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What Was Wrong With HMOs?

31 Jul 2008 02:19 pm

Say the word "HMO" and most Americans start reaching for their revolver. But most people who look at health policy and health economics agree that the HMOs were actually on to something, and that there really needs to be more scrutiny of which procedures are actually helpful and more emphasis on prevention rather than costly treatment. One question is why didn't this work out better? Paul Krugman's theory:

[I]f costs are to be controlled, someone has to act as a referee on doctors' medical decisions. During the 1990's it seemed, briefly, as if private H.M.O.'s could play that role. But then there was a public backlash. It turns out that even in America, with its faith in the free market, people don't trust for-profit corporations to make decisions about their health.

Tyler Cowen's response:

In my view what people objected to was not the for-profit status of HMOs per se but rather that they could be told they can't get all the care they want. That view will remain.

I don't think Cowen's got this right. Or, rather, while people will naturally always want "all the care they want," people's desire to obtain health care is large part a result of their interaction with the health care system. If I'm feeling ill and want the doctor to prescribe me some antibiotics, but then he says "no no no, you have madeupitis and if you take antibiotics you'll die" then suddenly it seems I don't want the antibiotics anymore. Medical treatment isn't fun, people don't just want treatment for no reason. If you convince them that the treatment isn't useful, they really won't want it.

But that means the person saying "no" needs to be credible, needs to be someone you trust. And I agree with Krugman that a representative of a for-profit company probably isn't it. The company has good reason to deny you coverage that may really be useful -- they just don't want to pay. And if the circumstances are right, it can even be in the HMO's interest for you to do. That's an ugly business and naturally people react differently to being told "no" by a company like that than they would to being counseled by someone they trust.

I think the real question for liberals looking for cost controls is whether the government can play that role. In many countries, public employees and public agencies really are trusted as custodians of the public interest in the necessary sort of way. And in America some public employees and agencies are trusted like that -- the military is treated with extraordinary respect and deference, as are firefighters and in some communities the police are. Vast power is granted to the Federal Reserve with a general sense that it's well-staffed by well-meaning people who can be counted on to do the right thing. But most agencies don't attract that level of respect. The challenge would be to build not just a public agency, but a public agency that people think of as being like the Fed or the Marines, rather than one like the DC Child and Family Services Agency. That's a tall order, but not necessarily an impossible one.

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Comments (56)

And if the circumstances are right, it can even be in the HMO's interest for you to do.

For you to die?

"I think the real question for liberals looking for cost controls is whether the government can play that role."

Well, the folks getting cared for by Medicare seem to have a decent level of trust in the system...

The problem with HMOs wasn't that they were denying unnecessary care, it's that they too often denied care that doctors did believe was medically necessary. (see Michael Moore's SiCKO)

What do the Federal Reserve, the firefighters, the military, and (hopefully), the police have in common that they don't have in common with the DMV, the IRS, the people who give you construction permits for your house, etc.?

Answer: the vast majority of people rarely interact with the Fed, the firefighters, the military, and the police, and when they do interact with them, the government officials are in charge of doing something which is obviously beneficial to the citizen. (For example: firefighters. When you interact with them, they're trying to put out the fire destroying your house. Further note: in communities where people frequently interact with the police, and the police are not obviously doing them an unqualified service, the police are held in much lower respect).

This suggests to me that bureaucrats in charge of denying you healthcare will be considered much more like the DMV, the IRS, or the people down at city hall, rather than firefighters.

One example that supports your argument is Kaiser, which is a huge non-profit HMO. I have been a Kaiser member for 35 years; I'm now 62. They have treated me for a range of medical issues, from broken bones to a heart attack. I am familiar with the horror stories and I won't make excuses for their screw-ups, but I trust my doctor and I have received reasonably good care. Are they perfect? Hell, no. Am I happy with everything? Nope. But I don't have to deal with an insurance company, I can e-mail my doctor and get an answer within 48 hours,and the Advice Line is staffed 24/7. They provide a tremendous range of preventive services: diabetes education, blood pressure clinics, pre-natal care, etc. They are a possible model -- not the only one -- for where we might go when the current for-profit health care system collapses.

Well, part of the problem is that not a lot of powerful people have a vested interest in demonizing the Fed or the Marines, but it is a safe bet their would be some powerful forces attempting to demonize this agency. And the bottomline is that I doubt Americans will ever trust a third party over their doctors if there is a conflict over whether to go ahead with some procedure.

But in the end I'm not sure it matters. For example, I'm not sure the IRS is particularly popular, but we live with it anyway because we recognize the need. So, if people accept the case for such an agency, I think it will be viable, even if it causes a lot of grumbling.

well, Cohen is on to something.

the problem is that many times the medical answer is to do nothing. that's what people don't want to hear. (try dealing with parents and their children...especially firstborns to see this in action!)

In my experience, HMOs started out good and then went bad. There were constant pressures to cut costs, to cut (and contract out) services, and generally, to do mass-produced medicine. And once an HMO went down this path, it was just downhill all the way-- there was no getting back to the original policies.

Well, the folks getting cared for by Medicare seem to have a decent level of trust in the system.

Agreed. And that's one of the secondary benefits of simply continually expanding Medicare to cover more and more Americans, rather than forcing them to buy private insurance.

Frontline Sick Around the World:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

A big problem is that the HMO's have acted as doctors. When you are saying that a procedure or test is unnecessary, you are practicing medicine. The Repubs tried to pass a law to protect them from lawsuits when they did this, essentially taking away any and all risk for denying care out of hand.

And the "free market" is efficient at delivering any particular good or service to the most profitable segment of the population. That's why people don't trust it when it comes to their health. Your survival and the company's goals don't necessarily match, and nobody wants to be told "you're no longer profitable to us, so please die."

Fundamentally in order for health care not to eat up 100% of our economy, we need to have some or other form of cost-controls/rationing of it, right?

The thing is that a lot of Americans are far more comfortable with "the market" doing the rationing than they are with people or legal processes, perhaps our nation has its roots in a certain particular form of Christianity (we don't trust people -- who are tainted with Original Sin -- and certainly don't trust laws -- following which in a very shallow and mistaken reading of Paul's epistles, will kill us). Anyway, for whatever reason, we tend to think -- pace Koheleth on the race not going to the swift, etc -- that if someone can't afford [X] they don't deserve it whilst if government denies them [X], it would be injust ... because people deserve what they can afford, 'cause they earned that money dangit!, and anyway the market rewards the deserving and punishes the underserving.

I forget where I was going with this, but something along the lines that health care rationing exists and is tolerated because it is purely done by assigning prices to things and people who can pay get the care. Any other outcome, even (especially) for profit entities actually making that decision in an explicit manner (rather than just pricing people out of things), is deemed injust and not accepted.

In my humble opinion (having the studied the matter rather thoroughly in law school under a rather well known health care attorney/profesor/academic), I think you are basically on point as to the reasons for the backlash.

Gov't officials, health care exec.s, policy wonks all knew the HOW of the actual cost reductions seen: methods such as capitation, restricted networks, limits . . . the NO as it were. The problem - in the most general sense - was that they were not a at all open with the public and with doctors about what was going on (I suspect they were no more dishonest/stingy/fraudulent than traditional insurance providers when it comes to dropping patients, refusing to pay for appropriate care, etc.).

So the PUBLIC (patient/client) public backlash was basically like you characterize it. No one likes the idea of being told no, but again, this is still not much different than fee-for-service insurance carriers saying no.

The big difference maker - in my opinion - was the squeeze that the healthcare providers felt, particularly doctors (who tend to be a rather self-important and petulant group). Previous protectionistic responses to the introduction of HMO's got the AMA smacked down at the S.Ct. for anti-trust violations (I think S.Ct.??? - the case involved blackballing of doctors who worked with HMOs by not allowing hospital privileges).

Telling the patient/consumer "No" is one thing . . . telling "infallible" and unmaniginable doctors "No" . . . watch out.

there problem occurs when you have a for profit company paying doctors when they keep costs down by not treating patients. that makes patients and physicians uncomfortable and leads to mistrust of the HMO. the other side of it - where doctors are doing procedures that don't necessarily need to be done just but are being done because they can - is just as bad. the fact is people want choice. they want to choose their doctors, they want to choose their treatments, and if they don't like what they hear they want to choose to go somewhere else. HMOs made those choices harder.

In my experience, HMOs started out good and then went bad.

U.S. Healthcare was the star. Then Aetna bought them out and turned the best medical insurance company in my region to a lump of s***.

In my humble opinion (having the studied the matter rather thoroughly in law school under a rather well known health care attorney/profesor/academic), I think you are basically on point as to the reasons for the backlash.

Gov't officials, health care exec.s, policy wonks all knew the HOW of the actual cost reductions seen: methods such as capitation, restricted networks, limits . . . the NO as it were. The problem - in the most general sense - was that they were not a at all open with the public and with doctors about what was going on (I suspect they were no more dishonest/stingy/fraudulent than traditional insurance providers when it comes to dropping patients, refusing to pay for appropriate care, etc.).

So the PUBLIC (patient/client) public backlash was basically like you characterize it. No one likes the idea of being told no, but again, this is still not much different than fee-for-service insurance carriers saying no.

The big difference maker - in my opinion - was the squeeze that the healthcare providers felt, particularly doctors (who tend to be a rather self-important and petulant group). Previous protectionistic responses to the introduction of HMO's got the AMA smacked down at the S.Ct. for anti-trust violations (I think S.Ct.??? - the case involved blackballing of doctors who worked with HMOs by not allowing hospital privileges).

Telling the patient/consumer "No" is one thing . . . telling "infallible" and unmanagable doctors "No" . . . watch out.

(sorry if his double posts)

A lot of the things HMOs denied were not even health care as such, but rather the extras that make enduring health care tolerable. An extra day in the hospital to recover from surgery. Fifteen minutes with a doctor who took the time to explain what was happening. Both patients and doctors objected to having these things cut in the interest of saving money. They are the things that humanized the practice of medicine, and eliminating them makes people unhappy even if the eventual outcome of the treatment is the same.

If this were just an issue of people being denied care they didn't need, there wouldn't be a problem. The real problem stems from the fact that any system, even government-run, that wants to contain costs will have to restrict access to useful but expensive treatments. HMOs did so and got hammered for it. A government plan will have to make the same choices.

I feel like I'm slowly moving to the left on Healthcare. Something like ObamaCare, where it isn't completely socialized could be a good thing. My parents own a small business, and just what they would save on insurance! It's really opened my eyes, even if I'm not a full blown believer in it yet.

Another key thing the health-care rationers will have to do:

Break the idiosyncratic anecdotal evidence-based nature of doctors' behavior.

This is a thankless cat-herding task that will earn the healthcare rationer much hatred.

Doctors will exagerate/falsify diagnosis to shoehorn their preferred treatment plan into the approved categories. (I speak as the spouse of a doctor who regularly tells me how much she has to do exactly that.)

Doctors will undermine the implementation of and political support for any attempt to bring evidence-based cost-benefit rationing to healthcare.

As someone who is not well-versed in health care policy but who made the mistake of signing up for an HMO with a new job (and BTW, why is everyone talking about HMOs in the past tense?) I can tell you what MY problem with HMOs is: they involve almost mind-boggling layers of bureaucracy to get simple procedures done -- procedures that my doctor is recommending, not that I am requesting. Every time my ob-gyn recommends a procedure, there is a wait of at least a month as the office obtains authorization, which sometimes requires me to go back to my primary, who simply rubber-stamps the original recommendation. Meanwhile, I have to take hours off from work and pay co-pays for all these non-value-adding additional steps. Not to mention the mental anguish as I wait and wait to find out if that little something my doctor noticed is anything to worry about.

As my father, who is a doctor, put it: the business model of HMOs is to hope that eventually you either go away or die.

Lizzy L,

I've had similar positive experiences with Kaiser (although at one point they did deny a claim in a very stupid manner, but I wrote a letter to appeal the denial and won). And part of their business model is, indeed, health maintainance ... they really are interested in keeping you healthy, so they do a good job of making sure you don't get sick in the first place.

My dad works for Kaiser as well -- when he started out, it was a wonderful environment: he didn't have to worry about managing a private practice but could concentrate on actually providing patients with top notch care (and not worry about paperwork, etc). However, things have changed at Kaiser -- in spite of being non-profit, they care more about "the bottom line" and have let a lot of the support staff go via attrition and the medical staff have to do a lot more of the "business end". Meanwhile, they deny more and more care ... and, in the end, what does it get them?

American business, even so-called non-profits like Kaiser, have a habit of cutting off their noses to spite their faces. This becomes a key problem when health care providers become so obsessed with "efficiency" they cease being able to provide good health care.

Actually, DTM is onto something with his "powerful forces out to demonize" argument. As MattF points out, HMOs started out good (which is why conservatives can dig up speeches of Ted Kennedey praising HMOs, as if that should reflect badly on Sen. Kennedey ... of course, the GOP was right about HMOs, but for the same reason why they are right about government being ineffectual -- they get into office and run it inneffectually ... similarly profit hounds took over even so called non-profit HMOs and ran them horrendously) then turned bad. The turning point was when there was all this hue and cry in the media about un-necessary medical procedures. My mom (who is quite sharp about these sort of things) immediately saw what would happen -- "so they are complaining about this now, but this just provides cover for medical insurance to start denying claims right and left", which is indeed what happened.

Is it irresponsible (and paranoid) to speculate that people with an agenda of trying to provide cover for medical insurance companies to get into the business of denying claims (the real business of insurers ;) ) were behind this flood of stories? It is irresponsible not to speculate ...

With the rise google-it-yourself healthcare, I'm not entirely convinced that people will listen to anyone if they want some form of healthcare that is being denied them.

However, the most credible "deniers of service" in our society today are still doctors. I'm sure most people would take their word over an HMO OR a government agency, whose priorities are around an aggregate group, while your priorities as an individual patient or for your family are more narrow. No wonder in some cases the two come into conflict.

That said, I still have not gotten a satisfactory answer to my question of what is causing healthcare costs to rise so quickly? How much of it is say, salaries, equipment, forms, real estate, whatever it is. I don't see how any of these "solutions" will get at the long term issue if costs keep rising so fast. And the easiest way to "cut costs" is to "stop doing stuff" (ie deny services), but can someone figure out why, when stuff is actually done, it's so expensive?

Mike D - Very true. Dr.'s resistance to evidence based treatment helps no one.


I once had madeupitis, but my HMO told me to suck it up and I got better.

The big complaint about HMOs is that, all too often decisions about medical procedures, are made by the bean counters (i.e. accountants) who have no training or expertise in medicine. In the real world, this would constitute practicing medicine without a license but in the fantasy HMO world it's legal in the name of cost containment.

As progressive talk show host Bernie Ward puts it, the health care system in the US can be best described as mangled health care.

But that means the person saying "no" needs to be credible, needs to be someone you trust. And I agree with Krugman that a representative of a for-profit company probably isn't it.

A representative of the government is even less likely to be it. In case you haven't noticed, Americans do not exactly have a high degree of trust in the government to do right by them or run things efficiently.

The company has good reason to deny you coverage that may really be useful -- they just don't want to pay.

And the government has even more reason to deny you coverage that may be really useful -- it has a fixed budget. That's why Brits and Canadians have to wait so long for consultations and tests and treatments (if they ever get them at all) that Americans get right away. The market is simply much better at matching supply with demand than the government is.

In the old days (up to the mid 80s) there were two kinds of people- those who could afford hospitalization, and those who couldn't. Combined with a near-absolute power by the doctors, this produced some odd results.

Consider the woman who had had 11 exploratory abdominal surgeries (she actually brought her own mattress pad with her for her 12th admission). Or the woman clerk (with good union health coverage) who spent every year's vacation in the hospital, getting some not particularly dangerous surgery- for two decades. Rich people beyond measure were admitted for intravenous morphine to treat "pancreatic pain", or to recover in seclusion from drinking binges that spanned months.

This insanity was paid for by everybody. Rich people paid the same as poor for a hospital bed, and that price was inflated by overbuilding hospital beds. In fact, healthcare repeatedly shows a situation where artificial scarcity drives prices up, but artificial abundance also drives prices up.

With Medicare came increasingly hard-eyed looks at who was getting charged for what, and many of the abusive practices of the past have been curbed or lessened. This didn't happen because doctors were struck by the desire to be economical, and it didn't happen because Group Health and Kaiser Permanente made the rest of the industry envious of their economies. It happened because a huge federal bureaucracy didn't want to pay for a lot of stuff they weren't getting.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

It seems to me that the objection is really rather simple: Health care is a an object with unidirectional demand -- we need the sucker. Much like modern society requires energy, roads, telecommunications, etc. When those items are provided for by for-profit organizations, the organization, by nature, wants to maximize profits. The two needs conflict: The best way to maximize profits is to increase scarcity and decrease expenditure, thus reducing your costs while increasing the price.

But since these things are basic needs, that amounts to exclusion of some people (by policy, price, or availability) from bedrocks of modern life. This becomes a moral issue for most people, because there's always a chance you could become one of the excluded, and who wants that?

There's a fundamental clash of values when it comes to necessities. Why privilege profit-maximization at the cost of human well-being?

Ergo, screw the for-profit HMOs.

James F Elliott,

There's a fundamental clash of values when it comes to necessities. Why privilege profit-maximization at the cost of human well-being?

This nonsense, yet again. Housing, food, and clothing are also necessities. Are you therefore also proposing to turn over the provision of those goods from for-profit private companies to the government?

And the government has even more reason to deny you coverage that may be really useful -- it has a fixed budget.

It does? Then how come wars are free and the deficit is pushing half a trillion?

I don't deny that the government has incentives to not spend infinite money--but since health care programs tend to be entitlements, the phrase "fixed budget" doesn't really seem to be appropriate.

Anyway, your fellow free marketeers will probably kick you out of the club if they hear you say that a bureaucrat has more of an incentive to control costs than a businessman.

"the military is treated with extraordinary respect and deference... But most agencies don't attract that level of respect"

So the answer is to put the military in charge of managing national health care!

I'm only half kidding. If you're creating a new federal bureaucracy, you can make it part of whatever existing government structure you want. What would stop you from making the health care oversight structure part of the army? People's reluctance to diss the military might at the very least buy the new program some time, while it was starting out, during which people would be reluctant to criticize it.

The biggest problem, I guess, is that executive control over the military is so strong that Congressional oversight would be hampered. So maybe it's not such a great idea, after all. Never mind.

Actually, I think Cowen has a point that MY is missing. And it's a point that MY insists on missing every time he comes to this issue. Medical care cannot be divided neatly into necessary and unnecessary categories. Anytime someone is telling me what procedures I can and cannot get and they have some responsibility to limit costs, I know that there is a good chance that I'll miss out on care I would have liked to have gotten.

Let me give you an example: recently I sprained my ankle and got an x-ray done. No broken ankle. But after 4 months, the ankle was still a problem. So we got an MRI scan done. Turns out there was a bone bruise and it'll take another couple months to heal. It also recommends a different treatment pattern. If I was a professional athlete, I would have gotten the MRI up front, just in case, and avoided risking cartilage damage and would have know the proper treatment course from the get go. Getting an MRI for every ankle sprain is way to expensive for the general population, but it is done every single time for an NBA player (maybe MY can appreciate this). Rationing care always lead to rationing of useful care. Period. Let's not pretend otherwise.

By the way, I am still a fan of health care reform. I just feel that this point needs to be reiterated.

"Well, the folks getting cared for by Medicare seem to have a decent level of trust in the system"

I don't think Medicare does say no. I think that is part of the basis for the satisfaction (and the cost escalation). And that is problematic for single payer advocates as to the extent there are government programs, the government hasn't been able to say no. And with an aging population, I don't think it will be an electorally popular move to say no. I think McCain has it half right in that you need to move away from engineering health policy through the tax code, I think this will have a significant impact on cost control. Where McCain fails abysmally is that he hasn't given any consideration of risk pooling. I think that's where you either have to force insurers to acceept pre-existing conditions or create a catastrophic re-insurance program. Or we could look towards a policy along the lines of Jason Furman's progressive cost sharing.

I also take issue with the following sentence from Matt and a theme oft repeated by Ezra Klein:
"Medical treatment isn't fun, people don't just want treatment for no reason."

Matt is right, people don't wake up and think to themselves "hey, I wanna go get a spinal tap." Certainly that is true. But I think it is also true that when people have a medical issue they want to do everything possible to resolve that medical issue, and that often involves a lot of procedures that are not effective, but a least you can say you are throwing everything you have at the problem. This is especially the case in this country with end of life situations. Some problems really are intractable, and that is a realization that most Americans find very difficult to accept.

Then how come wars are free

They're not.

and the deficit is pushing half a trillion?

Because the government has spent over budget.

I don't deny that the government has incentives to not spend infinite money--but since health care programs tend to be entitlements, the phrase "fixed budget" doesn't really seem to be appropriate.

If you're suggesting that the government would chronically spend over budget on health care, and keep piling up more and more debt then that's another reason to oppose it. We're already facing a fiscal train wreck with Medicare, and sooner or later we'll have to address that with higher taxes, cuts in services, or both.

Mixner,

Basic housing, food and clothing is a need, beyond the basics there is a lot of personal choice.

Person A may want a 3,000 square foot house with a large media room and be content to spend a large part of their income on it while eating cheap home cooked food and never going to the movies. Person B may be happy with a 1,000 square foot condo close to movie theaters and restaurants so they spend less on their housing and more on eating out and going to the movies.

Health care isn't like that, a broken leg is a broken leg, cancer is cancer, you either have them or you don't.

And the government has even more reason to deny you coverage that may be really useful -- it has a fixed budget.

I dunno about you, but I have a fixed budget (if you don't, do you mind sending me some money? ;) ). My insurance company also has a fixed budget, more or less. Actually, the federal government (which can, in theory if worse comes to worse, inflate itself out of any debt ... although that would be disastrous) is pretty much the only entity without a fixed budget!

That's why Brits and Canadians have to wait so long for consultations and tests and treatments (if they ever get them at all) that Americans get right away.

Hasn't this been shown not be so true after all? I guess Americans who manage to have top notch insurance get the tests and treatments quicker than Brits and Canadians do, but for many of us, we actually have to wait longer to get insurance approval, etc. (if we every get the procedure approved ... and c.f. my point about fixed budgets) than do the Brits and Canadians.

The market is simply much better at matching supply with demand than the government is. - Mixner

Generally true, but not always.

FearItself,

If I recall correctly, the NIH and CDC tend to do well in federal agency job approval polls. So you could probably try to use those brand names for a plan like that.

Basic housing, food and clothing is a need - eric k.

And the government subsidizes basic housing for those who can't afford it. In areas where housing is particularly expensive, government subsidizes quite a bit of housing (e.g. NYC).

When I was a graduate student, I was making a low enough salary that when I moved down to FL with that salary, I qualified to live in publicly subsidized housing but I did not qualify for publicly subsidized medical care that would meet my basic medical insurance needs.

Government subsidizes food up the wazoo both to lower and raise the cost (the latter to keep farmers in business). There are huge problems with how it's done (as we discuss in left blogostan all the time), but food subsidies mean that probably for the first time in history, poor people can get fat.

Clothing is, I think, the odd man out. But private charity seems to do a good enough job here where markets fail. Part of the thing with both clothing and food is that everyone knows someone who can give them extra food and extra clothing. Housing is different (although people often can live with family in tough spots).

Health care is very different because (unless you're Jewish or something where you can run into physicians at shul and bum free health care off of them) it's very hard for random people of your acquaintance to give you their extra health care (c.f. extra food) or old health care that no longer fits since they've gained/lost weight (c.f. old clothing).

So government subsidies and programs may very well be necessary because of the inelastic demand for health care causing the market to fail.

I also take issue with the following sentence from Matt and a theme oft repeated by Ezra Klein:
"Medical treatment isn't fun, people don't just want treatment for no reason."

Matt is right, people don't wake up and think to themselves "hey, I wanna go get a spinal tap." Certainly that is true.

This drives me nuts, because the Matt/Ezra line is so obviously, painfully stupid that I've got to believe they both know it, but want to handwave the problem away.

So, as Richard says above, yeah, just because you don't go in for a spinal tap when you aren't sick doesn't mean that you won't overconsume when you are sick. But, moreover, plenty of people overconsume when they shouldn't be interacting with the health care system at all. There are lots of minor-grade hypochondriacs out there. Not the full-blown crazies who really do want a spinal tap for no reason -- they're rare enough to be ignorable -- but the people who work themselves into a tizzy when they get the sniffles or suffer a minor sports injury or whatever, and want to get a doctor to extensively check them out and reassure them. That level of hypochondria is pretty common -- I'd guess that about 10% of the population falls into the category of wanting to go to the doctor's office when the appropriate course of action is to get some over the counter medicine and wait a day or two.

All of that is not to say that we should never, ever, ever change from our present system. Our present system is pretty bad. But this whole, "Medical treatment isn't fun, people don't just want treatment for no reason" argument is stupid and dishonest, and needs to stop.

"Well, the folks getting cared for by Medicare seem to have a decent level of trust in the system"

I don't think Medicare does say no. I think that is part of the basis for the satisfaction (and the cost escalation). And that is problematic for single payer advocates as to the extent there are government programs, the government hasn't been able to say no. And with an aging population, I don't think it will be an electorally popular move to say no. I think McCain has it half right in that you need to move away from engineering health policy through the tax code, I think this will have a significant impact on cost control. Where McCain fails abysmally is that he hasn't given any consideration of risk pooling. I think that's where you either have to force insurers to acceept pre-existing conditions or create a catastrophic re-insurance program. Or we could look towards a policy along the lines of Jason Furman's progressive cost sharing.

I also take issue with the following sentence from Matt and a theme oft repeated by Ezra Klein:
"Medical treatment isn't fun, people don't just want treatment for no reason."

Matt is right, people don't wake up and think to themselves "hey, I wanna go get a spinal tap." Certainly that is true. But I think it is also true that when people have a medical issue they want to do everything possible to resolve that medical issue, and that often involves a lot of procedures that are not effective, but a least you can say you are throwing everything you have at the problem. This is especially the case in this country with end of life situations. Some problems really are intractable, and that is a realization that most Americans find very difficult to accept.

"eric k"

Health care isn't like that, a broken leg is a broken leg, cancer is cancer, you either have them or you don't.

Er, neither a broken leg nor cancer is "health care." Health care is obviously not a discrete product or service that you either "have" or "don't have." It's a vast range of products and services that provide a vast range of ways of preventing, diagnosing and treating health problems. So it is certainly comparable to housing or food in this respect. Just as the quality and quantity of the "necessities" food and housing can vary greatly between different people, so can the quality and quantity of the "necessity" health care.


My theory:
Before HMOs, people could love their doctors and hate their insurance companies. After HMOs, there was no external scapegoat to blame for unpopular decisions.

The other component to this is that sometimes you have a doctor who benefits from the patient receiving more care, necessary or not -- that with the insurance company who benefits from you not receiving care, and the patient is stuck in the middle without knowing who to believe or trust (although the tendency is to believe the doctor, since you see that person and when you are sick it feels better to do *something*).

I had coverage for many years with Blue Cross Blue Shield HMO and it was excellent. I also had an experience earlier with a terrible HMO that subsequently went out of business. BCBS provided excellent service with minimal red tape. There is a need to limit treatment in some cases- physician's routinely overprescribe diagnostics to patients who request it to avoid possible suits down the line. There can be no health care reform without comprehensive tort reform as well as limiting the fees that can be charged. FYI- I am a nurse and have worked in both the hospital environment for 17 years but also in the work comp field for the past 14 years.

What is wrong with HMO's?

HMO's take money away from providing health care and spend it on layers of bureaucracy. They don't save money. They spend more money. They spend it on call centers and multiple levels of claim examiners rather than on medical care.

They have departments that receive bonuses for keeping the level of claims paid down. They get incentives for NOT paying claims. So rather than pay for medical care, they money goes to the creative deniers.

That is part of what is wrong with HMO's and it is a large part of why we don't and should not trust them.

Is it the case in all industries that different people would have such varied results? I personally found BCBS to be rather bureaucratic (and self-defeating if their goal was to save money).

They would not cover me to get a cherry angioma removed by my primary care physician but instead required a referral to a specialist (even if the procedure involved could have been done perfectly well by a cheaper, primary care physician).

One time I was having some pretty frightening symptoms (turned out to be nothing serious at all) but the lab for which BCBS would pay 100% of the claim would have taken some number of weeks to get the lab tests back. So I went with the lab that gave me the results back in due time, and then later on was party to a slew of negotiations as the lab tried to get BCBS to pay them and BCBS ignored the lab (every so often I would get a bill too). In the end, I had to pay some nominal fee out of pocket ($20 or something like that) and BCBS probably spent more money on dealing with the problem than they would have spent if they just paid the lab to begin with!

Re: all too often decisions about medical procedures, are made by the bean counters (i.e. accountants) who have no training or expertise in medicine.

This is an urban myth, or perhaps a bit of a rhetorical exaggeration tha too many people take literally. Health plans have a team of RNs, and at least one physician, on staff who make decisions about what procedures to authorize or precert in individual cases. Accountants do NOT work in this role.
And in point of fact very little money is saved by this effort. If a given test or procedure is medically indicated the authorization RNs will almost certainly agree with the patient's physician and they will authorize it.
Where health plans save money (on enrolled patients) is in limiting what they pay out to providers, something that is true of public health plans, both here and abroad as well That's why there's such a big emphasis on staying in network: the doctors the health plan have contracted are pretty much obligated to accept whatever they get for payment and the health plans have devised a myriad schemes to nickle and dime them, though patients are often oblivious to this unless they study their EOBs closely.

Re: I'd guess that about 10% of the population falls into the category of wanting to go to the doctor's office when the appropriate course of action is to get some over the counter medicine and wait a day or two.

Office visits are trivial expenses, and ten per cent is still very much a minority. You would not (I think) suggest that the 10% of the population that can't drink responsibly are reason to return to Prohibition. And I think you'll find that behind most of this 10% (apart from the true hypochondriacs) is one of two things: A) they are lonely and possibly old and visiting the doctor is a chnace for human contact or B) they hate their job and want an excuse to take time off (and maybe need a doctor's excuse for any and every sick day taken). That sort of thing won't run up the healthcare tab very much-- it does take up valuable time and incovenience people who really do to see the doctor, but that's another issue entirely.
So yes, I consider the argument that MOST (=vast majority of us) people do not overconsume healthcare willingly to be a valid point.

Another crucial element to the flawed "managed" care system can be found in my corner of the healthcare world, mental health services. For-profit insurance agencies approach to mental health services (beyond having your PCP prescribe you an antidepressant or a benzodiazapine) will make 10 out of 10 therapists cringe. Lack of coverage of counseling services, or payment for an arbitrary number of counseling sessions under a manualized treatment modality, is typically the name of the game. This, of course, is ultimately counterproductive in terms of dollars and cents as a result of prevention vs. intervention, as you referenced in the post. However, mental health and managed care is an enormous systemic problem. If we factor in mental health services, I think you have oversimplified the issue by saying that people are uncomfortable being told "no" by a for-profit organization. The general public's overwhelming lack of education on prevention and treatment options is a by-product of a managed care system that asks impossible questions of the practitioners and relies on big pharma's drug studies as the gold standard for determining what treatment they will say "yes" to.

Office visits are trivial expenses, and ten per cent is still very much a minority.

1. Office visits aren't all that trivial an expense.

2. Tests done to convince people that they aren't sick are definitely not a trivial expense.

3. A significant minority like 10% (very much an ex rectum number) of people changing their health care behavior at the margin is a huge difference.

4. You didn't even start to address the other point, which is that while (most) people who aren't sick don't go out and consume health care for no reason, lots of people who are sick are very interested in overconsuming healthcare (ie, well beyond the point of it making sense to treat them).

If someone wants to argue that, yes, people will overconsume healthcare, but the negative effect of that is small enough to be overwhelmed by J. Random Other Positive Factors, that's fine with me. Dismissing it as though it were some crazy fantasy, as Ezra and Matt routinely do, is dishonest and stupid.

I dunno about you, but I have a fixed budget (if you don't, do you mind sending me some money? ;) ). My insurance company also has a fixed budget, more or less. Actually, the federal government (which can, in theory if worse comes to worse, inflate itself out of any debt ... although that would be disastrous) is pretty much the only entity without a fixed budget!

Publicly funded health care is limited by political constraints on government budgets. That's why the British and Canadian systems are plagued by rationing and shortages. Privately funded health care can grow to meet the demands of the market. HMOs arose in the 1990s to try and slow the growth of health care costs by imposing some of the same kinds of control on the supply of health care that are imposed by the government in Britain and Canada. But Americans rebelled against the constraints, and HMOs have declined. We prefer to have lots of choice about our health care, even if it comes at a high price.

Hasn't this been shown not be so true after all?

Not that I'm aware of. If you think it has, show me where you think this has been done.

I guess Americans who manage to have top notch insurance get the tests and treatments quicker than Brits and Canadians do,

No, I'm talking about typical or average wait times.

And in America some public employees and agencies are trusted like that -- the military is treated with extraordinary respect and deference, as are firefighters and in some communities the police are.

Perhaps this respect and deference is granted because those three groups risk their lives for the public good? The IRS, not so much.

And in America some public employees and agencies are trusted like that -- the military is treated with extraordinary respect and deference, as are firefighters and in some communities the police are.

Perhaps this respect and deference is granted because those three groups risk their lives for the public good? The IRS, not so much.

Perhaps this respect and deference is granted because those three groups risk their lives for the public good? The IRS, not so much. - guineapigfury

People like to be safe (fire-department) and have folks with powerful guns shoot at trouble makers (especially if said trouble makers are swarthy -- how much do people like the police when the police give out traffic tickets or do something other than shoot at trouble makers?) ... they don't like to pay for it, though. And people also rather like going after the messenger (the IRS, the police giving out traffic tickets).

Re: So it is certainly comparable to housing or food in this respect.

For the vast majority of healthcare services and products there exists no price range of substitutes of which all will serve the purpose just as well. (Even with generic drugs this is true: there is the brand name drug; there is the generic: two choices, not a whole range of possibilities). Unlike housing. Unlike food. Unlike clothing. Unlike transportation. Unlike just about everything in the market-- except those goods we define as public goods, like defense and justice. This is staringly obvious to anyone who has not deliberately blinded himself with the ideological taurine byproduct that passes for "conservatism" today, and I wish you people would stop denying plain facts. You have a right to your opinions certainly-- but you have no right to deny reality and insist the rest of us must follow you in your psychosis. I would have an easier time respecting you if you told me that the Earth was flat, and a mere 6000 years old.

Re: They have departments that receive bonuses for keeping the level of claims paid down.

And now for a tirade against the idiocy of the other side: the above is plain not true. Healthplans do not give bonuses for claims denied. Another urban myth! Rather, they value claims paid accurately. The health admin company I worked for allowed a 2% per month error rate. Any more than that and the claims examiner was fired; and s/he was warned with just a 1% error rate. Denying claims willy-nilly is a fast ticket to the unemployment office for a claims examiner. Moreover since it breeds complaints and disputes and sometimes even legal action, it costs the health plan money to deal with. And indeed, if you look at the details, the vast majority of claim denials are due to paperwork errors, and the claims are eventually paid. Yes, everyone can dredge up an anecdote (much as rightwingers have their little treasure chest of anecdotes about the evils of single payor) but outright and permanent denials of valid, non-fraudulent claims is quite rare.

Re: 1. Office visits aren't all that trivial an expense.

The average office visit to a PCP costs a healthplan $40 or less. Check out an EOB sometime. Compare that with the thousands of dollars that accrue when one is hospitalized, even in-network.

Re: A significant minority like 10% (very much an ex rectum number) of people changing their health care behavior at the margin is a huge difference.

But we shouldn't let that 10% make our decisoions for us any more than the 10% of problem drinkers should force the rest of us to give up the right to drink responsibly. You can't and shouldn't make one-size-fits-all plans for the interests, or problems, of a minority.

Re: lots of people who are sick are very interested in overconsuming healthcare

Please explain how this works. When I had pneumonia last winter I was content to go to the doctor (an urgent care clinic actually), have a chest X-ray done (their suggestion, not something I insisted on), and receive antibiotics to treat the infection. I didn't demand to be hospitalzied, or have an MRI done, or any such stuff. If the penumonia had persisted, or worsened despite treatment, maybe, yes, something more aggressive would have been needed-- and quite properly so, as a pneumonia that does not respond to treatment is a dangerous condition and requires serious measures. But do you really think that the majority of people who get sick react any differently than I did?

Re: If someone wants to argue that, yes, people will overconsume healthcare, but the negative effect of that is small enough to be overwhelmed by J. Random Other Positive Factors

The small number of people who overconsume healthcare is small enough to be ignored (as a general factor; obnviously specific measures targeted at hypochondriacs is another matter) Moreover I suspect that underconsumption (people who delay getting treatment until their conditions worsen and become very expensive to treat) is a far larger factor. And such delaying is not due mainly to expense, but to simple human nature: people are busy and may not want to take time for the doctor. Also, it's human nature to avoid bad news as long as possible. My mother did this-- assuming she was going through a hard time with menopause when in fact she had a fast-progressing cancer that killed her just two months after eventual diagnosis.

This website has some
http://www.piriketseverler.tr.gg
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One of the ways Mixner demonstrates what a complete fucking moron he is comes when he talks about wait times. Sure, wait times look better if you assume that everyone who gets no care has a zero wait time.

Those of us who aren't dishonest moronic fucking hacks know that's not true. Plenty of Americans have wait times that aren't a mere six months - unless that's when they die.


Comments closed August 14, 2008.

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