« Missed Opportunities | Main | Anecdotes »

The Flip-Flop Flap

04 Jul 2008 04:58 pm

Noam Scheiber and Jonathan Chait debate whether or not John McCain's flip-flop attacks against Barack Obama will work. Since Chait seems to think these attacks are both effective and unfair, it might be nice for him to spend some time dealing with the unfair flip-flop charges coming from his colleague James Kirchick.

But beyond that, my thought on this question is that conventional wisdom radically misconstrues the nature of the relevant decision-making process. In my model of the electorate, the majority of voters are voting as blind partisans. Of the rest, most are being driven by the macro factors (shitty economy, sick of Bush) or purely by issue salience (vote Republican when I care about national security, vote Democratic when I care about the economy) or other such things. And yet, few people like to say that kind of thing. And this is where the campaign comes in.

The main impact of campaign attacks, I think, is not to actually change anyone's mind but rather to familiarize everyone with the talking points of the side they agree with. In 2000, voters who valued "experience" turned out to favor Al Gore strongly. In the 2008 campaign, I think it's clear that voters who value "experience" will favor John McCain. That's not, however, because there's some coherent bloc of "experience" voters who shifted loyalties -- it's because "experience" was a Democratic talking point in 2000 and it's a Republican talking point in 2008 so people change which candidate attributes they value. In 2004, you could find a lot of Democrats who thought John Kerry military service proved important things about his fitness for office, whereas in 2008 Republicans are more likely to say that about John McCain.

I think that if Obama becomes unpopular and loses the election it'll be because a larger number of voters decide that having a "tough" foreign policy is the most important thing. But if they reach that conclusion, they'll find themselves suddenly agreeing with all manner of other attacks from John McCain's camp. By contrast, if voters continue to be focused on their desire for a sharp break with Bushism, voters will find pretty much anything Obama throws at McCain persuasive.

Share This

Comments (41)

How do you square that with your comment a few days ago regarding Indiana and Montana polls, ie that actually campaigning in a place matters significantly?

"Another Victory for Foreign Policy Consensus" is an "unfair flip-flop charge"? Get serious.

As Kirchick said, "All of this goes to show, once again, how politically marginal are those who called for the betrayal of Iraq's democratically elected government." Exactly. Obama hasn't changed anything. He's been explicit about safeguarding our interests and responsibilities in Iraq throughout the primary campaign. Those who only hear what they want to hear are once again shocked by real life.

Very wise piece, thanx for writing it. In a way, you're relecting the insight of the Rolling Stones: Folks want the Singer, not (or at least more than) the Song. We live day-to-day, immersed in the problems of each day. Campaigns invite us to see those in a larger perspective, to join others at the ballot-box in effecting that perspective. What fuels that is the candidate. So, going back down that ladder: We pick "our" candidate. Even a little attention on our part will make us catch the tune ("theme") he or she is singing. The lyrics come third, if at all, for some - and are ways of, as much as anything, keeping the tune in our heads and the image we wish to hold of the candidate. So, yes, believing one attack by "our guy" reinforces his tune and inclines us to persuaded by the others that will come along. So far, at least, Obama's staying on-key and carrying his tune better than McCain is doing on his stage. May that continue!

Could you point to McCain's actual experience? I mean sure, he is experienced as a POW and if we have need of one I will be glad to let him do the job again (he seems a little old for it, but since it is his most important biographical detail it would be unfair to deny him the chance).

Other than that he seems to have just been a typical Republican drone in the Senate, voting for everything Bush wanted and demonstrating just how much a "Maverick" he is by voting to remove a Democratic President for the "high-crime" of having out of wedlock sex. Oh, and helping to ram through a bill supporting torture by the CIA.

Would those be the democratic elections held under the watchful eye of the US Occupation forces?

Regale us again with how the Vichy government represented the will of the French people robert, I do so love your fairy tales.

Here Here NotAs. I've also heard John McCain called "scrappy underdog" .. how many elections in deep red Arizona has Mr. McCain had to face as the underdog?

As for the meme that Republicans are better at defense and security.. They had control of both Houses of Congress and the White House for years, see what a great job they did!

I'd like to believe this theory, as it would mean McCain is toast this November. However, how do you account for large swings in public polling past election cycles?

Barak has lost my vote. I don't in good conscious vote for someone who would hose the 4th amendment. I've heard that I'm enabling McCain, who is unconscionable as a candidate, to that I say, too bad. I don't play those games. Perhaps I'll write in Clark's name, or if a movement got behind a third candidate I would certainly take a look

Enjoy your purity, Phaedrus. Though, have you considered, with your high regard for purity, that politics might not be the hobby for you?

Right back at you, NBarnes - why aren't you voting for McCain, is he not PURE enough for you?

It's funny, though, I'm not a clean freak or a particularly judgmental person, or even that honest - and I'll bet my moral code is as maleable as the next guy. But there's something about the idea that the FISA compromise flaunts the constitution (no one is arguing that) that just burns a bright line in the sand for me.

I find myself looking around in a bewildered fashion at my fellow Americans are willing to vote away some of the basic rights that our founders seemed to cherish, and to rationalize it with the idea that the other guy would be worse.

Where does it stop? Suppose McCain advocates arresting everyone who speaks against the war, but Obama mitigates this by arresting only those who directly insult the troops - do we give up our first amendment also?

I admit I'm a bit adrift, and perhaps I'm not being consistent, but I'm not voting for Obama.

Matt,
This was a brilliant post highlighting a dynamic we tend to overlook, but I wonder if the last two sentences are true. Does it seem so unlikely that many people agree with each major candidate on some issues (or think each has distinct strengths) but decide particular issues or qualifications are important enough to be deciding criteria?

This is an excellent post and a good point.

Your theory breaks down, I think, in very close elections -- the substantive content of the attack does matter on the margins, and when the election is inside those margins the attacks are salient per se.

Oh please. No one has made a bigger flip flp than McCain has about Bush's dollar devaluing, debt increasing tax cuts, and Obama should shove it down McCain's elderly throat over and over and over again.

Absolutely right. See the Democratic Primary for case and point.

The general prosperity of daily American life changes because the vibe or atmosphere changes, and this happens because of cultural or counter-cultural movements of consciousness; politics and art and music come together to primally influence people, and it must be primal for it to pervade the everyday monotony of the current western mind. Another Revolution is at hand. This one may not get shot down, doped up or turned into chaos. Let's hope.

Matt: "I think that if Obama becomes unpopular and loses the election it'll be because a larger number of voters decide that having a "tough" foreign policy is the most important thing."

Which is precisely why the upcoming Iran war is a done deal. That's why it's being timed the way it is - that and the intent to tie the hands of the incoming administration no matter who it is.

And unlike those who think the US population is smart enough to realize that an Iran war is going to be the biggest military disaster in US history, I have less confidence in an electorate in which at least thirty percent of the population STILL support Bush after eight utterly disastrous years.


I find myself looking around in a bewildered fashion at my fellow Americans are willing to vote away some of the basic rights that our founders seemed to cherish, and to rationalize it with the idea that the other guy would be worse.

I'm not sure you realize how stupid this sounds. Your actual sentiment is really bewilderment? Do you think the 'idea that the other guy would be worse' is wrong or just a poor justification. Voting for a bad candidate is not like killing someone b/c the 'ends justify the means'. There is no moral high ground to be maintained. You can look at a vote in different ways, but the simplest is as a consequences based act. I vote for the candidate who I think will do the least damage to my civil rights when I vote for Obama. It is plausible, though in my opinion not very compelling, to argue that the better political strategy is to refuse to vote for Dems until they support views that better align with yours, but the short term consequence is most certainly electing Republicans that are even worse. I'm not so sure why its so bewildering that people wouldn't be too keen with that.

Come on people.....less use some of the lessons history has taught us. A)The President doesn't control everything good or bad that happens in the USA or the world. B) All decisions by all men everywhere are based on money,sex or religion. C) There is such a thing as being in the right office at the wrong time, i.e., George Bush. D) An inexperienced president can risk the lives of us all, i.e.; John Kennedy (Bay of Pigs - Yea, he got us out of World War 3 AFTER his policies and lack of experience attracted the attention of the Soviet Union like blood attracts the attention of a Grizzly Bear) E) Democrats want an America that evenly distributes the wealth, and where government "takes care" of everything. They always have and always will. It's called Socialism. F) Republicans believe in a free society where hard work is rewarded and government stays out of the way. G) As is the case throughout History, poor and middle class people that don't take responsibility for their actions and are hostile towards successful, hard working people will vote Democrat most often because of the carrot that is hung in front of them. People who are fair minded and hard working vote Republican because they want to maintain their RIGHT to share when they see fit. H) The words ALL politicians speak are designed for two things. One is to get your vote and the other is to shut you up.
Now vote for who you want but don’t' think you are doing it for any other reason other than your own self interest, because you are not. And if you are one of those rare individuals who are concerned with the "good of many", you may want to go into politics, where your whole belief system will be turned upside down by the lust for power and greed that lives deep within all of our souls.

Phaedrus, I'm genuinely curious if you've read the new FISA compromise bill.

Does it grant criminal immunity as well as civil for the telcoms? For the administration?

Does it strengthen the existing FISA court that we've lived under for 3 decades?

Does it disallow unjustified to that same FISA court wiretapping?

I haven't been able to find anyone who has actually read the new compromise bill...or at least anyone who can answer my questions about it.

Have you? Can you answer my questions?

Obama should have a easy win in this election with Bush helping him all the way.
If anyone thinks that Bush can change things, they should put that quarter under their pillow.
The old tooth Fairy works every time.

If the Democrats lose this election they had better give up and start wiretapping, torture, burn the constitution. If all this is ok with the people we need to go down the drain.

I just sent my donation to Barack Obama, moments ago. I can not take 4 more years of Bush (McBush, Bush Lite, McOld, McBoring, McOutOfTouch, etc.). Everyone around me is worked about his / her job, food prices, high gas prices, lack of healthcare, etc. We need help. If McCain gets into office, we will not have a country left; we will become a third world country. Barack for President!

Hey mpowell,
Did you read my whole post? I thought I laid it out pretty clearly. I'll say it again, at the risk of sounding stupid to you again. Is there any limit on your idea of voting for the best of two bad choices? For example, if McCain were saying he would kill all children but Obama were saying he would only kill every third child, would Obama still be your choice for candidate?
Both candidates in this election have acknowledged that they support breaking our constitution (GDavis, I rely upon Glenn Greenwald as more source for interpretation of the FISA compromise). There is nothing more basic to our American way of life than the constitution, and I find it distressing and bewildering that my fellow citizens would allow it to be trammeled in such a way with barely a shrug.
I understand the "best guy" voting idea for lesser ideals - health care, Social security, etc. - but not for constitutional issues.
Hope that clears it up.

None of the people currently getting hysterical about Obama's perfectly sensible position on FISA seem to know anything about FISA that doesn't come off some fringe website, or about Obama's actual position.

Lemmings.

None of the people currently getting hysterical about Obama's perfectly sensible position on FISA seem to know anything about FISA that doesn't come off some fringe website, or about Obama's actual position.

Lemmings.

None of the people currently getting hysterical about Obama's perfectly sensible position on FISA seem to know anything about FISA that doesn't come off some fringe website, or about Obama's actual position.

Lemmings.

None of the people currently getting hysterical about Obama's perfectly sensible position on FISA seem to know anything about FISA that doesn't come off some fringe website, or about Obama's actual position.

Lemmings.

Here's a surprise, a moron like powell, supporter of mass murder (how's your campaign for the canonization of Pol Pot going?) is also too stupid to work the comment system here.

(watch, now I'll do the same thing and ruin my handle)

Oh, and warrantless searches violate of the Fourth Amendment. Not that I would expect a total moron to understand that.

Hey "NOT AS STUPID"......... Read the Fourth Amendment. It say's "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." . .........Now how could you have missed the words "UNREASONABLE" and "BUT UPON PROBALE CAUSE"?????? .......Let's see if you have the courage of your convictions. Name one person you know that has been a victim of an "unreasonable search and seizure" by the US Government. Can’t' think of anyone? That's because it doesn't happen to law abiding citizens. Grant it, the system isn't perfect and from time to time you hear of a "mistake" by the police department. But that is NOT "the governments" fault.

Known fucktard "CommonSense" (there's a laugh!) babbles:

"Name one person you know that has been a victim of an "unreasonable search and seizure" by the US Government. Can’t' think of anyone? That's because it doesn't happen to law abiding citizens."

U.S. Report to Fault F.B.I. on Subpoenas
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/09/washington/09attorneys.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Police blotter: FBI's 'misleading' wiretap suppressed
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1039_3-6165067.html

Just to mention two. And of course there was COINTELPRO:

The Final report of the Church Committee:

"Too many people have been spied upon by too many Government agencies and too much information has been collected. The Government has often undertaken the secret surveillance of citizens on the basis of their political beliefs, even when those beliefs posed no threat of violence or illegal acts on behalf of a hostile foreign power. The Government, operating primarily through secret informants, but also using other intrusive techniques such as wiretaps, microphone "bugs", surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, has swept in vast amounts of information about the personal lives, views, and associations of American citizens. Investigations of groups deemed potentially dangerous -- and even of groups suspected of associating with potentially dangerous organizations -- have continued for decades, despite the fact that those groups did not engage in unlawful activity. Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed -- including anonymous attempts to break up marriages, disrupt meetings, ostracize persons from their professions, and provoke target groups into rivalries that might result in deaths. Intelligence agencies have served the political and personal objectives of presidents and other high officials. While the agencies often committed excesses in response to pressure from high officials in the Executive branch and Congress, they also occasionally initiated improper activities and then concealed them from officials whom they had a duty to inform.

INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES AND THE RIGHTS OF AMERICANS BOOK II, FINAL REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS WITH RESPECT TO INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES UNITED STATES SENATE (Church Committee)

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/churchfinalreportIIa.htm

Only an American would be stupid enough to make a remark like "That's because it doesn't happen to law abiding citizens." Every other citizen of every other country has history of their states doing this stuff. They know and don't trust their states. Only an American, brainwashed by the American educational system, into thinking this country is somehow "immune" from illegal acts by the state, could possibly say something like this moron did.

This is WHY the United States is so dangerous to the world - it's full of ignorant morons like this one.

CommonSense, are you serious or just a troll? The criteria to see if something is lawful is not whether or not it has happened to someone you know. And the "probable cause" clause is exactly what is being violated by the government's current wiretapping policies (see the judgements handed down on it to date - the latest judge said that the participating telecomms could not have thought the government requests anything but illegal).

This absolutely does happen to law abiding citizens, a lawyer here in Oregon is suing and had proof that it had happened to him - the Justice Dept accidentally released transcripts of his private calls.

Do not trust the government

All childish insults aside, Reread what I wrote. I never claimed that injustice isn’t' out there .The system is not perfect. By asking the question, "name one person you KNOW", I mean to illustrate that it's not common place for these things to happen. As I pointed out, there are mistakes made. Man is not perfect and sometimes he's not fair. I make my own judgments based on what I see and experience in everyday life, not what I read in "reports". The only effect "brainwash" is one that stops you from making your own judgments. If there are cases of abuse in our system, they should be investigated and corrected. All in all, I'll deal with and isolated incident here and there for the sake of national security.

It’s amazing that so many people pretend to “have the answers”. Until you have walked in the shoes of the men that have to make the really hard decisions, don’t’ assume it’s as black and white as you think.

It you have that perfect God that wants to be president, nominate him! Remember, we get the government we deserve. The voting booths are open to everyone over 18.

Let's pretend I'm very popular and know upwards of 200 people. If the current population of the US is 20 million, that leaves 19,999,800 people that could have been eaves dropped upon by the government without me knowing one of them... I would say your method of illustration needs to be rethought.

Let me ask you - do you believe that man has walked on the moon? Surely you don't, since you haven't seen or experienced that in your everyday life. I'm positive you would have had to rely upon a "report" of some kind - perhaps a news clip or documentary. The important thing is to be able to discriminate between true and false "reports".

The US government systematically vacuumed up information on unknown numbers of US citizens, hardly an "isolated incident". And we all agree that "abuse of the system" should be investigated - but the current FISA compromise disallows this, which makes me think (from you initial post) that you might need to read a "report" on FISA.

America is built on the rule of law, the idea that we can break that for some nebulous "national security" talking point is the height of cowardice. I agree that things can be complex, but the people who make these hard decisions need to be able to explain them so that we can to some small extent understand. Currently, we have no defensible reason for breaking the law - let me know if anything you've seen or experienced can mount a defense.

"Talking point"?? Have we been attacked since 911? Don't assume my position on FISA or anything else. You see, you don’t' really know where I'm coming from.. I'm neutral and I am looking out for my own self interest, like everyone else. I'm more interested in the safety of my family and those I love than any other issue. What are you most interested in?

Phaedrus.... sorry, I forget.... I really don't feel like "mounting a defense" on all of my opinions or beliefs. I don't see this as an online competition, just an exchange of ideas and opinions. There will be many topics that you may be better versed than I, and vice versa. I'm hearing everything you say and it's all interesting banter. I’m tired. Good night.

I have a really hard time following your logic, CommonSense. Are we still talking about the warrantless wiretapping that is immunized by the FISA compromise? That program started before 911.

In the last five years there have been more than twenty times as many Americans killed and maimed in the illegal war in Iraq than in the attack 911. Our foreign policy is creating terrorists faster than we could ever kill them and America is now known as a country that explicitly tortures and "disappears" people, causing worldwide loathing and hatred.

The best way to keep family and loved ones safe is to go back to the rule of law, hold those who took us down this mis-begotten road accountable, and start rebuilding the reputation of America as a place of truth and justice.

If the current population of the United States is 30 billion, that leaves 29 billion 999 million 999,800 people who might have been waterboarded for talking too long on the phone!

It's a stretch to make scanning millions of overseas phonecalls for bits of info on terrorists into a crime against the Fourth Amendment, but we can always count on our lefty friends to get hysterical about Evildoers in High Places at the drop of a hat, unless of course they're in the governments of leftist regimes.

It's pretty obvious to most people that law enforcement people make mistakes all the time, and that the test is whether or not the evidence accumulated in ways that don't comport with the Constitution is disallowed in prosecution. Happens all the time-it's called "the rule of law", which we adhere to imperfectly but better than most anyone else. In most of the countries the left would like us to emulate, such things are routine law enforcement techniques allowed by law.

Yet another reason Obama, like any sensible candidate, will avoid association with the kind of left-wing anti-American hysteria in evidence around the FISA issue like the plague.

"Talking point"?? Have we been attacked since 911?

Yes. Yes we have.

The attacks won't work because conservatism is a bankrupt ideology that is destroying America.

"It's a stretch to make scanning millions of overseas phone calls for bits of info on terrorists into a crime against the Fourth Amendment"

Actually, no. Phone call conversations are private and no one has the authority to listen in without a warrant. A claim such as yours needs some sort of citations.

But a point I'd like to make is how do you know your description is correct? Again, citations would be appreciated. Leaks have said that the telecomms were scooping up every conversation, domestic and foreign. And indications are that things were even worse (what program spurred the Justice Department to threaten to quit when they heard of it)?

Since when is it leftist to defend our constitutional rights?

Defending the constitution is actually the definition of pro-American - you're liberal use of ad hominen attacks shows me you know your case is weak and your sounding very authoritarian, Bob.

Posted by robert powell | July 6, 2008 3:33 AM:
If the current population of the United States is 30 billion, that leaves 29 billion 999 million 999,800 people who might have been waterboarded for talking too long on the phone!

Is that point equally effective of the current population is 300 million, or is it 100 times as effective with 30 billion?

Do pledged Obama delegates have the obligation to switch votes at the convention if they feel that he no longer represents the sentiments of those that elected him?

The DNC rules not only allow it, they encourage it:

http://www.pledgednotbound.com/


Comments closed July 18, 2008.

Copyright © 2008 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.