paths for us to take is distributed power that allows us to generate power where we live and work and not require full time power from a distant source.

My guess and hope is that in the next 30-40 years (while we may still fight over where to put the nuclear waste we already have) we'll come to the place where private, point source power generation from solar and/or wind generates the energy it takes to light, heat and cool our buildings. Having one's own private source of energy may become as common as, well, having a car.

Wind and Solar don't scale when you consider how large the physical installations have to be. nuclear waste is a political problem, not a technical one: the Europeans have figured it out, and based on green politics there, I think we could solve it here as well. Breeder reactors solve most of that problem.

Your wind example is telling, if you consider the gas turbine. If your concern is that fossil fuel will become too expensive/rare, what will you use for backup when that is prohibitively expensive? Keeping in mind that letting power fail when the wind dies down is not an answer. Also bearing in mind that "the wind will be blowing somewhere" skates across the whole transmission problem.

"Wind and Solar don't scale when you consider how large the physical installations have to be."

Wind and Solar don't scale? There are already rooftop solar installations on the market that can and do power individual homes. How could you not know this? There are small scale rooftop wind turbines in development here and abroad that are specifically designed to work at the building level.

"Nuclear waste is a political problem, not a technical one: the Europeans have figured it out, and based on green politics there, I think we could solve it here as well"

Why will the nuclear waste storage problem be solvable (given that is hasn't been solved yet in nearly four decades of trying) while, according to your thesis, the solar and wind environmental problems won't be? Why one and not the other? They're both political problems, one involving aesthetics and the other involving the fear of nuclear contamination. I'd bet we'll solve the former before the later.

"Your wind example is telling, if you consider the gas turbine. If your concern is that fossil fuel will become too expensive/rare, what will you use for backup when that is prohibitively expensive? Keeping in mind that letting power fail when the wind dies down is not an answer. Also bearing in mind that "the wind will be blowing somewhere" skates across the whole transmission problem.'

We don't need to completely replace fossil fuels, though that may be both desirable and possible. Oil has a lot of uses as a feed material for everything from plastics to pharmaceuticals. The point my friend made back in the seventies, before climate change issues and before we engaged in two wars in the Middle East, was that someday oil's other uses and it's increasing scarcity would price it out of the market as motor fuel. We may be heading towards that place now. But gas used as a backup to wind generation or in solar/gas hybrid combinations still reduces fossil fuel use by the amount of energy produced by wind and solar. This is particularly true in Concentrating Solar Power applications that use liquids to store energy from the sun to use in the first hours of darkness.

Hybrid plants have the potential to extend supplies of natural gas and coal more or less indefinitely (while greatly reducing CO2 emissions) by substantially reducing the need for them. Both solar and wind work best during the day at peak times for electricity use. When combined with point source solutions to generating power for homes, we should be able to generate most of the energy we use from non-fossil and non-nuclear sources.

The larger point however is this. You believe that solar and wind are and will be niche technologies. Denmark, to cite only one European example, will soon get 25% of it's energy from wind. And they plan to continue to increase that amount. They are not alone. And wind resources in the US are are far more plentiful than those in Europe. So just what percentage counts as niche?

And finally;

"Nuclear power, on the other hand, requires a much smaller footprint, which means that the regulatory fights over it will far, far easier to win."

What???

I'm genuinely curious about your age. Because if you've been around awhile you'll know that the regulatory fights over nuclear power are one of two primary reasons (construction cost is the other) that there hasn't been a new nuke plant opened in the US in a very long time.

I mean I can't really understand how anyone who knows how vicious those fights were could possibly say that they will be "far, far easier to win" when you consider how much those fights are driven by fear (justified or not) compared to what may drive fights over wind and solar. This is especially true when you consider that those fights took place in the shadow of Three Mile Island and Chernobyl. Those fights had nothing to do with the "footprint" of nuclear plants and everything to do with the fear of accidents leading to radiation release.

Think about those fears (again, however unreasonable) and add them to the post 9/11 fears of nuclear power plants as terror targets and tell me again why it is you think regulatory battles over nukes will be easier than those over solar and wind. You may think they SHOULD be easier but come on!

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Re James Robertson

Mr. Robertson is really an amusing fellow. He makes the claim that solar energy is impractical for, among other reasons, the problem with losses in transmission lines. I point out that this problem already exists because of the isolation of coal burning plants and nuclear power plants. He then comes back and ignores the fact that his claim has been discredited by raising the issue of the location of solar collectors in unstable areas such as Northern Africa.

Well how about locating solar collectors in the vast deserts of Southeastern Çalifornia, Arizona, and Nevada? No threat of instability there. Now of course, Mr. Robertson will reply with a statement that extreme environmentalists will sue to block such installations. Apparently Mr. Robertson seems to think that the resistance of these same extreme environmentalists to nuclear power plants and coal burning plants can be easily overcome but that somehow their possible resistance to solar collectors cannot. Talk about cognitive dissonance!


Comments closed August 11, 2008.

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